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I would still argue general versus advanced. The GoI rule tells us to remove them from the board and then immediately use the Deep Strike rules to have them arrive.

The Deep Strike rules seem to require placing the models/units in Deep Strike Reserves.

GoI says off the table. DS says Deep Strike Reserves. Advanced versus General. Off the table wins. Off the table =/= Deep Strike Reserves.

 Kriswall wrote:
I would still argue general versus advanced. The GoI rule tells us to remove them from the board and then immediately use the Deep Strike rules to have them arrive.

The Deep Strike rules seem to require placing the models/units in Deep Strike Reserves.

GoI says off the table. DS says Deep Strike Reserves. Advanced versus General. Off the table wins. Off the table =/= Deep Strike Reserves.

Actually, by your argument, Off the Table = Deep Strike Reserves if the unit is returning to the Table via Deep Strike. Off the Table can = On-Going Reserves if not returning via Deep Strike, or if a Mishap occurs during Deep Strike. Off the Tabke also = removed as a casualty.

On Skies of Fury and Reserves, by following the rules as written, an unit embarked on a Zooming or Swooping Transport may disembark via Deep Strike at any point along the line of movement of the Transport. What does this mean? This means the unit disembarking is arriving via Deep Strike, and therefore qualifies for any benefit that require arriving from Deep Strike.

How does the unit bypass the Reservs requirement? Skies of Fury grants implied permission.

How does the unit bypass the roll the arrive? Skies of Fury grants implied permission.

Counts as Deep Strike = Deep Strike.

Uses rules for Deep Strike = Deep Strike.

Deep Strike Reserces = Deep Strike.

Deep Strike (aka, Deep Strike Reserves) =/= Reserves.

Again, GW wrote these rules, and have yet to errata or FAQ any changes. At the moment, arriving by Deep Strike and using the rules for Deep Strike is exactly the same as Deep Striking via the Deep Strike USR.

SJ

The issue is the rule in question requires the unit to be arriving from reserves by deep strike. which the unit is not doing.

off the table does not mean the unit went into reserves.

models embarked in a vehicle are off the table, that does not mean they are now in reserves.

and again, going to reserves means they did not immediately go back to the table.

deep striking does not mean you were in reserves necessarily.

again this also pointed out in the GK codex under tactical objective 15 where Gate is separate from arriving from deepstrike reserves.

Rites of Teleportation does not require the unit to be arriving from Reserves. Rites does require the unit to be arriving by Deep Strike.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Rites of Teleportation does not require the unit to be arriving from Reserves. Rites does require the unit to be arriving by Deep Strike.

SJ

No, RoT requires the unit to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

 Happyjew wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Rites of Teleportation does not require the unit to be arriving from Reserves. Rites does require the unit to be arriving by Deep Strike.

SJ

No, RoT requires the unit to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves.

Please try to keep up.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Rites of Teleportation does not require the unit to be arriving from Reserves. Rites does require the unit to be arriving by Deep Strike.

SJ

No, RoT requires the unit to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves.

Please try to keep up.

SJ

No, deep strike =/= deep strike reserves. Deep Strike Reserves is reserves from which a unit Deep Strikes. Deep Strike is a special rule.

Furthermore, Rites of Teleportation specifically requires the unit to be arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.

You are ignoring explicit rules text. The only definition of Deep Strike Reserves is any unit arriving by Deep Strike. It is the only definition, you cannot argue this.

Your refusal to acknowledge this is extremely odd. Its quite black and white.


Deep Strike Reserves = Arriving by Deep Strike. Arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves.

This is absolute and irrefutable. All you've done is quote rule text which destroys your own argument. Know when to quit, please. It quite tiresome to keep arguing over this point.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You are ignoring explicit rules text. The only definition of Deep Strike Reserves is any unit arriving by Deep Strike. It is the only definition, you cannot argue this.

Your refusal to acknowledge this is extremely odd. Its quite black and white.


Deep Strike Reserves = Arriving by Deep Strike. Arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves.

This is absolute and irrefutable. All you've done is quote rule text which destroys your own argument. Know when to quit, please. It quite tiresome to keep arguing over this point.

When placing a unit is Reserves, you must tell your opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves). So Deep Strike Reserves is 2 things - Reserves (when placing a unit in reserves), and arrival by deep strike (be arriving by Deep Strike).

So in order to place a unit in Deep Strike Reserves, you must fill both criteria - tell your opponent they will arrive by Deep Strike and place them in Reserve. No one has shown any permission to place a unit in Reserve. They just keep spouting "In order to Deep Strike you must be in Reserve but the other requirements don' matter."

Implied permission. You are told to take them oiff the board and deep strike them using ALL the rules for deep strike. So yes, technically you are suppose to do it in the following order...

Harness warp charges for goi
Dtw
Remove gate unit from the board
Notify opponent that they are going into reserves
Notify opponent they will be deep striking
Notify opponent they arrive immediately
(Proceed with rest of deep strike, then psychic phase)

Except as proven, you cannot use all the rules for deep strike, and since it destroys that argument it keeps getting hand waved.

 Happyjew wrote:
Except as proven, you cannot use all the rules for deep strike, and since it destroys that argument it keeps getting hand waved.

Inability to understand the rules does not equal "since it destroys the argument, it keeps getting hand waved".

Per Gate, the unit is removed from the table and returns immediately using the rules for Deep Strike. Per Deep Strike, the unit starts in Reserves (achieved via being removed from the table), rolls to arrive on the following turn (achieved via being directed to arrive immediately), place one model as a marker, roll to scatter, etc.. Nothing gets "hand waved".

SJ

Seriously though, because goi says to deep strike the unit, it implies permission to place that unit into deep strike reserves, despite it not being the right time to place units into reserve.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Except as proven, you cannot use all the rules for deep strike, and since it destroys that argument it keeps getting hand waved.

Inability to understand the rules does not equal "since it destroys the argument, it keeps getting hand waved".

Per Gate, the unit is removed from the table and returns immediately using the rules for Deep Strike. Per Deep Strike, the unit starts in Reserves (achieved via being removed from the table), rolls to arrive on the following turn (achieved via being directed to arrive immediately), place one model as a marker, roll to scatter, etc.. Nothing gets "hand waved".

SJ

And you still have not shown permission to override all models must have the Deep Strike special rule.

No.

It tells you the models are placed using the rules for deep strike. It does not tell you the models count as coming from reserves [see conjuration psychic powers for example..]

further, going to reserves is not immediately being placed on the table.

being removed from the table does not mean the models are in reserves, and nothing in GoI states they go into reserves or count as being in reserves. This is not implied by the rules, it is being made up by some posters in this thread. Not only made up but then the restrictions on the rest of what would be invoked ie units must have deep strike usr, units must have begun game in resreves, etc is then hand waved away with again no actual rules support.

Deep strike does not = deep strike reserves as has been proven in this thread.

being removed from the table does not mean you are in reserves, as has been proven in this thread.

and going from table>remove from play>reserves>back to table breaks the RAW of GoI which requires you to be placed immediately, not immediately from reserved but immediately after being removed from the table.

There are no rules that allow you to go to reserves, and no one has actually put forth a single rules based point that the unit does in fact go to reserves, or counts as arriving from reserves. Claiming "implied" does not make a rule.

 Happyjew wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Except as proven, you cannot use all the rules for deep strike, and since it destroys that argument it keeps getting hand waved.

Inability to understand the rules does not equal "since it destroys the argument, it keeps getting hand waved".

Per Gate, the unit is removed from the table and returns immediately using the rules for Deep Strike. Per Deep Strike, the unit starts in Reserves (achieved via being removed from the table), rolls to arrive on the following turn (achieved via being directed to arrive immediately), place one model as a marker, roll to scatter, etc.. Nothing gets "hand waved".

SJ

And you still have not shown permission to override all models must have the Deep Strike special rule.

Goi tells you to deep strike the unit. Specific is greater than general, codex is greater than brb, goi implies permission to D's w/out the usr by implying that it gives the unit the ds usr. If it wasn't meant to ds none ds units, then it would include a restriction.

Bkaktoof, feel free to reenroll yourself in English 101,where you can figure out how to use a dictionary to look up definitions of words you don't know.

"Using all the rules for deep strike" means "use all the rules for deep strike". It then gives you a few new rules to use in conjunction with those listed rules. Goi telling you to deep strike the unit implies that it gives the unit the ds usr for the duration of the power, which is how non ds units are able to ds with goi, like centurions.

Here's the thing: if we all ran GoI like some of you want, GoI would not work. Yet, when we run GoI is the rules are actually written, then GoI works fine. I've been advocating for using GoI as written, in which it works fine. I've also been advocating for using RoT as written, in which again it works fine. And finally, I've been advocating for using GoI + RoT as written, in which there are no conflicts so therefore it works fine.

Any point you bring up to try and debunk the interaction between GoI and RoT causes failures in the throughout the rule set, yet simply following the rules as written presents no such issue.

Keep arguing all you want, and even feel free to house rule it if that makes you feel better; however, per the rules as written GoI + RoT works just fine.

SJ

siege2142 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Except as proven, you cannot use all the rules for deep strike, and since it destroys that argument it keeps getting hand waved.

Inability to understand the rules does not equal "since it destroys the argument, it keeps getting hand waved".

Per Gate, the unit is removed from the table and returns immediately using the rules for Deep Strike. Per Deep Strike, the unit starts in Reserves (achieved via being removed from the table), rolls to arrive on the following turn (achieved via being directed to arrive immediately), place one model as a marker, roll to scatter, etc.. Nothing gets "hand waved".

SJ

And you still have not shown permission to override all models must have the Deep Strike special rule.

Goi tells you to deep strike the unit. Specific is greater than general, codex is greater than brb, goi implies permission to D's w/out the usr by implying that it gives the unit the ds usr. If it wasn't meant to ds none ds units, then it would include a restriction.

Bkaktoof, feel free to reenroll yourself in English 101,where you can figure out how to use a dictionary to look up definitions of words you don't know.

"Using all the rules for deep strike" means "use all the rules for deep strike". It then gives you a few new rules to use in conjunction with those listed rules. Goi telling you to deep strike the unit implies that it gives the unit the ds usr for the duration of the power, which is how non ds units are able to ds with goi, like centurions.

Implied permission is not RAW permission. If you are claiming that something is RAW, then the rule needs to you know, actually be written.

Except with the rules being a permissive ruleset, it makes it raw.

siege2142 wrote:
Except with the rules being a permissive ruleset, it makes it raw.

No, because RAW means Rules as Written. Since it is not written that the unit gains the Deep Strike rule, there is no permission to give them the Deep Strike rules.

Basic vs advanced, page 13. Basic rules are rules all models have to follow, and advanced rules always override the base rules. Goi is an advanced rule, and as such overrides the basic rule of needing the ds usr.

DS is an advanced rule.

Again, you are claiming RAW, meaning the written rule must exist. Yet you keep stating "implied" permission exists. Meaning it cannot be a written permission.

Which is it?

Psychic powers are more advanced than usrs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They are also more specific.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This specific power is also in the grey knights codex, which overrules the brb

siege2142 wrote:
Psychic powers are more advanced than usrs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They are also more specific.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This specific power is also in the grey knights codex, which overrules the brb

I have to interject, I'm not sure either way on GW's intent on this and I do appreciate both sides including implied permission which is quite often GW believes is express enough, but these assertions your making over this and the other thread are grating on me.

There is no such thing as 'more advanced', and they are only more specific in regards to what they specifically tell you; The rule does not mention giving the DS USR, or that you do not meet the requirements to DS so it is very much NOT specific in that respect and it doesn't mention either of those things.

Again, Codex overrules the BRB in the rules which it is concerned with, it can not 'override' something it never mentions. The rule never mentions skipping the requirements for having to DS, while it may do that I believe the point in the thread has got to this; If you believe the rules do allow you to skip the requirements it means you should also be skipping everything around those rule - including it working in conjunction with GoI&SoF combo, if not your just picking and choosing which bits of the DS rules to apply.

siege2142 wrote:
Psychic powers are more advanced than usrs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They are also more specific.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This specific power is also in the grey knights codex, which overrules the brb

That isnt actually a rule thought. The rule is approximately "advanced overrides basic"

There is no such concept as "more advanced" in the rules
There is no such rule as "codex overrules the BRB"

RoT is not more specific. You can tell this because it does not *specify* that t applies to units outside of the detachment that are in a combined reserves unit with the NSF unit.

So, failed on three accounts there.

siege2142 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Except as proven, you cannot use all the rules for deep strike, and since it destroys that argument it keeps getting hand waved.

Inability to understand the rules does not equal "since it destroys the argument, it keeps getting hand waved".

Per Gate, the unit is removed from the table and returns immediately using the rules for Deep Strike. Per Deep Strike, the unit starts in Reserves (achieved via being removed from the table), rolls to arrive on the following turn (achieved via being directed to arrive immediately), place one model as a marker, roll to scatter, etc.. Nothing gets "hand waved".

SJ

And you still have not shown permission to override all models must have the Deep Strike special rule.

Goi tells you to deep strike the unit. Specific is greater than general, codex is greater than brb, goi implies permission to D's w/out the usr by implying that it gives the unit the ds usr. If it wasn't meant to ds none ds units, then it would include a restriction.

Bkaktoof, feel free to reenroll yourself in English 101,where you can figure out how to use a dictionary to look up definitions of words you don't know.

"Using all the rules for deep strike" means "use all the rules for deep strike". It then gives you a few new rules to use in conjunction with those listed rules. Goi telling you to deep strike the unit implies that it gives the unit the ds usr for the duration of the power, which is how non ds units are able to ds with goi, like centurions.

you should really be careful insulting 'english' skills.

firstly the rule does not say "all the rules for deep strike" it says "using the rules for deep strike" you have added a word there, I believe in this mythical english I should learn adding words to things you quote is considered incorrect.

secondly look up what immediately means.

thirdly figure out if you tells you to use the rules for deep strike, or the rules for arriving by deep strike reserves, or the rules for reserves. Only one of those is stated, bust as you know english better than me maybe you can tell me which one.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

BRB wrote:When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

Arriving from Reserves by Deep Strike means you must have been in Deep Strike Reserve.
Arriving by Deep Strike from a transport, a Gate or a Veil of Darkness does not mean you had to be in Deep Strike Reserve.

So you agree that rule would apply if they (GoI, VoD, etc) were in Reserves? Just checking. Please just say "Yes" or "No"

No, they would not. ("remove the target and his unit from the board")

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I would still argue general versus advanced. The GoI rule tells us to remove them from the board and then immediately use the Deep Strike rules to have them arrive.

The Deep Strike rules seem to require placing the models/units in Deep Strike Reserves.

GoI says off the table. DS says Deep Strike Reserves. Advanced versus General. Off the table wins. Off the table =/= Deep Strike Reserves.

Actually, by your argument, Off the Table = Deep Strike Reserves if the unit is returning to the Table via Deep Strike. Off the Table can = On-Going Reserves if not returning via Deep Strike, or if a Mishap occurs during Deep Strike. Off the Tabke also = removed as a casualty.

Off the table = Off the table, as passengers in transports. Is that part of any of the above? No.
GoI, VoD = Off the Table
=/= Deep Strike Reserves
=/= On-Going Reserves
=/= removed as a casualty

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

On Skies of Fury and Reserves, by following the rules as written, an unit embarked on a Zooming or Swooping Transport may disembark via Deep Strike at any point along the line of movement of the Transport. What does this mean? This means the unit disembarking is arriving via Deep Strike, and therefore qualifies for any benefit that require arriving from Deep Strike.

Agreed, it qualifies for all the rules found in:
"Arriving by Deep Strike"
Done.
No need to get more complicated and add implications that do not exist:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
How does the unit bypass the Reservs requirement? Skies of Fury grants implied permission.

No, where? Point out the actual phrase saying so, (that is not the phrase i have just explained above...)

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

How does the unit bypass the roll the arrive? Skies of Fury grants implied permission.

Agreed.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Counts as Deep Strike = Deep Strike.

Uses rules for Deep Strike = Deep Strike.

Deep Strike Reserves = Deep Strike.

Deep Strike (aka, Deep Strike Reserves) =/= Reserves.

Again, GW wrote these rules, and have yet to errata or FAQ any changes. At the moment, arriving by Deep Strike and using the rules for Deep Strike is exactly the same as Deep Striking via the Deep Strike USR.

SJ

As i have shown many times in this thread and others:
Being in Deep Strike Reserves =/= arriving by Deep Strike. Fact 1
Deep Striking Units =/= Unit arriving by Deep Strike. Fact 2
Reserves = Deep Strike Reserves. RaW: "When placing the unit in Reserve, (...) arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)"

And very lastly, yet again, you fail to answer to most important question "and since it destroys that argument it keeps getting hand waved":
Here is a piece of Deep Strike RaW:

They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike

Have i put enough emphasis on the rule that you cannot possibly be following if you are using ALL the rules for Deep Strike?
Rather than simply accepting that all you need it the rules from:
"Arriving by Deep Strike".
You follow those rules, and that is it. Done, no plot holes, no broken restrictions, no rules breaking (Which your interpretations does.)

Please give me one example of a unit in Deep Strike Reserve that does not arrive by Deep Strike. Just one.

SJ

You are right, it never says all the rules, it just says using the rules for deep strike... Which means we obviously don't use all of them and should pick and choose which ones we want to ignore, instead of using the power to see which ones we ignore.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Please give me one example of a unit in Deep Strike Reserve that does not arrive by Deep Strike. Just one.

SJ

BA Tac Marines in a Drop Pod.

Both units go into Deep Strike Reserves, only the Drop Pod Deep Strikes.