Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Lobukia wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Let's remove Ultramarines. Everyone seems to hate them, so why not?

Bite your tongue! We're either the Detroit Lions or the Yankees of 40K. You love to hate us, so better keep us around.

Like its really our fault that you're all tired of us being better than you.

Please. UM are just mad pretty much everyone took their Codex Astartes, said yeah sure, then started doing whatever the hell they want.

Blood Angels. Even the Dark Angles are more distinct.

Before I get started I just wanted to point out something obvious; people are getting way too hung up on the phrase "For the Greater Good". Even from day one, when Tau were supposedly "nicer" and before GW had taken steps to "darken" them up, the phrase always meant for the greater good of the Tau. The Tau always believed that the galaxy was their birthright and they don't really want to share it...if you want to live in their galaxy you do it under their banner, and you bow to the will of the ethereals just like everyone else. Or you can just die.

The only reason they don't kill you first is because it's just more practical not to. In the end life is just another resource to be used and exploited, and it's an awful thing to waste when your growing Empire could always use more workers and soldiers to help fortify and defend your rapidly expanding borders. If you don't cooperate though, then they really aren't that fussed about killing you, just means they have to do a little more work when they take over.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Cry me a river.

Not going to bother reading the rest.

Hey you cant negate all my hard work on that post written at 6am with the ancient phone when sleep deprived, hangovered and additionaly dizzy for various reasons just because I want to see you crying over the fluff section in 8th edition BRB . What kind of a community are you people who get offended or ignore posts.

Sometimes even I realize now and then that some conversations just aren't going to go anywhere. It's painfully obvious what you were doing, and you flat out admitted it was what you were doing just now.

On the topic of trolling, Tau being written out of the game isn't really going to stop me from putting them on the table, either. If it really comes to that then I'm either making my own codex or I'm just going to lazily run "counts as" using the Eldar codex. So everyone whining about how their aesthetic is "out of place" and bitching because they don't like looking at the models, you still won't get what you want even if GW does listen to you. And anyone that refuses to play with me is TFG and probably a WAAC douche that's afraid of losing. Because that's how the 40k community works, play the way I want to or you're doing it wrong (and you're probably also morally inept).

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Im the same btw about my armies though more grimdark because I react with random aggression, hate and negativity.

So do I. I'm taking great pains to try and be nice right now, but I'm half-tempted to just say feth it and let fly since it seems the mods couldn't care less about this trainwreck of a thread.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
I dont even want Tau out anymore, I did at some point where crisis suits minis were their main suits but now new broadsides being awesome and crisis suit commander show that GW will fix the machines and thats enough for me to not be bothered that much. Still hate how their faces look, cant help it and believe me I tried. Other than that they can stay, you cant make 40k into coherent whole all at once anyway.

Personally I think the crisis suits need to mimic the design of the XV9's a lot more. We really needed new crisis suits more than the fething riptide, or the ugly flyer. If you want to remove gak from the game then do me a favor and get rid of the sun shark, first.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
but again their visual aesthetic dont follow.

Neither do Eldar. Not in the least. Yet they're almost universally accepted (the rules not so much) whereas Tau are almost universally reviled.

Eldar dont fit as well as ponytail elves but wraith constructs and some of the infantry make up for it a bit. With Tau you get impression of menacing neither from vehicles/ suits nor their physique. Also eldar art is on average darker I think.

I disagree. First of all, the Fire caste is built just like an average human soldier, so their physique ought to be every bit as "menacing" as any other race with a comparable stat line. They're not significantly taller or smaller as far as I know. Second, if that were really the case then it's questionable whether or not the Imperial Guard really "fit in" because an average human isn't very "menacing" either when compared to some of the other horrors of the galaxy...and even the Imperium's own genetic monsters, for that matter.

Third, exactly how many vehicles in 40k look "menacing", anyway? I've yet to see a single Marine vehicle that I would describe as such. Or IG. Or Eldar. Or Necrons. Orks are just goofy and stupid so they don't really count in any case. Dark Eldar are probably the only faction in the game that have anything I would consider even the least bit threatening as far as appearance goes, and maybe the new Knight when you put that one faceplate on it. Also, I happen to think the hammerhead is pretty damn intimidating. The shape of the vehicle makes it look a lot like it's namesake (sharks are scary, aren't they?), and you have that big-ass gun on top, too. Compared to a predator tank, a Leman Russ, or an Eldar falcon, it's definitely the one that would put the most fear in me...if I hadn't been using them for years and knew how gakky and useless they were in-game, anyway.

As for the battlesuits I think it's been well-established that the crisis suit kit is in dire need of an update. The broadside sure became a lot more intimidating, it wouldn't be hard to do the same for crisis suits one would think.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
But yes eldar barely fit and their fluff is just elves in space. Another reason why I dont care about Tau being removed, they'd have to go together with eldar.

Well at least someone fething agrees with me for once. Sick and tired of people attacking Tau but defending the Eldar aesthetic for things completely unrelated, like their "tragic" fluff or the fact that they've been in since Rogue Trader days (which has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they still look out of place). I don't care how long they've been in the game, they're still elves in space and they don't look "grimdark". We've apparently established several times that all that matters is how the army looks on the table, and like Tau it just isn't "gritty" enough for 40k.

You can't argue for the removal of Tau without throwing Eldar out with them. And that's probably not going to happen.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
They wouldnt stand out on good guys flag ship in star wars.

They wouldn't stand out among the bad guys, either. If anything they'd probably fit in more.

I disagree but if that was so, it would only be because bad guys in star wars look like wimps as well heh.

So what I'm getting from this is that you're not a Star Wars fan. Fine, I know who not to ask for a game of X-Wing then.

As far as the whole "in-your-face" vs. "subtlety" background argument, going to chalk that one up to a difference of opinion. I think there's room for both in 40k, but whatever. Everything is black and white apparently, it has to all be one thing or the other.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
As for Tau, their faces dont look serious, like a race I would treat seriously as threat or sth. I dont know how to explan that to you. They have faces of space Ghandis and while there was nothing wrong with the man, he wouldnt exactly thrive in 40k universe. I can explain to myself that it's smoke and mirrors and insidiously grimdark but Id prefer just to see that just like on almost all other things in the setting. It doesnt mean they have to look like monsters or even as menacing as xcom greys but just loose that characterless sheepish look.

Man, Space Ghandi looks pissed if you ask me.

Again, age seems to be one of the main contributing factors to this. The fire warrior kit is just as old as the crisis suits, and not counting the ethereals (which essentially are Space Ghandi, all calm and collected all the time), you had exactly one helmet-less Tau head with a pretty blank expression before the new pathfinders came out.

There's no reason why Tau faces can't look more menacing , GW just isn't giving us much to work with.

As for the Sisters debate that seems to be happening for some reason in this Tau hate thread, I personally don't give a gak if Sisters get rolled into a new "Inquisition" codex, so long as it's 1) a physical product I can buy, and 2) still entirely possible to run an army of nothing but Sisters. I don't want to see them be reduced to a single "Battle Sisters" box set as a troops choice in the theoretical Inquisition codex.

WTF is grimdark?

The Tau hate is really useless at this point. The army has been in the game for five editions now. Is this really still a thing? I know some people do not like the aesthetic, but some people do. Seriously.. get over it and grow up.

The last thing that GW wants to do is to drop a core army in their flagship game. It would be cutting off their nose to spite their face when they are already bleeding. They might as well go whole hog and just chop off Chaos Space Marines or Orks.

Then again, with their savaging of Lizardmen I would honestly be careful what you wish for. I still have my fingers crossed that Lizarmen will not be squatted in 9th Fantasy, but so far it is not looking good.

 Nightwolf829 wrote:
The Tau hate is really useless at this point. The army has been in the game for five editions now. Is this really still a thing? I know some people do not like the aesthetic, but some people do. Seriously.. get over it and grow up.

The last thing that GW wants to do is to drop a core army in their flagship game. It would be cutting off their nose to spite their face when they are already bleeding. They might as well go whole hog and just chop off Chaos Space Marines or Orks.

Then again, with their savaging of Lizardmen I would honestly be careful what you wish for. I still have my fingers crossed that Lizarmen will not be squatted in 9th Fantasy, but so far it is not looking good.

I'm assuming that the Tau haters are just immature nerd-ragers who can't figure out how to defeat a Riptide.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
WTF is grimdark?

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Grimdark

I'm assuming that the Tau haters are just immature nerd-ragers who can't figure out how to defeat a Riptide.

I know. I also realize that it is not likely to stop, but years of seeing it has made it a pet peeve of mine.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Even from day one, when Tau were supposedly "nicer" and before GW had taken steps to "darken" them up, the phrase always meant for the greater good of the Tau. The Tau always believed that the galaxy was their birthright and they don't really want to share it...if you want to live in their galaxy you do it under their banner, and you bow to the will of the ethereals just like everyone else. Or you can just die.

Exactly. This is the Tau, with exactly the same sense of entitlement and willingness to kill anyone who gets in their way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny

Personally I wouldn't remove any of the factions - I'd look to consolidate some of them - especially the Marines

The lengths that GW are going to make some "special" individual chapters (Dark Angels and Blood Angels in particular ) different in game terms as well as fluff is getting tiresome....... and many of the resulting concepts and models are not at all to my taste - especially the flyers!

I'd rather see the Slann and Lizardmen remerge in 40k than yet another SM Codex.

 Mr Morden wrote:
The lengths that GW are going to make some "special" individual chapters (Dark Angels and Blood Angels in particular ) different in game terms as well as fluff is getting tiresome....... and many of the resulting concepts and models are not at all to my taste - especially the flyers!

I say! How very rude.

Now, if anyone wants me, I'll be in my flying clown shoe.

I went with Imperial Knights because Inquisition wasn't an option. Imperial Knights should be relegated to a Data Slate and not their own Codex.

While I love the idea of having lots of them stomping around the table, it really does hurt the armies that don't have access to a semi decent super heavy to help deal with them.

As for Inquisition I'd like to see them, grey knights, and SoB rolled into one codex and given a death watch option as well.

Noc

Militarum Tempestus.

The units exist in the Guard codex, the fluff is abhorrently bad, all it has is a decent warlord table and worse orders than the regular guard codex.

We would literally lose nothing by not having it, such a wasted opportunity.

I'd also merge all the loyalist MEQ books save Grey Knights. Even Space Wolves, who are fluff-wise non Codex Complaint like the Black Templars are still functionally, in game, normal Space Marines +1 with better scouts, no organic sergeants and their "scouts" use power armour and BP+CCW combo. Give each army a subsection with its unique units/characters and rules (give BT their Vows back). It would have been easier prior to the most recent "MOAR special snowflake marines" releases, but still easily doable. It'd actually result in one codex with decent value.

I'd put Daemons and CSM together, and have the player choose one of three variants of Chaos; Veterans of the Long War; super-powerful traitor legionnaires, like Chaos Grey Knights; all the toys, special rules, small unit sizes, Renegades of the Dark Millenium; current CSMs, but with more loyalist "modern" equipment, and Servants of Warp; few, but mostly psychic/summoning units with heavy daemon presence. Keep Daemons powerful, but have a way to stop them beyond just "shoot them lots and hope they fail enough invulns before they charge"

As for Knights, if the codex was the list Forgeworld put out, it'd be fine. The current two unit codex is an abomination.

As someone who despises Tau, I really want to make a distinction here.


The Tau fluff and rules fit in the game. It's a dystopian society who have their flaws and 'evil' side, it's just based on different ethical issues.

What I dislike Tau for are their anime fan aesthetic. The whole Japanese futuristic look just doesn't suit the Gothic theme of 40K. They look like they belong in Infinity.

If the Tau looked more grim and less like an appeal to manga/anime/whatever-it's-called fans then my severe dislike of them would disappear.

I don't think the Tau should vanish, I think the styling of their models is just wrong and should have been different from the outset.

As for those saying 'get used to the aesthetic and grow up', you're assuming it's immature to dislike a certain aesthetic. You could argue that those who like it and support it are Gundam obsessed and need to grow it. It's a ridiculously ignorant comment to make. It's not a case of maturity but rather comparison of aesthetic to setting. It's like putting Hello Kitty pictures in a museum of Fine Art Many people would object

 Wulfmar wrote:
As someone who despises Tau, I really want to make a distinction here.


The Tau fluff and rules fit in the game. It's a dystopian society who have their flaws and 'evil' side, it's just based on different ethical issues.

What I dislike Tau for are their anime fan aesthetic. The whole Japanese futuristic look just doesn't suit the Gothic theme of 40K. They look like they belong in Infinity.

If the Tau looked more grim and less like an appeal to manga/anime/whatever-it's-called fans then my severe dislike of them would disappear.

I don't think the Tau should vanish, I think the styling of their models is just wrong and should have been different from the outset.

Like I've said though, they're an alien species. They're going to look different. They fit as well as Eldar do, who also look all clean and not-grim. If everything looked the same, the game would be dull. It's already approaching it with every other army being Space Marines. What's wrong with them looking different?

Fair enough if you don't like how they look, but saying they don't fit doesn't make sense to me. It's a big Galaxy. Different species will look different.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Isn't that a bit racist? "I don't like the look of you so you don't belong here"

It's 40k, everyone's racist

Not true. The proper term is specist, not racist. Racism is decidedly dead. No humans care about the color of each others skin when there are nasty aliens trying to kill/eat/torture them.

To badly quote Pratchett : "Black and White live together in harmony and gang up on Green"

I've added to my previous post.

The Eldar look original in concept and I've not seen the styling elsewhere

The Tau look like a Saturday morning TV inspired race.

 Archonate wrote:
For me personally, the desire to remove the Tau is as cliche and dull as playing Space Marines.

As Peregrine said earlier, if you think Tau aren't dark enough, you really don't know the Tau.
The Tau are what the Imperium very much wishes it could be. Despite it's constant efforts, the Imperium has yet to match Tau when it comes to controlling it's people. Tau are able to do this because the Ethereals are far more brutal, and willing to do horrible things... 'for the greater good'. (Do you feel the darkness creeping in yet?) They just cover it up a lot better to avoid all the dissent... Yet another thing the Tau keep a tight reign upon while Imperial leaders fume jealously at what the Tau Ethereals have accomplished.

See, the Imperium doesn't realize that the extreme efficiency of the Tau didn't come about without some very sinister things being done by the Ethereals to their own people. Things that Imperial leaders haven't the balls to do. This is why the Imperium will remain a mess, while wondering how the Tau run such a tight empire.

Having read the Codex, Dataslate, and Farsight Enclaves, I testify that the Tau have some very disturbing things going on behind the curtain. A level of disturbing that few other armies have been able to match. Almost DE levels of disturbing. Just not overtly.

So basically, they are IngSoc. Brutal

Anyway, I voted knights. An army that only has 2 types of models and no army list is no army at all.

 Wulfmar wrote:
I've added to my previous post.

The Eldar look original in concept and I've not seen the styling elsewhere

The Tau look like a Saturday morning TV inspired race.

What you've added doesn't adress my point at all...

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
I've added to my previous post.

The Eldar look original in concept and I've not seen the styling elsewhere

The Tau look like a Saturday morning TV inspired race.

What you've added doesn't adress my point at all...

You're tetchy aren't you?

My comment wasn't specifically to you I had modified my post for anyone who was thinking about, or currently, quoting me. (They could then re-read and edit their posts accordingly

To directly answer your question. Yes, an alien race should look alien. They happen to look like they're Japanese, and unless Japan is alien, then it's just not doing it for me

Eldar look like elves, do they not? Doesn't that make them less alien looking than tau, who are purple with cloven hooves?

 Wulfmar wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
I've added to my previous post.

The Eldar look original in concept and I've not seen the styling elsewhere

The Tau look like a Saturday morning TV inspired race.

What you've added doesn't adress my point at all...

You're tetchy aren't you?
]
My comment wasn't specifically to you I had modified my post for anyone who was thinking or currently quoting me.

To directly answer your question. Yes, an alien race should look alien. They happen to look like they're Japanese, and unless Japan is alien, then it's just not doing it for me

They don't look Japanese. They look inspired by anime slightly yeah. You do know Japan don't really have giant robots right? Sorry to disappoint you.

As said, Eldar are basically Elves, they're no more original or alien than Tau. They even look human. At least the Tau look alien (like the Greys pretty much. That's how I've always seen them).

Inspired by anime only slightly?

The Eldar are based on fantasy Elves as designed and created by Tolkien. They have then been heavily modified for a 40K setting.

Tau are a lazy, direct import from current Japanese cartoons.

 Wulfmar wrote:
They have then been heavily modified for a 40K setting.

What are these heavy modifications you speak off? To me Eldar look and feel almost 100% like high elves in space (FYI I don’t consider this a problem.)

 Wulfmar wrote:
Tau are a lazy, direct import from current Japanese cartoons.

Meh, other than the Riptide I don’t see what else Tau has that links them to anime.

http://www.geocities.ws/rpg_pro/palladium/madox01.htm
http://i.gzn.jp/img/2009/05/28/coolest_anime_robot/ingram_m.jpg

And so on,

Amusingly, if you google 'manga battlesuit' 'anime battlesuit' and so on quite a few Tau (including some disturbing fan art) pops up in between other images

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
They have then been heavily modified for a 40K setting.

What are these heavy modifications you speak off? To me Eldar look and feel almost 100% like high elves in space (FYI I don’t consider this a problem.)

 Wulfmar wrote:
Tau are a lazy, direct import from current Japanese cartoons.

Meh, other than the Riptide I don’t see what else Tau has that links them to anime.

Agreed. I dont even like Anime, but I love Tau, so that's different enough for me. When I look at the Riptide even, I don't think 'Anime' I think 'Tau'. Maybe they started as a bit of an Anime ripoff but they have their own identity now, helped by their excellent background (some of the best thought out, most cohesive background in all of 40k).

I can see the Tau in the first one but Gundam have never looked like Tau to me at all, or vice versa.

Also, even if they are Anime inspired, so? Everything's inspired by something else. Orks=Orcs. Eldar=Elves. Space Marines=Countless places. Tyranids=Geigers Alien. Imperial Guard=WWI/WWII/Vietnam etc.

Nocturus wrote:
As for Inquisition I'd like to see them, grey knights, and SoB rolled into one codex and given a death watch option as well.

And again! People really need to associate Sisters with the Inquisition. They are an army by themselves, and their primary purpose is to fight for the Ecclesiarchy. They are requisitioned by the Inquisition, but so is the Guard!

 Wulfmar wrote:
Tau are a lazy, direct import from current Japanese cartoons.

This calls for picture comparisons!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
Tau are a lazy, direct import from current Japanese cartoons.

This calls for picture comparisons!

This post is a place holder while I compose a response. Please be patient, technically I'm at work and will be updating this piecemeal

 Wulfmar wrote:
Amusingly, if you google 'manga battlesuit' 'anime battlesuit' and so on quite a few Tau (including some disturbing fan art) pops up in between other images

Even if we go with Riptides being inspired by mecha-anime (which it is,) does that make the rest of the Tau anime clones? No it does not. Tau has their own distinct theme and feel to them.
Towering robot-suits only amounts to 1-2% of the Tau arsenal. You would be indefinitely better off comparing Tau to starship troopers (the novel,) than any anime featuring giant mechs.

But battlesuits are only a tiny part of the SST novel?