What will happen when the Lion wakes up?

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**jreilly89**

Frazzled wrote:
raiden wrote:
When the lion comes back he will, based off his BL books, begin a new crusade to make safe the universe. Probably starting with chaos.

Or alternatively, the theories that he actually sided with chaos - and that the Unforgiven are the good guys comes to pass as he leads an unholy crusade to take back the galaxy.

His first order of business should be to usurp Failbaddon for mucking everything up for 10,000 years, then unite the legions, then to Terra to fell the corpse god.

Assuming he did turn to Chaos, I think he would surpass Abaddon quite easily

**Lord Blackscale**

Just like all the other chaos primarchs did.... oh wait.

**BrianDavion**

kveldulf wrote:
Unfortunately, I see the 41st High Lords of Terra as more self serving bureaucratic and thus, would order the assassination of ANY primarch coming back into the galaxy.

Heck, since the BL writers just couldn't help but bleed their own personal beliefs into 30k (Imperium being about secular/atheism. I tend to filter this out in my version of 30k), that the current Ecclesiarchy would immediately declare a primarch a heretic - once they started blabbing about the Imperial Truth.

I know this is a bit of a tangent, and I apologize for any feathers I'm about to ruffle, but any 'superhuman, demigod' like creature accepting the notion of secularism and atheism as a legitimate way, has failed somewhere fundamentally. If anything, I could only see them as a tool at best.

The matter of ultimate reality is a subject that the Emperor and primarchs should have a solid understanding of - if they truly were superior. Fleshing out the 'Imperial Truth' as a way of life, with no ultimate purpose other than the dominance of humanity over a galaxy, with no eternal answers, is beyond hollow in believability.

I never saw it as trying to bleed in their personal belives so much as further grim darking the Heresy, by basicly having the entire IoM as we know it in direct oppisition to what the emperor was actually trying to achomplish

**jreilly89**

Lord Blackscale wrote:
Just like all the other chaos primarchs did.... oh wait.

? Not sure what you mean, but Horus did more to damage the IoM than Abaddon ever did.

**morganfreeman**

jreilly89 wrote:
Lord Blackscale wrote:
Just like all the other chaos primarchs did.... oh wait.

? Not sure what you mean, but Horus did more to damage the IoM than Abaddon ever did.

I think he means that Abaddon is still alive, kicking, and fighting the good fight. Horus and several of the others are dead, and those who still survive are pretty much non-issues and unable to replace Abby as the "leader" of the traitor forces.

**tikhunt**

The other traitor primarchs are daemon though so can't lead forces out of the warp unless summoned and then go back after an amount of time. I'm sure a non daemon primarch would vastly surpass abaddon in favor.

**morganfreeman**

tikhunt wrote:
The other traitor primarchs are daemon though so can't lead forces out of the warp unless summoned and then go back after an amount of time. I'm sure a non daemon primarch would vastly surpass abaddon in favor.

Arguable. Abaddon is favored by all of the Gods, not just one like each of the Primarchs.

**tikhunt**

morganfreeman wrote:
tikhunt wrote:
The other traitor primarchs are daemon though so can't lead forces out of the warp unless summoned and then go back after an amount of time. I'm sure a non daemon primarch would vastly surpass abaddon in favor.

Arguable. Abaddon is favored by all of the Gods, not just one like each of the Primarchs.

Well both Lorgar and Pertuarbo are undivided.

**Lord Blackscale**

All the surviving chaos primarchs were made to swear fealty to Abbadon, iirc.

**TiamatRoar**

IIRC they didn't swear fealty to him so much as pledge their support for the 13th Black Crusade. It still is impressive that Abaddon got the support of ALL of them, though (with the exception of Magnus, possibly. Instead he got Ahriman IIRC).

**jreilly89**

Lord Blackscale wrote:
All the surviving chaos primarchs were made to swear fealty to Abbadon, iirc.

Well, I think its time for a revision. After 12(13) crusades, not much has happened

**BrianDavion**

TiamatRoar wrote:
IIRC they didn't swear fealty to him so much as pledge their support for the 13th Black Crusade. It still is impressive that Abaddon got the support of ALL of them, though (with the exception of Magnus, possibly. Instead he got Ahriman IIRC).

Talon of Horus refers, multiple times, to Magnus being forced to kneel before Abaddon.

**mhacdebhandia**

kveldulf wrote:
Heck, since the BL writers just couldn't help but bleed their own personal beliefs into 30k (Imperium being about secular/atheism. I tend to filter this out in my version of 30k)

I thought this was supposed to be ironic, given that the Imperial Truth as taught to the Imperium of 30K deliberately conceals the existence of Chaos daemons and sorcery?

In other words, Imperial Truth is an atheist and materialist creed, but the Warhammer universe contains both gods and the supernatural. That's deliberate, I think. The Emperor wants his Imperium to be rational and materialist, because he thinks it will keep it safe from the supernatural powers of the Warp, but he's wrong. It just leaves the citizens and the Astartes, especially, vulnerable in their ignorance.

**Lord Blackscale**

One thing to remember is that the 4 gods goals for Abbadon are not necessarily the same as his own. Just because he hasn't topple the Imperium, doesn't mean he is a failure.

**jreilly89**

Lord Blackscale wrote:
One thing to remember is that the 4 gods goals for Abbadon are not necessarily the same as his own. Just because he hasn't topple the Imperium, doesn't mean he is a failure.

Still, he's had how many tries?

**Grey Templar**

Lord Blackscale wrote:
One thing to remember is that the 4 gods goals for Abbadon are not necessarily the same as his own. Just because he hasn't topple the Imperium, doesn't mean he is a failure.

Maybe not in their eyes. But his goal is to destroy the Imperium, and at that he isn't doing so hot. Most of the Daemon Primarchs are off doing their own thing too.

**jreilly89**

Grey Templar wrote:
Lord Blackscale wrote:
One thing to remember is that the 4 gods goals for Abbadon are not necessarily the same as his own. Just because he hasn't topple the Imperium, doesn't mean he is a failure.

Maybe not in their eyes. But his goal is to destroy the Imperium, and at that he isn't doing so hot. Most of the Daemon Primarchs are off doing their own thing too.

Wouldn't one of their goals be to destroy the IoM? I'm not saying everyone, but I would think that at least Angron or Magnus would want to come back and would probably be better at leading the next crusade.

**Grey Templar**

No. The Chaos Gods want everything to remain basically how it is. A perpetual state of war and chaos. Destroying the Imperium wouldn't accomplish that.

They want the Imperium to remain for eternity, a foe for them to fight.

**Mr.Omega**

Being a Dark Angel, and having the inherent Chapter trait of being irrelevant and unimpressive (cough being incapacitated by a non-Marine cough), he'd probably win a few battles and then get killed by something nasty. The Eldar or Chaos would have it in their interests to see him dead to stop the Imperium from getting a brand new Primarch Warmaster or even leader along with all the conquest and death that'd bring , since he'd probably try to get in that position being the arrogant schmuck he is.

The Inquisition would have a few words with him, question how he just showed up out of the blue with no warning, and then try to remove him as well as soon as he started motioning towards assuming control over Imperial forces or sectors, since they're equally as big pricks as he is.

Bonus (G.O.T season three spoilers)

Spoiler:

**jreilly89**

Grey Templar wrote:
No. The Chaos Gods want everything to remain basically how it is. A perpetual state of war and chaos. Destroying the Imperium wouldn't accomplish that.

They want the Imperium to remain for eternity, a foe for them to fight.

Sorry, I suppose I should have been clearer. I know the gods want balance, but don't the Primarchs want revenge?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr.Omega wrote:
Being a Dark Angel, and having the inherent Chapter trait of being irrelevant and unimpressive (cough being incapacitated by a non-Marine cough), he'd probably win a few battles and then get killed by something nasty. The Eldar or Chaos would have it in their interests to see him dead to stop the Imperium from getting a brand new Primarch Warmaster or even leader along with all the conquest and death that'd bring , since he'd probably try to get in that position being the arrogant schmuck he is.

The Inquisition would have a few words with him, question how he just showed up out of the blue with no warning, and then try to remove him as well as soon as he started motioning towards assuming control over Imperial forces or sectors, since they're equally as big pricks as he is.

Bonus (G.O.T season three spoilers)

Spoiler:

In a manner of speaking he'd be like Robb Stark, but in the 41st millennium.

Well alrighty then. Did the IoM take your lunch money?

**Inkubas**

Unremembered empire quoted 20,000 dark angels in empirum second us. In master of the first, there were 30,000 dark angels on Caliban. At the destruction of Caliban, I'd imagine both sides would have lost heavy numbers.

**dusara217**

Inkubas wrote:
Unremembered empire quoted 20,000 dark angels in empirum second us. In master of the first, there were 30,000 dark angels on Caliban. At the destruction of Caliban, I'd imagine both sides would have lost heavy numbers.

Again, there was only half a chapter of Crusaders on Dusara when Luther first rebelled, along with a recently finished Scout Chapter. So those 30k were Astartes trained during the 7 years during the Heresy, and the DA were spread pretty thin, with the bulk of their forces NOT at Imperium Secundus.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, the DA still had around 115k during their war with the Night Lords, wherein just about all of then we're engaged with the NL. 20k of the survivors of the war with the NL went to the Imperium Secundus to be dicks to the Smurfs while an undetermined number stated behind and mopped up the NL and were spread all across the galaxy

**Inkubas**

Where are you getting 115,000 Dark Angels? I'm not trying to come off as confrontational, I'm just curious as to the source of this number. I'd imagine that after the heresy all the legions were crippled to a fraction of their strength thus being easier to break into chapters. Doesn't help that Caliban (the exclusive recruitment planet of the Dark Angels) was destroyed.

Additionally, I love the Dark Angels lore and want to know all about the chapters. Eagerly awaiting the next installment of books.

**dusara217**

Inkubas wrote:
Where are you getting 115,000 Dark Angels? I'm not trying to come off as confrontational, I'm just curious as to the source of this number. I'd imagine that after the heresy all the legions were crippled to a fraction of their strength thus being easier to break into chapters. Doesn't help that Caliban (the exclusive recruitment planet of the Dark Angels) was destroyed.

Additionally, I love the Dark Angels lore and want to know all about the chapters. Eagerly awaiting the next installment of books.

115k is the official average number of Astartes in an average Legion.

**BrianDavion**

dusara217 wrote:
Inkubas wrote:
Where are you getting 115,000 Dark Angels? I'm not trying to come off as confrontational, I'm just curious as to the source of this number. I'd imagine that after the heresy all the legions were crippled to a fraction of their strength thus being easier to break into chapters. Doesn't help that Caliban (the exclusive recruitment planet of the Dark Angels) was destroyed.

Additionally, I love the Dark Angels lore and want to know all about the chapters. Eagerly awaiting the next installment of books.

115k is the official average number of Astartes in an average Legion.

isn't that average skewed by the Ultramarines apparently being so much bigger though? also that's the pre-heresy average. I imagine most legions numbers where lower after the heresy. especially when you realize the dark angels proably where getting ZERO replacement troops during the conflict

**dusara217**

BrianDavion wrote:
dusara217 wrote:
Inkubas wrote:
Where are you getting 115,000 Dark Angels? I'm not trying to come off as confrontational, I'm just curious as to the source of this number. I'd imagine that after the heresy all the legions were crippled to a fraction of their strength thus being easier to break into chapters. Doesn't help that Caliban (the exclusive recruitment planet of the Dark Angels) was destroyed.

Additionally, I love the Dark Angels lore and want to know all about the chapters. Eagerly awaiting the next installment of books.

115k is the official average number of Astartes in an average Legion.

isn't that average skewed by the Ultramarines apparently being so much bigger though? also that's the pre-heresy average. I imagine most legions numbers where lower after the heresy. especially when you realize the dark angels proably where getting ZERO replacement troops during the conflict

Hence the 70k hopeful estimate I gave. I'd say closer to 50k, though. And, the Dark Angels were said to be of average size, so I'd assume they were around that number.

**Bronzefists42**

I don't want to see primarchs in 40k since that's the most of the appeal of HH games.

**EngulfedObject**

dusara217 wrote:
Hence the 70k hopeful estimate I gave. I'd say closer to 50k, though. And, the Dark Angels were said to be of average size, so I'd assume they were around that number.

50k is a good number but a low estimate. That would still be only 0.05% of all chapters (using 1000 as the average number). If you only look at known successors (11 being the figure given earlier in the thread), that's a measly 0.012% of all chapters. Given how pure the Dark Angels geneseed is, this seems extremely unlikely, even with the High Lords' reluctance to form new chapters.

We're looking at potentially 50k+ Dark Angels at the time of the Second Founding. It's likely there have been more foundings in the 10k years since then. 10 thousand years is a long time. We haven't even been able to write for that long.

**BrianDavion**

EngulfedObject wrote:
dusara217 wrote:
Hence the 70k hopeful estimate I gave. I'd say closer to 50k, though. And, the Dark Angels were said to be of average size, so I'd assume they were around that number.

50k is a good number but a low estimate. That would still be only 0.05% of all chapters (using 1000 as the average number). If you only look at known successors (11 being the figure given earlier in the thread), that's a measly 0.012% of all chapters. Given how pure the Dark Angels geneseed is, this seems extremely unlikely, even with the High Lords' reluctance to form new chapters.

We're looking at potentially 50k+ Dark Angels at the time of the Second Founding. It's likely there have been more foundings in the 10k years since then. 10 thousand years is a long time. We haven't even been able to write for that long.

true but one thing to consider are that just cause you're founded with the gene seed of one chapter doesn't nesscarily mean the chapter knows or cares. if the high lords where concerned about legion building I suspect they'd be tight lipped more often then not about when they used Dark Angel geneseed. if they don't TELL the dark angels their geneseed is being used to found the Random Chapter. the the inital trainers of the random chapter, are brought in from say... Ultramarines, chances are their connection with the unforgiven will be pretty minimal. the dark angels noted gene seed purity would even work against them as there would be precious few genetic tells to tell the differance between their geneseed and say... Ultramarines geneseed.

**EngulfedObject**

BrianDavion wrote:
true but one thing to consider are that just cause you're founded with the gene seed of one chapter doesn't nesscarily mean the chapter knows or cares. if the high lords where concerned about legion building I suspect they'd be tight lipped more often then not about when they used Dark Angel geneseed. if they don't TELL the dark angels their geneseed is being used to found the Random Chapter. the the inital trainers of the random chapter, are brought in from say... Ultramarines, chances are their connection with the unforgiven will be pretty minimal. the dark angels noted gene seed purity would even work against them as there would be precious few genetic tells to tell the differance between their geneseed and say... Ultramarines geneseed.

Yea, I agree, not all successor chapters would be part of the Unforgiven. Most of the Unforgiven are probably from the Second Founding since the founding members of these chapters would have been directly involved in the events on Caliban.

Still, 11 chapters is too low an estimate for the Unforgiven. I think only 3 of them are confirmed as Second Founding chapters. Surely there were more than 4000 Dark Angels left at the end of the Heresy?

I like the idea of not telling the parent chapters when their geneseed is used

Actually, if anything, that would only mean there are even more Dark Angels successors since the High Lords would be able to use their pure geneseed more freely.