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It's all a moot point however, none of the primarchs would become Warmaster without the High Lords of Terra's blessing.

 Orblivion wrote:
It's all a moot point however, none of the primarchs would become Warmaster without the High Lords of Terra's blessing.

True, BUT that could be an interesting story. Say the Lion wants to become Warmaster to dive in to the Eye of Terror to pursue Chaos and try to rescue the other Primarchs, but the High Lords of Terra say no. Cue civil war

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
It's all a moot point however, none of the primarchs would become Warmaster without the High Lords of Terra's blessing.

True, BUT that could be an interesting story. Say the Lion wants to become Warmaster to dive in to the Eye of Terror to pursue Chaos and try to rescue the other Primarchs, but the High Lords of Terra say no. Cue civil war

Which would be the dumbest thing the Lion could possibly do. The Imperium cannot afford an internal power struggle of that scale in light of what it currently faces, he could very well doom the entire Imperium by pressing the issue. However there are several primarchs, the Lion included, who I can imagine being arrogant enough to do it anyway.

 Orblivion wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
It's all a moot point however, none of the primarchs would become Warmaster without the High Lords of Terra's blessing.

True, BUT that could be an interesting story. Say the Lion wants to become Warmaster to dive in to the Eye of Terror to pursue Chaos and try to rescue the other Primarchs, but the High Lords of Terra say no. Cue civil war

Which would be the dumbest thing the Lion could possibly do. The Imperium cannot afford an internal power struggle of that scale in light of what it currently faces, he could very well doom the entire Imperium by pressing the issue. However there are several primarchs, the Lion included, who I can imagine being arrogant enough to do it anyway.

I think that would qualify as "End Times" don't get me wrong, I think that sort of action by any of the Primarchs (I think the Lion or Russ would be ballsy enough to do it, I don't think Guilliman would be that arrogant) would absolutely doom the Imperium, either letting Chaos or Tyranids finish them off. I don't think Tau or Eldar would be ballsy enough to capitalize on it and I don't think Orkz would have the foresight to raise a WAAGH!! and finish off the Imperium. Necrons are a possibility, but again, I don't know if they could raise a force large enough in time

In Unremembered Empire, Lion and Guilliman discuss Lion becoming the Emperor of Imperium Secundus, well, at least until Sanguinius turns up.

The lion is actually very moody. He is both taciturn, yet charming, introverted yet extroverted, anti-social,_ yet social.

(At least if you believe the BL authors...)

Personally I see lion as a reasonably charming man, that tends to keep to himself and his thoughts most of the time, thus is labeled the way he is.

 Vermis wrote:
I'd guess the jungle, the mighty jungle, won't be so quiet anymore.

i see what you did there...

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
But I don't think he could gain their support. A lot of Primarchs were against the Codex Astartes

But there were more of them for it than there were against it.

Dorn was against it initially but changed his mind, plus he's dead.
Vulkan, Corax, Khan, and obviously Guilliman were for it.
Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus are dead.
That only leaves the Lion and Russ who were against it.

I thought Dorn was rumored. I know they have his hand, but he is still a Primarch. Khan is somewhere in the webway. That leaves Vulkan, Corax and Guilliman against the Lion and Russ. It's tough to say, but I think, depending on how/who woke up, it would be hard for Guilliman to be the leader.

Assuming it went:
-Lion wakes up
-Cure is found for Guilliman

Then either Dorn, Corax, Russ, or Vulkan would return, then somehow try to rescue Khan. I don't think Guilliman could be leader if it was only , say, Vulkan, Guilliman, and the Lion. I think it would have to be at least 3/4 of the Primarchs against the Lion for him to concede to follow Guilliman.

Guilliman would be better at it, but the Lion only really had Russ hatin' on him, so I'd say that the Lion would have a pretty good chance of leading if it came down to that. However, it seems more likely that the Lion would start a bloody civil war and the other Primarchs would just pick sides (most probably for the Lion). Now, if the Lion were to just join up with the Imperium, then he'd probably demand a place as a High Lord or something, but he wouldn't actually take command of other Legions/Chapters.

 GKTiberius wrote:

 Vermis wrote:
I'd guess the jungle, the mighty jungle, won't be so quiet anymore.

i see what you did there...

Sad to say I did not and it took me a while and now I can't stop laughing

It seems like if the Lion did wake up, the Unforgiven would form the 1st Legion again.

The Lion would probably become a war-leader, if not Warmaster. He has the greatest strategic mind, and would have the clout of a Legion behind him. It takes some awful stupid to argue with the greatest tactical mind in the Imperium when he has a significant portion of the Imperium's might behind him.

Should the other Primarch's return, hopefully they would learn from the last 10'000 years, and work together.

My $0.02.

 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:


Should the other Primarch's return, hopefully they would learn from the last 10'000 years, and work together.

My $0.02.

Not likely, since they're all dead, dying, or living trophies at this point.

as for if multiple primarchs return, it really depends. Russ is..... I don't wanna say unambitious, but his ambitious are from what I can tell fairly simple. he wants to be out there fighting the good fight, he'll take actions to address problems he sees, but he's not really intreasted in higher offices. The Lion, it's hard to tell, oddly I think the greatest threat to the high lords would be Gulliman. the man is a builder of empires, and a tinkerer of empires, he was the guy who took charge after the Heresy and thus a LOT of the IoMs structures are ones laid by him. I can't see him not pushing for changes and reform to "get things working better" the high lords will gleefully accept a primarch whose mostly intreasted in being a general, but one who wants to get in and tinker with the sturcture of the Imperium is apt to make a LOT of enemies

Wait, ain't Dorn missing cranium a bit?

 koooaei wrote:
Wait, ain't Dorn missing cranium a bit?

No, but he is missing a hand at the very least. There is the slight possibility that he might still be alive.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Wouldn't he first have to forgive Luther or Luthor (who for no good reason is laying in the room next to him, hope he doesn't have a fit of insainity or something and decides to break out) for his treachery? Then he could move on and do whatever a just awoken Primarch needs to do?

This is a good point, what would he do about Luther? One would think that would be his first item on the "ol' to-do" list.

Most likely he executes Luther. He was trying to kill him right before he took the ol'e dirt nap.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Most likely he executes Luther. He was trying to kill him right before he took the ol'e dirt nap.

Hmmm, not sure. Luther was such an asset to the Lion. Then again, I doubt he would take well to a "plea of insanity".

They were best buddies, but thats why the betrayal elicited such anger. The Lion was not pleased.

When the Lion wakes he would execute Luthor first and rebuild his legion second. Then there would be a HUGE problem with his existence.
The high lords exist because the primarchs are out of the picture but if any primarch returns then there would be a power struggle. The primarchs are the 'sons' of the Emperor and thus would be the closest thing to living gods that the Imperium has. They would be the most fit to lead it.
The Lion existing would cause problems with the High Lords and the Inquisition as he would refute the divinity of the Emperor. This would label him as a fake or fraud and would probably lead to open war. The Dark Angel legion would be hard pressed on all sides it would lead to an interesting story arch where the Legion is excommunicated from the Imperium and may even help overthrow the corrupt Imperium.

Additional twist would be if Robute wakes up to lead the forces for the High Lords. Trying to keep his father's dream of a united (even if failing empire) over more civil war. After all, the road to hell is paved in good intentions.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Wait, ain't Dorn missing cranium a bit?

No, but he is missing a hand at the very least. There is the slight possibility that he might still be alive.

He is still a Primarch. I'd hardly call it slight


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krug001 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Most likely he executes Luther. He was trying to kill him right before he took the ol'e dirt nap.

Hmmm, not sure. Luther was such an asset to the Lion. Then again, I doubt he would take well to a "plea of insanity".

My guess would be to do the same as they do with all the Fallen: make the repent via torture, then grant them death when they admit their sins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inkubas wrote:
When the Lion wakes he would execute Luthor first and rebuild his legion second. Then there would be a HUGE problem with his existence.
The high lords exist because the primarchs are out of the picture but if any primarch returns then there would be a power struggle. The primarchs are the 'sons' of the Emperor and thus would be the closest thing to living gods that the Imperium has. They would be the most fit to lead it.
The Lion existing would cause problems with the High Lords and the Inquisition as he would refute the divinity of the Emperor. This would label him as a fake or fraud and would probably lead to open war. The Dark Angel legion would be hard pressed on all sides it would lead to an interesting story arch where the Legion is excommunicated from the Imperium and may even help overthrow the corrupt Imperium.

Additional twist would be if Robute wakes up to lead the forces for the High Lords. Trying to keep his father's dream of a united (even if failing empire) over more civil war. After all, the road to hell is paved in good intentions.

What do you mean hard pressed? I think the Imperium would have a hard time waging war on the Rock, let alone with the Lion guiding them.

I don't think that the DA legion would be able to take out the IoM even with the Lion leading them. Plus there are a TON of defenses in place in the Sector Solar that would turn the Rock into space dust.

Here are all the current chapters from Dark Angels:
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Redemption
Angels of Vengeance
Angels of Vigilance
Angels of Wrath
Consecrators
Disciples of Caliban
Guardians of the Covenant
Lions Sable
Persecutors of Darkness

Including the Dark Angels you're working with 11 (known) chapters. So you've have about 11,000 but we all know that they don't adhere to the codex as stringently as some chapters so let's generally buff up those numbers to 14,000.

So 14,000 dark angels lead by the Lion against Mars (Titans,Skirtari legions), The High lords, and the Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial Navy. Assuming that the rock is attacking the Sol system you're looking at MASSIVE fortifications. This is not including any additional space marine chapters like the Minotaur, Red Hunters, and Grey Knights that may side with the IoM over the lion.

I'm sure the return of any Primarch would be relatively peaceful.

They would likely be given a seat on the High Lords of Terra, but their time would be more valuable as generals leading the defense of the Imperium. So they'd probably leave mundane tasks of governance to the High Lords.

Not Grimdark enough.

 Inkubas wrote:
I don't think that the DA legion would be able to take out the IoM even with the Lion leading them. Plus there are a TON of defenses in place in the Sector Solar that would turn the Rock into space dust.

Here are all the current chapters from Dark Angels:
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Redemption
Angels of Vengeance
Angels of Vigilance
Angels of Wrath
Consecrators
Disciples of Caliban
Guardians of the Covenant
Lions Sable
Persecutors of Darkness

Including the Dark Angels you're working with 11 (known) chapters. So you've have about 11,000 but we all know that they don't adhere to the codex as stringently as some chapters so let's generally buff up those numbers to 14,000.

So 14,000 dark angels lead by the Lion against Mars (Titans,Skirtari legions), The High lords, and the Inquisition, the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial Navy. Assuming that the rock is attacking the Sol system you're looking at MASSIVE fortifications. This is not including any additional space marine chapters like the Minotaur, Red Hunters, and Grey Knights that may side with the IoM over the lion.

I'm not saying he would attack with the Rock. If anything, once the Lion realized this, he would either use guerilla attacks on the IoM or just defensively attack with the Rock. He would be smart enough to realize an all out attack would fail.

 jreilly89 wrote:

I'm not saying he would attack with the Rock. If anything, once the Lion realized this, he would either use guerilla attacks on the IoM or just defensively attack with the Rock. He would be smart enough to realize an all out attack would fail.

Huron + 1.
Or more than +1. He's a primarch after all.

I think that if GW wishes to return primarchs in regular 40k, they'd be much more evil than before. Even the generally 'good' ones.

The rock is pretty much the most powerful ship in the entire imperium so the defences of sector solar shouldn't be a problem. Aslo 15% of all space marines chapters are dark angel successors so they are bring with them a massive navy and army. And even if there are to many imperial navy ships they can just have their deathwing and deathwing successors to teleport onto the ships and disable them.

He'd probably either work towards curing/finding the others, or quietly move from the shadows off the bat. If word of him waking up became public knowledge, I'm guessing the Chaos Primarchs would become more active as well. And if we thought an armless loser was a pain in the ass...

The rock is pretty much the most powerful ship in the entire imperium so the defences of sector solar shouldn't be a problem. Aslo 15% of all space marines chapters are dark angel successors so they are bring with them a massive navy and army. And even if there are to many imperial navy ships they can just have their deathwing and deathwing successors to teleport onto the ships and disable them.

And I'm pretty sure the Phalanx is the most powerful ship owned by a Space Marine Chapter, and you can bet Chapters like the Imperial Fists and their successors (the second most populous successor line after the Ultramarines) would stand against the Dark Angels if they tried to launch an attack on Holy Terra.

Because, it wouldn't matter who you are, if you attack the Throneworld, you are a traitor.

I mean, if you are going to assume all of the Dark Angel successors are going to line up behind the Dark Angels, it only stands to reason that the close Imperial Fist successors (Feast of Blades is an example of them regularly getting together) would unite to fight off a renegade group of chapters.

And then there's the Ultramarines, who, if even half of their successors answered their call, would outnumber the other former legions all put together pretty handily.

That's not even mentioning that Terra wouldn't need any Space Marine chapters to intervene, seeing as it has the most powerful fleet in the Imperium hovering over it. And then there's the defenses around Mars, Titan, the Imperial Palace's defenses on the ground that shoot into orbit, the Lunar Bases...

And I'd love to see them teleport onto a ship in the defense fleet around Holy Terra, Void Shields up and everything. Scatter some Deathwing across the immaterium.

Oh the joy of unleashing such as The Minotaurs, The Executioners, and of course The Carchardarons Astra upon the Dark Angels. With all the forces of the IoM against them, Lion would be crapping his litter box.

 Crazyterran wrote:

Because, it wouldn't matter who you are, if you attack the Throneworld, you are a traitor.

The combined forces of the Space marines marched on (and attacked) Holy Terra to end the Reign of Blood / Age of Apostacy(sp). The Imperial Fists were not there defending they were one of those attacking.

I'm quite certain that the same thing was done -again- when there was an unacceptable amount of inactivity due to a few gaps in the Highlords of Terra, and the potential people to fill those gaps arguing, bickering, and politicing all over the place to get the seat they wanted. Space Marines (en mass) showed up, locked the Highlords (and potential Highlords) in a room with a few chapter masters. A day or so went by, not everyone came back out, and the issue was settled.

Suffice it to say that attacking Terra nor even pushing about the Highlords themselves does not automatically make you a traitor. If the Dark Angels started to carpet bomb the world and expressed interest in dethoning the Emperor? Absolutely would plenty of other chapters turn against them. But if the Lion merely wanted to wrest control away from the corrupt and impotent Highlords of Terra? There's a very good chance he'd have many a non-angels chapter backing him, or at least not interfering.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'm sure the return of any Primarch would be relatively peaceful.

They would likely be given a seat on the High Lords of Terra, but their time would be more valuable as generals leading the defense of the Imperium. So they'd probably leave mundane tasks of governance to the High Lords.

While not Grimdark enough, it would be likely. Military leaders , such as the Lion, often defer governance in order to pursue a campaign. As many others have said, I am certain that campaign would be hunting the Fallen.

This would be very inline with the Lion's position after the Emperor showed up on Caliban. Rather this would be an awkward reversal of that situation.

Though I could see after/during the campaign against the Fallen, the Lion attempting to get his chapter (the Inner Circle) back inline; regarding the truth about the Emperor. Still, I think Jonson would be tactically sound enough to not go head-long into battle against the entire Imperium. I mean, what could be more "Dark Angel-ly" than putting on a front and brooding secretively about secret, secrets. Which has its own Grimdark appeal. "A chapter (legion?) bent on the day they can spring their plan to return the Emperium to is previous glory."