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Although my main Guard list will be more balanced, I'm trying out a Double Steel Host list just because I find it vaguely amusing, and it'd be something nice to paint after I finish my main Guard set. To really flat out stress test, I've tried it against a battlesuit-based Farsight Enclaves, a Gaunt-Horde based Tyranids, and now I'm trying it out against Jy's pentyrant set up. The problem is, I'm feeling pretty paralyzed on how and where to start the attack:



I want to play as nasty and Tyranid Smart as I can for this, otherwise it isn't a valid test. The Objectives I got aren't going to help -- ETC Relic + Spoils of War Tyranid Objectives (Guard do not have theirs yet) 16 - Secure Objective 6 26 - No Prisoners 22 - Ascendency -- as long as I don't move the infiltrated Lictors, I'll get Ascendency; Guard is going to get 16 since Spoils says they can and I can't discard it when I'm being the Tyranid. No Prisoners is, well, I shoot 'em. Yes, that's helpful, I would never have thought of that. The problem I have is that given the threat range, it will be hard to kill a Russ (and the Annihilator is definitely a threat), and moving in on the Hydra puts me in firing arc for the Exterminators and Paskisher. I know what I'll do on Turn 2; start mawlocing and mucoliding concentrations or maybe a surviving Hydra since I know that Guard-Me will be using them to hold objectives, since the Steel Host spiffy really doesn't help the flak cannon shots and the hull HBs are probably not going to get a lot of LOS. It's just getting out onto the field that is making me grit my teeth.

So, the background. I'm trying ETC rules because that's what the Pentyrants were tested against by Jy against his Necrons, so I want to approximate a similar situation. Relic + Spoils of War were rolled. Guard got to pick deployment-- the Shadowsword and the Hierophant represent table edges, not reserve units. Speaking of reserve, the Eradicator below and the various Tyranid units to the right represent Guard reserve and Tyranid Deepstrike Reserve, respectively; I didn't notice until upload that the third column (one mucolid and two ripper swarms) were cut off, but they're there.

Hive Tyrant Warlord rolled Lone Hunter & Evolving Strategy. The Guard Tank Commander Warlord rolled Grand Strategist, but only got 1 outflanking model; I opted for her formation's eradicator since they'll be mostly used to sweep out deepstrikers and the Malanthrope (plus it gives me more space in DoW's cramped conditions). The Flyrants rolled the following psychic powers from Warlord detachment to detachment 2:

Catalyst, the Horror; Paroxysm, Psychic Scream; Paroxysm, Warp Blast; Paroxysm, Psychic Scream; The Horror, Onslaught.

This is actually a pretty nasty set of rolls-- and a reminder that I'm pretty sure there's something wrong with Vassal's random seed-- since as far as I can tell, the Paroxysms DO hit the tanks, even if The Horror does not. Other examples of the weirdness of the random seed include the Mysterious Objectives rolls; it's sort of hard to tell, but both Tyranid MOs are Target Relay, and both Guard ones are Scatterfield, each having been 'rolled' in sequence. At this point, I half think I should be grabbing my physical dice cubes and rolling RL

From my measurement, the Left Annihilator, Left Eradicator, and the center Hydra are in threat range; the Russes are at least within the "depends on how I move them" egrub range, and the Hydra is both within egrub range and more importantly, probably doesn't have enough LOS blocking for the brainleeches, though camo netting + scatterfield should help.

Army Lists:

Double Steel Host 1850:

Steel Host Formation
Tank Commander Vanquisher with Dozer Blade, Lascannon, Camo Netting 195

Annihilator consort with Dozer Blade, Lascannon, Camo Netting, 160

2x Eradicators with Dozer Blades, heavy bolter sponsons, 290

Exterminator with Dozer Blade 135

Hydra with Camo Netting 85

Steel Host Formation
Pask Punisher with Dozer Blade, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Camo Netting, Heavy Stubber 255

Demolisher Consort with Dozer Blade & Camo Netting 190

2x Exterminators with Dozer Blades, Heavy Bolter Sponsons 310

Leman Russ Annihilator with Dozer Blade, Lascannon, 145

Hydra with Camo Netting 85

The Eradicators are there to help clear potentially charging infantry; with large blasts, 36" range, and Ignores Cover, plus backup from their bolters, I've noticed they definitely compete with Wyverns for clearing infantry (though if I had a choice I'd still take the Wyverns overall, it's just in Host context, they're lervely). The Exterminators are workhorses; between the HBs and their own twin-linked attacks, they have a decent chance of slicing both hordes and anything from fellow tanks to even fliers-- functionally 8 chances to get a hit means I'll probably get a hit, and even on AV 12, I have a 1/3 chance per hit-- well, 1/3 plus 1/3 of 1/6 so 7/18 chance per hit -- to at least glance and there's a chance to pen. AV 13+ tanks are tough, and I can't hit my fellow AV 14s head on, but there are Solutions for that.

The Annihilators and the Commander Vanquishers perform both those roles and long-ranged sniping. While a commander-Annihilator would have quite the chance of getting a shot in, and the Vanquisher Cannon in this context is basically a weaker, less accurate version of the Annihilator's lascannon, I feel that having a 2/3 + 1/9 = 7/9 chance of hitting vehicles with ranged armourbane is worth having it, and I'm testing the overall effectiveness rather than tailoring. The Paskisher is another workhorse. His main gun's rending is UGLY with the formation bonus (which is why he's not the warlord, of course), giving him potentially the shot at glancing AV 14 between the rending effect and his ability to reroll armour pen, but I'm not saying anything new there. The Heavy Stubber + HB sponsons/hull stuff helps him with airborne, though not as much, and of course, with infantry clearing.

I'm of two minds about his consort there; no matter who I pick, there's going to be a lot of Gunners, Kill on Sight! no matter what I do there. The Demolisher's main cannon has the same range as the Punisher, and they share an anti-armour/building role, and in a pinch, the large blast is of course pretty nasty to any Infantry, and Instant Death on T 5 and down. That being said, another Exterminator would share the flexibility; an Executioner would add variety (though I'd have to completely reshuffle points or forgo plasma sponsons), etc. It was a gamewinner against the Tau and a major MVP against the Gaunt Hordes because they just went POP, etc. though, so.

I'm using Jy's nift Flyrants for the opposition:

Primary detachment:

Flyrant - 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers, Egrubs, Fighter Ace (Warlord)
Flyrant - 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers, Egrubs

Lictor
Lictor
Lictor

3x Rippers - Deepstrike
3x Rippers - Deepstrike

Mawloc

Void Shield Generator - 3x Void Shields

Hive Fleet Leviathan detachment:

Flyrant - 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers, Egrubs
Flyrant - 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers, Egrubs
Flyrant - 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers, Egrubs

Malanthrope

1x Mucolid
1x Mucolid
1x Mucolid

And that's where we come in.

I will write a summary of my tactics (from the perspective of the Tyranid player) later when I get off of work.

 jy2 wrote:
I will write a summary of my tactics (from the perspective of the Tyranid player) later when I get off of work.

Thanks, I really appreciate it. Your batreps have really helped me get a handle on the system again - the last time, not counting my vassal self Sims, that I played, my Basilisks and some of the vox dudes, I think, got programs barrages. Also beautiful paint jobs, imo.

As the Tyranid player and assuming the above deployment, this would be my strategy.

If I am going 2nd, then I will have to try to survive all the incoming firepower. With 3 Void Shields and 2+ cover in ruins (or jinking), I think that I can manage that. Worst case scenario is that I lose 1 flyrant. But assuming I survive or if I go 1st, this would be my tactic.

1. Go after 1 flank with all of my flyrants.

2. Psychic powers. Use Onslaught on the furthest flyrant or whichever flyrant I need to to get them into range. Cast Paroxysm on the hydra (or hydras if both are in range). Warp Lance to one of the further tanks (that I don't plan on shooting with egrubs). And of course, Catalyst to my Warlord.

3. Shooting. See if I can maximize the use of the egrubs. Doesn't look like they would be able to hit more than 1 tank initially, thus I will try to focus them on the leman russ that is within reach. Any flyrant out of egrubs range will try to go with devourers to the side of the central tank (looks like a hydra perhaps?).

4. Basically, T1 is more for setting up my flyrants for maximum damage on Turn 2. If I don't do a lot of damage on Turn 1, then that's fine. I have to assume that the Steel Host player is doing his best to minimize the damage of my alpha-strike with his deployment and I am going to assume that my damage will be minimal at best.

5. Try to deny the Punisher his shots. If I am going 2nd, I will actually deploy my flyrants slightly back (just enough so that Pask's tank is out of range with its main gun).

6. On Turn 2 when my reserves come in, I think that I will actually play my lictors more aggressively this turn. Use them to threaten those hydras and tanks with AV10 rear if any. Force my opponent to dedicate resources to take them out. Mawloc will also go after the hydra as its special attack will the side armor AV10.

7. Flyrants then destroy 1 flank and then turn towards the other flank. This turn, I just may have to land some of my flyrants in order to do a U-turn next turn, but I will try to keep that to a minimal. And if I do land some of them, I will try to do so in ruins if at all possible and spread them out.

 jy2 wrote:

As the Tyranid player and assuming the above deployment, this would be my strategy.

If I am going 2nd, then I will have to try to survive all the incoming firepower. With 3 Void Shields and 2+ cover in ruins (or jinking), I think that I can manage that. Worst case scenario is that I lose 1 flyrant. But assuming I survive or if I go 1st, this would be my tactic.

1. Go after 1 flank with all of my flyrants.

2. Psychic powers. Use Onslaught on the furthest flyrant or whichever flyrant I need to to get them into range. Cast Paroxysm on the hydra (or hydras if both are in range). Warp Lance to one of the further tanks (that I don't plan on shooting with egrubs). And of course, Catalyst to my Warlord.

3. Shooting. See if I can maximize the use of the egrubs. Doesn't look like they would be able to hit more than 1 tank initially, thus I will try to focus them on the leman russ that is within reach. Any flyrant out of egrubs range will try to go with devourers to the side of the central tank (looks like a hydra perhaps?).

4. Basically, T1 is more for setting up my flyrants for maximum damage on Turn 2. If I don't do a lot of damage on Turn 1, then that's fine. I have to assume that the Steel Host player is doing his best to minimize the damage of my alpha-strike with his deployment and I am going to assume that my damage will be minimal at best.

5. Try to deny the Punisher his shots. If I am going 2nd, I will actually deploy my flyrants slightly back (just enough so that Pask's tank is out of range with its main gun).

6. On Turn 2 when my reserves come in, I think that I will actually play my lictors more aggressively this turn. Use them to threaten those hydras and tanks with AV10 rear if any. Force my opponent to dedicate resources to take them out. Mawloc will also go after the hydra as its special attack will the side armor AV10.

7. Flyrants then destroy 1 flank and then turn towards the other flank. This turn, I just may have to land some of my flyrants in order to do a U-turn next turn, but I will try to keep that to a minimal. And if I do land some of them, I will try to do so in ruins if at all possible and spread them out.

Flyrants are going first. I'd like to say I'm presuming a worst case scenario, but I recorded, of my simmed games, 47 had the Tyranid or the Tau go first, and 11 had an Imperium one go first (I poked at some SM and Sisters for fun). I am beginning to think Vassal hates Imperium.

Awesome, thanks. I really appreciate it; it's giving me a better sense of possibilities (and helping me figure out good tactics for simming against my "official" list). Question, if I may continue to bother you-- would you have deployed the lictors at all, or reserved them for deepstrike? I initially wanted to have them sneaky sneaky, but I couldn't find somewhere that was out of LOS enough to deploy them with a reasonable chance of hurting things.

IsawaBrian wrote:

Flyrants are going first. I'd like to say I'm presuming a worst case scenario, but I recorded, of my simmed games, 47 had the Tyranid or the Tau go first, and 11 had an Imperium one go first (I poked at some SM and Sisters for fun). I am beginning to think Vassal hates Imperium.

Awesome, thanks. I really appreciate it; it's giving me a better sense of possibilities (and helping me figure out good tactics for simming against my "official" list). Question, if I may continue to bother you-- would you have deployed the lictors at all, or reserved them for deepstrike? I initially wanted to have them sneaky sneaky, but I couldn't find somewhere that was out of LOS enough to deploy them with a reasonable chance of hurting things.

I rarely ever deploy my lictors. That is because I often employ a denial strategy. There are no soft targets or easy First Blood for my opponent. Thus, no squishy units deploy on the table. Sure I may give up a couple of early Maelstrom objectives, but I am playing for the long haul. Lictors will get those Maelstrom points back later by dropping in on Maelstrom objectives then. More importantly, oftentimes, I use them as part of my offense and as sacrificial units to draw fire away from my flyrants. Because the longer your flyrants live, the more damage they would do.

This is actually kind of a cool idea. It's almost like playing chess remotely with Jy2.

I should do something like this in the future too

I think I can get battle scribe to generate something like this in the future too.

Looking forwards to it.

 sudojoe wrote:
This is actually kind of a cool idea. It's almost like playing chess remotely with Jy2.

I should do something like this in the future too

I think I can get battle scribe to generate something like this in the future too.

Looking forwards to it.

Heh. I haven't played in 20 years. Or painted, and my current sad attempts at a Salamander tac squad show it-- I figured I'd start with blockier figs before going to my Guard-- I wouldn't presume to really play against someone with jy2's experience. My computer crashed and took out the log I was doing in the battle so I'll have to restart; I'm probably going to make a virtue out of necessity and hold the Lictors back as the man suggests. Once I stop getting corrupt file errors from my army saves, anyway. >.< What's Battle Scribe? (Also, Vassal is internet capable; I've just been too shy to actually try to join a room or even look for them)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sudojoe wrote:
This is actually kind of a cool idea. It's almost like playing chess remotely with Jy2.

I should do something like this in the future too

I think I can get battle scribe to generate something like this in the future too.

Looking forwards to it.

I was just thinking, though. Speaking of chess. It might make an interesting thing to do a series of posts a la the old chess game newspaper articles-- you set up a sequence in Dakka, you post the army lists, current score, and a picture from Vassal and see how people would pick things apart. Everything from deployment to "Turn 3, you're behind by 4 points but you have a shot at making a D3 here and .." sort of thing.