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Where are the models in the unit after they are removed from the table, but before one of the models is used as a marker for scatter?

SJ

Off the table. They are not on the table (having been removed) and they are not in reserves, as you are never told to put the unit in reserve.

Though the way I usually see it actually played is the first model is moved while the rest of the unit patiently awaits teleportation in their starting location.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Two very different phrases. What does arriving "as specified in the rules for Reserves" even entail? "Moving On From Reserve" paragraph? why would DS Units arrive following those rules?

DS conflicts with "Moving on from Reserve" and therefore replaces the parts it conflicts with. It doesn't conflict with every Reserve rule.

I was asking for what these "not conflicted" Reserves rules are? I do not see them as relevant whatsoever.

rigeld2 wrote:

Or also, explain to me what you mean by: "the rest of the rules for Reserves still stand."? what are these?

Well, for starters, this thread involves one.

If you must roll to arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves (which you've agreed applies, but GoI overrides), how can you "arrive" if you were never in Reserves?
How can the rule possibly apply if the unit is never in Reserves? You've agreed/asserted it applies.

You "arrive" as defined by the rules for GoI: " It then immediately arrives".
No need for any mention of "Reserves". Deep Strike requires you "arrive", GoI specifies you arrive. Closed Loop.

rigeld2 wrote:

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
It's a Deep Striking unit, correct?
It's rolling to arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves, correct? (This step is skipped because of the conflict generated by GoI - namely that you immediately arrive)
Which means that it's arriving from Reserves, correct? If you disagree, please explain how the unit is described as rolling to arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves, but not actually arriving from Reserves.

The underlined is incorrect. You are not reading the phrase properly. I think you missed my intention in the last post:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"

The above does not mean:
[[Roll for]] the arrival (of all Deep Striking units) as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
Where the clause of "rolling a dice" is for the "arrival of the Unit as described in reserves".
That is not the meaning of the phrase. It never relates to "Moving on from Reserve"

"Roll for (the arrival of all Deep Striking units) as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
Is how the phrase works. You are rolling for arrival, just as is described in the Reserves rule.
The phrase refers to "Arriving from Reserve", more specifically, how you roll to arrive.


TL : DR : What is "specified in the rules for Reserves"? Rolling for the arrival. Not "the method of arrival".


Why? because "and then deploy them as follows" is part of the phrase. You don't need specification of how to arrive, it's given to you. The "roll" however, is undefined: What are you rolling? 2D6? 1D10?
By your interpretation we would never know, because only the arrival method "is specified".
With my interpretation, however, we know exactly what to Roll: It is specified in the rules for Reserves. ("roll a D6 for each unit...")

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Where are the models in the unit after they are removed from the table, but before one of the models is used as a marker for scatter?

SJ

Off the Table, as Happyjew says.

Where are the models in the unit after they are removed from the table, but before one of the models disembarks from the Transport?

Both case are left "undefined". For consistency, the answer to both questions would be the same. Also, both situations imply that the Unit is still "in play".

Yes, the models are neither on the table, nor casualties, just like when embarked. They are in fact "Deep Striking (also known as Deep Strike Reserves)". They are not in Reserves, yet may go into On-Going Reserves due to a Mishap. They are not Embarked, yet function similarly to being Embarked. They have not been removed from play, yet are not physically in play (leaving the bulk of the unit on the table while placing one as a marker is not the way the process is described in the rules, so does not count as a valid place where the models go to when directed to remove them from the table).

Per RAW, models that are Deep Striking start off the table, Gate of Infinity requires the models to be removed from the table. No conflict so far.

Per RAW, the unit makes a Reserves roll to arrive by Deep Strike, Gate bypasses this requirement with its "immediately" timing. Still no conflict as the more specific rule trumps the less specific rule per RAW.

Per RAW, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike USR, Gate temporarily grants the Deep Strike USR to the unit via the permission to use the Deep Strike rules to arrive. Without this specific permission, the Deep Strike process could not be used (I.e., you could not Deep Strike without permission to do so). As permission is granted, as is the USR, if only for that single instance of use. No conflict due to permission granting the ability, therefore the ability is present.

Rites of Teleportation does not require a unit to arrive from Reserves, the benefit only requires the NSF unit to arrive via Deep Strike. Gate requires the unit to arrive by Deep Strike. If the unit using Gate is a NSF unit, the requirements to gain the use of Battle Focus upon arrival are met without conflict.

Skies of Fury also requires the disembarking unit to Deep Strike, while the disembarking unit does not necessarily require the Deep Strike USR in order to use the Skies of Fury special rule. Just like in the Gate argument, Skies grants permission to use the Deep Strike rules to arrive on the table, grants permission to bypass any Reserves roll required by Deep Strike, and grants the single use of the Deep Strike USR if the unit does not already have the Deep Strike USR. Unlike Rites, however, Skies is not a benefit, and can cause the elimination of the unit from the game in case of any Mishap. Yet, the requirements for Rites are met if the NSF unit is arriving via Deep Strike when disembarking via Skies of Fury.

In addition, a NSF unit arriving by Drop Pod also triggers Rites due to having arrived via Deep Strike. In all three cases (Gate, Skies, Pod), Rite will be triggered for the arriving NSF unit due to having arrived via Deep Strike.

Please show otherwise, if you feel this is incorrect per RAW.

SJ

The problem is, Gate of Infinity allows the arrival using the rules for Deep Strike, but it never grants the Unit Deep Strike, even temporarily. Rules that grant USR will have specific terminology to do so. I can find examples if you need them.

Secondly, you keep proving how "must have the Deep Strike special rule" is somehow (disagreeably) covered, but you never answer how the Unit follows "They always begin the game in Reserve"?

Lastly, you keep insisting that "arriving by Deep Strike" (Oh look: it's the sub-title from the Deep Strike USR) must mean the Unit is in Deep Strike Reserves, but how does that work for Skies of Fury? The Unit disembarks, enters reserves, and then Deep Strikes?
You need to understand that certain rules allow you to "arrive by Deep Strike". This is completely literal in its meaning: Read the "arriving by Deep Strike" subsection of the Deep Strike USR, and follow those rules.

Rites of Teleportation does not require a unit to arrive from Reserves, the benefit only requires the NSF unit to arrive via Deep Strike. Gate requires the unit to arrive by Deep Strike. If the unit using Gate is a NSF unit, the requirements to gain the use of Battle Focus upon arrival are met without conflict.

As rites only require you arrive by deep strike but not that you be in Deep Strike Reserves, then it would indeed apply, yes. So why is this even an argument?

to further point things out:

if the models affected by GoI must immediately arrive upon casting of the power, they cannot go somewhere else before immediately being put on the table, ie they cannot go to reserves because thats not immediately on the table.

this ontop of GoI never stating it invokes reserves, nor gives permission to go to reserves before the unit immediately arrives on the table.

the 2nd part of rites requires you to "arrive from deepstrike reserve" not "only arrive by deepstrike" to get the run and shoot which is the point of this thread.

arriving using the rules for deepstrike does not mean you are arriving using the rules for deepstrike reserves, as has been pointed out many times in the thread.

additionally in the GK tactical objectives, number 15.

It differentiates gate from being something other than arriving from deepstrike reserve. Therefore plainly in the RAW gate is not arriving from deep strike reserves with this example.

blaktoof wrote:
the 2nd part of rites requires you to "arrive from deepstrike reserve" not "only arrive by deepstrike" to get the run and shoot which is the point of this thread.

arriving using the rules for deepstrike does not mean you are arriving using the rules for deepstrike reserves, as has been pointed out many times in the thread.

Ah, sorry, i stand corrected.

Deep Strike Reserves = Reserves, it's in the RaW. There's no way a Unit with GoI or Skies of Fury goes into Reserves.

No. Deep Strike Reserves = Arrives by Deep Strike.

 Grey Templar wrote:
No. Deep Strike Reserves = Arrives by Deep Strike.

Your statement is correct.

Deep strike reserves, does arrive by deepstrike. As RAW deep strike reserves = you are in reserves, and will be arriving by deep strike.

However

Arriving by deepstrike does not mean you were in deepstrike reserves.

Yes it does.

If Deep Strike Reserves = Arrives by Deep Strike, then Arrives by Deep Strike MUST = Deep Strike Reserves.

If A=B, than B=A. You break the rules of logic and math if you say otherwise.

It specifically says using all the rules. It also tells you to deep strike the unit, thus giving specific permission to ds despite possibly not having the ds usr. Specific rules beat general rules, correct?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes it does.

If Deep Strike Reserves = Arrives by Deep Strike, then Arrives by Deep Strike MUST = Deep Strike Reserves.

If A=B, than B=A. You break the rules of logic and math if you say otherwise.

No, it's not A=B.

It's A is part of B, which does not mean B is part of A...

Arriving by Deep Strike does not mean you were in Deep Strike Reserves. Skies of Fury is for passengers of a Stormraven. Are they in Deep Strike Reserves?
What if the Storm raven started on a Skyshield? were they ever in Deep Strike Reserves?

Actually it is A=B.

The only definition of Deep Strike Reserves is that it = Arriving by Deep Strike. It is not C+B=A. Its explicitly A=B.

Therefore, any unit arriving by deep strike is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves. Deep Strike Reserves has nothing to do with actual Reserves, its just another term for arriving by Deep Strike.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

Is the 'sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve' referring to the whole sentence, or just the part 'arriving by Deep Strike'? It isn't clear if the act of putting something in Reserves for the purpose of Deep Striking is what is 'sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve' or if they mean any instance of 'arriving by Deep Strike' is 'sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve'.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually it is A=B.

The only definition of Deep Strike Reserves is that it = Arriving by Deep Strike. It is not C+B=A. Its explicitly A=B.

Therefore, any unit arriving by deep strike is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves. Deep Strike Reserves has nothing to do with actual Reserves, its just another term for arriving by Deep Strike.

Codex Blood Angels, Drop Pod:
"Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves."

It says that the Tactical Squad is in Deep Strike Reserves. You state that this = arriving by Deep Strike.
Can you explain how you are placing the marines on the table?

If you place 1 marine, and scatter his location, while placing the others around him, I will concede that you are indeed correct.

If you think that they disembark from the drop pod, within 6", they cannot be arriving "by Deep Strike".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zimko wrote:

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

Is the 'sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve' referring to the whole sentence, or just the part 'arriving by Deep Strike'? It isn't clear if the act of putting something in Reserves for the purpose of Deep Striking is what is 'sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve' or if they mean any instance of 'arriving by Deep Strike' is 'sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve'.

The fact that it uses "sometimes" also means that 'Deep Strike Reserve' is probably not even a defined RaW term.... but yay to rules writing

 BlackTalos wrote:
The problem is, Gate of Infinity allows the arrival using the rules for Deep Strike, but it never grants the Unit Deep Strike, even temporarily. Rules that grant USR will have specific terminology to do so. I can find examples if you need them.

One of the interesting effects of a permissive rules set is that permission grants access, even if the access is implied. In this case, in order to Deep Strike a unit must have access to the Deep Strike rules, which are found under the Deep Strike USR. Permission to use the Deep Strike rules = access to the Deep Strike USR = having the Deep Strike USR via the ability that grants permission to use Deep Strike rules. As Gate of Infinity requires the use of the Deep Strike rules, and the Deep Strike rules require the Deep Strike USR, per the rules as written the unit using Gate grants itself the Deep Strike USR briefly for that single use of Gate. Permission to do so is provided by the power.

Deny it all you want, it is RAW.

Secondly, you keep proving how "must have the Deep Strike special rule" is somehow (disagreeably) covered, but you never answer how the Unit follows "They always begin the game in Reserve"?

As a permissive rules set, permission to of something is what allows something to be done within the game. Permission in this case is provided by the portion of the Gate of Infinity power that tells the player to remove the unit from the table. Where are the models at the beginning of the Deep Strike process? The unit is in Deep Strike Reserves, aka Deep Strike. Permission is granted to place the unit into Deep Strike, aka Deep Strike Reserve, before immediately returning the unit to the table via the Deep Strike rules, aka the Deep Strike USR. A permissive rules set requires permission to be granted, and permission is granted through use of the power.

The point is undeniable, as well. RAW = permission grants permission, and permission is granted through the power.

Lastly, you keep insisting that "arriving by Deep Strike" (Oh look: it's the sub-title from the Deep Strike USR) must mean the Unit is in Deep Strike Reserves, but how does that work for Skies of Fury? The Unit disembarks, enters reserves, and then Deep Strikes?
You need to understand that certain rules allow you to "arrive by Deep Strike". This is completely literal in its meaning: Read the "arriving by Deep Strike" subsection of the Deep Strike USR, and follow those rules.

RAW = permission grants permission, and permission is granted through the special rule. Skies of Fury modifies the way a unit can disembark from a Flyer by granting permission to use Deep Strike, which means Deep Strike, aka Deep Strike USR, aka Deep Strike Reserves. Poor writing on GW's part, but RAW is RAW.

Rites of Teleportation does not require a unit to arrive from Reserves, the benefit only requires the NSF unit to arrive via Deep Strike. Gate requires the unit to arrive by Deep Strike. If the unit using Gate is a NSF unit, the requirements to gain the use of Battle Focus upon arrival are met without conflict.

As rites only require you arrive by deep strike but not that you be in Deep Strike Reserves, then it would indeed apply, yes. So why is this even an argument?

Re-read this thread's title.

SJ

so according to the silly A=B stuff

witchfires= shooting attacks

so

shooting attacks = witchfires

therefore I can attempt to deny the witch against lascannons, thanks.

oh wait, that's not how the rules work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
please be careful when you use the term "permissive rules set"

firstly the rules for GoI do not grant permission in any form for the unit to go into reserve. Nothing about reserves is stated, there is no permission for it.

The unit has permission to be removed from the board, and then is required to immediately arrive using the rules for deep strike. There is nothing stating the unit is in reserves, is required to go into reserves, or was in reserves - there is no permission and that part is at this point fabricated. Going into reserves when they are removed is something happening after being removed before they are put on the table, as we are told they are immediately placed then nothing else can be happening after they are taken off the table. And again, there is no statement they are going into reserves, or arriving from deep strike reserves in the rules for GoI. In fact nothing at all about reserves.

further as shown in the tactical objective result '15' the GK codex differentiates "arriving from deep strike reserves" from shunt, and GoI, showing that GoI is not arriving from deep strike reserves, if it were they would not need to state gate as it would be covered under "arriving from deep strike reserves"

nowhere in gate does it state you go to reserves, arrive from deepstrike reserves, or count as arriving from deep strike reserves. Other rules [conjurations] which summon units to the table and they arrive using the rules for deep strike specifically state they count as coming from reserves, because they need that permission there to actually count as coming from reserves.

blaktoof wrote:
so according to the silly A=B stuff

witchfires= shooting attacks

so

shooting attacks = witchfires

therefore I can attempt to deny the witch against lascannons, thanks.

This is great news! I can't wait to start denying all those pesky bolter shots!

Having said that... the rules are written so poorly and require multiple levels of inference and implied permission that these arguments always go in circles. Deep Striking Units are allowed to Disembark from Deep Striking Transports on the turn the Transport Deep Strikes, but the Embarked Deep Striking Unit isn't Deep Striking because it didn't Deep Strike despite being a Deep Striking Unit and coming in from Deep Strike Reserves. Deep Striking Units can Deep Strike without being in Deep Strike Reserves. Deep Striking requires a unit have the Deep Strike Rule. Models without the Deep Strike rule can sometimes Deep Strike. Um... round and round we go!

RAI/HIWPI - The general fluff would seem to indicate that any teleporting/grav chute inserting/demonic materializing/jumping out of an Orca unit is momentarily stunned/getting situated and can't attack the turn it comes into play. I would play that any process that causes a unit to be dematerialized and rematerialized or ejected out of a plane would have the same effect.

 Happyjew wrote:
Off the table. They are not on the table (having been removed) and they are not in reserves, as you are never told to put the unit in reserve.

Though the way I usually see it actually played is the first model is moved while the rest of the unit patiently awaits teleportation in their starting location.

Do you have permission to move non-dead models off of the table and put them anywhere other than reserves?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Off the table. They are not on the table (having been removed) and they are not in reserves, as you are never told to put the unit in reserve.

Though the way I usually see it actually played is the first model is moved while the rest of the unit patiently awaits teleportation in their starting location.

Do you have permission to move non-dead models off of the table and put them anywhere other than reserves?

When embarking on a Transport?

 Kriswall wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Off the table. They are not on the table (having been removed) and they are not in reserves, as you are never told to put the unit in reserve.

Though the way I usually see it actually played is the first model is moved while the rest of the unit patiently awaits teleportation in their starting location.

Do you have permission to move non-dead models off of the table and put them anywhere other than reserves?

When embarking on a Transport?

True, though they're not considered in a transport when removed from the table when they Deep Strike.

Nor were they removed as a casualty

The only place for them to go is Reserves, however briefly, per the rules

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Off the table. They are not on the table (having been removed) and they are not in reserves, as you are never told to put the unit in reserve.

Though the way I usually see it actually played is the first model is moved while the rest of the unit patiently awaits teleportation in their starting location.

Do you have permission to move non-dead models off of the table and put them anywhere other than reserves?

When embarking on a Transport?

True, though they're not considered in a transport when removed from the table when they Deep Strike.

Nor were they removed as a casualty

The only place for them to go is Reserves, however briefly, per the rules

The only place? You're adding that bit yourself. How about... not on the board. From Gate of Infinity... "remove the target and his unit from the board". Where is the target and his unit? The only reasonable answer we can give that is supported by the rules is "not on the board". Saying they're placed in reserves (even for a moment) just isn't supported by the rules. If you just HAVE to have a name for the place they go, it's in the description. They're in the Warp.

We're most definitely NOT told to place them in Reserves. If you truly believe we are, highlight the bit in the GoI rule that tells us explicitly to put the target and its unit in Reserves. I'll post it to make it easier on you. Me? I can't find the word Reserves in there anywhere.

"Gate of Infinity is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Unless the target is Zooming or Swooping, remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."

blaktoof wrote:
so according to the silly A=B stuff

witchfires= shooting attacks

This is demonstrably incorrect. Attempting to exaggerate your opponents arguments like this is the definition of a straw man.

If you must resort to straw man arguments to prove your point, maybe you should rethink your position.

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
so according to the silly A=B stuff

witchfires= shooting attacks

This is demonstrably incorrect. Attempting to exaggerate your opponents arguments like this is the definition of a straw man.

If you must resort to straw man arguments to prove your point, maybe you should rethink your position.

It's supposed to be demonstrably incorrect. The whole point is to show that A is B doesn't always mean B is A. Kind of like how all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

Arriving from Deep Strike Reserves means you're Deep Striking. Deep Striking doesn't necessarily mean you're arriving From Deep Strike Reserves.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
The problem is, Gate of Infinity allows the arrival using the rules for Deep Strike, but it never grants the Unit Deep Strike, even temporarily. Rules that grant USR will have specific terminology to do so. I can find examples if you need them.

One of the interesting effects of a permissive rules set is that permission grants access, even if the access is implied. In this case, in order to Deep Strike a unit must have access to the Deep Strike rules, which are found under the Deep Strike USR. Permission to use the Deep Strike rules = access to the Deep Strike USR = having the Deep Strike USR via the ability that grants permission to use Deep Strike rules. As Gate of Infinity requires the use of the Deep Strike rules, and the Deep Strike rules require the Deep Strike USR, per the rules as written the unit using Gate grants itself the Deep Strike USR briefly for that single use of Gate. Permission to do so is provided by the power.

Deny it all you want, it is RAW.

Secondly, you keep proving how "must have the Deep Strike special rule" is somehow (disagreeably) covered, but you never answer how the Unit follows "They always begin the game in Reserve"?

As a permissive rules set, permission to of something is what allows something to be done within the game. Permission in this case is provided by the portion of the Gate of Infinity power that tells the player to remove the unit from the table. Where are the models at the beginning of the Deep Strike process? The unit is in Deep Strike Reserves, aka Deep Strike. Permission is granted to place the unit into Deep Strike, aka Deep Strike Reserve, before immediately returning the unit to the table via the Deep Strike rules, aka the Deep Strike USR. A permissive rules set requires permission to be granted, and permission is granted through use of the power.

The point is undeniable, as well. RAW = permission grants permission, and permission is granted through the power.

Lastly, you keep insisting that "arriving by Deep Strike" (Oh look: it's the sub-title from the Deep Strike USR) must mean the Unit is in Deep Strike Reserves, but how does that work for Skies of Fury? The Unit disembarks, enters reserves, and then Deep Strikes?
You need to understand that certain rules allow you to "arrive by Deep Strike". This is completely literal in its meaning: Read the "arriving by Deep Strike" subsection of the Deep Strike USR, and follow those rules.

RAW = permission grants permission, and permission is granted through the special rule. Skies of Fury modifies the way a unit can disembark from a Flyer by granting permission to use Deep Strike, which means Deep Strike, aka Deep Strike USR, aka Deep Strike Reserves. Poor writing on GW's part, but RAW is RAW.

Rites of Teleportation does not require a unit to arrive from Reserves, the benefit only requires the NSF unit to arrive via Deep Strike. Gate requires the unit to arrive by Deep Strike. If the unit using Gate is a NSF unit, the requirements to gain the use of Battle Focus upon arrival are met without conflict.

As rites only require you arrive by deep strike but not that you be in Deep Strike Reserves, then it would indeed apply, yes. So why is this even an argument?

Re-read this thread's title.

SJ

Again, you contradict your own logic.

The Deep Strike USR has 2 clauses:
"must have the Deep Strike special rule" and "They always begin the game in Reserve"
You are asserting that you must follow ALL of these rules (IMHO you only need the "arriving by Deep Strike") as per your post:

As Gate of Infinity requires the use of the Deep Strike rules, and the Deep Strike rules require the Deep Strike USR, per the rules as written

I will state again: the Deep Strike rules require they always begin the game in Reserve, per the rules as written.

As a permissive rules set, permission to of something is what allows something to be done within the game. Permission in this case is provided by the portion of the Gate of Infinity power that tells the player to remove the unit from the table. Where are the models at the beginning of the Deep Strike process? The unit is in Deep Strike Reserves, aka Deep Strike. Permission is granted to place the unit into Deep Strike, aka Deep Strike Reserve, before immediately returning the unit to the table via the Deep Strike rules, aka the Deep Strike USR. A permissive rules set requires permission to be granted, and permission is granted through use of the power.

The point is undeniable, as well. RAW = permission grants permission, and permission is granted through the power.

Yes, you have permission to Deep Strike, great. Now answer how you remove the restriction of having to Start the Game in Reserves?
The above does not answer this. Because it is impossible for you to do so.

RAW = permission grants permission, and permission is granted through the special rule. Skies of Fury modifies the way a unit can disembark from a Flyer by granting permission to use Deep Strike, which means Deep Strike, aka Deep Strike USR, aka Deep Strike Reserves. Poor writing on GW's part, but RAW is RAW.

So you ARE asserting that a Unit disembarking from a Stormraven is going into Reserves?
This is a simple Yes/No by the way.

 Kriswall wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
so according to the silly A=B stuff

witchfires= shooting attacks

This is demonstrably incorrect. Attempting to exaggerate your opponents arguments like this is the definition of a straw man.

If you must resort to straw man arguments to prove your point, maybe you should rethink your position.

It's supposed to be demonstrably incorrect. The whole point is to show that A is B doesn't always mean B is A. Kind of like how all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

Arriving from Deep Strike Reserves means you're Deep Striking. Deep Striking doesn't necessarily mean you're arriving From Deep Strike Reserves.

BRB wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

So arrive from Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves, arriving from Deep Strike isn't arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.
I'm confused.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
so according to the silly A=B stuff

witchfires= shooting attacks

This is demonstrably incorrect. Attempting to exaggerate your opponents arguments like this is the definition of a straw man.

If you must resort to straw man arguments to prove your point, maybe you should rethink your position.

It's supposed to be demonstrably incorrect. The whole point is to show that A is B doesn't always mean B is A. Kind of like how all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

Arriving from Deep Strike Reserves means you're Deep Striking. Deep Striking doesn't necessarily mean you're arriving From Deep Strike Reserves.

BRB wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

So arrive from Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves, arriving from Deep Strike isn't arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.
I'm confused.

Relating it to the point at hand:

BRB wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

Arriving from Reserves by Deep Strike means you must have been in Deep Strike Reserve.
Arriving by Deep Strike from a transport, a Gate or a Veil of Darkness does not mean you had to be in Deep Strike Reserve.

As for Jeffersonian, please prove how models disembarking from a Stormraven (demonstrably arriving by Deep Strike) are placed in Reserves (of any kind at this point, it does not matter).

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
so according to the silly A=B stuff

witchfires= shooting attacks

This is demonstrably incorrect. Attempting to exaggerate your opponents arguments like this is the definition of a straw man.

If you must resort to straw man arguments to prove your point, maybe you should rethink your position.

It's supposed to be demonstrably incorrect. The whole point is to show that A is B doesn't always mean B is A. Kind of like how all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

Arriving from Deep Strike Reserves means you're Deep Striking. Deep Striking doesn't necessarily mean you're arriving From Deep Strike Reserves.

BRB wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

So arrive from Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves, arriving from Deep Strike isn't arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.
I'm confused.

Relating it to the point at hand:

BRB wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

Arriving from Reserves by Deep Strike means you must have been in Deep Strike Reserve.
Arriving by Deep Strike from a transport, a Gate or a Veil of Darkness does not mean you had to be in Deep Strike Reserve.

So you agree that rule would apply if they (GoI, VoD, etc) were in Reserves? Just checking. Please just say "Yes" or "No"

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
so according to the silly A=B stuff

witchfires= shooting attacks

This is demonstrably incorrect. Attempting to exaggerate your opponents arguments like this is the definition of a straw man.

If you must resort to straw man arguments to prove your point, maybe you should rethink your position.

It's supposed to be demonstrably incorrect. The whole point is to show that A is B doesn't always mean B is A. Kind of like how all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

Arriving from Deep Strike Reserves means you're Deep Striking. Deep Striking doesn't necessarily mean you're arriving From Deep Strike Reserves.

BRB wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

So arrive from Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves, arriving from Deep Strike isn't arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.
I'm confused.

It's confusing because it's poorly written.

Change your from's to by's and then do this...

A unit placed in Reserves and designated as arriving by Deep Strike is sometimes said to be in Deep Strike Reserves.

A unit arriving by Deep Strike is not necessarily arriving from Reserves.

I suspect when you say "a unit arriving FROM Deep Strike" you mean from Deep Strike Reserves. BY Deep Strike just refers to the actual placement/scatter/etc process. That process doesn't care where the models originate.

 Kriswall wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Off the table. They are not on the table (having been removed) and they are not in reserves, as you are never told to put the unit in reserve.

Though the way I usually see it actually played is the first model is moved while the rest of the unit patiently awaits teleportation in their starting location.

Do you have permission to move non-dead models off of the table and put them anywhere other than reserves?

When embarking on a Transport?

True, though they're not considered in a transport when removed from the table when they Deep Strike.

Nor were they removed as a casualty

The only place for them to go is Reserves, however briefly, per the rules

The only place? You're adding that bit yourself. How about... not on the board. From Gate of Infinity... "remove the target and his unit from the board". Where is the target and his unit? The only reasonable answer we can give that is supported by the rules is "not on the board". Saying they're placed in reserves (even for a moment) just isn't supported by the rules. If you just HAVE to have a name for the place they go, it's in the description. They're in the Warp.

We're most definitely NOT told to place them in Reserves. If you truly believe we are, highlight the bit in the GoI rule that tells us explicitly to put the target and its unit in Reserves. I'll post it to make it easier on you. Me? I can't find the word Reserves in there anywhere.

"Gate of Infinity is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Unless the target is Zooming or Swooping, remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."

That's been covered prior in the thread per the rules for Deep Strike. You cant look at GOI in a vacuum, you have to also look at the rules for Deep STrike