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The Tau Empire has loads and loads of Railguns - Those loveable, long ranged, high S and low AP weapons. They come in Cheeseburger (36'', S 5, AP 1), Menu (60'', S 8 AP 1) and Supersize Menu (70', S 10, AP 1) sizes outside of Apocalypse, and are, alongside Pulse and Ion weapons, what Tau are known for on the weapon front... But is it just me, or are they being outclassed?

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with them, per say. They are fine for what they are, but why don't we see them more? I mean, the standard Railgun has the highest base S and AP in the game, and a great range to boot, but nobody takes it, or even talks about it (That might have something to do with the Hammerhead, though...). And what about the Heavy Rail Rifles? As far as I know, people only take the HYMP nowadays... And Pathfinders with anti-heavy infantry?...

Is there a problem with the Rail Weapons in general, or are they just outclassed? To my mind, it's a bit of both. Everyone knows how powerful the HYMP is, and the Riptide is superior to the Hammerhead in most respects, so that of course rules out the Rail Weapons as go-to weapons. On the other hand, they tend to be terribly hit-or-miss, literally. If you miss, you miss, nothing happens, and if you hit, you have some chance of taking a Hull Point, and maybe even do a Penetrating hit (which might - MIGHT - make the thing explode), because, let's face it, Railguns are anti-armour.

Do you feel there is a problem to solve, or are they just outclassed by better options? Are the Railguns simply too bare bones? Would it help to give them, say, Armourbane, or maybe even a native +1 when rolling on the Vehicle Damage chart, on top of AP 1?

They need a buff. They need both armourbaneand +1 on the vehicle damage table to be even considered.

Like the heavy bolter, it will be hard to make it a good option without buffing it loads as it is outclassed by so much.

The problem with railguns is that they're mounted on rather expensive platforms, and if the single-shot misses or fails to pen, the whole unit has done nothing for the round.

Although I don't want to suggest Tau become much more powerful I think making the railgun a S D weapon would be a possibility it's still only 1 shot and maybe make the heavy rifles S10. This might help, but I'd be hesitant to make it the rules.
But basically you summed it up they're too hit/miss. The game also favours hull point stripping to explosions so other weapons instantly offer this.

Rail guns are fin in my opinion, weapons like hymp and ion on the tide need to be nurfed in some way (either strength or increase in points) then the railgun will be attractive to take.

The Hammerhead I think is perfectly fine, it's gun is both fearsome and flexible, able to engage heavy armor at long range better than any other weapon in the game, while still being able to toss out a pieplate, and do it relatively cheaply. Relative to something like a Leman Russ Vanquisher, it's far more effective and flexible, and cheaper to boot.

The bigger issue there is that GW has really emphasized using multi-shot midstrength weapons and killing tanks through stripping HP's, and made *actual* heavy AT guns relatively less useful.

This plays much more heavily on the Broadside, where the difference is far more stark than with the Hammerhead between the relative usefulness of the weapons options. I don't think there's a good way to fix the Broadside without giving it far too big a gun than it really should have, I think GW really needs to work on the actual vehicle mechanics...yet again, and resolve some of these issues.

See, here's the issue; before the 6th edition codex broadsides had twin-linked railguns. Not "heavy rail rifles", actual railguns. Not only did that make the hammerhead kind of irrelevant, because they were twin-linked and could be taken in squads that could split fire, but it was kinda ridiculous being able to spam S10 weapons in such large amounts. It was really kind of a crutch, but it was also the only thing keeping Tau relevant at all during 5th edition...you pretty much had to spend almost half your points spamming broadsides to combat the popular MSU builds at the time, and even then it was hard to pull off a win and you mostly played for draws. I personally didn't invest in them and only ever had like two until the new kit came out, so as you can imagine I didn't win a lot during 5th edition.

Now like I said, that was kind of ridiculous and it really needed to be nerfed a bit anyway. It didn't really make sense for the much smaller broadside railgun to be the same strength as the hammerhead railgun in the first place, and being twin-linked made them that much better. You got more shots out of a broadside squad, that were more reliable, and could threaten more targets on the table than a lone hammerhead could, and it didn't cost you that many extra points, either. But here's where GW went wrong, they nerfed the broadsides way too hard and made the heavy rail rifle option utter crap. It's way too weak as a single shot weapon, if they wanted to make it S8 then they needed to make it either two shots, or give broadsides the option to buy an upgrade that gives them Tank Hunters. I dunno, either way it needs something else to make it worthwhile, because as it is it just isn't worth the points. The reason why everyone takes the new HYMP instead is because it actually ends up being a much more effective anti-tank weapon than their fething railgun is! It's S7, but the HRR is only S8 to begin with, so you really aren't losing much there, and you're gaining a hell of a lot more firepower in exchange. Who cares about AP value when you can just strip hull points off of everything? Not only that but you can combine the HYMP with your secondary SMS for anti-infantry duty (I'm not sure if you can fire both at once, I meant more that they just have tons of shots each), and it's a free upgrade to boot, despite being better than the HRR in almost every way. About the only thing a HYMP broadside can't threaten is AV14, and the only other downside I can think of is that the HYMP kinda has a short range compared to the HRR, though that doesn't seem to be much of a problem in-game. It's a no-brainer if you're playing competitively, really.

Personally I don't like how it looks, I always liked the big guns better.

Anyway, you would think that being our last remaining S10 AP1 weapon would make the hammerhead more attractive than it was previously, but if anything it's in an even sorrier state now than it was before. AV14 just isn't that common, and if you really need to deal with it then you can just invest points in some suicide suits with fusion blasters or even some dirt cheap piranhas with fusion blasters if you're mad enough. It just isn't reliable enough, even when it does hit it rarely ever does the damage you need to do. Volume of fire is far more effective and that's what the missilesides provide.

Boniface wrote:
Although I don't want to suggest Tau become much more powerful I think making the railgun a S D weapon would be a possibility it's still only 1 shot and maybe make the heavy rifles S10. This might help, but I'd be hesitant to make it the rules.
But basically you summed it up they're too hit/miss. The game also favours hull point stripping to explosions so other weapons instantly offer this.

That seems good as if Tyranids can spam S10 shots (warpblast) which is also lance then I'm sure that we should be able to do it too.

As for S D for railguns... IoM players get IK with S D CC, so why can't we get them too?

To be fair, Tyranids are limited to very short ranges for their S10 shots, and have to pass a psychic test on top of rolling to hit. They aren't hitting out to 60" or 72" with such firepower.

One of the rumors before the new codex came out was hammerhead railguns causing hits to vehicles in a line, with the strength of the shot maybe weakening as it passed through vehicles. Sounded kinda cool at first, but probably would have slowed the game down resolving all those hits and might have been a tad broken in the end anyway.

Strength D just sounds ridiculous and would essentially be a guaranteed kill, unless you're just really good at rolling 1's consecutively. I don't think it needs to be that good, honestly. Yeah, Knights get Strength D but the catch is they need to get into CC to use it. Ranged D should be a lot rarer in my opinion...

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, Tyranids are limited to very short ranges for their S10 shots, and have to pass a psychic test on top of rolling to hit. They aren't hitting out to 60" or 72" with such firepower.

Agreed with your point here, as well as when they role to hit they don't have marker light support to further buff their anti tank shanagins. Any buffs to the rail head I believe will make an already ubur strong army a bit too much, I thought the argument for taus amount of shots was "we rely on marker support" so IF it got a buff I'd expect markers to be nurfed accordingly (is reduced range, some sort of needing to wound that comfirms target or at least a coversave, and each token reduces -1 to the coversave)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orrrrrr maybe reduce it to s8 but give it the lance special rule?

I think the rail guns are good as is, are nasty against just about anything they hit, and missing the target is an expected risk when firing.

 Cothonian wrote:
I think the rail guns are good as is, are nasty against just about anything they hit, and missing the target is an expected risk when firing.

And yet, I've not seen a broadside that wasnt HYMP and a Hammerhead that wasn't Longstrike in ages(neither in list discussions nor on the table).

Exactly, so rail weapons need a buff.

Make the HRR S9 and make all types lance.

To the guy saying that we have market lights to help us... Essentially all other armies have prescience so does that mean that nothing can be bad? The bolter is often complained about, so can we just say "you have prescience" and leave it at that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Missing the target is not the problem. The problem is that if it does something, it'll only be 1 HP.

SGTPozy wrote:
Exactly, so rail weapons need a buff.

Or the HYMP needs a nerf.

The HRR definitely needs a buff of some kind, though. It's just too weak and ineffectual even before being compared to the HYMP.

How would you nerf the HYMP? It's two missile pods... How could you nerf it without being silly? Just make it a 10 point upgrade.

Exactly, it's two missile pods. A single missile pod costs 15 points, and the HYMP is putting out the same firepower that two of them would while also being twin-linked. I think 25-30 points would be a fair price for that, assuming nothing else changes. Honestly it should probably be more like 35-40 points.

What I'm afraid of though is that it would still be so much better than the HRR that it would still end up being the no-brainer choice even if you have to pay for it.

SGTPozy wrote:
They need a buff. They need both armourbaneand +1 on the vehicle damage table to be even considered.

Like the heavy bolter, it will be hard to make it a good option without buffing it loads as it is outclassed by so much.

If a st10 ap1 weapon had armourbane and +1 damage on the vehicle chart it would explode av14 with 33.3% of its hits. Av13 with 37.5%. Av12 with 44.4%. Av11 with 48.6%. And AV10 with 50%. At 70" range. That would be absolutely ridiculous.

Oh, I like the idea of of S 10, AP 1, Lance. That would not only make sense (The weapons shoots solid bullets, but whatever), and make it very easy to Pen just about anything, and with a bit of luck Insta-death it. At least it might be immobilized, stunned or similar in return

Maybe we should have a look at the HYMP, SMS and such, then. Ignore Cover isn't too much of a problem to me, but maybe we should be looking at the S of these things? I'm also thinking that the indirect fire thing is rather powerful on top of all these things, so, I don't know, they seem a bit too effective. Could it make sense to make the SMS S 4 AP 5 Heavy 4, and the HYMP into S 5 AP 4 Heavy 8?

Seriously... are we going there.

There's a whole 20 odd page thread about nerfing Tau probably 10 down from here.

We don't need this discussion to derail into that.

On the issue of rail. I think the issue is more of a game mechanic thing.

What is the Rail gun was S11? I know it breaks conventions but it would make a difference.

The issue has nothing to do with the rail gun. The Issue my friend is cover saves. Ignore cover needs to come standard on penetration rounds as they blast through the intervening material to their target without issue. Jinks should be allowed as they are an evasive action but standard cover should be ignored by laz cannons and rail guns of the like. It would give these weapons a more defined roll and you would see them more if they could reliably target heavy armor hiding in the back lines.

Boniface wrote:
Seriously... are we going there.

There's a whole 20 odd page thread about nerfing Tau probably 10 down from here.

We don't need this discussion to derail into that.

On the issue of rail. I think the issue is more of a game mechanic thing.

What is the Rail gun was S11? I know it breaks conventions but it would make a difference.

We are going there because this is an whole other part of the discussion about the Tau. The other thread is about nerfing, and not the state of the Railguns specifically. By making this thread, all that talk can go here instead.

as others have posted the railgun's really feel right to me - painful they ignore everyone's armour saves but what are you going to do against a supersonic dart?

the 'ignoring cover markerlight' mechanic does need a look at though, maybe not ignoring the cover completely, just dropping its effectiveness by one or two.

Boniface wrote:
Seriously... are we going there.

There's a whole 20 odd page thread about nerfing Tau probably 10 down from here.

We don't need this discussion to derail into that.

On the issue of rail. I think the issue is more of a game mechanic thing.

What is the Rail gun was S11? I know it breaks conventions but it would make a difference.

Just give it a rule similar to warp spiders weapons. Just rather than I3, say, if the target does not have an initiative value, then the weapon gets +1S (or +1 to armour pen rolls). I know this would mean it doesn't get it against walkers, but then it breaks no game mechanics.

The issue is that Broadsides don't take it anymore since theirs got nerfed, the Hammerhead is still very useful. Give Broadsides back one twin-linked Hammerhead railgun without the submunition round and you'd be fine. (Having a S10/AP1 gun that can choose to be Skyfire or not is pretty potent)

... seriously? a S 10 AP 2 weapon is only single shot and it is a terriable gun because of that?

BrianDavion wrote:

... seriously? a S 10 AP 2 weapon is only single shot and it is a terriable gun because of that?

Railgun is ap1...It's obviously not a bad weapon. It's actually pretty scary if it hits you...just like any melta gun. The vanquisher lemon russ costs much more than the hammer head and has a str 8 melta which is only slightly better vs armor 14 but does not instant kill t5. Ofc were talking about the hammerhead mounted rail gun here. I think it's fine. The real issue is why would you buy anything but a riptide in tau?

Well, if the hammerhead railgun was armorbane and vehicles had access to something that lets them more and fire more guns better, there wouldn't be much of a problem with tau.

As it stands, my tau destroy anything but vehicles.

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

... seriously? a S 10 AP 2 weapon is only single shot and it is a terriable gun because of that?

Railgun is ap1...It's obviously not a bad weapon. It's actually pretty scary if it hits you...just like any melta gun. The vanquisher lemon russ costs much more than the hammer head and has a str 8 melta which is only slightly better vs armor 14 but does not instant kill t5. Ofc were talking about the hammerhead mounted rail gun here. I think it's fine. The real issue is why would you buy anything but a riptide in tau?

Because you want to kill heavy vehicles? And because Riptides are a lot of points in one basket if someone decides to focus them down? Particularly if there are DE on the other side of the table.

I think that the HRR should be RapidFire 48" rather than Heavy 1. Then again I'd prefer seeing slightly mobile broadsides than the very static ones we have now.

No idea how to fix the Rail Rifle, without removing it from pathfinders and changing them around that is.