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2015/01/27 23:38:30
Subject: Re:Supporting your local store vs. saving a lot of money
the_Armyman wrote: Every time we have this discussion, there is a disconnect between the people who use the store to game and those that don't. I live in an area where the game stores are spread out and the people I play with are generally an hour's drive away. I buy from the FLGS, because if I want to have a place to play with buddies that's relatively convenient for both of us, then I need to put some money in the owner's pocket. If I had no use for open gaming tables, then I could shop online conscience-free.
If you use the store's tables, then shop there more often than not. If you don't, shop anywhere you like. Simple.
Also, America doesn't have sales tax baked-in to the price like the UK/Eurozone because our sales tax is decided upon by the local or state government. But don't worry, our federal government LOVES the idea of VAT, so I would imagine they'll figure out away to slip it by us in some new law in the near future...
The thing is, your mileage varies in this argument. There is no one correct answer. Telling people how they should be spending their money is no one's right. My local store makes their money off trading card games. Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh, specifically. The war games are more of a niche that the majority of their customer base doesn't partake in, though the store does supply the paints and has SOME kits in store, though will place the orders in for stuff at the 20% discount. I'll buy SOME models from the store, but you have to understand, it isn't that we don't WANT to buy from stores. It's that most of us CAN'T afford to. Even at the discounts given.
GW is to blame for their absurd prices. It's unreasonable to buy market retail, even with a small cut by the store. I can buy used or broken models(and fix them) for under 50% of what it would cost new if I dig hard enough (And I DO, because my money is important). I like to support my store, but I do it in other ways. I partake in their events, i buy my other hobbies from them because they are reasonably priced, etc. If people have only GW stores, I feel for you. I'm lucky I don't have em. I'll support the local guys but I'll do it without giving GW much of my money due to their overall poor business practices.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/27 23:39:27
2015/01/27 23:52:01
Subject: Re:Supporting your local store vs. saving a lot of money
My closest store doesn't charge for table time. I get to enjoy their store, their tables, and their space for free.They don't offer any discount, furthermore they are not open to any discount even on large orders. The store is "okay", the owner is a good guy, but 40k is not a priority as I know it doesn't generate profit for him. I buy my white dwarfs from him, some glue and random bits and kits.
I do most of my large purchases that are in excess of $200 online. Now to sound like a hypocrite:
Not buying from your local store actually is akin to outsourcing/firing of senior workers we are seeing in some job sectors. Why the heck would I pay a local Software Engineer when I can outsource it and save 40% easily, or better yet hire a fresh faced college grad 20% less.
Would you still feel the same if someone said "hey we are letting you go, someone will do your job for 20% less", and at the end of the day its just business.
A lot of people especially in the states have seen this over the past few years. Just my two cents and lets not forget this is a hobby not a life necessity. Oh and few in this thread reminded me of this
the_Armyman wrote: Every time we have this discussion, there is a disconnect between the people who use the store to game and those that don't. I live in an area where the game stores are spread out and the people I play with are generally an hour's drive away. I buy from the FLGS, because if I want to have a place to play with buddies that's relatively convenient for both of us, then I need to put some money in the owner's pocket. If I had no use for open gaming tables, then I could shop online conscience-free.
If you use the store's tables, then shop there more often than not. If you don't, shop anywhere you like. Simple.
Also, America doesn't have sales tax baked-in to the price like the UK/Eurozone because our sales tax is decided upon by the local or state government. But don't worry, our federal government LOVES the idea of VAT, so I would imagine they'll figure out away to slip it by us in some new law in the near future...
The thing is, your mileage varies in this argument. There is no one correct answer. Telling people how they should be spending their money is no one's right. My local store makes their money off trading card games. Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh, specifically. The war games are more of a niche that the majority of their customer base doesn't partake in, though the store does supply the paints and has SOME kits in store, though will place the orders in for stuff at the 20% discount. I'll buy SOME models from the store, but you have to understand, it isn't that we don't WANT to buy from stores. It's that most of us CAN'T afford to. Even at the discounts given.
You're correct, it's not my right to tell you how to spend your money. Not sure why that needed to be said, but there it is. As for card games, I'm sure quite a lot of gaming stores are riding that wave right now. But I bet if you asked the owner if he wouldn't mind making money off his other products, he'd be down for that, too!
GW is to blame for their absurd prices. It's unreasonable to buy market retail, even with a small cut by the store. I can buy used or broken models(and fix them) for under 50% of what it would cost new if I dig hard enough (And I DO, because my money is important). I like to support my store, but I do it in other ways. I partake in their events, i buy my other hobbies from them because they are reasonably priced, etc. If people have only GW stores, I feel for you. I'm lucky I don't have em. I'll support the local guys but I'll do it without giving GW much of my money due to their overall poor business practices.
Firstly, if you support you store in other purchases, great. As long as you feel that these ancillary purchases are putting money in a local guy's pocket, then that's the right thing to be doing. However, when you buy a GW product from ANYWHERE, GW makes its money whether you save a percentage or not. You're not "sticking it to them" by purchasing with a discount. If you're truly angry at GW, then stop buying their products. You're not an addict.
Also not that the tables seem to see more action from the card gamers than they do the wargamers.
However, even with a 15-20% discount, the sapce for tables is more than paid for through volume of sales. The entire pay full price plus tax for everything to support your store is faulty. A store that has a discount sells a greater volume than the store that sells at full price so the overall end profit is higher for them. The key is finding the percentage that maximises this end profit maximum. It is not just the "principles" of the consumers that needs to be looked at but also the "principles" of the sellers as well. Those who offer discounts or other perks have more of us players buy from them so they come out further ahead by offering them.
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
the_Armyman wrote: Every time we have this discussion, there is a disconnect between the people who use the store to game and those that don't. I live in an area where the game stores are spread out and the people I play with are generally an hour's drive away. I buy from the FLGS, because if I want to have a place to play with buddies that's relatively convenient for both of us, then I need to put some money in the owner's pocket. If I had no use for open gaming tables, then I could shop online conscience-free.
If you use the store's tables, then shop there more often than not. If you don't, shop anywhere you like. Simple.
Also, America doesn't have sales tax baked-in to the price like the UK/Eurozone because our sales tax is decided upon by the local or state government. But don't worry, our federal government LOVES the idea of VAT, so I would imagine they'll figure out away to slip it by us in some new law in the near future...
The thing is, your mileage varies in this argument. There is no one correct answer. Telling people how they should be spending their money is no one's right. My local store makes their money off trading card games. Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh, specifically. The war games are more of a niche that the majority of their customer base doesn't partake in, though the store does supply the paints and has SOME kits in store, though will place the orders in for stuff at the 20% discount. I'll buy SOME models from the store, but you have to understand, it isn't that we don't WANT to buy from stores. It's that most of us CAN'T afford to. Even at the discounts given.
You're correct, it's not my right to tell you how to spend your money. Not sure why that needed to be said, but there it is. As for card games, I'm sure quite a lot of gaming stores are riding that wave right now. But I bet if you asked the owner if he wouldn't mind making money off his other products, he'd be down for that, too!
GW is to blame for their absurd prices. It's unreasonable to buy market retail, even with a small cut by the store. I can buy used or broken models(and fix them) for under 50% of what it would cost new if I dig hard enough (And I DO, because my money is important). I like to support my store, but I do it in other ways. I partake in their events, i buy my other hobbies from them because they are reasonably priced, etc. If people have only GW stores, I feel for you. I'm lucky I don't have em. I'll support the local guys but I'll do it without giving GW much of my money due to their overall poor business practices.
Firstly, if you support you store in other purchases, great. As long as you feel that these ancillary purchases are putting money in a local guy's pocket, then that's the right thing to be doing. However, when you buy a GW product from ANYWHERE, GW makes its money whether you save a percentage or not. You're not "sticking it to them" by purchasing with a discount. If you're truly angry at GW, then stop buying their products. You're not an addict.
No, I'm sticking it to them by buying from people who quite the game or are looking to change factions. GW gets not a penny from my purchases on Ebay. (Unless in a roundabout way they do because the guy I bought from spends that money on GW, but that's besides the point. They LOSE revenue because I wont pay THEM for my models)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/28 00:04:29
2015/01/28 00:03:20
Subject: Supporting your local store vs. saving a lot of money
WayneTheGame wrote: A game store is a business, not a charity. If they want my business, they need to offer me something to earn it. In this day and age they're competing with 30% and basically unlimited stock and guaranteed stock. Obviously they can't compete with that, but there has to be something more than "I have game tables" IMHO. Years ago this wasn't the case, but this is the 21st century. Just offering space doesn't cut it anymore.
If they are a business, and not a charity, then why are they offering you game tables for free?
I think this is part of a social contract, and if you don't participate, then you are being selfish. This is being a free rider on the people who DO support the store.
They offer you game tables in order to get your business. If you don't like that arrangement, stop playing there.
The wait staff at your restaurant isn't a charity either. They aren't bringing you food and drink because they like you. While you aren't legally required to tip them, you should. If you think tipping is moronic and '20th century', stop eating at restaurants. Don't screw over the waitstaff because you disagree with the restaurant business model.
Similarly, the game store doesn't charge for tables. It relies on the good faith of people playing there to support it with purchases. If you disagree with that business model, stop playing at the tables. Don't screw over the arrangement that works for the rest of us because you don't agree with it. If enough people think that 'what I am legally obliged to do' is all the game stores can expect, you can expect free gaming tables to disappear.
I'm not saying that the guy who could save $75 should eat it and shop locally. I don't make ALL my purchases at my LGS, but I do make regular purchases there, and I do make significant purchases there (I'm not just buying a candy bar). The game store isn't giving me my own personal table, but I'm contributing to repaying them for the tables they provide for everyone.
It just reminds me of the guy who shows up to the party with nothing, and eats the food and drinks that everyone else brought.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 00:04:11
2015/01/28 00:03:44
Subject: Re:Supporting your local store vs. saving a lot of money
This debate usually gets heated. Here's my take. tl:dr - do you go there a lot ? Do you like it being there? You should probably buy there, and no not just paint and a No Quarter or White Dwarf.
If you don't go there a lot (this would be roughly defined as, give or take, less than 1/4 of your games are played on the premises), or have no LGS. Buy online to your hearts content.
If you buy online and go to the store to play most of your games there (over half), despite whatever you tell yourself, you're a mooch. You do not add to the ambiance. You do not add to the "draw" because there's people in there. You're mooching heat, you're mooching electricity. Plain and simple. You are using their tables and space as your own hangout, and not contributing to money generating services the store has (product on the shelf or via special order) as the main method by which it provides those tables. What's worse, the people that work and go to the store know it. Every week when you show up with your shiny new stuff you didn't buy there, they know. You're not nearly as slick as you think you are. Buying a soda and a 3 buck pot of paint and maybe your NQ or WD in there is not support. It's staving off self imposed dousche chills by the slimmest margin.
Rest of this post will be behind spoiler tag as it's long.
I used to have no LGS for a long time, and we played at my house 100% of the time. During this time i bought exclusively online. When i discovered the LGS i go to now, at first i went there once in a great while to pick something up, but not anything remotely approaching regularity. I bought mostly still online, and felt no remorse, as i was visiting the store probably with a duration of time between visits measured in months.
In the winter months i do probably 90% of my minis gaming at the local store. This is because my gaming space is currently unheated basement, and as it's a walkout, it gets chilly in there where I live (like, high forties, which is chilly enough to not be fun to play in! Unfortunately finishing my Nerd Lair (NOT a man cave!) is probably about 2 years away, as if i'm going to do it, dammit imma do it right).
Come spring its probably a 50/50 split. Come summer, its my house all the time, as that unheated basement is nice and cool, and we grill up steaks, burgers, dogs, and brats, and drink beer, two things i can't do at my LGS. Well, i mean, i could grill steaks there, but i'm not buying for everyone. It's Ribeye or Filet or go home. Ditto on beer ; Beer snob and proud.
Fall is back to 50/50.
So it's roughly half the time give or take. That's a big chunk of my gaming time spend at the local shop!
Then there's these factors:
1) My LGS offers a 10% discount after buying 100 bucks culmulative worth of stuff, with no upper cap on the 10% discount purchase. Bring in your receipts, and voila, 10% off. They also have some KICKASS sales every now and then. As in i usually save up a few hundred bucks JUST to spend on their drool worthy black friday sales (last score i got was 60% off an acquila strongpoint).
2) They cater to me. Whenever i come in, there's a table for me and my friend ; even on the mornings where both Pokemon and a Warmachine / Hordes tourney is on. I have literally never walked in and NOT had a place to play, even if that means setting up another table for me, which is really nice.
3) They cater to me. When i order something from them, they order it right away, and they proactively tell me when it's in. THe one time there's been an issue, they took the ball and ran with it, and kept me up to speed without ever having to request an update.
4) They cater to me. When i bring my kid in, if someone starts firing off F bombs, they squash that gak. My boy's 7 and he comes with me from 12-6 to play pokemon, and then we promptly leave. Mostly for family dinner, but also as a nod to the whole "the older guys need time to be not on guard too). I have a mouth like a sailor, but not around my kid. I know my kid is not other people's responsibility, but if we can just not fire off F-bombs like an MG42, that's be great. Also, for those that say "your kids virgin ears are not my problem". Truth. I will not deny that. However my kids virgin ears are the stores problem if i stop coming in because people can't keep from teaching my kid new epithets. Because if i don't come in with him, i don't show up as much, and if i don't show up as much, i'm not buying as much.
And i buy a lot. So yes it's not an individuals problem. The store might think differently.
5) They cater to me. It's in a nice clean place, well lit and ventilated, bathroom is never a disaster, and right next door is a pizza shop with the tastiest goddamn chicken fingers in BBQ-Tobasco-Vinegar-Chipotle sauce. Seriously, i'm salivating right now thinking about it.
6) They cater to me. I gak you not, every damn time i walk in, they remember my name (priceless!), and usually come over and ask me something about my army, even though the Fantasy scene at my shop is quite small. I really, really appreciate that. They also know me and my habits, and the managers always chat me up about Fantasy, again, despite there being not much of a a scene.
Notice a theme here ? I don't own it, but it's "my" LGS. I play there a lot. So for me, personally, I buy at least 90+ % of stuff from there, and the only stuff i don't buy from them are OOP stuff i can't get anymore that i trade for on bartertown, or stuff they can't get through their distribution chain (which i also then usually trade for on bartertown).
So yeah, i buy most of my stuff there because i want it to be there next week when i go there. And the week after that. And after that... and the only way i can do that is to make sure that i'm spending what i spend on minis in their shop to help their cashflow, so the place i love to go to to play WHFB, 40k, X-wing, the occasional game of magic, pokemon for my son, and probably in the not too distant future, Warmachine again, is still there the next time I go.
Just me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 00:08:29
You need to remember that the game tables are not being offered "for free". Stores with game tables also sell snacks or at least drinks which is added income. The space required to house the tables are paid for by the seating for events such as tournaments and so forth. It is also paid for by the profits from the sale of full priced items. Now, if the items were sold at a discount or there were other perks the stores would have VERY little competition from the online retailers as the prices would be near the same and the customer would not have to wait. The additional revenue/profits that this would get them would be gravy.
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
There are 3 stores near me, one with retail, the other is the infamous Frontline gaming. I buy only fRob frontline. Because if I'm going to order something, I might as well get a discount.
I only visit the others. One is the big honcho around. People come from San jose. And he is an ass. He acts that if you don't buy from him, you are preventing his kid from going to college.
5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
2015/01/28 00:27:51
Subject: Supporting your local store vs. saving a lot of money
hotsauceman1 wrote: There are 3 stores near me, one with retail, the other is the infamous Frontline gaming. I buy only fRob frontline. Because if I'm going to order something, I might as well get a discount.
I only visit the others. One is the big honcho around. People come from San jose. And he is an ass. He acts that if you don't buy from him, you are preventing his kid from going to college.
As long as you don't game in his store or on his tables... then you don't have a problem then and his kid can work at burger king because you don't game in his store. If you buy from an online discounter and then openly game frequently in the 'other guys' store... you are the ass... not him for calling you out on it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 00:28:52
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2015/01/28 00:31:23
Subject: Supporting your local store vs. saving a lot of money
hotsauceman1 wrote: Oh I game there, alot. With armies purchased from his competition. I also love it when I win his tournamenuts and get free stuff from him.
Then that makes you the ass then. You are the worst type of person. He is right to call you out. He should probably ban you from his store to make room for paying customers.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2015/01/28 00:35:52
Subject: Supporting your local store vs. saving a lot of money
Thats where the rub comes in. If the store offers you a discount, treats customers good, you WONT want to buy online because you can get the stuff at the store for the same price as online and why wait? Especially if the store is good to you. This will mean that as a side effect, the store will sell more items and have a greater profit at the end of the day.
Huh, whoda thunk it? A win/win for everyone.
The availability of tables does not even factor in. If they have tables, they would have them even if they didnt sell miniatures as they are mainly provided for card players.
You also need to remember that if they have tables, YOU are doing THEM a favor by playing there just as much as they are doing you one by having them as it gives them free advertising and gives them free demo games in order to sell more product. You arent charging them for your services of giving them free advertising and demo games are you?
The ideal is a you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours where you get the combination of both opposing views. The whole "you must pay full retail and buy everything off me or else" view and the "I'll never buy anything and instead mooch off you" views are not the way to go. It is in the grey between where both sides are happy and profitable.
clively wrote: "EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
Or he should offer discounts and incentives for me to buy there the discount store is a town over, he is literally down the street.
he should also stock more, if I have to order, I'm going to discount because they take just as long
5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
2015/01/28 00:37:42
Subject: Supporting your local store vs. saving a lot of money
If the tournaments have their own fees, then the tournament fee can be assumed to cover all of its own costs. If he is paying to play, then there should be no further obligation to buy from the store.
OTOH, if it's a store league with weekly games, and no fees, then he should be expected to buy his league army / additions from the store.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 02:02:45
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2015/01/28 00:39:50
Subject: Supporting your local store vs. saving a lot of money
JohnHwangDD wrote: If the tournaments have their own fees, then the tournament fee can be assumed to cover all of its own costs. If he is paying to play, then there should be no further obligation to buy from the store.
OTOH, if it's a store league with weekly games, and no fees, then he should be expected to buy his league army / additions from the store.
Sound I also not use forge world because it was not bought in his store?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/28 02:02:56
5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
2015/01/28 00:42:31
Subject: Supporting your local store vs. saving a lot of money
EVIL INC wrote:Also not that the tables seem to see more action from the card gamers than they do the wargamers.
However, even with a 15-20% discount, the sapce for tables is more than paid for through volume of sales. The entire pay full price plus tax for everything to support your store is faulty. A store that has a discount sells a greater volume than the store that sells at full price so the overall end profit is higher for them. The key is finding the percentage that maximises this end profit maximum. It is not just the "principles" of the consumers that needs to be looked at but also the "principles" of the sellers as well. Those who offer discounts or other perks have more of us players buy from them so they come out further ahead by offering them.
Ask mikhaila how he feels about discounts. I don't ask my FLGS owner for discounts, just like I don't ask for a discount from my grocery store, convenence store, or any other retail store I shop at. If your FLGS offers you a discount freely, then that's his/her business decision and hopefully they've done their due diligence on how that impacts their ability to stay in business.
Melevolence wrote:
No, I'm sticking it to them by buying from people who quite the game or are looking to change factions. GW gets not a penny from my purchases on Ebay. (Unless in a roundabout way they do because the guy I bought from spends that money on GW, but that's besides the point. They LOSE revenue because I wont pay THEM for my models)
Hey, second-hand models are cool by me. I buy a ton of them out of my FLGS' trade-in bin. But even I understand that second-hand models don't necessarily stop GW from getting your money. As you pointed out, you're just buying GW by proxy rather than just handing them the money yourself.
The point is to support your shop if you game there; however, if they don't sell it, you can't buy it. It's not your fault they don't stock what you're buying. But if they are stocking it, and you're buying one, then you should make the effort to give them your business.
Do your friends buy their stuff there ? (i swear, i'm not trying to entrap you, despite my clear position in my earlier post, this is not what i'm driving at... i am trying to understand.... i actually find it IMPOSSIBLE to go to stores owned or frequented by people i don't like).
Remember Rule #1, please, or the thread will not be able to remain open... it's possible to have a spirited debate without resorting to insults! Thanks.
2015/01/28 00:55:37
Subject: Supporting your local store vs. saving a lot of money
hotsauceman1 wrote: Even though I can get it cheaper? With no detriment. Not even waiting? And evenot if I hate the owner?
Why play at his store if you hate him ?
hotsauceman1 wrote:My friends game there.
LOL. This is why I love the Internet. Let's simultaneously pretend like I have no other options, then vociferously debate the people who try to provide me with reasons why I have other options.
Your house? Their house? Build your own table? Buy a gaming mat? Maybe?
I'm not going to argue with anyone about where they choose to buy, but I think everyone should at least consider the following
1) Do you game at a FLGS?
2) How much is having a FLGS around worth to you?
3) Are you spending that much at your FLGS?
4) If not, Why?
For my self, My club usually meets at home and rarely games at a FLGS. I'm there about once every 2 months. If they went away it wouldn't affect my gaming much, and they don't carry much that I want to buy. Still, I like them, appreciate gaming there, and I buy and sell good amount stuff at their bi-annual auction, so I try and buy something most times I'm there.
However, I have no qualms about 95% of the rest of what I buy being online and/or used.
For those who game regularly at a FLGS, but do most of their shopping online, that's your choice, but don't whine that you have nowhere to play if they close.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 01:07:15
More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)
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