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2015/01/28 02:00:24
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
blaktoof wrote: Im not sure if you are serious at this point.
However I will respond as if you are.
the marked passage is not incorrect. There is no permission in combined reserves to ignore restrictions on one unit arriving because another unit int he combined reserves has a different rule that the other unit does not.
and regardless
When you are performing "arriving by deepstrike"
Which model are you rolling for when you place the drop pod on the table and roll scatter? Which detachment is it in?
and lastly your final comment, RoT benefits units arriving from deep strike reserves with run and shoot, the rule you are trying to use that lets you arrive turn one on a 3+ does not state anything about deep strike reserves in that part of the rule.
everything you are saying is blatantly false.
You must be mad, because your syntex is horrible.
Let me attempt to instruct you on basic reading comprehension what it comes to game rules, specifically Warhammer 40,000. The rules start off with general concepts to build the basic structure of the game, sometimes referred to as the core rules, general rules, main rules, or basic rules. As the rules become more specific, or advance, in concept, it is sometimes referred to is advance rules, more specific rules, or special rules.
The argument we are chasing our tails on is based on basic rules informing us on Reserves and how to deploy from Reserves. A more advanced concept is Deep Striking, how to Deep Strike, who can Deep Strike, etc.. An even more advance set of rules is how Transports interact with Deep Strike, how units with attacked Independent Characters interact with the rules in general and in specific such as Deep Strike, etc..
When basic rules inform us on restrictions, yet another rule informs us of specific exceptions, those exceptions are sometimes referred to as permission. Permission can be given to do something in the game you normally could not do, and occasionally an even more specific restriction will override a permission in very specific instances, to which another even more specific permission might bypass the previous restriction, and so on.
And so it is with our argument.
We have permission to embark Battle Brother GK Purifiers onto SW non-dedicated Drop Pods, which normally cannot be done without the permission given via the Detachment rules and Battle Brother rules. See where I going with this?
We have permission for a combined unit of non-faction models to start in Reserves together, to roll to arrive together, to occupy the same space, and share certain benefits either directly or indirectly, all through a series of restrictions and permissions.
Back to our argument.
The NSF Purifier unit has permission to enter Deep Strike Reserves via being embarked on a Transport that must start in Deep Strike Reserves. Because the NSF Purifiers now meet a specific set of restrictions from its own detachment, permission is granted to use a benefit named Rites of Teleportation, which modifies the the turn at which the a Purifiers may enter play via Deep Strike. Thankfully, the rules support this new arrival time by giving the controlling player permission to roll to enter for the Purifiers and the Drop Pod at the same time using a single die roll per the set of rules known as Combined Reserved Units. Also thankfully, the rules grant the player the option of choosing the unit of the two to roll for, which means the player has permission to roll to arrive on a Turn 1, bypassing the usual restriction of not being able to rolling until Turn 2.
This is how a permissive rule set works, and this is why the tactic in question does work. This is also why the attempts to disprove the tactic fail, because a more specific restriction has not been produced to counter the permissions noted. When you say, "it doesn't work because the more general rule says so," and we tell you, "yes, however, this more specific rule says we can," we aren't making the false statement; You are.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
2015/01/28 02:16:03
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
Everyone cool it or else more warnings will be handed out. Argue politely or don't argue at all. Argue politely or you may need to have a holiday from arguing on dakka dakka at all
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2015/01/28 02:24:22
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
you still have yet to show any rule which allows for you to give the units in the combined reserves roll all the special rules that only apply to one of the units.
As this is now 6 pages, perhaps there is a problem in understanding.
Lets use an example.
Imagine I have an unit, and I put an IC with it. The unit moves 6" a turn. The IC moves 12" a turn. The unit+IC is now one unit, but they move 6" a turn not 12" You could reverse the IC and the units movement and have the same result.
lets look at the purifiers.
Do not have DS, but have rites of teleportation.
Drop Pod, does have DS, has DSA, and units can embark on it. It may deep strike even if the units embarked cannot.
You can make 1 roll to have both arrive. You claim you have permission to roll turn 1 for the pod using RoT despite no rule actually stating so, nor the rules for RoT stating they confer to a transport an unit with the special rule is embarked upon if the transport does not have it.
So yes the models in the NSF detachment have the RoT special rule, but that does not mean they can always use it. Example. A land raider bought from the NSF does not have DS, but still has the Rites of teleportation rule, even though it has no way to use it. Embarking an unit with DS does not allow you to rollow for the land raider to DS despite them being in combined reserves and the embarked unit being "allowed to DS turn 1 because RoT"
you are still limited by the models in the "combined" unit that do not have access to do things other models may be able to do, because there is no permission to ignore their restrictions, and there is no permission to make the roll based on the special rules of just one of the units in the 'combined unit'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 02:30:27
2015/01/28 02:42:26
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
you still have yet to show any rule which allows for you to give the units in the combined reserves roll all the special rules that only apply to one of the units.
As this is now 6 pages, perhaps there is a problem in understanding.
Lets use an example.
Imagine I have an unit, and I put an IC with it. The unit moves 6" a turn. The IC moves 12" a turn. The unit+IC is now one unit, but they move 6" a turn not 12" You could reverse the IC and the units movement and have the same result.
lets look at the purifiers.
Do not have DS, but have rites of teleportation.
Drop Pod, does have DS, has DSA, and units can embark on it. It may deep strike even if the units embarked cannot.
You can make 1 roll to have both arrive. You claim you have permission to roll turn 1 for the pod using RoT despite no rule actually stating so, nor the rules for RoT stating they confer to a transport an unit with the special rule is embarked upon if the transport does not have it.
So yes the models in the NSF detachment have the RoT special rule, but that does not mean they can always use it. Example. A land raider bought from the NSF does not have DS, but still has the Rites of teleportation rule, even though it has no way to use it. Embarking an unit with DS does not allow you to rollow for the land raider to DS despite them being in combined reserves and the embarked unit being "allowed to DS turn 1 because RoT"
you are still limited by the models in the "combined" unit that do not have access to do things other models may be able to do, because there is no permission to ignore their restrictions, and there is no permission to make the roll based on the special rules of just one of the units in the 'combined unit'
Please see my previous posts for all of the relevent rules, restrictions, and interactions. Chosing not to read the posts mentioned is on you, not me.
By the way, asking me to re-post citations I've and others have already posted numerous times in this very thread does not alleviate you from the burden of providing your own citations to support your premiss. My case is solidly support by written rules; please support your case the same if you wish to be taken seriously.
SJ
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/28 02:49:13
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
2015/01/28 02:42:45
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
greytalon666 wrote: Movement and combined reserves are to different rules. They have NOTHING to do with each other.
It was a valid if misguided attempt. Movement does have restrictions and permissions, yet there are no overriding permissions that bypass the restriction on all models in the unit move at the speed of the slowest model (called "Flank Speed", if using naval terms).
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
2015/01/28 02:58:27
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
you still have yet to show any rule which allows for you to give the units in the combined reserves roll all the special rules that only apply to one of the units.
As this is now 6 pages, perhaps there is a problem in understanding.
Lets use an example.
Imagine I have an unit, and I put an IC with it. The unit moves 6" a turn. The IC moves 12" a turn. The unit+IC is now one unit, but they move 6" a turn not 12" You could reverse the IC and the units movement and have the same result.
lets look at the purifiers.
Do not have DS, but have rites of teleportation.
Drop Pod, does have DS, has DSA, and units can embark on it. It may deep strike even if the units embarked cannot.
You can make 1 roll to have both arrive. You claim you have permission to roll turn 1 for the pod using RoT despite no rule actually stating so, nor the rules for RoT stating they confer to a transport an unit with the special rule is embarked upon if the transport does not have it.
So yes the models in the NSF detachment have the RoT special rule, but that does not mean they can always use it. Example. A land raider bought from the NSF does not have DS, but still has the Rites of teleportation rule, even though it has no way to use it. Embarking an unit with DS does not allow you to rollow for the land raider to DS despite them being in combined reserves and the embarked unit being "allowed to DS turn 1 because RoT"
you are still limited by the models in the "combined" unit that do not have access to do things other models may be able to do, because there is no permission to ignore their restrictions, and there is no permission to make the roll based on the special rules of just one of the units in the 'combined unit'
Please see my previous posts for all of the relevent rules, restrictions, and interactions. Chosing not to read the posts mentioned is on you, not me.
By the way, asking me to re-post citations I've and others have already posted numerous times in this very thread does not alleviate you from the burden of providing your own citations to support your premiss. My case is solidly support by written rules; please support your case the same if you wish to be taken seriously.
SJ
its amazing how in denial of what has happened in this thread you are.
you have posted 0 rules showing that you have permission to let units benefit from a special rule they do not have, when rolling for a combined reserves roll.
you have posted 0 rules showing that you can ignore the restrictions of how models are allowed to arrive in combined reserves.
and yet you claim not only that you have, but there is obviously permission because one of the units has the rule.
This thread has gone from firstly claiming permission and things are RAW without a single quote, to people claiming its implied therefore its a rule, back to "they have the rule so the drop pod that doesn't have it can use it because its 1 roll" which doesn't have any actual validity or meaning as a rule.
despite I am replying to you, this is not just to you but to the few people in this thread who are very vocal that this is a valid rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 02:59:07
2015/01/28 03:14:03
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.
Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Formation that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this Formation can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.
Of course, Talos/Toof could have just looked those up them/himself.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
2015/01/28 05:31:55
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
I make a distinction between making a reserve roll for a unit in the NSF Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve versus making a combined reserve unit roll for a unit in the NSF Detachment embarked upon a unit not in the NSF Detachment in Deep Strike Reserve. You do not. There are a variety of secondary arguments which vary in their merit, but that's the core of the issue for me and I suppose it's just too bad if you don't think it's reasonable.
2015/01/28 09:26:55
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
greytalon666 wrote: You edited your statement to remove the quote I was talking about, and are now trying to play it cool.
Regardless, Jeffersonian, siege2142, and I have quoted rules allowing purifiers and pods to arrive on turn one. We've all shown the permission to roll for a specific part of a combined unit, we've shown that a combined unit arrives together. When a combined unit arrives together, you then deploy that combined unit.
Neither you nor talons have shown any solid evidence that rules as currently written do not work that way.
You have shown an assumption to roll for a specific part of a combined Unit (Due to unclear And/Or wording). I agree that you can read it that way.
But rolling for the Purifiers has a problem, this rule:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
What does the "them" underline above refer to? The Unit you rolled for, Purifiers. Can you place them as following those rules? no.
Your argument fails and you may not roll for the purifiers. Unless they are Deep Striking on their own.
siege2142 wrote: Also, when you make a combined reserves roll, there is nothing that states the element of the you it you roll for has tone placed first, it says they arrive together. Which means, when things have to happen simultaneously, the controlling player chooses the order.
So... You are saying the purifiers can Disembark before the Pod Deep is placed? Correct?
Let me just give you some Rules from the codex:
Transport Capacity: (...) Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark.
I hope that the highlighted above can show you why your statement is incorrect.
I make a distinction between making a reserve roll for a unit in the NSF Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve versus making a combined reserve unit roll for a unit in the NSF Detachment embarked upon a unit not in the NSF Detachment in Deep Strike Reserve. You do not. There are a variety of secondary arguments which vary in their merit, but that's the core of the issue for me and I suppose it's just too bad if you don't think it's reasonable.
Same as my post just above and nosferatu's question, which i am sure you can answer with complete rule support.
Roll for the Purifires only, try to place them by Deep Strike rules before the Drop Pod is placed.
Try to claim that they were embarked upon it, i'm sure your opponent will like the idea
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 10:12:48
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
2015/01/28 12:18:02
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
Interceptors are part of the Grey Knights army, correct?
That means that Interceptors can use the Rights of Teleportation rule, correct?
However... Why are they called Interceptors? They don't have the Interceptor special rule... So why is this?
I'll answer this for you; it is because they do not.
Back to the topic in question:
If I have the Nemesis Strike Force formation and I allied in some Space Marines (through cheesy IoM ally shenanigans), and put scouts in a drop pod... Would they use the Rights of Teleportation rule?
The answer is no because they aren't part of the Grey Knight army. Do you know what this is like? Claiming that allied drop pods are part of the Gey Knight army.
To be honest, there wouldn't be these kinds of disputes if the allies matrix was back to 6th edition's one (where no one liked Grey Knights).
2015/01/28 12:24:23
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
If I have the Nemesis Strike Force formation and I allied in some Space Marines (through cheesy IoM ally shenanigans), and put scouts in a drop pod... Would they use the Rights of Teleportation rule?
The answer is no because they aren't part of the Grey Knight army. Do you know what this is like? Claiming that allied drop pods are part of the Gey Knight army.
To be honest, there wouldn't be these kinds of disputes if the allies matrix was back to 6th edition's one (where no one liked Grey Knights).
I think their current 'argument' is that they are rolling for the Grey Knights Unit to arrive, not the Allied Pod.
But have failed to provide any rules support as to how this Unit is arriving on the table (I mean Raw clearly states that you deploy what you rolled for - quoted below)
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
2015/01/28 12:57:51
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
If I have the Nemesis Strike Force formation and I allied in some Space Marines (through cheesy IoM ally shenanigans), and put scouts in a drop pod... Would they use the Rights of Teleportation rule?
The answer is no because they aren't part of the Grey Knight army. Do you know what this is like? Claiming that allied drop pods are part of the Gey Knight army.
To be honest, there wouldn't be these kinds of disputes if the allies matrix was back to 6th edition's one (where no one liked Grey Knights).
I think their current 'argument' is that they are rolling for the Grey Knights Unit to arrive, not the Allied Pod.
But have failed to provide any rules support as to how this Unit is arriving on the table (I mean Raw clearly states that you deploy what you rolled for - quoted below)
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
How would this work with a strike squad which actually has deep strike?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2015/01/28 13:28:16
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
Xenomancers wrote: How would this work with a strike squad which actually has deep strike?
How would what work?
I'm agreeing with this:
Xenomancers wrote: Drop pod is a SW unit and not part of your formation. Your NSF has nothing to do with that pod.
And was trying to explain to some who have trouble understanding how Deep Strike and Drop Pods work:
A Unit with a transport rolls only once to arrive from reserves, a roll that must be attributed to whatever model is placed on the Table, as per:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
So you must be rolling for the arrival of the Pod (NSF has nothing to do with that pod) and then place the pod according to the rules found after the above.
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
2015/01/28 13:56:38
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
greytalon666 wrote: Spelled out clearly in combined reserves. Combined reserves arrive together, and thge rule even gives us permission to roll for just the purifiers!
Gooid deal, we can finally put this to rest.
Pleas eshow how you are placing one model from the purifiers unit, and tTHEN disembarking them from the drop pod.
Page and graph
Hint: Only one way round means you can satisfy the DS rules *and* the DPA rules.
2015/01/28 14:11:45
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
Xenomancers wrote: How would this work with a strike squad which actually has deep strike?
How would what work?
I'm agreeing with this:
Xenomancers wrote: Drop pod is a SW unit and not part of your formation. Your NSF has nothing to do with that pod.
And was trying to explain to some who have trouble understanding how Deep Strike and Drop Pods work:
A Unit with a transport rolls only once to arrive from reserves, a roll that must be attributed to whatever model is placed on the Table, as per:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
So you must be rolling for the arrival of the Pod (NSF has nothing to do with that pod) and then place the pod according to the rules found after the above.
So since your reserve roll goes for the unit that is placed on the table (the pod) this trumps all other special deep strike rules that effect the units placed inside the pod? Am I following you correctly?
What are you agreeing with in regards to a strike squad in a drop pod? I'm confused about you saying you agree and then you say that the reserves roll must be made for the pod not the unit inside. Please clarify.
Could this argument also be used to settle the debate about LoTD in a drop pod - they will not get to reroll the scatter (if they are actually allowed to be placed in a pod in the first place?)
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2015/01/28 14:15:05
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
What theyre stating is that you *cannot* claim to be rolling solely for the Purifiers, as you *cannot* comply with the requisite rules if you do so - you *cannot* BOTH place a model from the unit that is arriving (the purifier unit) AND have them disembark from the Drop Pod *after* te drop pod lands.
What settles LatD in a pod is that a unit inside a pod isnt themselves ddeepstirking; they are coming from DS reserves, but not DS, meaning you would break their rule.
Similarly here there is only one way to comply with all the rules in play. You roll for th pod.
2015/01/28 14:16:49
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
siege2142 wrote: That's not how it reads raw. Raw, it says roll for the unit AND/OR transport AND/OR ic's.
And just because dpa reminds you about the reserve rules doesn't mean you are required to use that specific rule over any other.
It says, "The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally."
And what is normal for units with RoT?
If you accept that the roll is for the Drop Pod (as Drop Pod Assault requires) then that's irrelevant; you cannot make a Rites of Teleportation roll for the Drop Pod because it's not a unit in the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment.
greytalon666 wrote: You edited your statement to remove the quote I was talking about, and are now trying to play it cool.
Regardless, Jeffersonian, siege2142, and I have quoted rules allowing purifiers and pods to arrive on turn one. We've all shown the permission to roll for a specific part of a combined unit, we've shown that a combined unit arrives together. When a combined unit arrives together, you then deploy that combined unit.
Neither you nor talons have shown any solid evidence that rules as currently written do not work that way.
You have shown an assumption to roll for a specific part of a combined Unit (Due to unclear And/Or wording). I agree that you can read it that way.
But rolling for the Purifiers has a problem, this rule:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
What does the "them" underline above refer to? The Unit you rolled for, Purifiers. Can you place them as following those rules? no.
False. It refers to the combined unit, because that's what you rolled for.
So yes, you can place them with the following rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 14:30:35
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 14:38:02
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
So in this "combined roll"...do you just get to chose which rules you follow? because each unit has different rules...purifiers don't even have deep strike dude and drop pods arrive with special rules on turn 1 and then roll normally after the first turn - what would purifiers even roll for in this situation?
What you are doing is picking and choosing which rules to follow and not follow with permissions you aren't given.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 14:39:04
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2015/01/28 14:39:07
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
Xenomancers wrote: So in this "combined roll"...do you just get to chose which rules you follow? because each unit has different rules...purifiers don't even have deep strike dude and drop pods arrive with special rules on turn 1 and then roll normally after the first turn - what would purifiers even roll for in this situation?
The combined unit rolls. Since the Purifiers are part of the combined unit, the combined unit is allowed to roll.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: What you are doing is picking and choosing which rules to follow and not follow with permissions you aren't given.
That's incorrect. I'm following all the rules as presented.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 14:39:31
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 14:55:26
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
I really need to start bringing a rulebook to work.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2015/01/28 15:07:38
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
I make a distinction between making a reserve roll for a unit in the NSF Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve versus making a combined reserve unit roll for a unit in the NSF Detachment embarked upon a unit not in the NSF Detachment in Deep Strike Reserve. You do not. There are a variety of secondary arguments which vary in their merit, but that's the core of the issue for me and I suppose it's just too bad if you don't think it's reasonable.
Sorry, I was hijacking your post, not your opinion. My apologies for the confusion.
nosferatu1001 wrote: So when you make the roll for the purifiers, you place a model from the purifier unit first I assume?
No, you are attempting a false equivalency to disprove a point. When making the roll, the roll is for the entire Combind Unit (RAW), which must arrive together (RAW), with the passengers embarked (RAW), and following the placement process for the Vehicle (RAW). It is false logic to imply the passengers arriving first if the player legally exercises their option to roll to arrive for one of the units in the Combined Unit over any other, as granted per the "And/Or" verbiage (RAW). Additionally, the criteria required to gain the benefits of Rites of Teleportation are met due the rules for Allying, Battle Brothers, Deep Strike (aka, Deep Strike Reserves), Transports, Combined Units, Command Benefits, and Drop Pod Assault.
If Allied Battle Brothers did not allow for a non-Faction unit to embark on a non-dedicated Drop Pod, this situation would not exist. Before the new SW codex introduced non-dedicated Drop Pods, this situation did not exist. If Rites of Teleportation had more restrictive language, this situation would not exist. If Drop Pod Assault required a Turn 2 or later arrival of the half that did not arrive Turn 1, again this situation would not exist. However, GW wrote these rules, and has even indirectly shown approval by not only not making changes via Errata or FAQ, but by using more restrictive language in the recent BA codex that does not allow many of their special rules to benefit non-BA models in Combined Units.
What most people here are arguing against is RAI as they see it versus RAW. RAW allows the tactic, even if that is not how they would play it and is not what they feel was intended. How it was intended is an unknown, and how they would play it is a house rule. Read as written, the rules noted above allows a player to legally attempt to deploy all of their Drop Pods on Turn 1, with half (rounded up) arriving per Drop Pod Assault, and the remained rolling to arrive if carrying embarked Nemesis Strike Force units (the units in question being Purifies is immaterial other than that Purifiers are one of the few worthwhile GK units that do not have the Deep Strike USR).
Claims that the "Pro" side are wrong have not been supported by rules, because the rules as written support the actual tactic. Nit-picking over the meanings of terms like "And/Or" and "Teleportation" have no weight beyond the contex the terms are used. In the case of "And/Or", we are literally given a choice between units or the choice of all of the units. In the case of "Teleportation", it is a title, not a defined game term. The point raised on non-Faction units not benefiting from Command Benefits is a poor argument due to different Command Benefits having different language; if all Comnand Benefits are treated the same, a CAD Troop would lose Objective Secured as soon as an IC joins the unit, which we know is not true. Similarly, while Rites of Teleportation requires a NSF unit to be in Deep Strike Reserves to gain its benefits, no language exists that denies said benefits to a legally attached IC. And per the Combined Unit rules, Transports arrive with their passengers, because GW felt it was important enough to spell it out rather than leave the notion implied.
In order to debunk this tactic, actual rules need to be cited that deny the permissions granted by Allies, Battle Brothers, Combined Units, Transports, and Deep Strike (aka, Deep Strike Reserves). Good luck with that.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
2015/01/28 15:15:06
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
So you are rolling for the Purifiers and rolling for the Drop Pod?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2015/01/28 15:19:20
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
Happyjew wrote: So you are rolling for the Purifiers and rolling for the Drop Pod?
No, just the Purifiers. The Drop Pod is dragged along because of the Combined Unit rule.
How can you roll for the purifiers if they don't have deep strike?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2015/01/28 15:34:51
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
Happyjew wrote: So you are rolling for the Purifiers and rolling for the Drop Pod?
No, just the Purifiers. The Drop Pod is dragged along because of the Combined Unit rule.
How can you roll for the purifiers if they don't have deep strike?
Spoiler:
In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
Please stop ignoring the rules that have been posted.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
