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2015/01/29 17:45:10
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod. I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers. The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
You haven't shown that it's impossible. You've just shown that (assuming RoT does not override the normal reserve rules), the game breaks when you roll for the purifiers.
I agree, but my solution is that they bring the Pod with them, per the Combined Units rule, and the pod is placed first, because they're embarked upon it so deploying the pod is exactly the same as deploying them. It's the rules for the Pod that override the normal DS "place one model from the unit, etc." rules, not RoT or the Purifiers.
Edit: Let me ask you this - if I have a Tactical Squad in a Pod, and I say "I'm rolling for the Tactical Squad" are you going to go through the same rigmarole about how "You must put a Tac Marine down..." etc because I rolled for them instead of their pod?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/29 17:46:46
2015/01/29 17:46:08
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
greytalon666 wrote: Nos, you are on ignore, but people quoting you are not. Also, ignore just collapses your posts, not removes them entirely, so I cash always see when you are failing to add anything new to the discussion.
When a combined unit arrives, the controlling player deploys that combined unit in the order he chooses, because when multiple things happen at the exact same time, controlling player is always given permission to choose the order.
As has been said many times, you can't place the purifiers first, so obviously you place their transport first, then the purifiers.
You can't deploy the purifiers at all. They are embarked upon a vehicle and cannot be placed anywhere, ever.
Once the Pod has followed all the correct rules for arrival, they may disembark. Pod Rules:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Definitely not simultaneous.
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
2015/01/29 17:48:03
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
greytalon666 wrote: Nos, you are on ignore, but people quoting you are not. Also, ignore just collapses your posts, not removes them entirely, so I cash always see when you are failing to add anything new to the discussion.
When a combined unit arrives, the controlling player deploys that combined unit in the order he chooses, because when multiple things happen at the exact same time, controlling player is always given permission to choose the order.
As has been said many times, you can't place the purifiers first, so obviously you place their transport first, then the purifiers.
You can't deploy the purifiers at all. They are embarked upon a vehicle and cannot be placed anywhere, ever.
Once the Pod has followed all the correct rules for arrival, they may disembark. Pod Rules: "Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Definitely not simultaneous.
If I deploy a rhino with a unit inside, have I deployed said unit? Or can I deploy them somewhere else as well, as they have not deployed?
That is to say, deploying a transport with a unit in it is deploying both units. Then, the unit may disembark (after it has deployed, albeit immediately afterwards).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/29 17:49:12
2015/01/29 17:48:39
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
Ok. So we have a Drop Pod with Purifiers. The Drop Pod is most certainly a Deep Striking unit so we need to refer to the Reserves rule to determine when it can arrive. Whichever Unit rolls for the arrival will be deployed as follows.
Combined Reserve Units
... Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
So here it defines a unit inside a transport in reserves as a combined unit. A Drop Pod with Purifiers is a combined unit and must arrive together. You roll for the combined unit (see bolded) by rolling for the unit AND/OR it's transport. Due to poor wording, this gives me many options for rolling for the combined unit.
I can do any of the following to determine of a combined unit arrives from Reserves:
Roll for the transport (Drop Pod).
Roll for the unit (Purifiers).
Roll for both.
I choose to roll for the Purifiers.
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.
Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Formation that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this Formation can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.
Here we see that Purifiers are placed in Deep Strike Reserves via the Drop Pod Assault rule. Then via the RoT rule, they have permission to make a Reserve Roll from turn 1 because they are in Deep Strike Reserve. So, via the Combined Reserve Units rule, I can roll for the unit (Purifiers) to see see if the combined unit (Purifiers and Drop Pod) may arrive from Reserves. So there I have permission to roll on turn 1.
Now that we've determined the combined unit (Drop Pod and Purifiers) are ready to arrive from Reserves, we can go back to the Deep Strike rule and continue from where we left off. (We now place the Purifiers that rolled to arrive on the table, per "deploy them as follows")
Oh snap, i can't continue with the following, the passengers are already on the table:
That's when the Drop Pod's rules kick in again in order to show how you Deep Strike a Drop Pod with models inside. (I don't have those rules available but I'm sure they're common enough since Drop Pods are used all the time.)
I've followed all the rules linearly and can't find a conflict.
I've corrected your post in red above.
Drop Pods and their units roll for reserves together, as per Combined Reserve Units rule. Also, as per the Combined Reserve Units rule, I may make Reserve Rolls for the Purifiers to determine if the combined unit is arriving.
'them' refers to the combined unit. I chose to embark the Purifiers onto the Drop Pod (thats how they got into Deep Strike Reserves in the first place). So to deploy the Purifiers, I must first deploy the Drop Pod. That goes without saying. What you're suggesting doesn't make sense and breaks Drop Pods.
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2015/01/29 17:49:33
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
greytalon666 wrote: Nos, you are on ignore, but people quoting you are not. Also, ignore just collapses your posts, not removes them entirely, so I cash always see when you are failing to add anything new to the discussion.
When a combined unit arrives, the controlling player deploys that combined unit in the order he chooses, because when multiple things happen at the exact same time, controlling player is always given permission to choose the order.
As has been said many times, you can't place the purifiers first, so obviously you place their transport first, then the purifiers.
You can't deploy the purifiers at all. They are embarked upon a vehicle and cannot be placed anywhere, ever.
Once the Pod has followed all the correct rules for arrival, they may disembark. Pod Rules:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Definitely not simultaneous.
So as has been discussed and proven raw, I can roll for just the purifiers, then, because bof the pods rule I have to place the pod out of that combined unit first. Still functionally the same thing.
2015/01/29 17:49:49
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
You can't deploy the purifiers at all. They are embarked upon a vehicle and cannot be placed anywhere, ever.
By this logic any unit in any transport is not considered deployed the turn they come on from reserves. Is that the claim you're making? If not then please explain why it's different in this one case...
2015/01/29 17:50:33
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod. I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers. The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
You haven't shown that it's impossible. You've just shown that (assuming RoT does not override the normal reserve rules), the game breaks when you roll for the purifiers.
I agree, but my solution is that they bring the Pod with them, per the Combined Units rule, and the pod is placed first, because they're embarked upon it so deploying the pod is exactly the same as deploying them. It's the rules for the Pod that override the normal DS "place one model from the unit, etc." rules, not RoT or the Purifiers.
What happens when a rule breaks the game? Do you play that rule anyway? I can prove to you that i can deploy a Commander on top of a Rhino, which will break the game. Shall we continue playing with my Commander on top of the Rhino?
As for the combined Unit arrival: they arrive together.
But they do not, and cannot deploy together. As per the pod rules above. The Pod always deploys first: "Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark." Purifiers cannot deploy first. Deep Strike requires you deploy what you rolled for.
Conclusion: You cannot roll for the Purifiers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/29 17:50:38
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
2015/01/29 17:52:05
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
BlackTalos wrote: As for the combined Unit arrival: they arrive together.
But they do not, and cannot deploy together. As per the pod rules above. The Pod always deploys first: "Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark." Purifiers cannot deploy first. Deep Strike requires you deploy what you rolled for.
Conclusion: You cannot roll for the Purifiers.
Nowhere in the pod rules does it say the Unit deploys second. It says disembarks. A unit can still be deployed while it's embarked.
Therefore the pod and it's embarked passengers arrive simultaneously, immediately followed by the disembarkation of said passengers.
Think of it this way: While embarked in their transport, the unit and their transport are effectively one model comprising both units. If you deploy that one Rhino (or drop pod, or Wave Serpent) you've deployed both units, literally at the same time.
Later, (in the case of the pod, "immediately,") the unit may disembark, once again becoming two units made up of a Rhino/Pod/Wave Serpent/whatever and an infantry squad made up of Purifiers/Tactical Marines/Dire Avengers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/29 17:53:59
2015/01/29 17:53:51
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod.
I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers.
The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
You haven't shown that it's impossible. You've just shown that (assuming RoT does not override the normal reserve rules), the game breaks when you roll for the purifiers.
I agree, but my solution is that they bring the Pod with them, per the Combined Units rule, and the pod is placed first, because they're embarked upon it so deploying the pod is exactly the same as deploying them. It's the rules for the Pod that override the normal DS "place one model from the unit, etc." rules, not RoT or the Purifiers.
What happens when a rule breaks the game? Do you play that rule anyway?
I can prove to you that i can deploy a Commander on top of a Rhino, which will break the game. Shall we continue playing with my Commander on top of the Rhino?
As for the combined Unit arrival: they arrive together.
But they do not, and cannot deploy together. As per the pod rules above. The Pod always deploys first:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Purifiers cannot deploy first.
Deep Strike requires you deploy what you rolled for.
Conclusion:
You cannot roll for the Purifiers.
Yes, you can. The pod can then be placed first thanks AGAIN to combined reserves.
2015/01/29 17:53:57
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
You can't deploy the purifiers at all. They are embarked upon a vehicle and cannot be placed anywhere, ever.
By this logic any unit in any transport is not considered deployed the turn they come on from reserves. Is that the claim you're making? If not then please explain why it's different in this one case...
They are, per the RaW:
"Models can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity."
and
"During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, (...) you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together."
They are deployed "embarked". Since before you start the game. Is a Unit deployed inside a Rhino Deployed on the Table?
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
2015/01/29 17:53:58
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod.
I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers.
The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
You haven't shown that it's impossible. You've just shown that (assuming RoT does not override the normal reserve rules), the game breaks when you roll for the purifiers.
I agree, but my solution is that they bring the Pod with them, per the Combined Units rule, and the pod is placed first, because they're embarked upon it so deploying the pod is exactly the same as deploying them. It's the rules for the Pod that override the normal DS "place one model from the unit, etc." rules, not RoT or the Purifiers.
What happens when a rule breaks the game? Do you play that rule anyway?
I can prove to you that i can deploy a Commander on top of a Rhino, which will break the game. Shall we continue playing with my Commander on top of the Rhino?
As for the combined Unit arrival: they arrive together.
But they do not, and cannot deploy together. As per the pod rules above. The Pod always deploys first:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Purifiers cannot deploy first.
Deep Strike requires you deploy what you rolled for.
Conclusion:
You cannot roll for the Purifiers.
So if I have a modifier that lets me change the reserve rolls by one for the units in my detachment, and one of those units is in a drop pod from another detachment, I cannot modify the roll or else it'll be illegal to deploy that unit in the drop pod?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlackTalos wrote: "During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, (...) you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together."
They are deployed "embarked".
So they ARE deployed, just in an "embarked" mode?
Your argument is becoming a little erratic...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/29 17:56:15
2015/01/29 17:55:56
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod.
I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers.
The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
You haven't shown that it's impossible. You've just shown that (assuming RoT does not override the normal reserve rules), the game breaks when you roll for the purifiers.
I agree, but my solution is that they bring the Pod with them, per the Combined Units rule, and the pod is placed first, because they're embarked upon it so deploying the pod is exactly the same as deploying them. It's the rules for the Pod that override the normal DS "place one model from the unit, etc." rules, not RoT or the Purifiers.
What happens when a rule breaks the game? Do you play that rule anyway?
I can prove to you that i can deploy a Commander on top of a Rhino, which will break the game. Shall we continue playing with my Commander on top of the Rhino?
As for the combined Unit arrival: they arrive together.
But they do not, and cannot deploy together. As per the pod rules above. The Pod always deploys first:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Purifiers cannot deploy first.
Deep Strike requires you deploy what you rolled for.
Conclusion:
You cannot roll for the Purifiers.
Yes, you can. The pod can then be placed first thanks AGAIN to combined reserves.
No because the rules for Deep Strike need you to:
"place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position"
How do you do this for the Purifiers that rolled?
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
2015/01/29 17:57:06
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod.
I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers.
The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
You haven't shown that it's impossible. You've just shown that (assuming RoT does not override the normal reserve rules), the game breaks when you roll for the purifiers.
I agree, but my solution is that they bring the Pod with them, per the Combined Units rule, and the pod is placed first, because they're embarked upon it so deploying the pod is exactly the same as deploying them. It's the rules for the Pod that override the normal DS "place one model from the unit, etc." rules, not RoT or the Purifiers.
What happens when a rule breaks the game? Do you play that rule anyway?
I can prove to you that i can deploy a Commander on top of a Rhino, which will break the game. Shall we continue playing with my Commander on top of the Rhino?
As for the combined Unit arrival: they arrive together.
But they do not, and cannot deploy together. As per the pod rules above. The Pod always deploys first:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Purifiers cannot deploy first.
Deep Strike requires you deploy what you rolled for.
Conclusion:
You cannot roll for the Purifiers.
Yes, you can. The pod can then be placed first thanks AGAIN to combined reserves.
No because the rules for Deep Strike need you to:
"place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position"
How do you do this for the Purifiers that rolled?
It isn't, but thankfully that part is overridden by the pod rules.
Or won't you let me bring in my podding Tactical Squad?
2015/01/29 17:58:13
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
BlackTalos wrote: No because the rules for Deep Strike need you to:
"place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position"
Can you address why, exactly, the drop pod rules do not supersede these rules since the transport arrives at the same time as the unit you're rolling for that is embarked on that transport? You keep making this claim and then ignoring that statement which seems to overturn it.
2015/01/29 17:58:15
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod.
I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers.
The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
You haven't shown that it's impossible. You've just shown that (assuming RoT does not override the normal reserve rules), the game breaks when you roll for the purifiers.
I agree, but my solution is that they bring the Pod with them, per the Combined Units rule, and the pod is placed first, because they're embarked upon it so deploying the pod is exactly the same as deploying them. It's the rules for the Pod that override the normal DS "place one model from the unit, etc." rules, not RoT or the Purifiers.
What happens when a rule breaks the game? Do you play that rule anyway?
I can prove to you that i can deploy a Commander on top of a Rhino, which will break the game. Shall we continue playing with my Commander on top of the Rhino?
As for the combined Unit arrival: they arrive together.
But they do not, and cannot deploy together. As per the pod rules above. The Pod always deploys first:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Purifiers cannot deploy first.
Deep Strike requires you deploy what you rolled for.
Conclusion:
You cannot roll for the Purifiers.
Yes, you can. The pod can then be placed first thanks AGAIN to combined reserves.
No because the rules for Deep Strike need you to:
"place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position"
How do you do this for the Purifiers that rolled?
I rolled for the combined unit, which includes a transport and embarked models. I place the Drop Pod as per those rules. Once I roll for scatter, all requirements are met because the entire combined unit is deployed.
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2015/01/29 18:00:05
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
Okay, i see that the 2 'deploy' have caused confusion for everyone.
You deploy models before Turn 1. Passengers are deployed "embarked", whether on the Table or in reserves.
When a Unit arrives by Deep Strike, it has to roll: Roll for whatever you want. Whichever Unit that was then follows these rules:
deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table,(...) • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it.
So: Resolve the above. Who are you rolling for? they will follow the rules quoted (and "deploy")
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/29 18:00:52
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
2015/01/29 18:00:51
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
nosferatu1001 wrote: You roll for the combined unit - what allows you to use part of the combined unit to set when you can turn up? Nothing in the combined unit rules allows you to inspect each unit component, reveal when it is able to roll, and set the "best" one as the roll and turn for the combined unit.
I must make a Reserve roll for a combined unit. How do I determine what that roll is?
Ignore what the makeup of the combined unit is - cite the rules telling you what and when to roll.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/29 18:01:16
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
BlackTalos wrote: Okay, i see that the 2 'deploy' have caused confusion for everyone.
You deploy models before Turn 1. Passengers are deployed "embarked", whether on the Table or in reserves.
When a Unit arrives by Deep Strike, it has to roll: Roll for whatever you want. Whichever Unit that was then follows these rules:
deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table,(...) • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it.
So: Resolve the above. Who are you rolling for? they will follow the rules quoted (and "deploy")
Can you address why, exactly, the drop pod rules do not supersede these rules since the transport arrives at the same time as the unit you're rolling for that is embarked on that transport? You keep making this claim and then ignoring that statement which seems to overturn it.
2015/01/29 18:01:41
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
BlackTalos wrote: Okay, i see that the 2 'deploy' have caused confusion for everyone.
You deploy models before Turn 1. Passengers are deployed "embarked", whether on the Table or in reserves.
When a Unit arrives by Deep Strike, it has to roll: Roll for whatever you want. Whichever Unit that was then follows these rules:
deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table,(...) • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it.
So: Resolve the above. Who are you rolling for? they will follow the rules quoted (and "deploy")
I'm rolling for the combined unit.
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2015/01/29 18:06:30
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
And more nun UHS, followed by yes I can because (raw quotes).
Talos, the rule (not plural) you have been trying to force down peoples throats as the end all be all of dsr, has been proven to be superceeded by other rules.
2015/01/29 18:18:39
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
BlackTalos wrote: Okay, i see that the 2 'deploy' have caused confusion for everyone.
You deploy models before Turn 1. Passengers are deployed "embarked", whether on the Table or in reserves.
When a Unit arrives by Deep Strike, it has to roll: Roll for whatever you want. Whichever Unit that was then follows these rules:
deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table,(...) • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it.
So: Resolve the above. Who are you rolling for? they will follow the rules quoted (and "deploy")
I'm rolling for the combined unit.
Correct! I've actually been saying this too!
Like Here:
BlackTalos wrote: By the way, to make it clear what "my side" is:
- Combined Reserve means you have to roll once for all of the Units.
- And/Or refers to having an IC and Transport / an IC or Transport. Not who you can roll for: you only roll for the "Combined Unit. - This Combined Unit follows the rules for DS: The Unit (T+Passengers) is Deep Striking, but only the Transport is arriving "by Deep Strike", while the Passengers are arriving "by disembarking", but the entire (combined) Unit is Deep Striking.
Lastly and more importantly:
- I am unsure as to whether RoT would allow the Combined Unit to roll on Turn 1, or not. Rigeld made a good point that the answer is "Yes", but don't want to get involved in "Detachment rules" until they fix that.
And here:
BlackTalos wrote: No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod.
I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers.
The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
confoo22 wrote: Can you address why, exactly, the drop pod rules do not supersede these rules since the transport arrives at the same time as the unit you're rolling for that is embarked on that transport? You keep making this claim and then ignoring that statement which seems to overturn it.
greytalon666 wrote: Talos, the rule (not plural) you have been trying to force down peoples throats as the end all be all of dsr, has been proven to be superceeded by other rules.
If you could get a quote of that rule, it would help...
And no, i see no rules in the Drop Pod rules superseding the Deep Strike rule that you must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" of the Unit you rolled for.
Both are arriving together.
The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/29 18:23:00
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2015/01/29 18:24:35
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
BlackTalos wrote: By the way, to make it clear what "my side" is:
- Combined Reserve means you have to roll once for all of the Units.
- And/Or refers to having an IC and Transport / an IC or Transport. Not who you can roll for: you only roll for the "Combined Unit. - This Combined Unit follows the rules for DS: The Unit (T+Passengers) is Deep Striking, but only the Transport is arriving "by Deep Strike", while the Passengers are arriving "by disembarking", but the entire (combined) Unit is Deep Striking.
Lastly and more importantly:
- I am unsure as to whether RoT would allow the Combined Unit to roll on Turn 1, or not. Rigeld made a good point that the answer is "Yes", but don't want to get involved in "Detachment rules" until they fix that.
And here:
BlackTalos wrote: No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod.
I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers. The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
The underlined hasn't been shown. Your interpretation of the Combined Reserve Unit rule.. "- And/Or refers to having an IC and Transport / an IC or Transport. Not who you can roll for: you only roll for the "Combined Unit." isn't true.
Spoiler:
Combined Reserve Units
... Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
This rule means I can do any of the following to determine if a combined unit arrives from Reserves:
Roll for the transport (Drop Pod).
Roll for the unit (Purifiers).
Roll for both.
Your interpretation says that I can not roll for the combined unit by rolling for the Purifiers. I do not believe you've shown significant evidence to make this claim.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/29 18:25:16
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2015/01/29 18:26:36
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/29 18:29:04
2015/01/29 18:30:01
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/29 18:35:00
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2015/01/29 18:41:41
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
Page 13, basic vs advanced, last sentence. You're welcome.
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
It does not fail, per the combined unit rules where it explicitly states they arrive together by rolling for the unit and/OR their transport/ic.
Again, your welcome for me looking up all those rules for you. Now please, cease your useless nu-uhs and actually *add* something to this, or acknoiwkedge you are wrong and move on.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/29 18:44:29
2015/01/29 18:45:12
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
Page 13, basic vs advanced, last sentence. You're welcome.
Does it say codex overrules BRB?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2015/01/29 18:45:51
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
You should actually read the entire rulebook.
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
The codex *does* allow the Combined Unit to roll on turn 1. Please find a rule denying that.
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2015/01/29 18:46:05
Subject: Re:Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
Or we can actually check the rules, which I found an epub of on my phone here. Don't have the page number, but under the section "Advanced versus Basic rules":
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. - i.e. Deep Strike
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models - in this case a drop pod
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. - in this case Drop Pod Assault overriding the general drop pod rules
If codex rules didn't override BRB rules then codexes would have no army specific rules. Next time try actually looking at the rules before trying to win an argument based off a guess.
2015/01/29 18:51:33
Subject: Nemesis Strike Formation and Allied Drop Pods
When rolling for a combined unit you can only use benefits that everything in the combined unit has.
If a Gey Knight character was in an IG squad and the squad received the monster hunter order; would the Grey Knight gain it? Yes. This is why allies break the game as why would this Grey Knight accept orders from an IG?
Back on topic, does the drop pod have RoT? No? Therefore it cannot be used as both units do not have it.
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