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 Happyjew wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Please give me one example of a unit in Deep Strike Reserve that does not arrive by Deep Strike. Just one.

SJ

BA Tac Marines in a Drop Pod.

Both units go into Deep Strike Reserves, only the Drop Pod Deep Strikes.

Ooooh here we go, this ties into the Purifier/Drop Pod combo... which happens is obviously still being debated in a thread on this same page. Arguably the BA Tac marines HAVE arrived by Deepstrike, not a nebulous off the board undefined zone.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Please give me one example of a unit in Deep Strike Reserve that does not arrive by Deep Strike. Just one.

SJ

BA Tac Marines in a Drop Pod.

Both units go into Deep Strike Reserves, only the Drop Pod Deep Strikes.

Ooooh here we go, this ties into the Purifier/Drop Pod combo... which happens is obviously still being debated in a thread on this same page. Arguably the BA Tac marines HAVE arrived by Deepstrike, not a nebulous off the board undefined zone.

Not really, as that is a different discussion. That is whether or not the Combined Unit rule allows the Pod to come on with the Purifiers. Additionally, while it can be argued, the BA have demonstrably not arrived by Deep Strike, as you follow none of the Deep Strike rules.

 Happyjew wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Please give me one example of a unit in Deep Strike Reserve that does not arrive by Deep Strike. Just one.

SJ

BA Tac Marines in a Drop Pod.

Both units go into Deep Strike Reserves, only the Drop Pod Deep Strikes.

This. Any Unit without the Deep Strike USR embarked upon a Drop Pod.

RaW: "Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves."
This rule clearly defines the Drop pod as being held in Deep Strike Reserves.
This rule clearly defines the Unit embarked as being held in Deep Strike Reserves.

The Pod can and will follow ALL the rules found in "Deep Strike", including starting the game in reserves, etc, but the passengers cannot follow the rules for arriving by Deep Strike as they must disembark only.

 Happyjew wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Please give me one example of a unit in Deep Strike Reserve that does not arrive by Deep Strike. Just one.

SJ

BA Tac Marines in a Drop Pod.

Both units go into Deep Strike Reserves, only the Drop Pod Deep Strikes.

Incorrect. Both units go into Deep Strike Reserves, both units arrive by Deep Strike. Please actually read the rules before responding.

To answer my own question: there are no units that do not arrive by Deep Strike from Deep Strike Reserves, because per RAW Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Please give me one example of a unit in Deep Strike Reserve that does not arrive by Deep Strike. Just one.

SJ

BA Tac Marines in a Drop Pod.

Both units go into Deep Strike Reserves, only the Drop Pod Deep Strikes.

Incorrect. Both units go into Deep Strike Reserves, both units arrive by Deep Strike. Please actually read the rules before responding.

To answer my own question: there are no units that do not arrive by Deep Strike from Deep Strike Reserves, because per RAW Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing.

SJ

Really?

Please explain how the BA Tac Marines are arriving by Deep Strike (Scattering, mishaping, etc...)?
Because clearly they are not.

edited by motyak

The only troll here is you, BlackTalos.

Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reseves = arriving by Deep Strike, per the Deep Strike rules. Your continued ignoring of that fact shows that you are either intentionally trolling this thread, or are lacking in the most basic understanding of language. And since you are able to communicate via writing, then I must conclude that you are being willfully obtuse in order to incite argument. To that sir, I name thee Troll.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reseves = arriving by Deep Strike, per the Deep Strike rules.

No, that is not true, and you have no rules support for that statement either. May i remind you of the Rules of this Forum?

 Lorek wrote:
Tenets of You Make Da Call (YMDC):

1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
- You have to give premises for a conclusive statement; without this, there can be no debate. For more detail on how to actually create a logically supported conclusion, please read this article on how to have an intelligent rules debate.

1a. Don't say that someone is wrong, instead you explain why you think their opinion is wrong. Criticize the opinion, not the person.

1a also applies to you in this very case:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Your continued ignoring of that fact shows that you are either intentionally trolling this thread, or are lacking in the most basic understanding of language. And since you are able to communicate via writing, then I must conclude that you are being willfully obtuse in order to incite argument. To that sir, I name thee Troll.

SJ

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let me follow those exact Tenets and show you how you are completely incorrect:

From the rule-book, two direct quotes:

"Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves."

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.

Two (incontestable) rules:
1) Units embarked upon (Drop Pods) must be held in Deep Strike Reserves.
2) Arriving by Deep Strike: deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table.

The Unit aforementioned in 1, embarked upon the Drop Pod and in Deep Strike Reserves cannot possibly be Arriving by Deep Strike: "First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table"

Thank you for a completely pointless argument, and any further refuting of the above two rules, found as they are in the rulebook, will not be taken notice of.

Guys, the rules are clearly broken.

The very first sentence of the Deep Strike USR (after the fluff) is...

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve."

So... if I'm told to remove a unit from the table and then immediately have it arrive back on the table using the rules for Deep Strike, then that unit had better have started the game in Reserve and all have the Deep Strike USR. If they started on the table or don't have the Deep Strike USR, from a strict rules reading, they are unable to Deep Strike. GoI would remove them from the table and then... ??? Leave them there? They're unable to Deep Strike per the Deep Strike rules.

This is clearly not the intention. The written rules appear broken. Agree with your friends how to play this and...

Might be time to kill this argument. 130+ posts and no consensus? People are pulling the old "learn to read" and "you violated Tenant 1a" things. That's a sure sign of impending Mod lock.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The only troll here is you, BlackTalos.

Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reseves = arriving by Deep Strike, per the Deep Strike rules. Your continued ignoring of that fact shows that you are either intentionally trolling this thread, or are lacking in the most basic understanding of language. And since you are able to communicate via writing, then I must conclude that you are being willfully obtuse in order to incite argument. To that sir, I name thee Troll.

SJ

the above post is incorrect.

Reserves is a separate rule from DS.

there are many ways to arrive onto the table from reserves, and DSing is one of them. So is moving on the board from your deployment edge, so is outflanking.

It is possible to arrive from deep strike reserves, be deep striking, but not "arrive by deep strike" nor have the DS special rule within the [very poorly written] rules.

here are some examples.

There is a squad inside a Drop Pod. The Drop Pod has the DS special rule. The squad does not. The squad has permission to embark inside the drop pod while in reserves. This is known as deep strike reserves, because the pod will be arriving by deep strike and the squad will be in it. Therefore both are in DS reserves.

You roll for the arrival of the combined Pod+Unit embarked with 1 roll, the pod is placed on the table and follows the rules for "arriving by deepstrike". The unit inside is not following those rules, and is not stated anywhere as arriving by deepstrike- therefore only the pod is arriving by deepstrike.

The pod does not mishap and has a final landing spot, the unit inside disembarks.

The unit inside [and the pod] both arrived from deep strike reserves [which is a form of reserves]

only the pod following the rules detailed in "arriving by deep strike" the unit inside did arrive with the pod, and is deep striking- but did not "arrive by deepstrike" [yes the rules in the rulebook are poorly written]

 Kriswall wrote:
Guys, the rules are clearly broken.

The very first sentence of the Deep Strike USR (after the fluff) is...

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve."

So... if I'm told to remove a unit from the table and then immediately have it arrive back on the table using the rules for Deep Strike, then that unit had better have started the game in Reserve and all have the Deep Strike USR. If they started on the table or don't have the Deep Strike USR, from a strict rules reading, they are unable to Deep Strike. GoI would remove them from the table and then... ??? Leave them there? They're unable to Deep Strike per the Deep Strike rules.

In the 10th post in I suggested how these rules work. But trying to explain it when people put their hands on their ears and go "na na na na" really does not help the discussion.
I will try to make it as clear as i can as i know you read and try to understand things logically like i do. With a chance of changing one's mind if the argument is good.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Gate of Infinity allows you to remove a Unit and place it following the rules: "Arriving by Deep Strike"

Was in my very first post.

All of these rules, Veil of Darkness, Gate of Infinity, Skies of Fury, Skyleap?, etc will all have a very similar wording to:
Unit X "arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike" (<GoI)
"deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point." (<SoF)>

Which, IMHO, never state that "the unit must Deep Strike", "follow all the rules for DS", etc. So why is it always inferred that all the Rules from the Deep Strike USR must be followed?
I mean, said unit never actually has Deep Strike right?

So when you arrive/deploy/move/etc by Deep Strike, you follow the rules found under the the actual 'Action' of Deep Striking:

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

And everything included thereafter.

 Kriswall wrote:
Might be time to kill this argument. 130+ posts and no consensus? People are pulling the old "learn to read" and "you violated Tenant 1a" things. That's a sure sign of impending Mod lock.

That's because you're not here having a civilised argument with us, where reason listens to reason and opinions / interpretations are changed with concrete proof and logical support

But i do agree that short of a lock, the opinions are so "basic" that trying to re-invent the (GW) Wheel is hard ! >


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And we can further support this discussion with the new rules for the Veil of darkness:

"The bearer of the Veil of darkness has the Deep Strike special rule. In addition, once per game, (...)immediately arrive anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike"

So, removing yourself and "immediately arrive" by Deep Strike is now In addition to having Deep Strike rules. Could that be because they are a different thing?
I mean if all they needed was to be removed and go into Deep Strike Reserves, would they need to specify arrival "using Deep Strike rules"?

Yes, they would, because he "immediately arrives".

What is the first sentence of the Deep Strike USR?

Pretty sure its something like, "inform your opponent the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike (aka, Deep Strike Reserves)."

But don't take my word for it! Crack open that BRB and see for yourself!

SJ

So when your unit is gating your letting your opponent know the unit is in reserves and arriving by deep strike?

the first sentence however is:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

And you have permission to do that for a unit that doesn't havedeepstrike with goi, because goi says to deep strike them with all the rules for deep striking. There is nothing broken. Just a power giving models the ability to do something they couldn't otherwise do.

it tells you to have them immediately arrive with the rules for deep striking.

regardless the point is it does not tell you they count as coming from/going to reserves, or arriving with the rules from deep strike reserves which is the point of the thread.

models using Gate are not arriving from deep strike reserves.

They are too, because gate specifically tells you to use all the rules for deep striking, then goes on to list specific exceptions to the rule. Not one of those exceptions is not being placed into deep strikereserves., in fact, one of the exceptions makes it blatantly obvious that they have to go into deep strike reserves, because if they didn't, they would have NO WHERE to immediately arrive FROM.

can you please list the exceptions you think it states, as they are stated in the rule for GoI.

as to the second part, you are told to remove them from the table and they immediately arrive [from off the table] using the rules for deep strike.

they would arrive from off the table.

My models embarked in a vehicle are off the table, they are not coming from reserves when they disembark.

blaktoof wrote:
can you please list the exceptions you think it states, as they are stated in the rule for GoI.

as to the second part, you are told to remove them from the table and they immediately arrive [from off the table] using the rules for deep strike.

they would arrive from off the table.

My models embarked in a vehicle are off the table, they are not coming from reserves when they disembark.

Yes but the rules state that if your are placing transports in reserve you must place BOTH the unit and transport in the reserves, and so on with Deep Strike reserves.

Exceptions: arrives immediately, can deep strike despite not having deep strike use (not explicit, but permission is given none the less). More exceptions to come when I have my rulebook.

greytalon666 wrote:
And you have permission to do that for a unit that doesn't havedeepstrike with goi, because goi says to deep strike them with all the rules for deep striking. There is nothing broken. Just a power giving models the ability to do something they couldn't otherwise do.

So i also hope that you can find permission in Gate of Infinity to cover this:

"They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."

you know, something like 'it's okay if they don't start the game in reserves'

 BlackTalos wrote:

greytalon666 wrote:
And you have permission to do that for a unit that doesn't havedeepstrike with goi, because goi says to deep strike them with all the rules for deep striking. There is nothing broken. Just a power giving models the ability to do something they couldn't otherwise do.

So i also hope that you can find permission in Gate of Infinity to cover this:

"They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."

you know, something like 'it's okay if they don't start the game in reserves'

The fact that the power manifests and then requires the Deep Strike means that they don't have to start in Reserves.
Which has been said before, and you've ignored it before, so you'll just ignore this too.

Excellent debating tactics.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

greytalon666 wrote:
And you have permission to do that for a unit that doesn't havedeepstrike with goi, because goi says to deep strike them with all the rules for deep striking. There is nothing broken. Just a power giving models the ability to do something they couldn't otherwise do.

So i also hope that you can find permission in Gate of Infinity to cover this:

"They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."

you know, something like 'it's okay if they don't start the game in reserves'

The fact that the power manifests and then requires the Deep Strike means that they don't have to start in Reserves.
Which has been said before, and you've ignored it before, so you'll just ignore this too.

Excellent debating tactics.

Being 'required' to Deep strike does not, however, allow you to bypass restrictions. At least not without required wording. I am not ignoring your comment, i am debunking it. As i have been doing for a while.

Therefore the interpretation that you only use "Arriving by Deep Strike" from the Deep Strike rules is correct, unless you would like to disprove this?

Gate of infinity: "arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike"
Resolution: Use the rules in "Arriving by Deep Strike".
Problem solved.

No need to bypass "the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule", nor "and the unit must start the game in Reserve", or even "When placing the unit in Reserve".
Because GoI is not even able to in the first place...

"Remove the target from the board, then it immedriatly arrives anywhere using the rules for deep strike".


Seems pretty clear that when it tells you to remove the unit from the board, it is to put them into deep strike reserves. There is no magical "off the board" zone in the game. There is casualties, reserves, deep strike reserves, but no "off the board".

greytalon666 wrote:
"Remove the target from the board, then it immedriatly arrives anywhere using the rules for deep strike".


Seems pretty clear that when it tells you to remove the unit from the board, it is to put them into deep strike reserves. There is no magical "off the board" zone in the game. There is casualties, reserves, deep strike reserves, but no "off the board".

So then where are embarked units?

Furthermore, if it was pretty clear that you put them in Deep Strike Reserves there wouldn't be a 10+ page discussion.

 Happyjew wrote:

greytalon666 wrote:
"Remove the target from the board, then it immedriatly arrives anywhere using the rules for deep strike".


Seems pretty clear that when it tells you to remove the unit from the board, it is to put them into deep strike reserves. There is no magical "off the board" zone in the game. There is casualties, reserves, deep strike reserves, but no "off the board".

So then where are embarked units?

In the transport. We have rules to measure to them. You can't physically put them in the transport, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.

greytalon666 wrote:
"Remove the target from the board, then it immedriatly arrives anywhere using the rules for deep strike".


Seems pretty clear that when it tells you to remove the unit from the board, it is to put them into deep strike reserves. There is no magical "off the board" zone in the game. There is casualties, reserves, deep strike reserves, but no "off the board".

Okay then, next time you decide to embark onto a vehicle, make sure you roll for reserves!

More seriously, there are 3 types of "not on the board:
- Casualties
- Reserves (some of which may be arriving by Deep Strike)
- Off the board (Transports, Fortifications, GoI and other such rules)

The third category is where passengers in a Stormraven are, and come from, upon using the "Skies of Fury" special rule. It is impossible for them to be in any form of Reserves, as "Skies of Fury" does not contain any "removing" wording...

 BlackTalos wrote:
The third category is where passengers in a Stormraven are, and come from, upon using the "Skies of Fury" special rule. It is impossible for them to be in any form of Reserves, as "Skies of Fury" does not contain any "removing" wording...

Incorrect. The passengers in a Stormraven are in the Stormraven. The models aren't on the board but we know the unit is on the board.
Skies of Fury does not involve Reserves because, as you said, they aren't removed from the board.

rigeld2 wrote:
In the transport. We have rules to measure to them. You can't physically put them in the transport, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.

Using the same justification, where are the models using GoI?
"In GoI".
'You can't physically put them in the Gate, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.'

Or was this incorrect then?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
As written, a unit that Gates is in play, is removed from the table while remaining in play, is returned to the table immediately so as not to disrupt play

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
In the transport. We have rules to measure to them. You can't physically put them in the transport, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.

Using the same justification, where are the models using GoI?
"In GoI".
'You can't physically put them in the Gate, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.'

Sure, if you ignore the rest of the rules for GoI.

Or was this incorrect then?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
As written, a unit that Gates is in play, is removed from the table while remaining in play, is returned to the table immediately so as not to disrupt play

Since he's on my ignore list I don't know the context of the statement and refuse to comment further on someone else's argument.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
The third category is where passengers in a Stormraven are, and come from, upon using the "Skies of Fury" special rule. It is impossible for them to be in any form of Reserves, as "Skies of Fury" does not contain any "removing" wording...

Incorrect. The passengers in a Stormraven are in the Stormraven. The models aren't on the board but we know the unit is on the board.
Skies of Fury does not involve Reserves because, as you said, they aren't removed from the board.

So...... "deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point." Does not use any rules from Deep Striking?

I mean the entire point of the "where are they" argument was because we were discussing Deep Strike Reserves, an extension of having to follow the Deep Strike rules.