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2015/01/28 17:50:10
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
BlackTalos wrote: The third category is where passengers in a Stormraven are, and come from, upon using the "Skies of Fury" special rule. It is impossible for them to be in any form of Reserves, as "Skies of Fury" does not contain any "removing" wording...
Incorrect. The passengers in a Stormraven are in the Stormraven. The models aren't on the board but we know the unit is on the board.
Skies of Fury does not involve Reserves because, as you said, they aren't removed from the board.
So...... "deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point." Does not use any rules from Deep Striking?
Is that what I said? Oh... nope, it sure isn't.
I mean the entire point of the "where are they" argument was because we were discussing Deep Strike Reserves, an extension of having to follow the Deep Strike rules.
It's actually because GoI says to remove the unit from the board. Skies of Fury does not. It's almost like I pointed that out explicitly.
Oh - I see that I did. It's underlined in case you missed it.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 17:51:28
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
rigeld2 wrote: In the transport. We have rules to measure to them. You can't physically put them in the transport, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.
Using the same justification, where are the models using GoI?
"In GoI".
'You can't physically put them in the Gate, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.'
Sure, if you ignore the rest of the rules for GoI.
", remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."
That is all i have.
"arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike" and
"deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point." Are completely different methods of arrival then?
jeffersonian000 wrote: As written, a unit that Gates is in play, is removed from the table while remaining in play, is returned to the table immediately so as not to disrupt play
Since he's on my ignore list I don't know the context of the statement and refuse to comment further on someone else's argument.
Sure, sorry, you were kind of working on the same arguments a few pages back.... I though this was a form of agreement.
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
2015/01/28 17:54:09
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
rigeld2 wrote: In the transport. We have rules to measure to them. You can't physically put them in the transport, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.
Using the same justification, where are the models using GoI?
"In GoI".
'You can't physically put them in the Gate, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.'
Sure, if you ignore the rest of the rules for GoI.
", remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."
That is all i have.
"arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike" and
"deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point." Are completely different methods of arrival then?
Not completely different, but they are different.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 18:12:07
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
greytalon666 wrote: Goi tells you to remove the unit from the board, thus making it go into reserves, thus triggering NSF.
Skies of fury does not trigger NSF, because you are never removed from the board.
Please show me a rule that states that removing a unit from the board puts said unit in reserves. In fact you don't even need to quote it, just give me a page number that specifically says something along the lines of "When a unit is removed from the table it is placed in Reserves."
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2015/01/28 18:49:38
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
greytalon666 wrote: Goi tells you to remove the unit from the board, thus making it go into reserves, thus triggering NSF.
Skies of fury does not trigger NSF, because you are never removed from the board.
Please show me a rule that states that removing a unit from the board puts said unit in reserves. In fact you don't even need to quote it, just give me a page number that specifically says something along the lines of "When a unit is removed from the table it is placed in Reserves."
The Deep Strike rules that have been quoted, in this thread, repeatedly.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 19:18:46
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
I'm sorry rigeld, I'm having trouble finding where in the Deep Strike rules it says that if a model is removed from the board place it in reserves. Can you please clarify where in the Deep Strike rule this is stated?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2015/01/28 19:34:39
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
Happyjew wrote: I'm sorry rigeld, I'm having trouble finding where in the Deep Strike rules it says that if a model is removed from the board place it in reserves. Can you please clarify where in the Deep Strike rule this is stated?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
GoI gives permission to ignore the "start the game" requirement (inherent in the fact that it can be cast after the start of the game) but does not conflict with the rest of the rule. Therefore the rest of the rule must apply.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 20:05:38
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
Happyjew wrote: I'm sorry rigeld, I'm having trouble finding where in the Deep Strike rules it says that if a model is removed from the board place it in reserves. Can you please clarify where in the Deep Strike rule this is stated?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
GoI gives permission to ignore the "start the game" requirement (inherent in the fact that it can be cast after the start of the game) but does not conflict with the rest of the rule. Therefore the rest of the rule must apply.
Which does not answer my question.
Where in the rules does it say if you remove a model from the table it goes into reserves?
I'm asking in general, as people are making the claim that models not on the table are either dead or in reserves (which is provably false).
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2015/01/28 20:10:57
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
Happyjew wrote: I'm sorry rigeld, I'm having trouble finding where in the Deep Strike rules it says that if a model is removed from the board place it in reserves. Can you please clarify where in the Deep Strike rule this is stated?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
GoI gives permission to ignore the "start the game" requirement (inherent in the fact that it can be cast after the start of the game) but does not conflict with the rest of the rule. Therefore the rest of the rule must apply.
Which does not answer my question.
Where in the rules does it say if you remove a model from the table it goes into reserves?
I'm asking in general, as people are making the claim that models not on the table are either dead or in reserves (which is provably false).
It's not really provably false. The only place people have come up with it being incorrect is vehicles, which is wrong.
Embarking does not remove the unit from the board - it removes the models from the board.
Spoiler:
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
Emphasis mine. If the unit wasn't on the board, it wouldn't be transported. The unit is provably on the board.
Regardless, your question is impossible to answer as it's too general.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 20:15:29
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
Happyjew wrote: I'm sorry rigeld, I'm having trouble finding where in the Deep Strike rules it says that if a model is removed from the board place it in reserves. Can you please clarify where in the Deep Strike rule this is stated?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
GoI gives permission to ignore the "start the game" requirement (inherent in the fact that it can be cast after the start of the game) but does not conflict with the rest of the rule. Therefore the rest of the rule must apply.
Which does not answer my question.
Where in the rules does it say if you remove a model from the table it goes into reserves?
I'm asking in general, as people are making the claim that models not on the table are either dead or in reserves (which is provably false).
It's not really provably false. The only place people have come up with it being incorrect is vehicles, which is wrong.
Embarking does not remove the unit from the board - it removes the models from the board.
Spoiler:
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
Emphasis mine. If the unit wasn't on the board, it wouldn't be transported. The unit is provably on the board.
Regardless, your question is impossible to answer as it's too general.
Spoiler:
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
So per the rule you quoted, you remove the unit from the table. But you don't remove the unit from the table? Please elaborate. I embark a squad of Tac Marines onto a Rhino. Do I remove the unit from the table, yes or no?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2015/01/28 20:15:52
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
So per the rule you quoted, you remove the unit from the table. But you don't remove the unit from the table? Please elaborate. I embark a squad of Tac Marines onto a Rhino. Do I remove the unit from the table, yes or no?
Yes, but the unit is still on the table. Demonstrably.
Which means that the only thing removed from the table was the models.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 20:36:35
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
Of course the models were removed from the table. Units are composed of models, if you remove the unit, logically you must remove the models. However, since I removed the unit from the table (as per the rules), where are they - casualties, or in reserves, as I have been told that these are the only two options for models removed.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2015/01/28 21:56:04
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
So per the rule you quoted, you remove the unit from the table. But you don't remove the unit from the table? Please elaborate. I embark a squad of Tac Marines onto a Rhino. Do I remove the unit from the table, yes or no?
Yes, but the unit is still on the table. Demonstrably.
Which means that the only thing removed from the table was the models.
The rule explicitly states the unit has been removed from the table. Please explain where they are.
2015/01/28 22:22:17
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
The models have been removed from the board, but the UNIT is still on the board.
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
When you remove a UNIT from play for GoI, it has to go somewhere... Which is reserves, following the rules for deep striking, which is what we have to due to the "following (all) the rules for deep striking".
Note that it doesn't say following "some" of the rules for deep striking. There is no precedence for following "some" of the rules, but not others. There are precedences, however, for the word "all" not being included in wordings, but still having to follow "all" the rules. So, please, show me, page number/paragraph number, where it says that I don't put the models into deep strike reserve when I gate.
2015/01/28 22:24:38
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
greytalon666 wrote: The models have been removed from the board, but the UNIT is still on the board.
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
When you remove a UNIT from play for GoI, it has to go somewhere... Which is reserves, following the rules for deep striking, which is what we have to due to the "following (all) the rules for deep striking".
Note that it doesn't say following "some" of the rules for deep striking. There is no precedence for following "some" of the rules, but not others. There are precedences, however, for the word "all" not being included in wordings, but still having to follow "all" the rules. So, please, show me, page number/paragraph number, where it says that I don't put the models into deep strike reserve when I gate.
First the unit is not on the board as the rules for embarking explicitly say to remove the unit from the table.
Second, if you insist on following all the rules for Deep Strike, then you must follow all the rules which include every model having the deep strike special rule, and the unit starting the game in deep strike reserve.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2015/01/28 22:45:57
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
greytalon666 wrote: The models have been removed from the board, but the UNIT is still on the board.
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
When you remove a UNIT from play for GoI, it has to go somewhere... Which is reserves, following the rules for deep striking, which is what we have to due to the "following (all) the rules for deep striking".
Note that it doesn't say following "some" of the rules for deep striking. There is no precedence for following "some" of the rules, but not others. There are precedences, however, for the word "all" not being included in wordings, but still having to follow "all" the rules. So, please, show me, page number/paragraph number, where it says that I don't put the models into deep strike reserve when I gate.
The "it " in the rule you just quoted? That's the unit. It is, explicitly, NOT on the board.
please, keep ignoring what is plainly written.
2015/01/28 22:59:56
Subject: Re:Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
Note the second half of that statement where it says "note the unit is being transported in the transport". You removed your models when you removed the unit. Now your unit is in the transport, while your models are physically off the table due to the models not fitting physically in the transport.
Congratulations, now you know why we don't have to physically put marines in the rhino's!
Seriously, the unit is still on the board, not off in some magical place.
2015/01/29 09:09:06
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
No, seriously, the unit is, explicitly, OFF THE BOARD. The distinction you are making does not exist in the actual rules.
So now we've proven you can be off the board, but not in reserves, your assertion is debunked.
Note it states "note"? As in make a note that they are being transported? Because the unit isn't actually on the board, as the utterly clear rule you now finally admit exists states?
2015/01/29 12:20:56
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
rigeld2 wrote: In the transport. We have rules to measure to them. You can't physically put them in the transport, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.
Using the same justification, where are the models using GoI? "In GoI". 'You can't physically put them in the Gate, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.'
Sure, if you ignore the rest of the rules for GoI.
", remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."
That is all i have. "arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike" and "deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point." Are completely different methods of arrival then?
Not completely different, but they are different.
But they both relate to the Deep Strike USR, correct? One refers to "arriving" using DS, the other refers to "deploy" using DS, correct?
Could i try to push understanding here one step further , and get you to find both of those in the Deep Strike Rules?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike. Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter. • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit. • Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain. In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc). (Copied from BRB-Digital edition)
Would the above "distinction" between the two terms ("arriving" VS "deploy" using DS) signify these rules are calling out specific sections of the Deep Strike USR? This is the part you will not agree with, but i'm curious as to why? It is logically completely sound.
Happyjew wrote: I'm sorry rigeld, I'm having trouble finding where in the Deep Strike rules it says that if a model is removed from the board place it in reserves. Can you please clarify where in the Deep Strike rule this is stated?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
GoI gives permission to ignore the "start the game" requirement (inherent in the fact that it can be cast after the start of the game) but does not conflict with the rest of the rule. Therefore the rest of the rule must apply.
Which does not answer my question.
Where in the rules does it say if you remove a model from the table it goes into reserves?
I'm asking in general, as people are making the claim that models not on the table are either dead or in reserves (which is provably false).
It's not really provably false. The only place people have come up with it being incorrect is vehicles, which is wrong. Embarking does not remove the unit from the board - it removes the models from the board.
Spoiler:
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
Emphasis mine. If the unit wasn't on the board, it wouldn't be transported. The unit is provably on the board.
Regardless, your question is impossible to answer as it's too general.
As for this one, i think the emphasis was (IMHO) misplaced:
Spoiler:
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
"Making a note", to me, means that it is not actually happening, so you must write it down least you forget (that even though it is not happening, it *should* be that way).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/29 12:21:10
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
2015/01/29 12:49:58
Subject: Re:Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
greytalon666 wrote: Note the second half of that statement where it says "note the unit is being transported in the transport". You removed your models when you removed the unit. Now your unit is in the transport, while your models are physically off the table due to the models not fitting physically in the transport.
Congratulations, now you know why we don't have to physically put marines in the rhino's!
Seriously, the unit is still on the board, not off in some magical place.
The unit most certainly isn't still on the board. It has been removed from the table and placed aside... i.e., aside from the table. The only practical reason to make a note that it is being transported is to avoid confusion with other models that are currently off the table.
But...
If you want to play the "they aren't really off the table" game, I'm up for it. With GoI, the models are really never off the table either. They are removed and immediately (with no intervening time period) placed back in a different location. If there is no period of time between when they are removed and when they are placed back on the table, how could they possibly be off the table? I'm being a little sarcastic here.
Just play it how you want. We're arguing semantics that aren't clearly defined in the rules. I'm seeing multiple instances of "implied permissions" or "implied process steps". Rules implications that aren't written down aren't rules. They are HYWPI.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
Kriswall wrote: Just play it how you want. We're arguing semantics that aren't clearly defined in the rules. I'm seeing multiple instances of "implied permissions" or "implied process steps". Rules implications that aren't written down aren't rules. They are HYWPI.
I'm actually trying to keep my argument fully within the minimum amount of RaW:
Gate of Infinity RaW: "arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike" Skies of Fury RaW: "deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point."
Both of those are calling out the DS Rule, specifically:
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc).
(Copied from BRB-Digital edition)
Conclusion:
Gate of Infinity uses all the rules found in Arriving by Deep Strike Skies of Fury uses all the bullet points in "then deploy them as follows:" (And none of the rules found after "In the Movement phase during which...")
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
2015/01/29 13:51:55
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
Happyjew wrote: Of course the models were removed from the table. Units are composed of models, if you remove the unit, logically you must remove the models. However, since I removed the unit from the table (as per the rules), where are they - casualties, or in reserves, as I have been told that these are the only two options for models removed.
The unit is on the board, embarked in the vehicle, as demonstrated by the fact I can measure to it.
Continuing with your assertion that the unit isn't on the board, how do you measure to something that isn't on the board?
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/29 13:56:49
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
rigeld2 wrote: In the transport. We have rules to measure to them. You can't physically put them in the transport, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.
Using the same justification, where are the models using GoI?
"In GoI".
'You can't physically put them in the Gate, so the only option to have the game continue is to take the models off the board, but the unit is demonstrably on the board.'
Sure, if you ignore the rest of the rules for GoI.
", remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike."
That is all i have.
"arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike" and
"deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point." Are completely different methods of arrival then?
Not completely different, but they are different.
But they both relate to the Deep Strike USR, correct?
One refers to "arriving" using DS, the other refers to "deploy" using DS, correct?
Correct.
Could i try to push understanding here one step further , and get you to find both of those in the Deep Strike Rules?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc).
(Copied from BRB-Digital edition)
Would the above "distinction" between the two terms ("arriving" VS "deploy" using DS) signify these rules are calling out specific sections of the Deep Strike USR?
This is the part you will not agree with, but i'm curious as to why? It is logically completely sound.
You're told how to deploy, specifically - you pointed it out.
Arriving requires rolling for Reserves - explicitly (a fact you've continuously ignored/hand waved). Sure, GoI means you arrive immediately, but arrive immediately from where? The only logical answer, based on the Deep Strike rules is from Reserves. Not some magic limbo that isn't defined in the rules at all and you have to invent.
As for this one, i think the emphasis was (IMHO) misplaced:
Spoiler:
When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported.
"Making a note", to me, means that it is not actually happening, so you must write it down least you forget (that even though it is not happening, it *should* be that way).
The unit isn't actually on the table? So you can't actually measure to it? Funny, the actual rules disagree with you.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/29 14:00:55
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/29 14:02:14
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
greytalon666 wrote: Goi tells you to remove the unit from the board, thus making it go into reserves, thus triggering NSF.
Skies of fury does not trigger NSF, because you are never removed from the board.
it tells you to remove it form the board and immediately have it arrive.
if it is immediately arriving it couldnt go to reserves before, since then it would not be immediately arriving.
secondly it doesnt state to arrive it from deep strike reserves
thirdly it doesnt state it counts as going to reserves
fourthyly being removed from the board does not mean you go into reserves, as being removed from the board means the models are taken off the board and that is all. no other meaning. There is no rules linking being removed from the board with going into reserves.
2015/01/29 14:05:53
Subject: Re:Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
greytalon666 wrote: Note the second half of that statement where it says "note the unit is being transported in the transport". You removed your models when you removed the unit. Now your unit is in the transport, while your models are physically off the table due to the models not fitting physically in the transport.
Congratulations, now you know why we don't have to physically put marines in the rhino's!
Seriously, the unit is still on the board, not off in some magical place.
The unit most certainly isn't still on the board. It has been removed from the table and placed aside... i.e., aside from the table. The only practical reason to make a note that it is being transported is to avoid confusion with other models that are currently off the table.
But...
If you want to play the "they aren't really off the table" game, I'm up for it. With GoI, the models are really never off the table either. They are removed and immediately (with no intervening time period) placed back in a different location. If there is no period of time between when they are removed and when they are placed back on the table, how could they possibly be off the table? I'm being a little sarcastic here.
Just play it how you want. We're arguing semantics that aren't clearly defined in the rules. I'm seeing multiple instances of "implied permissions" or "implied process steps". Rules implications that aren't written down aren't rules. They are HYWPI.
This entire line of argument has no baring on GoI. While GoI does direct the unit to be removed and immediately returned, you don't actually immediately return the entire unit; you are immediately returning the unit via Deep Strike, which follows the steps of the entire unit being in Deep Strike Reserves, one model is placed as a marker and scatters, followed by the remaining models being placed per the Deep Strike rules. In contex, the "immediate" timing effects the return by Deep Strike during that a Psychic phase rather rolling to arrive on the following Turn. Also in contex, "immediate" is not a clause that bypassed the direction to be removed from the table.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
2015/01/29 14:09:42
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
greytalon666 wrote: Goi tells you to remove the unit from the board, thus making it go into reserves, thus triggering NSF.
Skies of fury does not trigger NSF, because you are never removed from the board.
it tells you to remove it form the board and immediately have it arrive.
if it is immediately arriving it couldnt go to reserves before, since then it would not be immediately arriving.
Why? Why can something not immediate arrive from reserves? You've failed to ever cite a single rule proving that, but have made it the cornerstone of your argument.
secondly it doesnt state to arrive it from deep strike reserves
No, the Deep Strike rules that you're required to use do that.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/29 14:09:53
Subject: Gate of Infinity/Skies of Fury + Rites of Teleportation
deep strike does not follow the steps of being in deep strike reserves.
deep strike reserves is a method of entering from reserves by deepstrike.
reserves (not ongoing reserves) are models that did not begin the game deployed on the table as per the RaW under reserves.
I am starting to think many of the players who think deep strike = deep strike reserves haven't actually read the reserves rules and noticed that it is a different special rule that allows some models an alternate way to arrive from reserves if they have certain rules (Outflank, DS, infililtrate)
greytalon666 wrote: Goi tells you to remove the unit from the board, thus making it go into reserves, thus triggering NSF.
Skies of fury does not trigger NSF, because you are never removed from the board.
it tells you to remove it form the board and immediately have it arrive.
if it is immediately arriving it couldnt go to reserves before, since then it would not be immediately arriving.
Why? Why can something not immediate arrive from reserves? You've failed to ever cite a single rule proving that, but have made it the cornerstone of your argument.
secondly it doesnt state to arrive it from deep strike reserves
No, the Deep Strike rules that you're required to use do that.
why? Because it doesnt say it arrives immediately from deep strike reserves, an example of what you want is under the rules for conjuration where it explicitly states "they count as coming from reserves, and arrive by deepstrike"
it says they arrive by deepstrike, which doesn't mean they went to reserves. You have failed to cite a single rule proving they came from deep strike reserves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/29 14:11:07
