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I am wondering when Space marines fight against Tyranids, whether Stormraven or winged Hive Tyrant can win the air combat. To my understanding, the Stormraven has better weapon strength (I built mine with TL LC and TL MM, which I thought should be Ok or good against other AV 12 flyer or FMC), and Hive Tyrant have way more shots (12 TL S6) but can only glance the Stormraven on a 6. However, Hive Tyrant have a 360 firing arc but Stormraven only have only around 90 degree firing arc, so it is harder for the Stormraven to get to a good position to fire upon the tyrant while Hive Tyrant may have less problem in positioning in the aerial dog fight.

Points wise, the two should be close, iirc. But I heard that the flyrant is more spammable than Stormraven, maybe due to Tyranid other units are cheaper than marines. So who will win the aerial combat?

While TL Devourer is quite a confirmed best weapon on flyrant, I also have another question of what loadout would be best for a general aerial superiority tasked Stormraven, i.e. fighting BOTH enemy aerial vehicle and FMC. Imho, in air combat in the game, it is better to gun down enemy in one shooting phase. Because if the stormraven failed to do that, it may take around 2 or 3 more turn in positioning to get to lock on the enemy once more, and that Flyrant or Heldrake could have already raining hell everywhere.

Looking forward to opinion from everyone. Cheers buddies

Don't forget the Flyrant has the potential to Vector Strike the Raven as well.

 grendel083 wrote:
Don't forget the Flyrant has the potential to Vector Strike the Raven as well.

Thanks for the reply
Imho, it may not be worth it for the flyrant to vector strike the Stormraven, as it count as firing one weapon, so which means trading 6 BS4 TL S6 shots for D3 S6 hits. Which, er, may not sounds good for the Flyrant when fighting Stormraven

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Imho, it may not be worth it for the flyrant to vector strike the Stormraven, as it count as firing one weapon, so which means trading 6 BS4 TL S6 shots for D3 S6 hits. Which, er, may not sounds good for the Flyrant when fighting Stormraven

Remember that Vector Strikes can be used when the Flyrant is jinking (when the weapons would otherwise be snap-shooting). The stormraven can't jink the damage, but that's a mixed blessing - it would be less likely to jink in the face of your remaining weapon, and so could fire normally in the next turn.

Math:

Dont forget to unload the missles too. Max out your 4 weapons advantage.

I have had a similar debate lately. Trying out fire raptors, storm talons, and storm eagle roc, as well as comparisons to sciarian and possibly that new autocannon deadnaught varient. Lots of choices.

If Tyrant gets first shot it causes 1.77hps damage on average (8/9 x 1/6 x 12).
If the stormraven shoots first (1 tl AC, 1 tl mm, 3 missiles) it causes 3.41wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That doesn't include jink.

Poly Ranger wrote:
If Tyrant gets first shot it causes 1.77hps damage on average (8/9 x 1/6 x 12).
If the stormraven shoots first (1 tl AC, 1 tl mm, 3 missiles) it causes 3.41wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That doesn't include jink.

Also doesn't include possible catalyst and/or warp blast.

In open ground a storm raven will do well 1v1. However, once you start including other factors (terrain, psychic powers, Venomthropea nearby, etc.) the Flyrants come widely ahead. A Flyrant will always have a toe in terrain for cover, and will often have Paroxys, Warp Lance or catalyst cast on it. When you Warp Lance a storm raven they may jink, an if they do the Flyrant wins the 1v1

What jifel said. Flyrants benefit more from force multipliers.

shogun wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
If Tyrant gets first shot it causes 1.77hps damage on average (8/9 x 1/6 x 12).
If the stormraven shoots first (1 tl AC, 1 tl mm, 3 missiles) it causes 3.41wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That doesn't include jink.

Also doesn't include possible catalyst and/or warp blast.

True. It also doesn't highlight the fact that 6Ws are better than 3hps.

Were the hell are you getting 6W? The Tyrant only has 4 (unless Fighter Ace).

 Tyran wrote:
Were the hell are you getting 6W? The Tyrant only has 4 (unless Fighter Ace).

Honestly a typo. If it was 6 I would have voted for the tyrant!

If it was 6, it would be the most overpowered model in the game.

 Tyran wrote:
If it was 6, it would be the most overpowered model in the game.

trans C'tan would like a word.

 raiden wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
If it was 6, it would be the most overpowered model in the game.

trans C'tan would like a word.

Fair point, although when was the last time you saw a Trans C'tan in a competitive game?

Get ready to see them a lot. 240pt Heavy Support in the new codex (apparently).

I vote stormraven. 'cause they're awesome.

Why is this Tyrant being calculated to shoot AV 12?

He's got a pretty good chance of hitting AV10 and especially so if onslaught

The Flyrant will invariably have a toe within terrain for canopy, and will frequently have Paroxys, Twist Lance or catalyst forged onto it.

Your StormTalon is going to die faster but is going to give you more bang for your buck...also strips wounds off Crones and Harpies.

 ductvader wrote:
Why is this Tyrant being calculated to shoot AV 12?

He's got a pretty good chance of hitting AV10 and especially so if onslaught

Stormravens are AV12 all around.

Thanks. Not a lot of them flying around me as you can see.

To be honest, I'd say it's so situational as to be an apples/oranges comparison. Leaving aside the effects of things like Chapter Tactics (they do matter for the Iron Hands one and could conceivably matter with other Chapter Tactics if FW publishes them, plus pseudotactics like He'Stan's presence), and sub-benefits (flyrant can bring things to escort like the hive crone, a Stormraven could bring riflemen dreadnoughts, devastator squads, MoF & servitors to heal up, etc.), their personal loadouts matter as well. A Stormraven naked maxes out at 4 weapons fired because you can only shoot two missiles at a time; a Storm Raven upgraded to have Hurricane Bolters can either shoot 5 things per round at full BS until out of missiles, or it can shoot 5 things at full BS plus one of its hurricane bolters to go with a Guard style throw-numbers-at-it approach. The flyrant, meanwhile, may have the option to throw egrubs at it if it hovers close enough (which would then bring the assault phase into the deal), not to mention exploiting its psyker ability more if it has adrenal glands, etc.... For that matter, the Flyrant can have a Warlord trait (including personal) but a Stormraven rolling on even the generic Space Marine Ace table has at worst an "I make my alpha strike sweeter" one use power whereas the Flyrant has a 1/3 chance of getting a +3" to Synapse range.

Which brings up another issue-- while a Flyrant can conceivably use terrain to get cover saves without jinking, it's unlikely that those cover saves will be better than jinking. Meanwhile the Stormraven does have an advantage that even a best-possible Powers of the Hive Mind loadout Flyrant has - range. The Stormraven can move 36" without losing its ability to hit things; the flyrant maxes out at 24". Furthermore, the best flyer-hitting weapons that the Flyrant has, the TLDWBLMlongcronyms, have a max range of 18"; if you outfit a Stormraven with Typhoon Missile Launchers and a Lascannon (probably not the best in terms of sheer numbers but the bigger the board the better the range advantage goes) with an effective range of 48". Conceivably, on a 6x4 board, the Stormraven could sit with its forward 45o arc parked to give it good turning distance, lob missiles and maybe a lascannon, lope, use hover to spin and the whole game is wasted (if we have nothing else on the board. But misjudge a turn, and you might end up taking a whole hive sewage product ton of brainleech worms.

Basically, I don't think you can take them out of their contexts for air superiority. One is an HQ, hard punching dogfighter and the other is a Heavy Support sort of inverse carrier. A lot of what makes them shine will matter based on the rest of your army and how you opt to support them, plus the field itself, dice luck, etc.

Thanks to all of you guys. Really appreciate the opinion you provide.
Looks like in the aerial duel between the two, the Flyrant have the edge, imho, mainly because it can get terrain cover even it is in the air. I think that is the most BROKEN advantage the FMC have over flyer in air combat. Which can let FMC get cover save without sacrificing its fire power. Hope it can be FAQ or amended in the next edition to let the all the terrain effect not applying to anything that is in the air.

I don't actually think the psychic power is a huge advantage in the aerial combat between the two. Since psychic power is not highly reliable. In both getting the power you want and successfully casting.

Flyrant could just warp lance a raven out the air right?

33% chance of getting the power...then you have to get it off, hit, and pen, then get a result that matters.

But yes, possible.

 Messy0 wrote:
Flyrant could just warp lance a raven out the air right?

You are right, that possibility turly exists.

However, for a single Flyrant, it should be very lucky to get that one shot wonder. Because it is approximately 1/3 chance for the flyrant to get that psychic power, from then on flyrant need 5 warp dice to reliably cast this WC2 power, and a 3+ to hit, no re rolling, from then on 3+ to pen, and a 6 to explode it. Sounds that 1 shot witchfire is not reliable, too many rolling to pass. So statistically I don't think it is more threatening than 12 S6 BS4 TL shots upon a AV12. Which is averaged almost 2 hull points striped. On the other hand, if the Tyranid player using a truly flyrant spam, i.e. 3 or more flyrant in a list of 1750 points. They should have a much higher probability to get that "one shot wonder".

But who knows what the hell is going to happen when you and your opponent rolling dices. I once have my Stormraven survived the hunting from 3 TL Lascannon of the Vendatta, as well as the hunt from "bring it down" order buffed the Quad guns manned by IG CCS, for 3 turns ! But in the other game at the same day, a Heldrake enter the battle from reserve and score a single vector strike hit on my Stormraven (my opponent rolled a one on that D3 roll), but then rolled a 6 on the penetration, then another 6 on the vehicle damage result.