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Source

I've seen making the rounds so might as well buckle up and let Dakka at it. The link was just the last place that it popped up and I didn't feel like backtracking so I'm just using it atm. It is not what I would call an un-biased source, but it does show a lot of the responses to his initial Tweet.

I really can't stand that donkey-cave.

Chris Kyle fought to defend Moore's right to be a dumbass. Don't ever let him forget that.

Lots of talk about snipers this weekend (the holiday weekend of a great man, killed by a sniper), so I thought I'd weigh in with what I was raised to believe about snipers. My dad was in the First Marine Division in the South Pacific in World War II. His brother, my uncle, Lawrence Moore, was an Army paratrooper and was killed by a Japanese sniper 70 years ago next month. My dad always said, "Snipers are cowards. They don't believe in a fair fight. Like someone coming up from behind you and coldcocking you. Just isn't right. It's cowardly to shoot a person in the back. Only a coward will shoot someone who can't shoot back."
So I sent out this tweet today:
https://twitter.com/mmflint/status/556914094406926336
And then I sent this:
https://twitter.com/mmflint/status/556988226486169600
But Deadline Hollwood and the Hollywood Reporter turned that into stories about how I don't like Clint Eastwood's new film, "American Sniper." I didn't say a word about "American Sniper" in my tweets.
But here's what Deadline Hollywood posted (note how they changed "snipers" to "shooters" in their headline):
http://deadline.com/…/michael-moore-american-sniper-oscars…/
Hollywood Reporter has since corrected their story:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/…/michael-moore-blasts-ame…
If they wanted to know my opinion of "American Sniper" (and I have one), why not ask me?
So here's what I think about "American Sniper":
Awesome performance from Bradley Cooper. One of the best of the year. Great editing. Costumes, hair, makeup superb!
Oh... and too bad Clint gets Vietnam and Iraq confused in his storytelling. And that he has his characters calling Iraqis "savages" throughout the film. But there is also anti-war sentiment expressed in the movie. And there's a touching ending as the main character is remembered after being gunned down by a fellow American vet with PTSD who was given a gun at a gun range back home in Texas -- and then used it to kill the man who called himself the 'America Sniper'.
Also, best movie trailer and TV ads of the year.
Most of us were taught the story of Jesse James and that the scoundrel wasn't James (who was a criminal who killed people) but rather the sniper who shot him in the back. I think most Americans don't think snipers are heroes.
Hopefully not on this weekend when we remember that man in Memphis, Tennessee, who was killed by a sniper's bullet.

Does anyone honestly believe that it is just a coincidence that the weekend American Sniper opened up that Michael Moore decided to post a tweet about Snipers?

Yeah, that doesn't help his case at all.

If anything, it just goes to show how little he really knows.

His explanation doesn't do anything but make him attacking more and more of the military.

Artillery soldiers are cowards then. Fighter pilots are cowards then.

feth this guy, seriously.

I can understand Michael Moore's position, its a third party opinion, from veterans of WW2.
To the average infantryman snipers were he ultimate terror, and they did view it as cowardice, so long as the sniper was on the other side

However this third party opinion is directly linked to combat trauma, Michael Moore can make ethical comments but cant emulate combat trauma.

The second point he misses is that Iraq is not WW2. It's an asymmetric campaign where the enemy will do anything to win, and has no adherence to the laws of war. While the lines there can be blurred, and Moore and others have every right to point that out they fail to realise that often the best weapon against a terrorist is the bullet. As in the bullet, singular, expertly aimed, as opposed to the bomblet, guided missile or hail or rounds from an assault rifle or machine gun.
Heroism or cowardice doesn't come into it, asymmetric war comes into it, and the sniper is the cleanest tool.

Sniper work can still be cowardly, but that depends on the cause. If you pick up a sniper rifle to cause come mayhem in a crime spree, you will be marked as a coward. If you join a revolutionary cause and hit by stealth against an elected democratic government then also it can be rightfully considered cowardice.
But to use a sniper rifle against terrorists, that isn't cowardice, its necessary, and the rule of engagement are also different in a lawful combatant than from an illegal.

The main difference is the target, lawful government need to police streets, sometimes with soldiers. It takes some balls to walk along an open street in Belfast or Baghdad knowing there could be a sniper there, and in a real way its cowardly to take the shot. The sniper need not be there, while the solider has some form of right, especially when the region is under democratic majority rule.
However an ISIS team being target by special forces is different, the ISIS team doesnt have to patrol the streets in full view, and need not be there. The sniper also has to check his target, wheras a terrorist does not, and the sniper has to remain at his job, wheras the terrorist can go home.

I'm not too familiar with Chris Kyle, I know that there was that Ventura defamation lawsuit(?) but that's about it.

A few of Dakka's members served in that theatre so it'll be interesting to hear their opinions.

It certainly takes great courage to serve in the armed forces. Iraq looked like hell.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Chris Kyle fought to defend Moore's right to be a dumbass. Don't ever let him forget that.

Is this sarcasm?

If not when do you remember Saddam seriously threatening Western freedom? It's also a little off considering the state that Iraq is in now.

That's not an intended insult to those in the military. They conduct themselves with bravery and distinction even when politicians lie through their teeth.

Dickheads that make terrible movies and kill innocent cheeseburgers are the real cowards.

"That's what my Daddy used to say" is not a defense.

He is just doing this for attention I think, not like he is famous now and making millions a film.
And oh looked how well it worked.

Michael Moore made another stupid comment? In other news, the Sun is rising this morning.

Crap. A bit cloudy where I am at so no sunrise for me.
Micheal Moore eh. A fart has more substance then him

While I agree that he is a sad little film-maker who happened to get lucky capitalizing on a niche product, this type of gak strikes a special cord for me, mostly because this donkey-cave has moved into my home town, and has done everything he can to turn it into his little utopia.

I hate it.

 djones520 wrote:
Yeah, that doesn't help his case at all.

If anything, it just goes to show how little he really knows.

His explanation doesn't do anything but make him attacking more and more of the military.

Artillery soldiers are cowards then. Fighter pilots are cowards then.

feth this guy, seriously.

Ayup! Can't agree more, but I'll add just hearing his name makes my skin crawl

Michael Moore is an idiot who says things like this to get attention from people he knows will agree with him. The people who are getting angry will never like him so he may as well use them to give him free advertising.

On the other hand, American Sniper is a film that is selling mostly on "America! feth ye!", the cult of the warrior and the myth of the sniper. People that are attacking Moore to veraciously were never going to like him and are now more likely to see the film. Free advertising for them too. (Don't get me wrong, it looks like a good, well made film, but thats not what it's selling on).

Both sides strengthen support from their core supporters and the rest of the world continues not giving a crap.

 Jihadin wrote:
Crap. A bit cloudy where I am at so no sunrise for me.
Micheal Moore eh. A fart has more substance then him

And more integrity, too.

I'm assuming that Mr Moore would like us to go back to the days when chaps would arrange a time & date for a set battle piece, turn up in nice bright coloured uniforms and stand in long lines? No shooting of officers though, most unsportsman like

War isn't nice Mr Moore. Get over it.

 Wolfstan wrote:
No shooting of officers though, most unsportsman like

That's such a European attitude. Shooting officers has been a viable tactic for us bloody colonists since the beginning. It helps that the bright red made them such good targets, too.


Moore's an idiot. Snipers have been an important and, frankly, idealized part of the US military tradition since before there was an official military.

 Steve steveson wrote:
Michael Moore is an idiot who says things like this to get attention from people he knows will agree with him. The people who are getting angry will never like him so he may as well use them to give him free advertising.

On the other hand, American Sniper is a film that is selling mostly on "America! feth ye!", the cult of the warrior and the myth of the sniper. People that are attacking Moore to veraciously were never going to like him and are now more likely to see the film. Free advertising for them too. (Don't get me wrong, it looks like a good, well made film, but thats not what it's selling on).

Both sides strengthen support from their core supporters and the rest of the world continues not giving a crap.

Have you seen the film?

I have not yet, but some very trusted people have told me that the film is not anything like that at all. It is more a look into the struggles that the military personnel who served in Iraq (this includes the Brits) had to deal with, when they came home.

If that is "America! feth ye!"... well then, I don't know what to say.

 Steve steveson wrote:

On the other hand, American Sniper is a film that is selling mostly on "America! feth ye!", the cult of the warrior and the myth of the sniper. People that are attacking Moore to veraciously were never going to like him and are now more likely to see the film. Free advertising for them too. (Don't get me wrong, it looks like a good, well made film, but thats not what it's selling on).

So presumably you saw it?

I found the book engrossing and I am saddened to hear that the author had subsequently been killed.......

djones520 wrote:
Have you seen the film?

I have not yet, but some very trusted people have told me that the film is not anything like that at all. It is more a look into the struggles that the military personnel who served in Iraq (this includes the Brits) had to deal with, when they came home.

If that is "America! feth ye!"... well then, I don't know what to say.

cincydooley wrote:

So presumably you saw it?

To be fair to Steve, he said they've been selling the movie based on that idea and he's very correct. That's a been a big part of the marketing campaign leading up to release and there was a sizable reaction about how the marketing had nothing to do with what the film was actually like or about.

 Platuan4th wrote:

djones520 wrote:
Have you seen the film?

I have not yet, but some very trusted people have told me that the film is not anything like that at all. It is more a look into the struggles that the military personnel who served in Iraq (this includes the Brits) had to deal with, when they came home.

If that is "America! feth ye!"... well then, I don't know what to say.

cincydooley wrote:

So presumably you saw it?

To be fair to Steve, he said they've been selling the movie based on that idea and he's very correct. That's a been a big part of the marketing campaign leading up to release and there was a sizable reaction about how the marketing had nothing to do with what the film was actually like or about.

That isn't the impression that I got at all from seeing trailer's and the like. Maybe it's just a different perspective because I am in the military. *shrugs*

Snipers are one of those oddities of war. They're great if they are on your side, but not fair if the other side have them. Alongside this you have the fact that most sailors have the same feelings about submariners, even those on their own side.

 djones520 wrote:


That isn't the impression that I got at all from seeing trailer's and the like. Maybe it's just a different perspective because I am in the military. *shrugs*

I hadn't seen the trailer(I don't go to the movies much), but I had seen TV spots for it and the ones I had seen were trying to paint it as something other than the psyche driven biopic it really is.

While Chris Kyle is a pretty problematic figure as a hero - the recent film really whitewashes him of his what can perhaps best be described as sociopathic elements - I think it's indisputable his actions, like the actions of every American sniper, saved the lives of American troops. I find it a pretty dumb argument that a sniper has any more blood on his hands, or less honor, then a guy who drops a bomb or loads a artillery shell or pilots a drone.

In this case Michael Moore is a toolbox, which is not an atypical place for him to be.

 Wolfstan wrote:
Snipers are one of those oddities of war. They're great if they are on your side, but not fair if the other side have them. Alongside this you have the fact that most sailors have the same feelings about submariners, even those on their own side.

I think this is described as "the only unfair fight is the one you lose"

 Wolfstan wrote:
Snipers are one of those oddities of war. They're great if they are on your side, but not fair if the other side have them. Alongside this you have the fact that most sailors have the same feelings about submariners, even those on their own side.

That is because hiding and killing others from a safe position is considered cowardly in most Western cultures. Therefore, snipers, submariners, artillerists and the like are often considered cowards. (Unless, they are on your side of course)

In any case, I don't like this guy and the whole personality cult around him. It stinks of ultranationalism.

 Medium of Death wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Chris Kyle fought to defend Moore's right to be a dumbass. Don't ever let him forget that.

Is this sarcasm?

If not when do you remember Saddam seriously threatening Western freedom? It's also a little off considering the state that Iraq is in now.

That's not an intended insult to those in the military. They conduct themselves with bravery and distinction even when politicians lie through their teeth.

I didn't read that as sarcasm. It's absolutely true.

It's like flag burning is protected speech. It's a gakky thing to do... but, we allow it.

An excellent example of Mr. Moore showcasing his ignorance, while trying to stay relevant

 Steve steveson wrote:
Michael Moore is an idiot who says things like this to get attention from people he knows will agree with him. The people who are getting angry will never like him so he may as well use them to give him free advertising.

On the other hand, American Sniper is a film that is selling mostly on "America! feth ye!", the cult of the warrior and the myth of the sniper. People that are attacking Moore to veraciously were never going to like him and are now more likely to see the film. Free advertising for them too. (Don't get me wrong, it looks like a good, well made film, but thats not what it's selling on).

Both sides strengthen support from their core supporters and the rest of the world continues not giving a crap.

I'd suggest to see the flix before making such assumption.

From what I've heard, the biggest impact in the film is it's depictation on the challenges military folks/family have when they come back home.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh... let me also add...

Remember Eastwood's "talking to empty chair" speech? And that the folks said his hollywood career is over?

About that, huh.