Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, first of all this is t some thread for me to gloat about winning or to troll about Tau. What this thread is about, is if I am a good player or are Tau just that good. Let me begin.

I play Tau and constantly I get comments about how Tau are so overpowered and cheesy, from my gaming group (which is my brother and our friend). Some of these comments are things like Tau are so easy to play or anyone can win with Tau. Could this be true ?
I started playing Tau in 5th edition and despite actually never winning a game with them, I really enjoyed playing them. When 6th edition and the new Tau codex hit, I knew the tide was about to turn.

Since I started playing the new Tau I have won almost all my games, and as you know this can get frustrating for your opponents. For a long time I built my lists with very strong units like, lots of crisis suits with dual plasma rifles, lots of pathfinders, hammerheads, commanders kitted to the teeth with gadgets and the mighty Riptide ( sometimes two!). Like most people I experimented with allies like eldar, CSM and space marines; although I never found mixed list that appealing. After winning most of my games through most of 6th and getting my Tau disliked I started to change my lists up, toning them down, if you like.

I started taking less pathfinders. Instead of three squads I would run two squads, or even one squad only. Instead of taking 6-8 per squad I dropped it down to 4-5. I even started running a single big squad of like 8-10, so all my eggs were is one basket and they were an easy target.

I toned down my crisis suits and their weaponry, instead of running multiple units of three I tried two units of three, or even just one unit of three. Instead of running dual plasma rifles, I would run Fusion/ plasma suits, then I tried missile pod/ plasma suit. Lately I've been running combos like fusion blaster/ burst cannon or plasma rifle/ flamer. Not really that optimal. I should note that I sometimes play Enclaves.

When I first got my riptide, I used it religiously. Every match at least 1000 points I would bring him. I always run FNP and used to mainly run the IA, but when I started toning down my list I start using the burst cannon. Sometimes now I don't even use FNP or even a Riptide!
Though I will admit when I bought my second one, I used to run two in big games a lot.

Ok to the main point of this thread.
I try to impose self limitations so my opponent have a better chance to win and so it offers more of a challenge to me. But even now that I am running some of the least optimal choice from my codex, I still win with ease. By least optimal I mean I waste points on things like leaders in all my squads when I don't need them, I don't use Riptides often ( like last 15 games no riptide), I use rail sides instead of missile sides, I run few markerlights/pathfinders, I make them easy targets, or don't run any at all ( my last 5-10 games have had like a single 5-6 squad of pathfinders and some games even no pathfinders/markerlights. When I use markerlight tokens I don't even ignore cover anymore, just use BS boost. I run weird weapon combos on my suits like burst cannon/ fusion blaster, I don't use commanders that much anymore I use commander Farsight. And not even with his bodyguard! I use hammerheads with rail gun and submunitions instead of ion cannons for anti-infantry blasts. In 6th I used to run the sun shark bomber, in 7th I used the razor shark fighter sometimes, both which are pretty terribly units lol. I run naked fire warrior units, foot slogging around instead in devil fish, I use a squad of base Kroot ( no sniper rounds) with a shaper who has a pulse carbine.

I mean none of my lists are fine tuned for tournament play or anything like that but I keep winning, and rarely have trouble doing it. And don't get me wrong, even with weirdly built lists, as soon as they are on the table I play to win, I don't hold back. Does this mean that I am good general? Or are Tau just that good even with their least effective unit choices?

My advice would be - since the stranger from the internet can't really aswer you - swap your army with that of your brother/buddy for a few games.

You'll get your answer once they learn to play Tau.

Tau in normal mission are really straightforward... you actually ignore 2 out of 3 game phases... what's assault and psychic?
So you just shoot everything to bits with them.

Also try maelstrom of war.

We play maelstrom all the time, and I don't just sit there static, my units move around to get the objectives lol
I also assault with my Tau, well with Farsight at least lol, and I don't ignore the psychic phase either, my brother loves running Ahriman in a squad of TS and psychic shrieking people 3 times a turn lol it's a pain

what are your friends playing?

And it's hard too compare yourself when you just play 2 different people.

Been playing tau since when they first came out. And i can say this is definitely the most powerful and versatile they have ever been.

I find that I have a really hard time vs neurons.

My brother is playing CSM atm, and my friends plays space wolves, but he is using his blood angels since the new dex dropped. And he will prob go to Necrons when they drop lol but I don't think my tau have played his Necrons before


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I struggled real bad against my brothers Wraithknight when he used it. He use to run it with his space wolf army. The only way I beat it was with the O'vesa star lol. But that was a one time thing. Current his TS army is a pain cause of the pychic capabilities and the 4++ .

A lot of community DOES NOT have the concept of competitive playing. Some people are just not that into the game, and with any army, they just can't use it to the best effect. In other word, if you check the rulebook/codex once or twice per game and your opponent does so once or twice per turn, then you deserve that victory.

I am not talking about cheese here. Damn cheese. Spamming is bad. I never bring the same unit twice in any game.

Changing tactics is not handicapped. I myself use a tactic which nobody ever uses, much to my disappointment, and have won numerous games because of that.

Winning also depends on luck. This never works the way people expect. I have had a game where, after an abysmal psychic phase and less-than-average shooting phase, turn 1, my opponent's entire Battlesuit squad with the Commander (who lost just enough Drones to be below 75% strength) failed Morale on 11 and ran off the board, effectively killing a fourth of his army and any chance of taking down my Dreadknight. Before that, I thought I was screwed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevertheless, I will admit that Tau are the easiest to play. Just shoot stuff and that's it. Remember those Marker Lights and Jet Packs.

Find a local tournament. Play. Eat humble pie.

Well there's the problem tau >space mahreeens. I personally never lost a battle against sm. There just to generic. And we have too many ap3 ap2 weapons rendering there armor useless.

And they can't out shoot tau. Or outmaneuver.

We have the perfact counter to any unit they bring out

We play competitively, just not cheesy net lists or anything like that. If we figure out a cool combo or something like that, we will play it to the best of out capability. I brother once found out about long fang prescience spam and gave that ago. He wiped my chaos army out in like two turns


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They tried to blame the codex for my victories, so I pulled the 5th edition tau dex in 7th, made an army and played my brother with a convincing win lol

Well then just play them with another army, problem solved, if you lose... you lost maybe because of unfamiliarity with a codex, You can't just come on here and be like "Tell me I'm right!" Theres too much information that you really haven't told us.

 Quickjager wrote:
Well then just play them with another army, problem solved, if you lose... you lost maybe because of unfamiliarity with a codex, You can't just come on here and be like "Tell me I'm right!" Theres too much information that you really haven't told us.

^This. Can you share your list and what your opponents typically run against you? My experience with Tau is that there are certain builds that are REALLY powerful and tend to be hard nuts to crack for other armies.

My typical build would be this for 1000 points( that's what we have been playing lately)
Commander or Farsight
6x stealth team, with two fusion
3x crisis suits burst/fusion
12 fire warrior team
Either another 12 man fire warrior team or 15 Kroot, shaper pulse carbine
Small squad of pathfinders
2 rail sides
2 rail heads

Always variations of that. Sometime I might drop a hammer head and take a razor shark. Or take out the pathfinders for some extra suits. I might drop the hammer heads and/or stealth suits and take an IA tide and a Devilfish. Just swaps changes here and there.

My brother TS army is generally 3 units of TS, Ahriman, auto cannon havocs, maybe some terminators , obliterates or a defiler. Depending on how many points he sinks in TS.

Our friend, when he has been playing his blood angels he has been running, a dev squad, sanguary guard, death company with packs, astorath or a jump pack captain, dreadnought, tactile squad sometimes with a rhino.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
Well then just play them with another army, problem solved, if you lose... you lost maybe because of unfamiliarity with a codex, You can't just come on here and be like "Tell me I'm right!" Theres too much information that you really haven't told us.

play my dark angles sometimes but I get slapped into the dirt every time, because all I have is dark vengeance and a terminator squad lol and I don't care if you tell me I'm wrong, just want some more opinions. Maybe I have no skill at all

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
My typical build would be this for 1000 points( that's what we have been playing lately)
Commander or Farsight
6x stealth team, with two fusion
3x crisis suits burst/fusion
12 fire warrior team
Either another 12 man fire warrior team or 15 Kroot, shaper pulse carbine
Small squad of pathfinders
2 rail sides
2 rail heads

If you're winning with that list, it's not because your army is overpowered.

What armies/lists are they running?

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
My typical build would be this for 1000 points( that's what we have been playing lately)
Commander or Farsight
6x stealth team, with two fusion
3x crisis suits burst/fusion
12 fire warrior team
Either another 12 man fire warrior team or 15 Kroot, shaper pulse carbine
Small squad of pathfinders
2 rail sides
2 rail heads

If you're winning with that list, it's not because your army is overpowered.

What armies/lists are they running?

I don't have it written down anywhere so forgive me for the lack of detail. I should also mention we don't play the same list for games and games, but write a new list for every game lol but they are alway pretty similar.

My brother TS army is generally 3 units of TS, Ahriman, auto cannon havocs, maybe some terminators , obliterates or a defiler. Depending on how many points he sinks in TS.

Our friend, when he has been playing his blood angels he has been running, a dev squad, sanguary guard, death company with packs, astorath or a jump pack captain, dreadnought, tactile squad sometimes with a rhino.

Tough to say. Your brother and friend might just be bad at playing. They may also be running bad lists. The problem is Tau are pretty good against most SM Armies that don't take advantage of of Tau's weaknesses, namely Drop Pod armies and things that get in and assault them quickly.

He's taking a very unoptimized list.
Railheads are generally ineffective, even against vehicles.
Railsides are lacking in damage output against Heavy Infantry and against most vehicles.
shaper is just extra cost onto the kroot
single source of markerlights
Suits are not optimized for any role.
stealthsuits are a points sink for the damage output.
Farsight adds little to the list.
Commander depends on loadout.

40k is often a game of rock/paper/scissors. And if you are playing two armies of power armored marines, then you are the paper and they are both rock armies.

My advice would be to play different people. Go to a store and play some different types of armies.

That or do an army swap. You play his CSM and he plays your tau. do the same scenario even.

I like the idea of swapping. If you're really skilled, you should be able to do roughly as well with any army. Yes, there will be some wonkiness switching codices, but once you play roughly a single game, they'll be ironed out.

As such, I'd run an experiment. Set up with another person to play six games, and keep the list / missions / terrain the same. Control for as many variables as you can. For the first three, play tau, for the second three, swap armies.

If you win more or less the same in all six games (excluding perhaps the first one with the new codex), then you're probably better than he was (or were lucky at a few key times more frequently), while if you slaughter it with the tau list and then really struggle on the other side of the table, it's more likely to be the list you're bringing.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:


My brother TS army is generally 3 units of TS, Ahriman, auto cannon havocs, maybe some terminators , obliterates or a defiler. Depending on how many points he sinks in TS.

Hah, try winning with such list yourself. Ailaros has a good point - swap armies, play and see. Yep, havoks and defilers can deal with pathfinders but than they lack survivability and actual reliable punch to threaten the rest of the army. Yes, a battlecannon on a 4-hp platform with 5++ and iwnd and ignore of crew shaken-stunned is nice vs crysis suits but not the WOW level of nice for 200 pt. Ahriman can threaten you too. If he's lucky with psy powers. And not getting one-shotted. And getting lucky with psy rolls. Basically, if he's VERY lucky. Other stuff is just not focused enough and mostly shooty. Can't just outshoot tau with CSM.

Yep, swap armies and see yourself. Our local CSM player looses all matches against my orkses, and the games ain't really that close as we'd both like. However, i constantly see mistakes in his tactical decisions - maybe that's just from my perspective, so, i've suggested an army swap to see if it actually can be done better. We'll see the results next game.

The good part is that you've actually questioned the 'skill vs list' thing yourself and haven't dropped to 'learn to play' arguements. It's a bright part. Now the grim part is that when you say: "Crysis suits, broadsides and pathfinders vs Thousand sons and Defilers" i think there's not a single person who'd trust in the CSM victory without involving the blood-of-virgins dice enchantment rituals.

 Byte wrote:
Find a local tournament. Play. Eat humble pie.

This, in the club I'm undefeated since 2011... seriously. In RTTs I average out 3rd ish (few 1st/2nds, tons of 4ths and a little lowers). I can only image how bad it would be at a GT. I get in a fair amount of games against guys who go to them (I simply can't give up entire weekends or the long travel expenses). I win way more than I lose when playing GT lists, but I'm also running streamlined brutal lists, and still am only roughly 70%ish against guys who barely place in the top 25% at events with 50+ attendees. I know I'd have to play extremely well to place in the top 25% myself. Top 25% hardly makes you a "that good" player considering how many don't take kick your teeth in lists or running a gimmick list that can self destruct on a few bad dice rolls (not to mention the occasional hard counter match up you'll get to your favor). Get into three or four organized, 20+ player events. You'll learn a lot about how good you are/aren't.

Whooping up on two buddies in a shallow meta pool with Tau... no offense, just not that impressive, especially since you're going against PA lists (especially CSM TS... they are just not very good... at all), especially since your playing 1k point lists (game balances way differently at different point levels), I also echo the "beat them with their own army" challenge. Take some time, swap codices so you can read up on them, and then play with the understanding that you'll play two games. 1 with your own lists, 1 with swapping the exact armies you just used. Then combine victory points... should be a fun and interesting new challenge.

I've asked about the idea of them playing tau and I play a different army, but I always get the same response. "I don't want to play tau". But I can keep asking, my brother may be more inclined towards it than our friend lol he hates the tau.

And the only tournament that I know that run in my area, doesn't even go ahead most of the time because of such little interest. A lot of people at that store play war machine card games.

And now that I think of it I did get to play against my tau army on an occasion. I was trying to get one of my friends involved with 40k, and when he would come over to play a game he would always opt for tau out of the few armies we had to play. But I used a Khorne CSM list and I managed to grasp victory with my PA chaos lord with a power fist lol was a great game that.
By no means is he a bad player either, he knows how to build a decent army and make good tactile decisions. We once did a little in house tournament with the four of us. And although I didn't get to play him cause we only played a game or two, I remember he whooped our other friend bad, albeit with gunline tau behind and Ageis defence lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also find TS marine to be quite threatening, ap 3 bolters kill everything they touch and psychic powers like Tzeentch firestorm really hurst my fire warriors, Kroot and pathfinders. Not to mention my brother seem to pass those 4++ until the cows come home lol

Sorry to bring you down but, I bought a Tau army near the beginning of 6th because i wanted to get back into 40k. I didn't really know all the rules or how powerful Tau are/were because i hadn't played them before and hadn't played since early 5th.

I played online (vassal) because i didn't have enough models to field and didn't know where i could play.

I won most games in 2 turns or got utterly trounced.

It was easy to figure out how to optimise the army and easy to play them because they're the only army that makes sense (who seriously runs across the field with a sword?).

Alas they are a pretty easy army to play (much to my disappointment, because they are the only logical army).

I try to defend them because its not the codex's fault, its the game IMO, but i know the truth.

BA army unoptimised, csm army that is made out of the worse units. Your army is far from OP and tau took a huge hit in 7th ed, but your opponents have just very bad armies. From what you listed your brother does not only skip all good csm unit, but he also picks up a lot of the worse ones.

It is always good to see that we are not the only ones who have that problem. My friend plays tau too and he always rapes most of our other players in our gaming group including me. We haven´t tested Tyranids yet, but so far Orks are a big mismatch and CSM have a tough time dealing with the Tau. The funniest thing I have encountered in 9 out of 10 games is when he has a deathstar with shadowsun and krisis suits in reserve, worth around 600 points, and the other 1200 points are enough to annihilate most of my army.

The only question I have for you is: How much terrain do you use? Do you have any kind of LOS-blocking terrain?

Fauk wrote:
The only question I have for you is: How much terrain do you use? Do you have any kind of LOS-blocking terrain?

I'm amazed it took this long for the question to be asked. It's, honestly, the most important factor when considering why a mostly-shooting army (Tau) is consistently winning over everything else.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fauk wrote:
The only question I have for you is: How much terrain do you use? Do you have any kind of LOS-blocking terrain?

I'm amazed it took this long for the question to be asked. It's, honestly, the most important factor when considering why a mostly-shooting army (Tau) is consistently winning over everything else.

How can that be more important than army composition?

Because army composition is essentially a given if you say "mostly shooting army" vs "everything else".

On one side you have a lot of shooting. On the other you have everything the opponents have tried.

rigeld2 wrote:
Because army composition is essentially a given if you say "mostly shooting army" vs "everything else".

On one side you have a lot of shooting. On the other you have everything the opponents have tried.

If the Tau misbuild, then they can't even shoot well, though. This renders the board moot.

Then they're not a "mostly shooting army" are they?

Martel732 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Because army composition is essentially a given if you say "mostly shooting army" vs "everything else".

On one side you have a lot of shooting. On the other you have everything the opponents have tried.

If the Tau misbuild, then they can't even shoot well, though. This renders the board moot.

Do you know how hard it is for the tau to misbuild? Unless they take all short range fire power and no markerlights, which no one trying to build a halfway decent list will do. Even a new player will do anything to compensate for a bad ballistics skill, and more often than not they do.