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So for those not familiar, The Nemesis Strike Force is a unique force organization for the Grey Knights. You lose 1 Fast Attack and 1 Heavy Support slot, but gain an elite slot and a rule called "Rites of Teleportation". In addition to being able to run and shoot the turn you arrive from deep strike, deep strike reserves can roll to arrive from turn 1.

So the scenario. Let's say you bring Purifiers as a part of the Nemesis Strike Formation. You also brought a Space Wolf ally, and as a part of that force you take drop pods in Fast Attack and have the Purifiers ride in them. Half of them rounded up arrive first turn, and here in lies the question. Can those Purifiers who don't arrive automatically turn one still roll to arrive turn 1 as per Rites of Teleportation, even though they're riding in a Space Wolf Drop Pod?

... you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve...

This would not work for Space Wolf Drop Pods.

You can still roll on turn one, the purifiers would bring the pod in with them. The purifiers plus pod are still a grey knight unit.

This has been a hotly argued subject on several threads and forums. Per RAW, Rites allows the Purifiers in SW (or BA) Drop Pod(s) to roll to arrive turn 1, and gain Battle Focus for the turn they arrive.

SJ

"Rites of Teleportation" (I'll say that again: Teleportation) being used on a Drop Pod (that thing that falls out of the sky and never, ever, teleports).

Whatever the RaW is, the RaI is a massive NO. A "not even worth thinking about" NO.

Nope. Drop pod is a SW unit and not part of your formation. Your NSF has nothing to do with that pod.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nope. Drop pod is a SW unit and not part of your formation. Your NSF has nothing to do with that pod.

Please re-read the section on Combined Units in the BRB, where it tells us that mixed unit rolls once for all models to enter play from reserve, which includes any ICs and Vehicles. Per RAW, the NSF Purifiers and the SW Fast choice Drop Pod are a Combined Unit that therefore rolls only once for all models in the unit. The NSF Purifiers qualify for the Rites of Teleportion benefit due to bring in Deep Strike Reserves while embarked on a Reserved SW Fast choice Drop Pod. One roll to arrive, and that roll is on Turn 1 due to Rites.

RAI is an unknown until an FAQ or Errata is released that address this specific situation. Unless you house rule it otherwise, RAW is how it's played.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
RAI is an unknown until an FAQ or Errata is released that address this specific situation.

RAI is not unknown, Drop pods don't Teleport!
RaW might be unclear, but RAI is crystal.

You are correct that there is a thing called a combined roll, however the drop pod is what is rolling to arrive not just the models inside it.

The drop pod does not have access to rites of teleportation in any way.

You are making a combined roll for the Transport+Unit+[IC if there is one attached]

however the roll is using the rules of the model that is deep striking, the pod- so no rites of teleportation. You do not get to use the reserve rules modification from rites of teleportation for any model in the combined roll you so choose, but are limited in that not all the models have certain ways to allow them permission to override the core rules.

The important part of the combined roll is that in the case of drop pods the model being placed, the pod, is deepstriking. You roll for the POD to arrive, then place it, then you can disembark the unit.

The pod does not have rites of teleportation, and there is no permission for it to be granted to the pod through the rules for rites of teleportation.

By the RAW there is no rites of teleportation for a drop pod.

Do Purifiers even have Deep Strike?
I must've missed that rule, and it's a change from the last codex.

purifiers do not have deep strike.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Do Purifiers even have Deep Strike?
I must've missed that rule, and it's a change from the last codex.

No, they don't. Hence why people want to put them inside a Drop Pod that magically then Teleports.
Honestly, unless someone paints it like a TARDIS I wouldn't stand for it in my games

I was under the impression that Rites of Teleportation did not work on a unit in another faction's drop pod because it was a detachment specific rule and detachment specific rules only affect that detachment. Otherwise I could take the Voidclaws formation and stick them in a Stormwolf and have the Stormwolf arrive by deepstrike T1 - but that's not how the rules work.

Of course, until someone quotes all the relevant rules word for word there can be no real argument made one way or the other.

Just because Rites of Teleportation has the word "teleportation" in it's name does not mean that "teleportation" is a game mechanic in 7th Ed Warhammer 40k. Yet, Deep Strike is a mechanic in the game, and models arriving by Deep Strike that also happen to be a unit in a Nemesis Strike Formation gains the benefit of rolling to arrive on Turn 1, and gains Battle Focus for the turn the unit arrives. So, is the unit of NSF Purifiers arriving by Deep Strike? Yes or no?

Per the rules for Transports arriving by Deep Strike, the passengers have also arrived by Deep Strike, and gain the benefit of being able to disembark upon arrival, which bypasses the normal restriction on units moving after the Deep Strike scatter is complete. So, yes, the NSF Purifiers have in fact arrived by Deep Strike and therefore gain the use of Battle Focus for that turn.

On the roll to arrive, it is neither the Drop Pod, nor the Purifiers, nor any attached ICs that is rolling to arrive from Reseves; it is the Combined Unit. When does the Combined Unit roll to arrive? Per Rites of Teleportion, a NSF unit that is Deep Striking rolls to arrive on Turn 1 instead of the normal Turn 2. Per the Combined Unit rules, the NSF Purifiers, the Drop Pod, and any attached ICs roll once for all of the models in the Combined Unit. So, when does the Combined Unit roll to arrive? Turn 1 or Turn 2?

Per RAW, Rites of Teleportation does not restrict the benefit to only models with the Deep Strike USR, or only models part of a Nemesis Strike Formation, or just Grey Knight units. The only restriction is that Rites is a benefit of units within the NSF, to which the NSF Purifier unit in our example is.

So the question now becomes, when does a unit in a Formation cease to be in that Formation? Per the BRB, never. Units cannot change formations, nor factions. This means that our NSF Purifiers will always be a unit in a Nemesis Strike Formation, will always gain the Rites of Teleportion benefit if Deep Striking, and cannot be denied a Turn 1 roll to arrive if arriving by Deep Strike (unless a specific rule restricts the use of Rites). Combined Units allows only one roll for the mixed unit, and that one roll is made on Turn 1 in our example. The SW Drop Pod cannot deny the roll, nor delay the roll, nor change the roll, beyond it's own Drop Pod Assault rule.

Your inability to get beyond the word "teleportation" in the name "Rites of Teleportation" is your issue, not a rules issue.

SJ

You're not rolling for the Purifiers, though, right? (Although the Purifiers must be arriving by Deep Strike.) You're rolling for the vehicle that the Purifiers happen to be inside.

What does the BRB say about occupied Transports that are in reserve? The vehicle and the passengers are separate units, so what gives the permission to only roll once for the two separate units?

 grendel083 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
RAI is an unknown until an FAQ or Errata is released that address this specific situation.

RAI is not unknown, Drop pods don't Teleport!
RaW might be unclear, but RAI is crystal.

Except for the nitpicky fact that Rites of Teleportation, despite the name, has nothing to do with Teleportation but rather with Deep Striking units. Not all deep striking units teleport, yet they may have access to Rites of Teleportation.
Stop trying to use a name as part of the rule instead of the actual rule itself.

However, I agree that the Allied pod does not gain access to Rites because you are indeed rolling for the pod to arrive from reserves (combined with any embarked unit + ic). Combined reserves allows the embarked unit to come in with the unit doing the DS'ing on one roll, not to allow the DS'ing unit to use the embarked units rules.

Can somebody type out the relevant rules?

Just saying, "RAW I can" or "RAW you can't" is utterly meaningless unless you quote the "rules as written" that allow or disallow. Anything less than a quote is an opinion, which is fine, I have opinions too. Unfortunately, I don't have my rule book or I would find the rules and lay them out so we could actually see what the rules say.

 NightHowler wrote:
Can somebody type out the relevant rules?.

Can somebody? Yes. However, since that can get the site in trouble we try not to post rules unless it is relevant to the discussion.

In this case it is simply "X" can do "Y". If "X" is with "Z", does "Z" get affected by "Y"?

Fair enough. Good luck coming to a consensus.

It won't come to a consensus until GW either learns to write clear concise rules, or releases an FAQ.

As it is fluff-wise you need to be teleporting i, which (generally) requires Terminator armour. Drop Pods don't teleport.

Just for the record, this is from the pinned thread on how to conduct a YMDC rules discussion:

"Premises

For the sake of organization, number your premises. Premises should be largely based on rules. Sometime the rules won't cover the issue, but if there is a related rule, it's a good idea to include it in a premise. Be sure to provide page numbers or quotes."

special rules from an unit do not extend to their transport, because their transport is a separate unit.

Yes, you make 1 combined roll for the transport+unit. But it is the transport that is arriving by deep strike, the unit inside is arriving from deepstrike reserves (along with the transport).

The transport does not have the rites of teleportation rule, is not an unit from the NSF detachment, and is not joined to an unit from the NSF detachment, so there is no arguable way that it can have the special rule nor benefit from it as the rule states:

Rites of Teleportation
Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+.

There is no point in time that the SW drop pod bought from some other detachment is an unit, or part of an unit from the NSF detachment. The combined reserves roll gives no permission for you to pick some special ability of one of the units and apply it to all the units in the combined roll, it is simply 1 roll for all the units. The purifiers do not have deep strike, the Drop Pod does have deepstrike but does not have rites of teleportation. Rites does not say it extends to a transport they are in. There is no RAW giving the transport rites of teleportation.

as for the 2nd thing rites grants[not quoted], the unit inside would benefit from this if they are from the NSF detachment because they are arriving from deep strike reserves along with the pod when the pod arrives by deep strike.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nope. Drop pod is a SW unit and not part of your formation. Your NSF has nothing to do with that pod.

Please re-read the section on Combined Units in the BRB, where it tells us that mixed unit rolls once for all models to enter play from reserve, which includes any ICs and Vehicles. Per RAW, the NSF Purifiers and the SW Fast choice Drop Pod are a Combined Unit that therefore rolls only once for all models in the unit. The NSF Purifiers qualify for the Rites of Teleportion benefit due to bring in Deep Strike Reserves while embarked on a Reserved SW Fast choice Drop Pod. One roll to arrive, and that roll is on Turn 1 due to Rites.

RAI is an unknown until an FAQ or Errata is released that address this specific situation. Unless you house rule it otherwise, RAW is how it's played.

SJ

Drop pods do not roll for reserves though. I don't think you can get around that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Do Purifiers even have Deep Strike?
I must've missed that rule, and it's a change from the last codex.

They do not. Therefore they themselves do not have access to the turn 1 deep strike anyways.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nope. Drop pod is a SW unit and not part of your formation. Your NSF has nothing to do with that pod.

Please re-read the section on Combined Units in the BRB, where it tells us that mixed unit rolls once for all models to enter play from reserve, which includes any ICs and Vehicles. Per RAW, the NSF Purifiers and the SW Fast choice Drop Pod are a Combined Unit that therefore rolls only once for all models in the unit. The NSF Purifiers qualify for the Rites of Teleportion benefit due to bring in Deep Strike Reserves while embarked on a Reserved SW Fast choice Drop Pod. One roll to arrive, and that roll is on Turn 1 due to Rites.

RAI is an unknown until an FAQ or Errata is released that address this specific situation. Unless you house rule it otherwise, RAW is how it's played.

SJ

Drop pods do not roll for reserves though. I don't think you can get around that.

Most certainly they do. 1/2 rounded up come in automatically T1, however after that you have to roll.

It doesn't matter whether or not a model has Deep Strike for that model to be embarked on a Drop Pod in Reserves, because the Drop Pod has the Deep Strike USR, the Transport rules allow the passengers embarked on a Deep Striking Transport to Deep Strike with the Transport, and the Combined Unit rules clarify that the passengers and the Transport roll as a single unit to arrive. This means that you do not roll to arrive for the Drop Pod, nor the Purifiers; you roll to arrive for the Combined Unit. The Combined Unit qualifies for Rites of Teleportation the moment the Purifiers embark the Drop Pod while in Reserves, because the requirement to arrive via Deep Strike has been met. It is false to believe that the Drop Pod's lack of being a NSF unit has any effect on the Purifiers being a NSF unit. The Purifiers have Rites via being in Deep Strike Reserves, which was legally achieved through being Battle Brothers with Allied Space Wolves and embarking upon one or more Fast choice SW Drop Pods.

There is no way in the current rule set to deny a unit a benefit gained through the unit's formation. A unit gains or loses any benefits based on the wording of the benefits. After acquiring Deep Strike via embarking on a Battle Brother Allied non-Dedicated Drop Pod, the Combined Unit rules as well as the wording of Rites of Teleportation does legally allow the Combined Unit of NSF Purifiers + SW Fast choice Drop Pod to roll for arrival on Turn 1 (if the Combined Unit did not already arrive Turn 1 via Drop Pod Assault).

GW wrote those rules, and have yet to errata or FAQ any changes to how these rules are worded or interact. At the moment, this tactic is legal.

SJ

jeffersonian, is the Combined Unit a unit from the NSF detachment? If so, can you show rules support for that?

 Happyjew wrote:
jeffersonian, is the Combined Unit a unit from the NSF detachment? If so, can you show rules support for that?

Yes, the Combined Unit is part of the NSF by virtue of including a NSF unit. This is covered not only in the Combined Unit rules, but in the Formation rules and Allies rules. As I have already stated.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
jeffersonian, is the Combined Unit a unit from the NSF detachment? If so, can you show rules support for that?

Yes, the Combined Unit is part of the NSF by virtue of including a NSF unit. This is covered not only in the Combined Unit rules, but in the Formation rules and Allies rules. As I have already stated.

SJ

This is untrue and there are no rules supporting it in any way.

The transport is never considered part of the unit it is being used by, and is definitely chosen from a different detachment. There are no actual rules that support a transport being used by an unit from a different detachment counting as being from the different detachment the unit is from.

I suggest actually reading the Combined Unit rules.

SJ

Under Combined Reserve Units pg 135 last sentence "In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/ Transport vehicle."

If a unit and Transport vehicle are a combined reserve unit which unit is bringing in the other?

From reading from the blood angel's codex about drop pod rules (I am assuming the drop pod rules are universal between all the codexes if not please correct me) embarked units fall to the pecking order of the Transport as the emparked unit

Indepdent character < unit < embarked Transport. from how i am reading it of the Combined Reserve Units.

As well in the Deep Strike section of the USR pg 162 it seems to lead to that the Transport vehicle is the unit that is deep striking Deep strike and Transports "Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside. A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike Regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."

HIWPI is that unless the embarked unit has Deep Strike and the Drop pod is not part of the NSF that is a no go since the drop pod isn't part of it.

Another way I see it is that yes they are a Combined Unit and you only roll once for the whole thing......but the drop pod is still NOT part of the NSF and the drop pod does not have a clause where they follow the rules for the embarked unit (like the IC clause how when it joins a unit it becomes part of that unit for all rules purposes) and (if i could get the full rules for the Rite of Teleportation so I'm stating this correctly would be grand) since the Rite of Teleport only allows units ONLY from the formation to have it you have a Combined Unit that is part from the formation and part -NOT- from the formation. If the Rite of Teleportation says it ONLY works for units from the formation this is still a no go even though you have one unit that is part of it you also have a unit that is NOT part of it, if you use the Rite of Teleportation for a unit not part of the detatchment regardless if it is a Combined Unit or not (excluding IC because they have a rule that treats them as part of the joined unit for all rules) you are breaking the rule.

In short you need not just a yes for "this unit is part of the formation" but you need a yes for the entire part of what you want the Rite to be used for. In this case you have a yes/no

that's how I see it anyway.>