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The purifiers benefit from the rule because the rule doesn't care how the you it got into DSR, just that it is there. The pod gets to benefit from it by being combined with the purifiers, who by their special rule get to roll on turn one, and who have rulebook permission to do so based on the wording of the combined reserves rule in the brb.

 Ghaz wrote:
From the 'Nemesis Strike Force' rules:

you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one.

So how is the pod benefiting from this rule if its not in this Detachment?

How are the Purifiers benefiting from this rule when the only reason they can be in Deep Strike Reserve is because of the pod?

Do you dispute the fact that the Purifiers are in Deep Strike Reserve?

Ghaz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Oberron wrote:
But the SW Drop Pod Isn't part of the NSF. How is the drop pod coming in from Rite of teleportation? Where is this permission?

The Purifiers are coming in via Rite of Teleportation. The Pod is coming in via the Combined Unit rule. The pod never interacts with Rite of Teleportation.

The Purifiers don't have the Deep Strike rule, so there is a mandatory interaction with the drop pod.

The RoT only interacts with the Purifiers, not with the Pod. You asserting otherwise doesn't make it true.

Rites of Teleportation must interact with the pod, because that's the only model in the unit that can Deep Strike. Your assertions don't make your claims true.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Why must it? All it says is that units in Deep Strike Reserve get to roll to come on first turn. It doesn't matter whether or not the models (purifiers) can actually Deep Strike, only that they are in Deep Strike Reserve.

Ghaz wrote:From the 'Nemesis Strike Force' rules:

you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one.

So how is the pod benefiting from this rule if its not in this Detachment?

How are the Purifiers benefiting from this rule when the only reason they can be in Deep Strike Reserve is because of the pod?

The Pod is not, strictly, benefiting from the rule. It is merely rolling to come in "normally" as the DPA rule allows. "Normally" includes (but is not limited to) arriving as part of a Combined Unit. The Purifiers are the real unit coming in from reserves, and they bring the pod (as they "normally" would) by virtue of the Combined Units rule.

No one is disputing the Purifiers are in Deep Strike Reserves. The issue is not that the Purifiers do not have Deep Strike, but that they are embarked upon the Drop Pod, which is not in a Nemesis Strike Force Detachment and is subject to the requirements for Drop Pod Assault.

You are stating the combined reserves roll is for a unit in a Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, when it is a roll for a unit in a Nemesis Strike Force Detachment embarked upon a unit not in a Nemesis Strike Force Detachment. Permission is explicitly given for the former but that does not imply permisssion for the latter.

No, but they're only there because of the drop pod. Do they have a rule that would allow them to leave without the pod?

The problem lies in using a rule that only applies to units in the NSF detachment that the unit can only use because they're in a transport that's not in the NSF detachment.

 Ghaz wrote:
No, but they're only there because of the drop pod. Do they have a rule that would allow them to leave without the pod?

The problem lies in using a rule that only applies to units in the NSF detachment that the unit can only use because they're in a transport that's not in the NSF detachment.

Fortunately, the Transport's rules says that it rolls "normally" when it doesn't DPA. A "normal" state of a transport in DSR is to join a Combined Unit with the Unit it is transporting. So when we roll for the Purifiers, they include the pod (upon which they're embarked) along with any independent characters (such as a Lord Commissar) as part of the Combined Unit rules.

 Ghaz wrote:
No, but they're only there because of the drop pod. Do they have a rule that would allow them to leave without the pod?

No, but I don't need one.

I'm demonstrably rolling for the Purifiers. The fact that the Combined Units rule brings along the Pod is irrelevant.

The problem lies in using a rule that only applies to units in the NSF detachment that the unit can only use because they're in a transport that's not in the NSF detachment.

You've invented that problem. The rules don't have a problem with it.

So, you're just drop padding one squad of purifiers?

They can arrive turn one on the drop pod because the drop pod follows rules for drop pod assault.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
So, you're just drop padding one squad of purifiers?

I'm dropping the combined unit of Purifiers + Pod based on the fact that the Purifiers are allowed to roll on turn one.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
So, you're just drop padding one squad of purifiers?

They can arrive turn one on the drop pod because the drop pod follows rules for drop pod assault.

This is missing the question. The Question is "If all of my DPA pods have already dropped, can I roll for more pods on turn 1 if they have NSF units in their holds?"

I've not been commenting, but have read the entire thread.

I have to say that I'm convinced that RoT does not allow any additional pods to deepstrike on T1 beyond the 1/2 you get from DPA.

I'm also convinced that RoT does not allow you to put purifiers (or any other NSF unit) in a caestus assault ram or any other deepstriking transport and deepstrike that in T1.

I appreciate why all the Grey Knight players are fighting so hard for it, but come on. The name of the rule is Rites of TELEPORTATION, so RAI is obvious and after careful examination of the RAW the limitation of RoT to NSF units prevents inclusion of the drop pod (or any other deepstriking transport for that matter).

Claiming the "combined unit" argument is weak since the area of the rulebook that mentions combined units is not granting special permission for detachment rules from one faction to apply to an additional faction. Although an argument might be made for ICs since the rulebook does say that they become a part of the unit for all intents and purposes, no such statement is made concerning transports - it only says that you have permission to roll for them together but not that special rules for the unit inside are conferred to the transport.

Only a Quickjager would think that it would work.

It's worth mentioning that RoT is not a special rule - it is a Command Benefit.

You are not rolling for the purifiers to come in.

You are rolling for a drop pod to arrive that has embarked models with it in deep strike reserves.

You get to roll 1 die for all of them to come in, but are subject to the rules of the units actually coming in.

for example, the drop pod does not have a way to DS in using RoT so you may not use RoT to bring it in.



also command benefits are special rules.

claiming RoT transfers to the transport when the rules clearly say no such thing, is silly.

Its like claiming if you have haywire on a model inside a transport, the transport has haywire.

Or if you put a model with DS inside a rhino, the rhino can DS since its a combined roll.

no rules support this point.

blaktoof wrote:
You are not rolling for the purifiers to come in.

You are rolling for a drop pod to arrive that has embarked models with it in deep strike reserves.

You get to roll 1 die for all of them to come in, but are subject to the rules of the units actually coming in.

for example, the drop pod does not have a way to DS in using RoT so you may not use RoT to bring it in.



also command benefits are special rules.

claiming RoT transfers to the transport when the rules clearly say no such thing, is silly.

Its like claiming if you have haywire on a model inside a transport, the transport has haywire.

Or if you put a model with DS inside a rhino, the rhino can DS since its a combined roll.

no rules support this point.

You are rolling for the purifiers - in the combined unit entry, it specifically states you can roll for the Unit or the transport/independent character, and then they all come in.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You are rolling for the purifiers - in the combined unit entry, it specifically states you can roll for the Unit or the transport/independent character, and then they all come in.

Shenanigans! The BRB actualy says "...when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle. "

Its says "and/or" not "or". The trouble with that is "and/or" is an incredibly inappropriate conjunction to use. Its has essentially no useful meaning in the English language. In this case the sentence in the BRB means all of the following simultaneously.

...when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and its Independent Character.
...when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and its Transport vehicle.
...when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit or its Independent Character.
...when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit or its Transport vehicle.

Which takes presidence? The "and" or the "or"? If as you suggest the "or" is what matters then yes, the purifiers are entitled to a role on turn 1, and a successful role will essentially drag the drop pod in with the purifiers. However, if the "and" takes presidence the the purifiers roll on tuirn 1 is essentially forfeit because the drop pod is not entitled to a role that turn making it impossible use a single dice to make both roles.

The real bitch is that neither take presidence. They are both equally true and proper interpretations of the RAW at the same time. That's why I think its time to look at the RAI and as far as I can recall when you have combined units with different deployment options you are only able to use the options shared by all members of the unit.

Essentialy this boils down to an opinion measuring contest because some dick-hole at GW used "and/or".

And/or, it implies a choice. The player who is making the roll can make that choice.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Essentialy this boils down to an opinion measuring contest because some dick-hole at GW used "and/or".

You're over thinking that one a bit, it's appropriate terminology.

Since its a combined unit, the unit in question must have something attached. Either IC's, a transport, or both.

This is your and/or

It's either IC's or Transport
Or it's IC's and Transport.

If it's neither, it's not a combined unit, so you're looking at the wrong rule.

and/or is perfectly fine in this case.

That's still not fulfilling the requirements for Drop Pod Assault, which requires remaining Drop Pods to be rolled for as normal.

Rolling on turn one just because you have Purifiers embarked upon it is not "as normal".

You make a roll for a unit OR its transport. That same wording is one of the possible outcomes when you extrapolate the and/or out from the reserves section. Or are just some of those results okay, and the ones that debunk your position you just try to sweep under the carpet?



You aren't rolloing for the drop pod, you are rolling for the purifiers, because you are specifically allowed to just roll for them in a combined unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, even if you were somehow obligitaed to roll for the entire combined unit, it is "normal" to bring purifiers in on turn one with a successful reserves roll, so it would be "normal" for them to bring in their transport.

And if you roll for the Purifiers and the Drop Pod comes along with them you are not rolling for the Drop Pod as normal. You are not rolling for the Drop Pod at all by that argument, which violates Drop Pod Assault either way.

siege2142 wrote:
You make a roll for a unit OR its transport.

No, you're rolling for the unit and/or tranport/IC's.

If it has a transport, you're rolling for unit AND transport. Not just one of them.

That's not how it reads raw. Raw, it says roll for the unit AND/OR transport AND/OR ic's.

And just because dpa reminds you about the reserve rules doesn't mean you are required to use that specific rule over any other.

A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.

- from deep strike and transports.


the transport is deep striking, regardless of if the squad inside has it or not, for a drop pod. Is the drop pod part of the NSF? No? Then it does not have access to rites of teleportation.


for combined roll you get 1 roll but it is a roll for a combined unit, you do not have permission to ignore the restrictions of the transport for the unit, nor do you have the permission to apply special rules from the unit to the transport within the rules for combined roll.

Even if you make 1 roll and can do it for either, which it does not state, you have no actual permission to extend the special rules from one to the other. As such if you do so, and claim the Drop Pod is coming in using a special rule it does not have nor has access to [rites of teleportation] you are either rules lawyering or cheating.

If you can show where it gives permission for you to extend rules that modify how one part of a unit arrives, to another part of the "combined unit" you would have a basis for discussion, as it is there is no basis for discussion on the rules. There is simply the rules now allowing this for permission, and some people discussing what they personally feel is "implied". It is as silly as claiming you can embark on a titan and DS the titan if the unit embarked has deep strike because combined rolls imply you can do it because somehow you are claiming the unit is arriving from reserves and gets to bring the other units. Which is not what combined rules states, it states you make 1 roll for the units arriving together. There is no permission to ignore any of the units restrictions on how/when they arrive.

siege2142 wrote:
That's not how it reads raw. Raw, it says roll for the unit AND/OR transport AND/OR ic's.

And just because dpa reminds you about the reserve rules doesn't mean you are required to use that specific rule over any other.

It says, "The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally."

You've insisted that the Drop Pod is not being rolled for and that it is the Purifiers being rolled for and the Drop Pod just happens to come along, and yet Drop Pod Assault (which by taking a Drop Pod must be followed) requires you to roll for the Drop Pod, and indeed, "as normal". Even if you do roll for the Drop Pod and somehow manage to transfer Rites of Teleportation to it (which you have not illustrated), Rites of Teleportation is not how a Drop Pod is rolled for "as normal".

You are simply dodging rules at this point. You cannot ignore the rules for Drop Pod Assault to enable the interaction with Rites of Teleportation to work. There is one way these rules all interact together without breaking any of them, and that is by the Purifiers and Drop Pod being rolled for on turn two onwards.

I've sufficiently provided all the evidence a normal and sane person would need to understand how it works. Your refusals based on "nu-uh!" And "drop pods dont teleport" do nothing to add to the conversation.

siege2142 wrote:
I've sufficiently provided all the evidence a normal and sane person would need to understand how it works. Your refusals based on "nu-uh!" And "drop pods dont teleport" do nothing to add to the conversation.

I've never said either of those things, and your resorting to stating such, particularly in such a manner, is a pretty poor indictment of your motives here.

Indeed, you are the one resorting to "nuh-uh" by claiming the Drop Pod Assault rules don't need to be complied with as I've stated (and in fact quoted). Instead of belittling you for it however, I've simply asked you to back that up with rules as I have.

And I have. I've quoted both NSF and combined reserves where they are both clearly spelled out.

siege2142 wrote:
And I have. I've quoted both NSF and combined reserves where they are both clearly spelled out.

And yet you ignore Drop Pod Assault at your convenience with your own simple "nuh-uh!" while having the gall to claim I'm doing so.

I'm promoting an interaction between the three rules that keeps them all satisfied. You are not.

 grendel083 wrote:

siege2142 wrote:
You make a roll for a unit OR its transport.

No, you're rolling for the unit and/or tranport/IC's.

If it has a transport, you're rolling for unit AND transport. Not just one of them.

Thats the problem with "and/or" being used. Its not clear if they want you to roll for the unit OR the transport, or if you should be rolling for the unit AND the transport. The use of "and/or" suggests that both are the correct methods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Essentialy this boils down to an opinion measuring contest because some dick-hole at GW used "and/or".

You're over thinking that one a bit, it's appropriate terminology.

Since its a combined unit, the unit in question must have something attached. Either IC's, a transport, or both.

This is your and/or

It's either IC's or Transport
Or it's IC's and Transport.

If it's neither, it's not a combined unit, so you're looking at the wrong rule.

and/or is perfectly fine in this case.

Not quite. The situation your describing would come from this...

...when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and its Independent Character and/or transport.

There are other... issues GW created when they chose to use a / to separate "Independent Character" and "transport" in that sentence but they are more forgivable because the context provides us with a clear understanding of what was intended.