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There is a big flaw in arguing this And/Or anyway:

Per the deep strike rules:

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"

So, as per your argument, you may:

A) "roll a single dice for the unit or its (...)Transport vehicle." You choose to roll for the Transport Vehicle.
B) "roll a single dice for the unit or its (...)Transport vehicle." You choose to roll for the Unit of purifiers.

You then have to follow, per RaW: "then deploy them as follows".
For "A", this is easy.... we all do it when we use Drop Pods.

Please explain to me clearly how "B" works? I though they disembarked from the Pod, meaning you're actually using "A" and rolling for the transport in any case (even with 'OR').
Are you placing 1 Purifier and then deploying the Pod in Coherency?

Kinda curious but if I have a unit that is embarked on a vehicle that does not have Deep Strike USR but the unit on it does have Deep Strike usr. I can make them a Combined Reserve Unit in Deep Strike Reserve and deep strike the vehicle that doesn't have Deep Strike just by saying "oh I'm rolling my reserve for the unit with Deep Strike not the vehicle but they both come in anyway"

The Deep Strike USR doesn't confer to the Vehicle but thats fine because it got into DSR because of the unit with Deep Strike is in there?

This is exactly the same as the Purifiers, the Drop Pod, and RoT.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

siege2142 wrote:
That's not how it reads raw. Raw, it says roll for the unit AND/OR transport AND/OR ic's.

And just because dpa reminds you about the reserve rules doesn't mean you are required to use that specific rule over any other.

It says, "The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally."

And what is normal for units with RoT?

Oberron wrote:
Kinda curious but if I have a unit that is embarked on a vehicle that does not have Deep Strike USR but the unit on it does have Deep Strike usr. I can make them a Combined Reserve Unit in Deep Strike Reserve and deep strike the vehicle that doesn't have Deep Strike just by saying "oh I'm rolling my reserve for the unit with Deep Strike not the vehicle but they both come in anyway"

The Deep Strike USR doesn't confer to the Vehicle but thats fine because it got into DSR because of the unit with Deep Strike is in there?

This is exactly the same as the Purifiers, the Drop Pod, and RoT.

Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USR does confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers.

As to "And/Or", this is a Boolean Logic statement, for determining an outcome based on criteria being met or not met. "And" is the requirement that both A and B are met. "Or" is the requirement that either A or B is met (but not both). "And/Or" is the requirement that either A, B, or A and B are met. Per the Combine Unit rules, the "And/Or" statement allows either the Unit, any ICs, the Transport, or the Unit + ICs + Transport to roll to arrive. Bool was a lawyer that invited Boolean Logic as a way to determine how cases can be won based on the criteria being met, such as evidence, eye witness testimony, motive, and/or allibey. Bool inadvertently also created the logic structure of modern day electronics, which relies on And gates, Or gates, And/Or gates, Nand gates (not And), and Nor gates (not Or). So, from a language point of view, the Combined Unit rules are quite clear on you the player being able to chose the Unit, any attached ICs, and/or the Transport to roll to arrive, with the collective units in the group arriving together based on that roll. This rule infact transcends any general requirements to roll separately for each unit.

Battle Brothers allows for units not of the same Faction to be treated as the same Faction for purposes of embarking on Transports, being targeted by powers, and/or benefiting from army abilities. Stupidly overpowered, but it's RAW.

Rites of Teleportation only requires that a unit in a NSF be in Deep Strike Reserves in order to qualify for the Turn 1 arrival benefit, as well as the Battle Focus for the Turn of arrival benefit. Rites does not include language restricting these benefits to only GK models, as seen in the newer BA codex, nor does it contain language restricting it to only NSF units (such as an added clause like "may not benefit if a Combined Unit").

The tactic in question is whether or not a unit of NSF Purifiers embarked on a SW Fast choice Drop Pod can roll to arrive by Deep Strike on Turn 1 if the unit did not already arrive via Drop Pod Assault?

Are the NSF Purifiers in Deep Strike Reserves? Yes, per the rules for Deep Striking a Transport.

Can the NSF Purifiers roll to arrive on Turn 1? Yes, per the rules for Rites of Teleportation.

Does this effect the Drop Pod? Yes, per the rules for Combined Units.

All conditions are met for this tactic to legally work.

On a side note: I actually don't use this tactic, because I play pure GK or GK/IK armies. However, I do support legal tactics supported by RAW.

2nd side note: Sorry about the late reply, I'm providing security for ESPN at the Super Bowl this week, so can't reply as frequently as "normal".

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USR does confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers.

Please stop making up rules.

"A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."

 BlackTalos wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USR does confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers.

Please stop making up rules.

"A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."

Nothing made up. You in fact just posted proof of implied permission. Congradulations!

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USR does confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers.

Please stop making up rules.

"A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."

Nothing made up. You in fact just posted proof of implied permission. Congradulations!

SJ

"A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."

The above never implies that the passengers get Deep Strike USR from their transport. That is completely made up.
Do you even understand the above phrase?

Transport can deep strike regardless of what passengers have = / = Passengers get DS conferred from the Transport.
Left is the actual RaW. Right is you completely making up rules out of non-existent "implications".

I am trying VERY hard not to consider your posts trolling, out of curtsey.....

redacted

Look at your own quote:

"A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."

Now look at mine:

"Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USR does confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers."

Do you understand what the word "confer" means? It means that while the passengers might not have the Deep Strike USR, the Transport with the USR will still Deep Strike and bring the passengers with it, and that the passengers still count as having arrived by Deep Strike. The passengers can't move after arriving other than to disembark or run, they can only snap fire Heavy Weapons due to having already "moved", and they have literally just arrived by Deep Strike! Without the Deep Strike USR! Because the Transport had the USR!

redacted by motyak
SJ

The passengers do not gain the deep strike rule though. Just because the transport is deep striking it doesn't mean that the occupants gain the rule.

The transport arrives from deep strike whilst the passengers arrived from reserves.

SGTPozy wrote:
The passengers do not gain the deep strike rule though. Just because the transport is deep striking it doesn't mean that the occupants gain the rule.

The transport arrives from deep strike whilst the passengers arrived from reserves.

They arrived from Deep Strike Reserves, explicitly. Because they both start the game in Deep Strike Reserves, and arrive from it using the Combined Units rules.

SGTPozy wrote:
The passengers do not gain the deep strike rule though. Just because the transport is deep striking it doesn't mean that the occupants gain the rule.

The transport arrives from deep strike whilst the passengers arrived from reserves.

The passengers were in Deep Strike Reserve with the Transport. The passengers arrived with the Transport by Deep Strike. Per the Deep Strike USR, Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserve are the same. While the passengers might not have the Deep Strike USR, the Transport does, and by Deep Striking, the Transport had conferred the Deep Strike rule to its passengers. Yes, the passengers arrived from Reserves. So did their Transport.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
redacted

Look at your own quote:

"A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."

Now look at mine:

"Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USR does confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers."

SJ

redacted
"A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."
Is a direct quote from the 40k 7th Edition Rulebook

redacted by motyak

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Oberron wrote:
Kinda curious but if I have a unit that is embarked on a vehicle that does not have Deep Strike USR but the unit on it does have Deep Strike usr. I can make them a Combined Reserve Unit in Deep Strike Reserve and deep strike the vehicle that doesn't have Deep Strike just by saying "oh I'm rolling my reserve for the unit with Deep Strike not the vehicle but they both come in anyway"

The Deep Strike USR doesn't confer to the Vehicle but thats fine because it got into DSR because of the unit with Deep Strike is in there?

This is exactly the same as the Purifiers, the Drop Pod, and RoT.

Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USR does confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers.

As to "And/Or", this is a Boolean Logic statement, for determining an outcome based on criteria being met or not met. "And" is the requirement that both A and B are met. "Or" is the requirement that either A or B is met (but not both). "And/Or" is the requirement that either A, B, or A and B are met. Per the Combine Unit rules, the "And/Or" statement allows either the Unit, any ICs, the Transport, or the Unit + ICs + Transport to roll to arrive. Bool was a lawyer that invited Boolean Logic as a way to determine how cases can be won based on the criteria being met, such as evidence, eye witness testimony, motive, and/or allibey. Bool inadvertently also created the logic structure of modern day electronics, which relies on And gates, Or gates, And/Or gates, Nand gates (not And), and Nor gates (not Or). So, from a language point of view, the Combined Unit rules are quite clear on you the player being able to chose the Unit, any attached ICs, and/or the Transport to roll to arrive, with the collective units in the group arriving together based on that roll. This rule infact transcends any general requirements to roll separately for each unit.

Battle Brothers allows for units not of the same Faction to be treated as the same Faction for purposes of embarking on Transports, being targeted by powers, and/or benefiting from army abilities. Stupidly overpowered, but it's RAW.

Rites of Teleportation only requires that a unit in a NSF be in Deep Strike Reserves in order to qualify for the Turn 1 arrival benefit, as well as the Battle Focus for the Turn of arrival benefit. Rites does not include language restricting these benefits to only GK models, as seen in the newer BA codex, nor does it contain language restricting it to only NSF units (such as an added clause like "may not benefit if a Combined Unit").

The tactic in question is whether or not a unit of NSF Purifiers embarked on a SW Fast choice Drop Pod can roll to arrive by Deep Strike on Turn 1 if the unit did not already arrive via Drop Pod Assault?

Are the NSF Purifiers in Deep Strike Reserves? Yes, per the rules for Deep Striking a Transport.

Can the NSF Purifiers roll to arrive on Turn 1? Yes, per the rules for Rites of Teleportation.

Does this effect the Drop Pod? Yes, per the rules for Combined Units.

All conditions are met for this tactic to legally work.

On a side note: I actually don't use this tactic, because I play pure GK or GK/IK armies. However, I do support legal tactics supported by RAW.

2nd side note: Sorry about the late reply, I'm providing security for ESPN at the Super Bowl this week, so can't reply as frequently as "normal".

SJ

this is not true.

a transport has permission to Deep strike even if the squad inside does not, the transport does not confer deep strike onto the unit inside.

This is in no way a tactic allowable within the rules.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
You are not rolling for the purifiers to come in.

You are rolling for a drop pod to arrive that has embarked models with it in deep strike reserves.

You get to roll 1 die for all of them to come in, but are subject to the rules of the units actually coming in.

for example, the drop pod does not have a way to DS in using RoT so you may not use RoT to bring it in.



also command benefits are special rules.

claiming RoT transfers to the transport when the rules clearly say no such thing, is silly.

Its like claiming if you have haywire on a model inside a transport, the transport has haywire.

Or if you put a model with DS inside a rhino, the rhino can DS since its a combined roll.

no rules support this point.

You are rolling for the purifiers - in the combined unit entry, it specifically states you can roll for the Unit or the transport/independent character, and then they all come in.

You are not rolling for the purifiers.

You are rolling for the combined unit, which is all the models in the unit(s) to arrive at the same time.

If this rule didnt exist and you embarked an unit on a transport you would have to roll for the transport and the unit separately and there is a very good chance both would not arrive at the same time. This rule exist to allow units that could normally arrive at a certain point in the game to arrive together. It does not give permission in any way to confer rules from one unit onto another within the combined reserves, nor does it give permission to ignore restrictions on how units can arrive together. Ie if you put an unit with DS in a rhino, you cannot roll for the unit to DS and bring the rhino. IE if you have deathwing terminators with DWA on turn 1 in a stormraven, they do not give DWA to the stormraven and allow it to arrive turn 1.

In the case of a transport

A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.

-from "Deep strike and Transports" in the BRB

When you make the combined roll for the an unit embarked in a DSing transport you are making 1 roll for them all to arrive, you are not making 1 roll based solely on the unit inside to arrive- there is no such rule anywhere at all nor any support for it.

In the above case of a DSing transport, you have for example a Drop Pod and a Squad of purifiers embarked in it. They are held in DS reserves. The transport arrives by DS, as it is the one following the rules "arriving by deepstrike" You roll for its arrival from reserves..

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive..

You do not roll for the purifiers. You are not placing the purifiers you are placing the transport, it is the one arriving by deep strike as per the RAW.

There is no permission for the drop pod to use RoT, none.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

siege2142 wrote:
That's not how it reads raw. Raw, it says roll for the unit AND/OR transport AND/OR ic's.

And just because dpa reminds you about the reserve rules doesn't mean you are required to use that specific rule over any other.

It says, "The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally."

And what is normal for units with RoT?

If you accept that the roll is for the Drop Pod (as Drop Pod Assault requires) then that's irrelevant; you cannot make a Rites of Teleportation roll for the Drop Pod because it's not a unit in the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment.

blaktoof wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Oberron wrote:
Kinda curious but if I have a unit that is embarked on a vehicle that does not have Deep Strike USR but the unit on it does have Deep Strike usr. I can make them a Combined Reserve Unit in Deep Strike Reserve and deep strike the vehicle that doesn't have Deep Strike just by saying "oh I'm rolling my reserve for the unit with Deep Strike not the vehicle but they both come in anyway"

The Deep Strike USR doesn't confer to the Vehicle but thats fine because it got into DSR because of the unit with Deep Strike is in there?

This is exactly the same as the Purifiers, the Drop Pod, and RoT.

Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USR does confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers.

As to "And/Or", this is a Boolean Logic statement, for determining an outcome based on criteria being met or not met. "And" is the requirement that both A and B are met. "Or" is the requirement that either A or B is met (but not both). "And/Or" is the requirement that either A, B, or A and B are met. Per the Combine Unit rules, the "And/Or" statement allows either the Unit, any ICs, the Transport, or the Unit + ICs + Transport to roll to arrive. Bool was a lawyer that invited Boolean Logic as a way to determine how cases can be won based on the criteria being met, such as evidence, eye witness testimony, motive, and/or allibey. Bool inadvertently also created the logic structure of modern day electronics, which relies on And gates, Or gates, And/Or gates, Nand gates (not And), and Nor gates (not Or). So, from a language point of view, the Combined Unit rules are quite clear on you the player being able to chose the Unit, any attached ICs, and/or the Transport to roll to arrive, with the collective units in the group arriving together based on that roll. This rule infact transcends any general requirements to roll separately for each unit.

Battle Brothers allows for units not of the same Faction to be treated as the same Faction for purposes of embarking on Transports, being targeted by powers, and/or benefiting from army abilities. Stupidly overpowered, but it's RAW.

Rites of Teleportation only requires that a unit in a NSF be in Deep Strike Reserves in order to qualify for the Turn 1 arrival benefit, as well as the Battle Focus for the Turn of arrival benefit. Rites does not include language restricting these benefits to only GK models, as seen in the newer BA codex, nor does it contain language restricting it to only NSF units (such as an added clause like "may not benefit if a Combined Unit").

The tactic in question is whether or not a unit of NSF Purifiers embarked on a SW Fast choice Drop Pod can roll to arrive by Deep Strike on Turn 1 if the unit did not already arrive via Drop Pod Assault?

Are the NSF Purifiers in Deep Strike Reserves? Yes, per the rules for Deep Striking a Transport.

Can the NSF Purifiers roll to arrive on Turn 1? Yes, per the rules for Rites of Teleportation.

Does this effect the Drop Pod? Yes, per the rules for Combined Units.

All conditions are met for this tactic to legally work.

On a side note: I actually don't use this tactic, because I play pure GK or GK/IK armies. However, I do support legal tactics supported by RAW.

2nd side note: Sorry about the late reply, I'm providing security for ESPN at the Super Bowl this week, so can't reply as frequently as "normal".

SJ

this is not true.

a transport has permission to Deep strike even if the squad inside does not, the transport does not confer deep strike onto the unit inside.

This is in no way a tactic allowable within the rules.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
You are not rolling for the purifiers to come in.

You are rolling for a drop pod to arrive that has embarked models with it in deep strike reserves.

You get to roll 1 die for all of them to come in, but are subject to the rules of the units actually coming in.

for example, the drop pod does not have a way to DS in using RoT so you may not use RoT to bring it in.



also command benefits are special rules.

claiming RoT transfers to the transport when the rules clearly say no such thing, is silly.

Its like claiming if you have haywire on a model inside a transport, the transport has haywire.

Or if you put a model with DS inside a rhino, the rhino can DS since its a combined roll.

no rules support this point.

You are rolling for the purifiers - in the combined unit entry, it specifically states you can roll for the Unit or the transport/independent character, and then they all come in.

You are not rolling for the purifiers.

You are rolling for the combined unit, which is all the models in the unit(s) to arrive at the same time.

If this rule didnt exist and you embarked an unit on a transport you would have to roll for the transport and the unit separately and there is a very good chance both would not arrive at the same time. This rule exist to allow units that could normally arrive at a certain point in the game to arrive together. [b] It does not give permission in any way to confer rules from one unit onto another within the combined reserves, nor does it give permission to ignore restrictions on how units can arrive together. Ie if you put an unit with DS in a rhino, you cannot roll for the unit to DS and bring the rhino. IE if you have deathwing terminators with DWA on turn 1 in a stormraven, they do not give DWA to the stormraven and allow it to arrive turn 1.

In the case of a transport

A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.

-from "Deep strike and Transports" in the BRB

When you make the combined roll for the an unit embarked in a DSing transport you are making 1 roll for them all to arrive, you are not making 1 roll based solely on the unit inside to arrive- there is no such rule anywhere at all nor any support for it.

In the above case of a DSing transport, you have for example a Drop Pod and a Squad of purifiers embarked in it. They are held in DS reserves. The transport arrives by DS, as it is the one following the rules "arriving by deepstrike" You roll for its arrival from reserves..

[b]Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive..

You do not roll for the purifiers. You are not placing the purifiers you are placing the transport, it is the one arriving by deep strike as per the RAW.

There is no permission for the drop pod to use RoT, none.

Look at that emphasized bold line. "This rule allows units that could arrive at a CERTAIN POINT to arrive together". The purifiers can arrive at the certain point of turn one, thanks to being in ds reserve and NSF.

So glad that you are finally starting to see reason and are willing to not bestubburn in thinking your way is the only way raw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, my mistake blaktoof, I didn't read the rest of your post till now. Way to be willfully ignorant and one of the biggest trolls on the forums.

siege2142 wrote:
Oh, my mistake blaktoof, I didn't read the rest of your post till now. Way to be willfully ignorant and one of the biggest trolls on the forums.

You've done this several times already and it's tiresome. Instead of attacking the poster try attacking their argument, addressing their points with counterpoints. That's how a robust discussion and reasonable argument is meant to go.

I did, see the first half of that post where I quoted him saying "This rule exist to allow units that could normally arrive at a certain point in the game to arrive together."

He then went on toargue counter to that point.

The problem with trying to use RoT on purifiers in an allied drop pod is that the purifiers are not allowed to arrive by deep strike. I know that this has been said several times, but it seems like it's being ignored.

The purifiers are in reserves, yes, but they are not able to deepstrike because they lack the deepstrike USR. You put them in a drop pod and they will go into deepstrike reserves with the pod, but only because the pod can deepstrike.

If you want to roll for the purifiers and not the pod, you can't put them in deepstrike reserves. If you want to roll for the pod and the unit inside, you have to roll for the pod - not the purifiers - and the pod does not benefit from the RoT because it is not a part of the NSF detachment.

Just because you are allowed to make a single roll for the entire unit does not give you express permission to use the passenger's special rules to bring the pod in early - it only gives you permission to roll one dice for everything.

In this case, if you want to deepstrike, you will have to use the pod's rules for deployment, not the purifier's rules for deployment.

siege2142 wrote:
I did, see the first half of that post where I quoted him saying "This rule exist to allow units that could normally arrive at a certain point in the game to arrive together."

He then went on toargue counter to that point.

Earlier in the thread you accused me of making posts that add nothing to the conversation.

Quoting a lengthy post, making a brief counter point (without explanation and which does not actually address the full post quoted) and finising it with calling the person a troll truly does add nothing to the discussion.

You are cherry picking rules to your convenience and patently ignoring where we point out to you how the game mechanics fail when your reasoning is adopted.

These are the points you have to overcome, in summary:

Rites of Teleportation allows you to make reserve rolls on turn one for units in a NSF Detachment which are in Deep Strike Reserves.

Drop Pod Assault allows you to embark units upon a drop pod, which places them into Deep Strike Reserves along with the Drop Pod, and requires you to roll for the half of your Drop Pods that does not arrive on turn one as per Drop Pod Assault as normal.

Combined Reserve Units requires you to make one roll for the unit and/or attached IC/transport.

You must make one roll for the Purifiers/Drop Pod combined reserve unit.

Drop Pod Assault requires that the Drop Pod be rolled for as normal.

Drop Pod Assault in combination with the rules for Deep Strike requires that the Drop Pod be placed on the board first (because otherwise the Purifiers have nothing to disembark from).

Making a roll for the Purifiers violates Drop Pod Assault's requirement that the Drop Pod be rolled for as normal.

Making a roll for the Purifiers violates the rules for Deep Strike in combination with Drop Pod Assault, as the Purifiers must disembark from the Drop Pod, and cannot therefore be placed before the Drop Pod.

The Drop Pod therefore must be rolled for, and Rites of Teleportation does not apply to rollign for the Drop Pod because it is not a unit in a NSF Detachment.

You quote the combined reserves rule, but you lack understanding in its meaning. You make one roll for the unit and/OR its transport/ic.

The arrival of your remaining drop pods are rolled for normally. Normally would include rolling for a unit imbarked inside of them.

NSF does not require a unit to be deep striking to be able to roll for reserves on turn one, it only requires they be in deep strike reserves, which they are thanks to the drop pod.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would you argue that if I had a +1 bonus Tony reserve rolls, I wouldn't be able to use it to modify my reserve roll for the drop PD, because that wouldn't be "normal"?

siege2142 wrote:
You quote the combined reserves rule, but you lack understanding in its meaning. You make one roll for the unit and/OR its transport/ic.

The arrival of your remaining drop pods are rolled for normally. Normally would include rolling for a unit imbarked inside of them.

NSF does not require a unit to be deep striking to be able to roll for reserves on turn one, it only requires they be in deep strike reserves, which they are thanks to the drop pod.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would you argue that if I had a +1 bonus Tony reserve rolls, I wouldn't be able to use it to modify my reserve roll for the drop PD, because that wouldn't be "normal"?

If your +1 bonus was just for your NSF detachment units, yes. Yes I would.

Also, when you make a combined reserves roll, there is nothing that states the element of the you it you roll for has tone placed first, it says they arrive together. Which means, when things have to happen simultaneously, the controlling player chooses the order.

There is a precedence for this in the shooting phase. When a unit shoots, all weapons are fired at the same time, but the controlling player chooses weapons to fire and resolve one at a time.

siege2142 wrote:
You quote the combined reserves rule, but you lack understanding in its meaning. You make one roll for the unit and/OR its transport/ic.

That's not in dispute. It's the other rules and their mechanics which necessitate that the Drop Pod must be rolled for.

The arrival of your remaining drop pods are rolled for normally. Normally would include rolling for a unit imbarked inside of them.

And yet the mechanics fail if you make your combined roll for the Purifiers.

NSF does not require a unit to be deep striking to be able to roll for reserves on turn one, it only requires they be in deep strike reserves, which they are thanks to the drop pod.

That's great, but you still have to make the combined roll under the Drop Pod, not the Purifiers.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would you argue that if I had a +1 bonus Tony reserve rolls, I wouldn't be able to use it to modify my reserve roll for the drop PD, because that wouldn't be "normal"?

Only if I first actually considered it and also wanted to get into a robust discussion specifically in terms of RAW. I don't play actual games under strict RAW, though.

Regardless, in this case what is normal for Purifiers embarked on a Drop Pod does not apply to the Drop Pod itself. It is the Purifiers being embarked on the Drop Pod who gain the benefit of Rites of Teleportation (as they are in Deep Strike Reserves by virtue of being embarked) but you still need to be able to roll for the Purifiers and you cannot - you must roll for the Drop Pod.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

siege2142 wrote:
Also, when you make a combined reserves roll, there is nothing that states the element of the you it you roll for has tone placed first, it says they arrive together. Which means, when things have to happen simultaneously, the controlling player chooses the order.

The Drop Pod must be placed first, because the Purifiers are required to immediately disembark from it. Therefore the Drop Pod must be the unit rolled for the combined reserve unit.

siege2142 wrote:
Also, when you make a combined reserves roll, there is nothing that states the element of the you it you roll for has tone placed first, it says they arrive together. Which means, when things have to happen simultaneously, the controlling player chooses the order.

There is a precedence for this in the shooting phase. When a unit shoots, all weapons are fired at the same time, but the controlling player chooses weapons to fire and resolve one at a time.

Saying they arrive together is a little misleading. The troops are not placed on the table simultaneously with the transport. The transport deepstrikes onto the table. You place the transport, then you roll scatter dice, then after placing the transport in it's final location, the troops disembark. This is why you have to use the transport's rules for deployment and not the unit inside.

If I put deepstriking or outflanking troops in a transport, the transport is not given permission do deploy by the passenger's special rules - with the exception of when the transport is a dedicated transport, and then only outflanking or infiltrating is expressly allowed (AFAIK). So saying that because you roll for them together, you get to apply your detachment specific special rule to a non-dedicated transport is more than a little difficult to believe, it's just wrong.

I did not argue against myself.

The combined roll is 1 roll for the units combined to arrive together, but there is no permission to use the rules from one unit to benefit the others who are not allowed to use the rules and could not normally arrive then. It is not 1 roll using the rules for one of the units to allow the rest to arrive, and there is no such rules support for that.

and the argument that the purifiers are allowed to arrive turn 1 is false. They are allowed to start on the board, if you put them in reserves on their own they would not be deep striking and would not be using RoT.

When you roll for the combined unit to arrive, are you putting down a model from the NSF detachment or a space wolves/BA detachment and following the rules under "arriving by deepstrike"?

obviously its not an unit from the NSF detachment that you are placing and rolling for.

blaktoof wrote:
The combined roll is 1 roll for the units combined to arrive together, but there is no permission to use the rules from one unit to benefit the others who are not allowed to use the rules and could not normally arrive then. It is not 1 roll using the rules for one of the units to allow the rest to arrive, and there is no such rules support for that.

The marked passage is an incorrect statement. The Combined Unit rules provides permission via the clause regarding rolling once for the unit and/or attached ICs and Transports. Further, Deep Striking Transport rules provide permission to allow embarked passengers to arrive via Deep Strike regardless of whether or not the passengers have the Deep Strike USR. Those are two specific examples of rules that provide permission for abilities of one or more units to benefit another. A third example is Battle Brothers.

and the argument that the purifiers are allowed to arrive turn 1 is false. They are allowed to start on the board, if you put them in reserves on their own they would not be deep striking and would not be using RoT.

When you roll for the combined unit to arrive, are you putting down a model from the NSF detachment or a space wolves/BA detachment and following the rules under "arriving by deepstrike"?

obviously its not an unit from the NSF detachment that you are placing and rolling for.

Another set of incorrect statements. The only conditions that need to be met to gain the benefits of Rites of Teleportation is for the unit to 1) be a member of a Nemesis Strike Force, and 2) be in Deep Strike Reseves. A unit of Purifiers in a NSF meets criteria 1. Being Battle Brothers with a detachment of Space Wolves or Blood Angels that take non-dedicated Drop Pods allows the NSF Purifiers the option to start the game embarked on one or more of those Fast choice, non-dedicated Drop Pods per the Drop Pod Assault rules, which meets criteria 2. Combined Unit rules allows the controlling player to roll to arrive once for the Purifiers, the Drop Pod, and any attached ICs, which can be as soon as Turn 1 due to the Purifiers meeting criteria 1 and 2.

In order prove that NSF Purifiers cannot use Rites while embarked on a Battle Brother non-Dedicated Drop Pod, you would have to cite an actual rule that specifically blocks it from occurring due to the overwhelming permissions that exist which allow it to occur, the permissions being Battle Brothers, Combined Units, and the non-exclusive wording of Rites.

SJ

Im not sure if you are serious at this point.

However I will respond as if you are.

the marked passage is not incorrect. There is no permission in combined reserves to ignore restrictions on one unit arriving because another unit int he combined reserves has a different rule that the other unit does not.

and regardless

When you are performing "arriving by deepstrike"

Which model are you rolling for when you place the drop pod on the table and roll scatter? Which detachment is it in?

and lastly your final comment, RoT benefits units arriving from deep strike reserves with run and shoot, the rule you are trying to use that lets you arrive turn one on a 3+ does not state anything about deep strike reserves in that part of the rule.

everything you are saying is blatantly false.

Blaktoof, buy the grey knights book and read the rule. Until then, please stop spamming class, muddled rules as truth. Thank you.

NSF says that "a unit from the NSF that is in deep strike reserves may attempt to come in from deep strike reserves from turn one on the roll of a 3+". It specifically mentions deep strike reserve in the grey knights codex in the NSF rule.

Just because someone rolls for the purifiers to arrive from a combined unit does not mean that the puridpfiers have to hit the table first. That is why they are a combined unit, I can place the pod first, resolve, then move on to the purifiers.

so you roll for the purifiers to arrive and place the Drop pod unit from a different detachment that does not have the rule that lets models from the NSF arrive turn 1...

makes no sense, and has no rules support.

Also I have quoted the rule, so maybe you aren't the only person who managed to acquire a GK codex

You edited your statement to remove the quote I was talking about, and are now trying to play it cool.

Regardless, Jeffersonian, siege2142, and I have quoted rules allowing purifiers and pods to arrive on turn one. We've all shown the permission to roll for a specific part of a combined unit, we've shown that a combined unit arrives together. When a combined unit arrives together, you then deploy that combined unit.

Neither you nor talons have shown any solid evidence that rules as currently written do not work that way.