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 Jollydevil wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No don't get me wrong I can see why the Fists were asked instead of the IW, my point being that IF the IW were asked, they wouldn't have turned traitor.

And he would've fortified the Palace at least as well as Dorn, but yeah there are other factors at play.

Yea, then he probably wouldn't have turned traitor. But the same could be said of most if not all of the traitor primarchs and for Luther as well. Horus wouldn't have turned traitor if he wasn't wounded by Temba and taken to the Serpent Lodge; Magnus wouldn't have turned traitor if Prospero wasn't attacked; Fulgrim wouldn't have turned traitor if he hadn't picked up that demon blade, etc

But in Perturabo's case, the bitterness seems to come more from pent-up frustration and his own insecurity rather than any great outside influence. So the decision to become a traitor seems like a much more conscious decision than with the other cases.

Most of those were unavoidable though. Theyre luck based. You wouldnt be able to change Fulgrim picking up the sword of the Laer.
Except for Magnus, because Horus clearly orchestrated that.

Yea, that's what I meant. Perturabo's case was entirely avoidable but putting him in charge of Terra's defences wasn't the only possible solution. In the end his betrayal really just came down to his own temperament and social exclusion, which doesn't do him much credit.

 Jollydevil wrote:
Most of those were unavoidable though. Theyre luck based. You wouldnt be able to change Fulgrim picking up the sword of the Laer.
Except for Magnus, because Horus clearly orchestrated that.

Horus wasn't luck based, he chose to turn traitor, even when Magnus had shown that Sejanus was Erebus and what he was being told was a pack of lies. Fulgrim, the sword could've been picked up by, was it Marius? And even then he had the choice, listen to the voices in his head or you know, don't. In most cases, the Traitors were all traitors willingly.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
Most of those were unavoidable though. Theyre luck based. You wouldnt be able to change Fulgrim picking up the sword of the Laer.
Except for Magnus, because Horus clearly orchestrated that.

Horus wasn't luck based, he chose to turn traitor, even when Magnus had shown that Sejanus was Erebus and what he was being told was a pack of lies. Fulgrim, the sword could've been picked up by, was it Marius? And even then he had the choice, listen to the voices in his head or you know, don't. In most cases, the Traitors were all traitors willingly.

He may believe he chose to turn traitor, but until it gets retconned we still have the old William King story aboard the Vengeful Spirit. It shows the Chaos gods flee Horus' body to avoid the Emperor's final attack and Horus immediately starts sobbing as he realizes everything he has done. I think that's a pretty good indication that the REAL Horus never chose to betray the Emperor/Imperium.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
Most of those were unavoidable though. Theyre luck based. You wouldnt be able to change Fulgrim picking up the sword of the Laer.
Except for Magnus, because Horus clearly orchestrated that.

Horus wasn't luck based, he chose to turn traitor, even when Magnus had shown that Sejanus was Erebus and what he was being told was a pack of lies. Fulgrim, the sword could've been picked up by, was it Marius? And even then he had the choice, listen to the voices in his head or you know, don't. In most cases, the Traitors were all traitors willingly.

He may believe he chose to turn traitor, but until it gets retconned we still have the old William King story aboard the Vengeful Spirit. It shows the Chaos gods flee Horus' body to avoid the Emperor's final attack and Horus immediately starts sobbing as he realizes everything he has done. I think that's a pretty good indication that the REAL Horus never chose to betray the Emperor/Imperium.

I don't think that changes anything, he made the choice to start all of it. He might not have intended to lose it like he did but it happened. He made the choices that resulted in him becoming the Horus in that story.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
Most of those were unavoidable though. Theyre luck based. You wouldnt be able to change Fulgrim picking up the sword of the Laer.
Except for Magnus, because Horus clearly orchestrated that.

Horus wasn't luck based, he chose to turn traitor, even when Magnus had shown that Sejanus was Erebus and what he was being told was a pack of lies. Fulgrim, the sword could've been picked up by, was it Marius? And even then he had the choice, listen to the voices in his head or you know, don't. In most cases, the Traitors were all traitors willingly.

He may believe he chose to turn traitor, but until it gets retconned we still have the old William King story aboard the Vengeful Spirit. It shows the Chaos gods flee Horus' body to avoid the Emperor's final attack and Horus immediately starts sobbing as he realizes everything he has done. I think that's a pretty good indication that the REAL Horus never chose to betray the Emperor/Imperium.

I don't think that changes anything, he made the choice to start all of it. He might not have intended to lose it like he did but it happened. He made the choices that resulted in him becoming the Horus in that story.

My point is that it wasn't actually Horus making those decisions, and when the Chaos gods fled his body the real Horus resurfaced and was horrified by what had happened. That's actually exactly how it is described in the story, the Emperor lets loose his attack anyways because they both know that Horus would forever be vulnerable to the Chaos gods.

Basically the real Horus had not been seen or heard from since he was wounded on Davin's moon.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
Most of those were unavoidable though. Theyre luck based. You wouldnt be able to change Fulgrim picking up the sword of the Laer.
Except for Magnus, because Horus clearly orchestrated that.

Horus wasn't luck based, he chose to turn traitor, even when Magnus had shown that Sejanus was Erebus and what he was being told was a pack of lies. Fulgrim, the sword could've been picked up by, was it Marius? And even then he had the choice, listen to the voices in his head or you know, don't. In most cases, the Traitors were all traitors willingly.

Not really. Thats easy to say as a bystander, because you know the facts. But to Horus his decisions seemed correct at the time, because he legitimately believed he was saving the Imperium and doing what was correct. It was less of a fact of worshipping Chaos and more of using it to achieve his goals (though obviously he didnt exactly know what he was getiing into).As for Fulgrim, how was he supposed to know the sword was tainted? Furthermore, he wasnt even aware that the voices werent his own for a large portion of time, only finding out so essentially after it was too late to turn back. And it didnt hurt that he essentially liked what he was hearing.

 Jollydevil wrote:
Not really. Thats easy to say as a bystander, because you know the facts. But to Horus his decisions seemed correct at the time, because he legitimately believed he was saving the Imperium and doing what was correct. It was less of a fact of worshipping Chaos and more of using it to achieve his goals (though obviously he didnt exactly know what he was getiing into).As for Fulgrim, how was he supposed to know the sword was tainted? Furthermore, he wasnt even aware that the voices werent his own for a large portion of time, only finding out so essentially after it was too late to turn back. And it didnt hurt that he essentially liked what he was hearing.

So Magnus, Erebus and Horus didn't have a chat in the warp? And that's one of the problems I have with the series, I might have missed it, but where has Horus actually said 'I am doing this for the benefit of the Imperium'. I know this to be the case because other things have said it, but so far it seems like Horus is doing it because he is angry with the Emperor for not giving him a statue. And yes, by the end of it he was little more than a pawn, I've not said otherwise, but he started the whole shebang off.

Fulgrim had a choice to not fight along side Horus.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
Not really. Thats easy to say as a bystander, because you know the facts. But to Horus his decisions seemed correct at the time, because he legitimately believed he was saving the Imperium and doing what was correct. It was less of a fact of worshipping Chaos and more of using it to achieve his goals (though obviously he didnt exactly know what he was getiing into).As for Fulgrim, how was he supposed to know the sword was tainted? Furthermore, he wasnt even aware that the voices werent his own for a large portion of time, only finding out so essentially after it was too late to turn back. And it didnt hurt that he essentially liked what he was hearing.

So Magnus, Erebus and Horus didn't have a chat in the warp? And that's one of the problems I have with the series, I might have missed it, but where has Horus actually said 'I am doing this for the benefit of the Imperium'. I know this to be the case because other things have said it, but so far it seems like Horus is doing it because he is angry with the Emperor for not giving him a statue. And yes, by the end of it he was little more than a pawn, I've not said otherwise, but he started the whole shebang off.

Fulgrim had a choice to not fight along side Horus.

I never said that. I said that the fact that they did is irrelevant. Horus accepted the ruinous powers to take over the Imperium, not to worship chaos. Furthermore, yes, he did "make the decision" himself, but only because he was deliberately shown the future of humanity, even though unbeknownst to him he would be the one to cause it. So sure, he made the decision, but it seemed to him there wasnt much of another option.
As for the "doing this for the Imperium" thing, I think its implied, by what I said above ^ (the future of humanity vision). I havent finished all the Heresy books (though ive looked up most of the plot lines over the years) so I cant pick you out a single instance.
And as for Fulgrim, the book states that were it not for the demon poisoning Fulgrims thoughts, Horus would have had no chance in recruiting him.
So all im saying is that even though, yes, they may have made the decisions, they werent exactly in the best state of mind, and were more influenced/ forced to make them by outside forces.

Lion is my favorite. He can still a room with just a look and he doesn't really have a "grey area". He will get the job done to save his men by any means necessary.

Sanginius, because who doesn't want to be a literal angle of death?

AAAAANGROOOOOON! RAAAAAAAWR!

That's my reasoning.

But seriously I really sympathize with the crazy bastard after reading Betrayer; His story and his whole legions' story is pretty tragic, which i did not expect going into it.

I always thought he was just a poorly written Rage-Beast who everyone should have known would turn to Chaos (see Konrad Curze), but Betrayer pointed out that all that came from being denied the most honourable fight of his life and ultimately still feeling like a slave compared to the other Primarchs.

I dunno, maybe it was because I had such low expectations for him, exploring his character in Betrayer made him shine even better, but he is certainly my favourite Primarch.

And he's a fething monster in combat - damn.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 zombiekila707 wrote:
Why like the lion? Like Dark angels are evil as hell but the lion?! He is a pompous ass who kills his own men because he gets pissed when they talk back.

Source? Never heard him kill his own people other than the traitors. Also, how are they evil? The ones who were tainted by the warp are Chaos now, no longer true DA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I'm glad it's not just me that hate the Lion.

So the Lion doesn't get a pass on the hate but Guilliman does?

I think its the "Lion" in the "Primarchs" book after one of the librarins on the ship used his psychic powers he was arrested by a chaplin who brought him to the "lion" now the lion found out psykers kicked the crap out of daemons so he was like "this is good i will utilize this" When the chaplin told the lion it was against the edict of nikaea well the lion hates it when his peons talk back to him so he snaps his neck! Now we can all agree that the edict was a waste of time... But still he snapped his own sons neck that's messed up!

Also he helped DESTROY the salamanders because he gave perturabo super nuke artillery! Why would the lion do that!? Well he did it thinking that after horus was dealt with perturabo would speak highly of "the Lion" and make him into the Warmaster...

No really the lions a ass and it is sad that he is the Favorite primarch right now...

Now explain to me why the lion isn't the most hated primarch! Hell I put lorgar ahead of the lion in some regard!

I much prefer Lorgar to the Lion. Lorgar is another Primarch I actually quite like.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I much prefer Lorgar to the Lion. Lorgar is another Primarch I actually quite like.

I agree I hate chaos and all the evil legions. But reading "Aurelian" kinda opened my eyes on him also how he is very compassionate even to loyal brothers (maybe not Robute) but he mourned the death of Ferrus.

First Heretic was what made me like him. I haven't read Aurelian, I was waiting for the standard edition and just haven't got round to buying it, but I very much want to.

Lorgar is a very complex and interesting character for sure. But likeable? I wouldn't call him that.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Lorgar is a very complex and interesting character for sure. But likeable? I wouldn't call him that.

Well of course but comparing him to the Lion he is a shining beacon of hope which sounds like a oxymoron.

 zombiekila707 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 zombiekila707 wrote:
Why like the lion? Like Dark angels are evil as hell but the lion?! He is a pompous ass who kills his own men because he gets pissed when they talk back.

Source? Never heard him kill his own people other than the traitors. Also, how are they evil? The ones who were tainted by the warp are Chaos now, no longer true DA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I'm glad it's not just me that hate the Lion.

So the Lion doesn't get a pass on the hate but Guilliman does?

I think its the "Lion" in the "Primarchs" book after one of the librarins on the ship used his psychic powers he was arrested by a chaplin who brought him to the "lion" now the lion found out psykers kicked the crap out of daemons so he was like "this is good i will utilize this" When the chaplin told the lion it was against the edict of nikaea well the lion hates it when his peons talk back to him so he snaps his neck! Now we can all agree that the edict was a waste of time... But still he snapped his own sons neck that's messed up!

Also he helped DESTROY the salamanders because he gave perturabo super nuke artillery! Why would the lion do that!? Well he did it thinking that after horus was dealt with perturabo would speak highly of "the Lion" and make him into the Warmaster...

No really the lions a ass and it is sad that he is the Favorite primarch right now...

Now explain to me why the lion isn't the most hated primarch! Hell I put lorgar ahead of the lion in some regard!

text removed. Reds8n
Things like this really do not help.


Normally I would think this would be basic 101 Horus Heresy knowledge for any 40K fan, especially when you read the book, but clearly I can't just assume somebody isn' ignorant even when they read the material they're ignorant about.

The Lion gave Perturabo the titan-killers he looted from Horus' Forge World because this was before Isstvan V. That, as you seemingly missed, was the entire point of the book was the buildup to the battle for Isstvan V, meaning this was before the portrayal. By that point and time, nobody knew the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Word Bearers were traitors. Everyone believed them loyal, hence why Dorn sailed with them to attack the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children in what would later be known as the Drop Site Massecre.

Which was why the Lion was giving the titan-killers to Perturabo as, were you actually paying attention to what you read, he was jockeying for position as the new Warmaster after Horus rebelled. In turn for Perturabo using the siege engines to crush Horus on Isstvan V, he would support the Lion's claim to the title of warmaster when the wary ended. Next time when you try to make claims that call to question if you've even read the material, try not to make gak up, as chances are other people will have read the material as well. And thus know you're blatantly lying.

On top of this I must ask-

Bro, do you even Horus Heresy?


Also, as stated previously, Nemiel got his head punched off because he wanted to arrest/shut down the Librarians who just saved the ship from daemonic invasion and possession that probably would have killed everyone. Not to mention that nobody even bothered to follow the Edict of Nikea, or followed it since.

 zombiekila707 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
Lorgar is a very complex and interesting character for sure. But likeable? I wouldn't call him that.

Well of course but comparing him to the Lion he is a shining beacon of hope which sounds like a oxymoron.

Meh, the Lion is pretty ambient in his mood. 70% of the time he’s a stoic statue, 25% of the time he’s a nice dude and lastly 5% of the time he’s a gleeful maniac. The chaplain got unfortunate and met him at the wrong time.

We can dial down the rhetoric, a lot in fact, here please folks.

Thank you.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Lorgar is a very complex and interesting character for sure. But likeable? I wouldn't call him that.

I like him. I feel a bit sorry for him, in terms of how he started down the path to betrayal. I mean when he falls to chaos he's a dick, but chaos'll does that to you.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 zombiekila707 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
Lorgar is a very complex and interesting character for sure. But likeable? I wouldn't call him that.

Well of course but comparing him to the Lion he is a shining beacon of hope which sounds like a oxymoron.

Meh, the Lion is pretty ambient in his mood. 70% of the time he’s a stoic statue, 25% of the time he’s a nice dude and lastly 5% of the time he’s a gleeful maniac. The chaplain got unfortunate and met him at the wrong time.

Logar isn't some much likable as he is sympathetic. There's a difference between the do, and especially during Know No Fear (IIRC I think that's the right book), he comes across as an unpleasant person who is just the pawn of Chaos. You can't help but feel bad for him, especially considering his history and how the Emperor just smacked him down and publicly humiliated Lorgar in front of his own legion as well.

Certainly a more sympathetic character then Erebus. feth that donkey-cave. The Horus Heresy should be called the Erebus Heresy considering he instigated it.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 zombiekila707 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 zombiekila707 wrote:
Why like the lion? Like Dark angels are evil as hell but the lion?! He is a pompous ass who kills his own men because he gets pissed when they talk back.

Source? Never heard him kill his own people other than the traitors. Also, how are they evil? The ones who were tainted by the warp are Chaos now, no longer true DA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I'm glad it's not just me that hate the Lion.

So the Lion doesn't get a pass on the hate but Guilliman does?

I think its the "Lion" in the "Primarchs" book after one of the librarins on the ship used his psychic powers he was arrested by a chaplin who brought him to the "lion" now the lion found out psykers kicked the crap out of daemons so he was like "this is good i will utilize this" When the chaplin told the lion it was against the edict of nikaea well the lion hates it when his peons talk back to him so he snaps his neck! Now we can all agree that the edict was a waste of time... But still he snapped his own sons neck that's messed up!

Also he helped DESTROY the salamanders because he gave perturabo super nuke artillery! Why would the lion do that!? Well he did it thinking that after horus was dealt with perturabo would speak highly of "the Lion" and make him into the Warmaster...

No really the lions a ass and it is sad that he is the Favorite primarch right now...

Now explain to me why the lion isn't the most hated primarch! Hell I put lorgar ahead of the lion in some regard!

text removed. Reds8n
Things like this really do not help.


Normally I would think this would be basic 101 Horus Heresy knowledge for any 40K fan, especially when you read the book, but clearly I can't just assume somebody isn' ignorant even when they read the material they're ignorant about.

The Lion gave Perturabo the titan-killers he looted from Horus' Forge World because this was before Isstvan V. That, as you seemingly missed, was the entire point of the book was the buildup to the battle for Isstvan V, meaning this was before the portrayal. By that point and time, nobody knew the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Word Bearers were traitors. Everyone believed them loyal, hence why Dorn sailed with them to attack the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children in what would later be known as the Drop Site Massecre.

Which was why the Lion was giving the titan-killers to Perturabo as, were you actually paying attention to what you read, he was jockeying for position as the new Warmaster after Horus rebelled. In turn for Perturabo using the siege engines to crush Horus on Isstvan V, he would support the Lion's claim to the title of warmaster when the wary ended. Next time when you try to make claims that call to question if you've even read the material, try not to make gak up, as chances are other people will have read the material as well. And thus know you're blatantly lying.

On top of this I must ask-

Bro, do you even Horus Heresy?


Also, as stated previously, Nemiel got his head punched off because he wanted to arrest/shut down the Librarians who just saved the ship from daemonic invasion and possession that probably would have killed everyone. Not to mention that nobody even bothered to follow the Edict of Nikea, or followed it since.

1) Yes purtarbo was not thought of as a traitor and the actual heresy was yet to happen. But! We can agree that he gave them to perturabo because he wanted his backing when the lion threw in his lot to become warmaster which is kinda lame...

2)The lion killed one of his sons a little out of hand... that's it. Most primarchs would react differently to the situation (Dorn would be like "the chaps right you all going to jail") Still how he handled it was disgusting.

Listen man I read the books just started "The master of the first" (almost done) But its not like I am gonna criticize the Lion like I would Konrad or Angron or Fulgrim (he is just the worst) I was just curious on why everyone loves him when he is kinda of a dick and there are so many better Primarchs who are actually well for lack of a better word honorable.

If Fulgrim was the "fav" primarch on this I would have lost all faith in humanity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also this http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Lion_El%27Jonson it explains all the reaason why he is a

 zombiekila707 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 zombiekila707 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 zombiekila707 wrote:
Why like the lion? Like Dark angels are evil as hell but the lion?! He is a pompous ass who kills his own men because he gets pissed when they talk back.

Ja
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
...

*Not about Fulgrim*

yep, uh huh

blah blah blah

or Fulgrim (he is just the worst)

If Fulgrim was the "fav" primarch on this I would have lost all faith in humanity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also this http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Lion_El%27Jonson it explains all the reaason why he is a

Hey. Watch your tongue... buddy. Fulgrim 4 life yo

 zombiekila707 wrote:
or Fulgrim (he is just the worst)

Oi oi oi! How can you not luve a character with such a purty face? Fulgrim is kawaii as frack.

you know when your right your right!

Okay, the fact of the matter is, the Lion was already jockeying for power when the Warmaster had barely rebelled. He didn't even think of joining the Legions at Istvaan because he was too busy securing assets he could use to rise in power, like the siege engines at Diamat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
this is the majority of the reason why I hate the Lion, along with the fact that he has no sense of humor and that he killed Nemiel, my third fave Dark Angel, for no reason other than bad fluff writing. In case you guys forgot, the Dark Angels basically ignored the Edict of Nikaea (see: Fallen Angels)

I think the Lion is perfectly justified in his push for next Warmaster. I think he's the best suited for it. And yes, he killed one of his Chaplains, but the Chaplain wanted to turn them all in, despite the Librarians saving lives.

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think the Lion is perfectly justified in his push for next Warmaster. I think he's the best suited for it. And yes, he killed one of his Chaplains, but the Chaplain wanted to turn them all in, despite the Librarians saving lives.

You do realize that the Dark Angels have never followed the Edict of Nikaea, right? Case in point: Brother-Librarian Israfael teaching Zahariel how to be a Master Psyker over the 50 years that Luther and his training Cadre are on Caliban. That whole story was just one big steaming pile of bad fluff.

 dusara217 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think the Lion is perfectly justified in his push for next Warmaster. I think he's the best suited for it. And yes, he killed one of his Chaplains, but the Chaplain wanted to turn them all in, despite the Librarians saving lives.

You do realize that the Dark Angels have never followed the Edict of Nikaea, right? Case in point: Brother-Librarian Israfael teaching Zahariel how to be a Master Psyker over the 50 years that Luther and his training Cadre are on Caliban. That whole story was just one big steaming pile of bad fluff.

Well, that is the curse of GW. Some of their fluff is great, and some of it is terrible.