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I've never understood this russian doll logic, someones going to have to explain it to me. I mean seriously, do you believe that a Furioso Dreadnought arriving via drop pod is not in fact deep striking?

I might have just missed the arguments but when does the fact the contents themselves deep struck matter?

 Eldarain wrote:
I might have just missed the arguments but when does the fact the contents themselves deep struck matter?

It's mostly because drop pods are completely unnecessary as models. It'd be much easier/cheaper just to deep strike things without those big expensive models getting in the way. I think it's 100% because they were in the fluff and GW decided they wanted to make some money off of them. In terms of gameplay they don't have a substantially different role from just saying "Space Marines may deep strike on turn 1."

 Eldarain wrote:
I might have just missed the arguments but when does the fact the contents themselves deep struck matter?

SM Legion of the Damned

 Byte wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I might have just missed the arguments but when does the fact the contents themselves deep struck matter?

SM Legion of the Damned

Wait this does how?


The primary one would be the BA formation that lets you DS and charge if you drop by two ravens.

 Desubot wrote:

 Byte wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I might have just missed the arguments but when does the fact the contents themselves deep struck matter?

SM Legion of the Damned

Wait this does how?

I see what he's saying. Legion of the Damned have to arrive by Deep Strike. You can buy them a fast attack Drop Pod from an ally. Did they Deep Strike?

 Desubot wrote:

The primary one would be the BA formation that lets you DS and charge if you drop by two ravens.

That one just requires you to arrive from Deep Strike Reserve so shouldn't be an issue.

 Eldarain wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Byte wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I might have just missed the arguments but when does the fact the contents themselves deep struck matter?

SM Legion of the Damned

Wait this does how?

I see what he's saying. Legion of the Damned have to arrive by Deep Strike. You can buy them a fast attack Drop Pod from an ally. Did they Deep Strike?

Ding Ding

Well it's mostly that and people insisting that the whole formation that allows you to assault from Deep Strike does not in fact mean that a Dreadnought that arrives by Drop Pod is deep striking and may assault

Hollismason wrote:
Well it's mostly that and people insisting that the whole formation that allows you to assault from Deep Strike does not in fact mean that a Dreadnought that arrives by Drop Pod is deep striking and may assault

The rule doesn't require you to. The only requirements are arriving from Deep Strike Reserves (Which is where the Dreadnought was along with the pod) and arriving within 12" of two of the models with Teleport Homers.

 TheSilo wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I might have just missed the arguments but when does the fact the contents themselves deep struck matter?

I think it's 100% because they were in the fluff and GW decided they wanted to make some money off of them.

That might work if drop pods hadn't been around since 3rd edition. (I'm pretty sure I don't remember them being in the game in 2nd, but am not sure).

Hollismason wrote:
Well it's mostly that and people insisting that the whole formation that allows you to assault from Deep Strike does not in fact mean that a Dreadnought that arrives by Drop Pod is deep striking and may assault

Units arriving from a drop pod may not assault the turn they arrive. There are several places that mention this.

There is a new blood angels formation that overrides that.

siege2142 wrote:
There is a new blood angels formation that overrides that.

This is true. However, on average it is a no-no

I use csm Dreadclaws that are drop pod assault and those arent even supposed to assault on the same turn they come in. Anyone implying a Normal pod can do it should be stamped a heretic and destroyed.

Yea this post made me make an account after a year lurking

Hollismason wrote:
I've never understood this russian doll logic, someones going to have to explain it to me. I mean seriously, do you believe that a Furioso Dreadnought arriving via drop pod is not in fact deep striking?

If theyre Deep Striking, did you place one model from the *unit* where you wanted the unit to arrive? No? Then how are you deepstriking, if you cannot follow the rules for DSing and do not have an exception to those requirements?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I've never understood this russian doll logic, someones going to have to explain it to me. I mean seriously, do you believe that a Furioso Dreadnought arriving via drop pod is not in fact deep striking?

If theyre Deep Striking, did you place one model from the *unit* where you wanted the unit to arrive? No? Then how are you deepstriking, if you cannot follow the rules for DSing and do not have an exception to those requirements?

This.

A Unit inside a Drop Pod can never be arriving "by Deep Strike".

The Blood angels formation does not require arriving "by Deep Strike" though:

 Eldarain wrote:
The rule doesn't require you to. The only requirements are arriving from Deep Strike Reserves (Which is where the Dreadnought was along with the pod) and arriving within 12" of two of the models with Teleport Homers.

Also, a Unit in Deep Strike Reserves can be Deep Striking and not arrive "by Deep Strike".
Deep Strike Reserves = Deep Striking
Deep Striking =/= arriving by Deep Strike

The Unit (T+Passengers) is Deep Striking, but only the Transport is arriving "by Deep Strike", while the Passengers are arriving "by disembarking", but the entire (combined) Unit is Deep Striking

Within the Deep Strike rules is this:

'In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.'

If the embarked unit is not arriving by Deep Strike, what is the relevance of the above paragraph?

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Within the Deep Strike rules is this:

'In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.'

If the embarked unit is not arriving by Deep Strike, what is the relevance of the above paragraph?

Yup. This is what does it for me. The above clearly indicates that GW considers a unit embark on a "Deep Striking Transport" to be a "Deep Striking Unit".

 Kriswall wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Within the Deep Strike rules is this:

'In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.'

If the embarked unit is not arriving by Deep Strike, what is the relevance of the above paragraph?

Yup. This is what does it for me. The above clearly indicates that GW considers a unit embark on a "Deep Striking Transport" to be a "Deep Striking Unit".

Correct, as i have said:
Deep Strike Reserves = Deep Striking

Aa unit embarked on a "Deep Striking Transport" is indeed Deep Striking.

Deep Striking =/= arriving "by Deep Strike"

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Within the Deep Strike rules is this:

'In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.'

If the embarked unit is not arriving by Deep Strike, what is the relevance of the above paragraph?

So you are correct but miss-wording it.

The embarked unit is not arriving by Deep Strike.
But it is Deep Striking.

What does the Legion of the Damned rule require?

I'm confused. If you are Deep Striking, you are arriving by Deep Strike are you not? The terms seem interchangeable to me. In fact, in the paragraph I quoted, both the vehicle and the embarked unit are described as 'Deep Striking'.

Are you saying that one Deep Striking unit is arriving by Deep Strike, but the other Deep Striking unit is not?

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
I'm confused. If you are Deep Striking, you are arriving by Deep Strike are you not? The terms seem interchangeable to me. In fact, in the paragraph I quoted, both the vehicle and the embarked unit are described as 'Deep Striking'.

Are you saying that one Deep Striking unit is arriving by Deep Strike, but the other Deep Striking unit is not?

Yes, that is exactly what is being said. It seems counterintuitive, but there are two ways to arrive by Deep Strike/from Deep Strike Reserves. The first is to complete the Deep Strike process (place first model, roll scatter, place other models). The second is to be embarked upon a Transport that completes the Deep Strike process. Both the Transport AND the embarked units are considered Deep Striking Units.

Indeed.

Because as you pointed out: 1) the rules state BOTH transport and Unit are Deep Striking.
However, 2) When you arrive "by Deep Strike", you need to place the models as per the Deep Strike rules:

 Kriswall wrote:
The first is to complete the Deep Strike process (place first model, roll scatter, place other models).

So the line i've put up top:

 BlackTalos wrote:
The Unit (T+Passengers) is Deep Striking, but only the Transport is arriving "by Deep Strike", while the Passengers are arriving "by disembarking", but the entire (combined) Unit is Deep Striking

Should hopefully explain it.

The Legion of the Damned, that must arrive "by Deep Strike", means that you must place one model, scatter, place the others, etc...

You cannot do so if you are disembarking from a Transport...

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
I'm confused. If you are Deep Striking, you are arriving by Deep Strike are you not?

Not necessarily. Units jumping out of a Stormraven Deep Strike, but are not arriving via Deep Strike. A unit teleporting via Gate of Infinity of Veil of Darkness is Deep Striking but not arriving by Deep Strike.

I think some rules might make this clearer too:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.
In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.

In Orange is the specific action of Arriving by Deep Strike, which only the Pod can do (because, for example, a Tactical Squad inside does not have the Deep Strike Special Rule, a requirement if you read the first line)

In Green is the reference to all of the unit, the Pod and the Passengers. As can be shown from the Reserves rule:
"Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle."

The "Roll for the arrival of all" part of Deep Strike must refer to the Pod AND the Unit inside.

Thanks guys. I can see the distinction now. A Deep Striking unit does not necessarily 'Arrive by Deep Strike'.

Perhaps GW's definition of terms could have been clearer?

No, its pretty clear the units are in fact deep striking they're method for deep striking is using a Drop Pod or a Storm Raven, or any of the myriad of other abilities that trigger when a unit that deep strikes lands near by .

If they were deep striking, they couln't disembark. A deep striking can't move the turn it arrives.

 humanas wrote:
If they were deep striking, they couln't disembark. A deep striking can't move the turn it arrives.

"other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

It's the same phrase in the rules.......


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
No, its pretty clear the units are in fact deep striking they're method for deep striking is using a Drop Pod or a Storm Raven, or any of the myriad of other abilities that trigger when a unit that deep strikes lands near by .

But you are aware that a lot of the "myriad of other abilities" usually mention arriving "by Deep Strike"? Which the passengers never do.

Which is why these need specific questions to answer, like:

-Blood Angels Augur triangulation: Yes it works
-Legion of the Damned: No it does not work
-etc

"other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

Forgot about that, you are right.

this thread feels like someone singing the 'toot sweets' song from 'chitty-chitty-bang-bang' but replacing the 'toot sweets' with 'deep strike.

punctuated by sporadic, manic laughter..