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 vipoid wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Do the math to see how they compare with a priest in the squad. That's why.

So, IG need to pay the same price as marines for a crappy power fist, then that cost again to make it functional?

Why can't I just have a functional PF in the first place?

Because the functional PF + priest = more than just functional PF.

On my Chaos Tac squads I usually give the Champion one, just to give the squad a bit more fighting power.

Alcibiades wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Do the math to see how they compare with a priest in the squad. That's why.

So, IG need to pay the same price as marines for a crappy power fist, then that cost again to make it functional?

Why can't I just have a functional PF in the first place?

Because the functional PF + priest = more than just functional PF.

SM sarge with powerfist + Chaplain > than AM sarge with powerfist + priest

AM and SoB aren't the only armies to have characters which allow rerolls to hit on the charge.

 vipoid wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Do the math to see how they compare with a priest in the squad. That's why.

So, IG need to pay the same price as marines for a crappy power fist, then that cost again to make it functional?

Why can't I just have a functional PF in the first place?

They are functional. One of my favourite SoB units is a Canoness with Eviscerator, 2 Priests with Eviscerators and 5 Celestians. With the 2 priests giving Fearless, Hatred, Re-rollable To Wounds and Re-rollable Saving Throws you actually have a pretty tough (Rerollable 3+ Armour Saves, with re-rollable 4++ Invuln saves on the Canoness and Priests) and pretty killy melee unit with plenty of S6 AP2 attacks (S7 on the charge due to Celestian giving Furious Charge with their Act of Faith).

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
They totally depend on the recipient.

Guardsmen sergeants with Powerfists have 2 str 6 attacks.

Thunderwolf cavalry on the otherhand have 4 str 10 attacks, which of course are much more valuable.

You first have to convince your opponent that it's s10 and not s9

If you can take a Thunder Hammer instead, do it. They're the same thing but the hammer has concussion.

If you can get a Power fist holding a Thunder Hammer, do that too. STR 16. instant pin Land Raiders

The final benefit of Thunderhammers is that they are 100% cooler than Power Fists.

Anyone can punch something to death, but beating it with a hammer is the ultimate expression of badassery.

 Matthew wrote:
On my Chaos Tac squads I usually give the Champion one, just to give the squad a bit more fighting power.

Actually, you wouldn't be giving your squad much more fighting power at all. Champion of chaos special rule forces you to make a challenge. Fists are initiative 1. Champions normally dead before he realises where he is.

Power fist have a place for CSM. My Nurgle aspiring champions in CSM squads have used them to great affect. Having T5 helps when you have to make and accept challenges, and in a squad of nurgle marked CSM it's definitely in your favor to get into assaults. You don't usually die in one round of melee, and when it's your turn to hit, it helps. They're really good for melee out of challenges, as you can use them to make sure that whatever you're hitting is going down. They even allow you to tear through armor if you need to. I'd never bother putting them on an IC, though, as it would be a waste of potential.

 GoonBandito wrote:

They are functional. One of my favourite SoB units is a Canoness with Eviscerator, 2 Priests with Eviscerators and 5 Celestians. With the 2 priests giving Fearless, Hatred, Re-rollable To Wounds and Re-rollable Saving Throws you actually have a pretty tough (Rerollable 3+ Armour Saves, with re-rollable 4++ Invuln saves on the Canoness and Priests) and pretty killy melee unit with plenty of S6 AP2 attacks (S7 on the charge due to Celestian giving Furious Charge with their Act of Faith).

Please read what I wrote. I asked why PFs can't be functional without a Priest. You said that they are, and yet your demonstration involves not one but two priests.

I say again, PFs should not require priests to be functional. Make them cheaper and make the priests more expensive. e.g. 15 for the PF, 35 for the priest. Then, you can still have fairly costed PF without also buying a priest. And, the priest is now more reasonably costed for the support abilities he brings to PFs and squads.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The final benefit of Thunderhammers is that they are 100% cooler than Power Fists.

Anyone can punch something to death, but beating it with a hammer is the ultimate expression of badassery.

While I agree with you, there are time to take the fist. Most notably if you are playing crimson/imperial fists! Or any other fist-related chapter.

I personally don’t think it’s worth the 5 points for concussive, but it worth it for looks. Particularly when paired with a lighting claw. Because sometimes you need to press a button.

Since when can a hammer not "press" a button?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But on topic, I just played a game with three squads of raptors vs. DE. I had pretty bad rolls when it can to crack grenades and rear armour and after the third time they didn't wreck the vehicle they charged my mind immediately when to thinking about power fists.

 koooaei wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
They totally depend on the recipient.

Guardsmen sergeants with Powerfists have 2 str 6 attacks.

Thunderwolf cavalry on the otherhand have 4 str 10 attacks, which of course are much more valuable.

You first have to convince your opponent that it's s10 and not s9

Only on units which buy them as an upgrade, TWC themselves have S5 base.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Only on units which buy them as an upgrade, TWC themselves have S5 base.

No, they have wargear which gives them +1S (included on their profile).

As per the rules, doubling modifiers are always done before additions or subtractions. So, with a Thunderhammer, you first double the strength and then add the +1 bonus from the TWC mount.

I actually miss the days before challenges made power fists on sergeants/etc, useless.

nobody wrote:
I actually miss the days before challenges made power fists on sergeants/etc, useless.

To be fair, 5th was too far the other way. A PF sergeant was invincible and untargetable, whilst an IC with a PF could be singled-out by anyone nearby. Hope your T4 character isn't facing off against a PF sergeant...

And, bear in mind, this was before all the nonsense in 6th edition - where T5 and EW were handed out like candy.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 FL5 wrote:
I've been considering fists for when I build my Legion of the Damned sergeants. Since they are almost always going to be deep-striking right next to my opponents' most juicy stuff, they are going to end up in combat. They have WS5, and with a 3++ they at least have a chance to survive the inevitable challenges.

A lot of the lists that I see posted have the minimum 5 LotD troopers with just guns and no close combat upgrades, but with this unit's special rules and their combat role, it seems to me that there's at least a decent chance that fists might not be a bad thing to try with them.

The unit is extremely fragile for their price and generally don't survive past the turn they deep strike and blow something up. Why make them more expensive for something they won't get to use.

Okay, so I've basically got two scenarios:

Scenario 1: 2-3 units of 5-man LotD squads taken as elite choices in a space marine detachment.

I agree that putting fists on these would probably be a waste with 2 squads. These small units would likely get blasted off the table the turn they come in. With 3 units, it's possible one might get into combat. Maybe two. But yeah, it is a stretch.

Scenario 2: 3-4 units of 6-8 man LotD squads taken as a LotD detachment.

Huge point sink, I know. It doesn't leverage LotD's high gun to model ratio like the min squads. But would this kind of saturation get enough wounds on the table to make the inclusion of fists viable? Going with a maximum threat overload kind of in-your-face strike, it might help to have a fist in there.

For Marines a PF is usually an insurance policy, possibly useful but usually not used.

It's more efficient if you want to run 3++ save to run a combat squad TH/SS choice for dedicated CC and non-PF LotD right behind for shooting.

Plus everything can DS.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
They totally depend on the recipient.

Guardsmen sergeants with Powerfists have 2 str 6 attacks.

Thunderwolf cavalry on the otherhand have 4 str 10 attacks, which of course are much more valuable.

You first have to convince your opponent that it's s10 and not s9

Only on units which buy them as an upgrade, TWC themselves have S5 base.

TWC definitely have str 10 with them. And following that logic, an IC with a PF on a thunderwolf should have str 10 too, that's how I play it.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
They totally depend on the recipient.

Guardsmen sergeants with Powerfists have 2 str 6 attacks.

Thunderwolf cavalry on the otherhand have 4 str 10 attacks, which of course are much more valuable.

You first have to convince your opponent that it's s10 and not s9

Only on units which buy them as an upgrade, TWC themselves have S5 base.

TWC definitely have str 10 with them. And following that logic, an IC with a PF on a thunderwolf should have str 10 too, that's how I play it.

That's only how you play it - not how it's supposed to be. Following discussions in YMDC threads on the matter will show that it's not that simple and that most people lean towards s9 as it's a modifier and modifiers are additive.

 koooaei wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
They totally depend on the recipient.

Guardsmen sergeants with Powerfists have 2 str 6 attacks.

Thunderwolf cavalry on the otherhand have 4 str 10 attacks, which of course are much more valuable.

You first have to convince your opponent that it's s10 and not s9

Only on units which buy them as an upgrade, TWC themselves have S5 base.

TWC definitely have str 10 with them. And following that logic, an IC with a PF on a thunderwolf should have str 10 too, that's how I play it.

view that PF
That's only how you play it - not how it's supposed to be. Following discussions in YMDC threads on the matter will show that it's not that simple and that most people lean towards s9 as it's a modifier and modifiers are additive.

I know that's how I play it, but you can't say that's "not how it's supposed to be", as you don't know either.

Now that bikes make a model's toughness +1 for the purpose of instant death despite being wargear, instead of the old 4(5), it seems that wargear that changes a unit's profile is used with multiplicative calculations.

If it was as you were saying, the game designers would have made TWC str 9 wouldn't they.

I'm not looking for anyone else's permission here, and I don't care for YMDC on the issue. Where I play we play logically.

If a space marine in a TWC squad has str 10 with a PF, then a space marine who has a thunderwolf as a piece of wargear would also have str 10.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

If a space marine in a TWC squad has str 10 with a PF, then a space marine who has a thunderwolf as a piece of wargear would also have str 10.

It's just that both TWC and Lord are s9 That's logical. I understand that you want to get a bunch of s10 ap2 stuff and that rules are not clear here and can go both directions making it up to you to homerule it either as s9 or s10. Just wanted to point out that it needs discussion with the one you're gona play against beforehand.

Anywayz, s9 or s10 it's worth it for 25 pts on a well-protected fast-moving squad.

No.

TWC are definitely not str 9. Their profile has str 5, double that and you get 10.

Characters are the only disputable ones.

 vipoid wrote:

nobody wrote:
I actually miss the days before challenges made power fists on sergeants/etc, useless.

To be fair, 5th was too far the other way. A PF sergeant was invincible and untargetable, whilst an IC with a PF could be singled-out by anyone nearby. Hope your T4 character isn't facing off against a PF sergeant...

And, bear in mind, this was before all the nonsense in 6th edition - where T5 and EW were handed out like candy.

Makes me miss my old force weapons which bypassed Eternal Warrior.

That was always a funny "gotcha!" with the DH codex.

 vipoid wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Do the math to see how they compare with a priest in the squad. That's why.

So, IG need to pay the same price as marines for a crappy power fist, then that cost again to make it functional?

Why can't I just have a functional PF in the first place?

They do. S6 Ap2 dishes hurt.

The thing you've got to remember is that not all wargear is always equally useful to everyone, especially when you consider the codex more broadly. An IG powerfist may cost the same as an SM one, despite being -2S, but the SM codex is filled with krak grenades on everything, and can take thunderhammers on units with a 2+/3-5++, and DCCW's, etc. Powerfists are an interesting upgrade for SM, but aren't strictly the most necessary thing, given the other options at their disposal.

Meanwhile, for guard, a S6 Ap2 weapon is a godsend in close combat. Power swords are worthless in their hands at S3, and not everything even has access to krak grenades, much less getting them for free. Meanwhile, what are the other options for guard? Priests are good... when they pass Ld checks, and rough riders and ogryn are... well...

Guard SHOULD pay more for their powerfists, because they're relatively so much better than their other options. Of course, in this case "more" really means "the same", but still...

I will only ever take PFs on Nurgle marked CSM for my lists, simply because if they come across a Loyalist Sergent with a PF he will be str 8 against my T5 and wont double out my FNP roll. Which is all I really care about. At least he wont get a save period.

 Ailaros wrote:

They do. S6 Ap2 dishes hurt.

And S8 AP2 dishes out a lot more hurt for the same cost, and a smaller percentage of the model's base cost.

Look at it this way - A SM Sergeant pays 167% of his base cost for S8 AP2. A Veteran Guardsman pays 400% of his base cost for S6 AP2. Are you really telling me that those are reasonably costed?

 Ailaros wrote:

The thing you've got to remember is that not all wargear is always equally useful to everyone, especially when you consider the codex more broadly. An IG powerfist may cost the same as an SM one, despite being -2S, but the SM codex is filled with krak grenades on everything, and can take thunderhammers on units with a 2+/3-5++, and DCCW's, etc. Powerfists are an interesting upgrade for SM, but aren't strictly the most necessary thing, given the other options at their disposal.

So why cost them the same?

 Ailaros wrote:

Meanwhile, for guard, a S6 Ap2 weapon is a godsend in close combat. Power swords are worthless in their hands at S3, and not everything even has access to krak grenades, much less getting them for free. Meanwhile, what are the other options for guard? Priests are good... when they pass Ld checks, and rough riders and ogryn are... well...

Sorry, but S6 AP2 on a WS3 T3 model is not a godsend. Not even remotely.

 Ailaros wrote:

Guard SHOULD pay more for their powerfists, because they're relatively so much better than their other options. Of course, in this case "more" really means "the same", but still...

I don't follow your logic here.

 Ailaros wrote:


The thing you've got to remember is that not all wargear is always equally useful to everyone, especially when you consider the codex more broadly. An IG powerfist may cost the same as an SM one, despite being -2S, but the SM codex is filled with krak grenades on everything, and can take thunderhammers on units with a 2+/3-5++, and DCCW's, etc. Powerfists are an interesting upgrade for SM, but aren't strictly the most necessary thing, given the other options at their disposal.

Meanwhile, for guard, a S6 Ap2 weapon is a godsend in close combat. Power swords are worthless in their hands at S3, and not everything even has access to krak grenades, much less getting them for free. Meanwhile, what are the other options for guard? Priests are good... when they pass Ld checks, and rough riders and ogryn are... well...

Guard SHOULD pay more for their powerfists, because they're relatively so much better than their other options. Of course, in this case "more" really means "the same", but still...

True. It's the opposite side of the "got plenty of other stuff so might forego this option here". In case of IG, Axes and Fists on sarges are the only mellee weapons that deash ap2 damage. Other than getting a rending psy power off. Ig allready have more firepower than marines. So, it also compensates a bit.

While IG powerfists may be overpriced, do not forget that SM give up I4 and IG give up I3.

It -is- a factor.

Its pretty awesome when you see your termies 2up all the wounds from your enemy then punch them into a fine red mist. Of course this doesn't always happen, but with deep strike it's pretty good.