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 EngulfedObject wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
true but one thing to consider are that just cause you're founded with the gene seed of one chapter doesn't nesscarily mean the chapter knows or cares. if the high lords where concerned about legion building I suspect they'd be tight lipped more often then not about when they used Dark Angel geneseed. if they don't TELL the dark angels their geneseed is being used to found the Random Chapter. the the inital trainers of the random chapter, are brought in from say... Ultramarines, chances are their connection with the unforgiven will be pretty minimal. the dark angels noted gene seed purity would even work against them as there would be precious few genetic tells to tell the differance between their geneseed and say... Ultramarines geneseed.

Yea, I agree, not all successor chapters would be part of the Unforgiven. Most of the Unforgiven are probably from the Second Founding since the founding members of these chapters would have been directly involved in the events on Caliban.

Still, 11 chapters is too low an estimate for the Unforgiven. I think only 3 of them are confirmed as Second Founding chapters. Surely there were more than 4000 Dark Angels left at the end of the Heresy?

I like the idea of not telling the parent chapters when their geneseed is used

Actually, if anything, that would only mean there are even more Dark Angels successors since the High Lords would be able to use their pure geneseed more freely.

I said that there were at least 50k Dark Angels at the end of the Heresy, so there should be at least twice that by 40k.

 dusara217 wrote:
I said that there were at least 50k Dark Angels at the end of the Heresy, so there should be at least twice that by 40k.

Then the battle of Caliban happened I presume. That should have put quite the dent into their numbers.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
I said that there were at least 50k Dark Angels at the end of the Heresy, so there should be at least twice that by 40k.

Then the battle of Caliban happened I presume. That should have put quite the dent into their numbers.

Not really. Caliban was essentially one teleport assault followed by exterminatus.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
I said that there were at least 50k Dark Angels at the end of the Heresy, so there should be at least twice that by 40k.

Then the battle of Caliban happened I presume. That should have put quite the dent into their numbers.

50K is the result of the battle.

 Wyzilla wrote:
50K is the result of the battle.

Yea, I don't understand why that figure or any above is so hard to accept. Just because there are 11 (?) known successor chapters doesn't mean that's all there is and that every other chapter must be a descendant of the Ultramarines.

Again, a third of all chapters are not Ultramarines successors and the Dark Angels have some of the purest geneseed there is, with no mutations. That combined with the fact that most of the legion made it through the Heresy intact would seem to suggest a much higher figure than only the listed chapters. Also, only 3 chapters from the Second Founding is pathetic.

Remember that while the Ultramarines pull up the 115k average, others like Salamanders, Raven Guard and Thousand Sons pull it down.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
I said that there were at least 50k Dark Angels at the end of the Heresy, so there should be at least twice that by 40k.

Then the battle of Caliban happened I presume. That should have put quite the dent into their numbers.

Not really. Caliban was essentially one teleport assault followed by exterminatus.

Okay, well I can see that happening. There were like 400.000 Space Marines left after the HH and the DA was not that badly hit.

I think all the legions were crippled to different degrees. It wouldn't shock me to find out that the legions were all at a 1/10 of what they were before hand. It took many years for some legions to rebuild and depending on which fluff you follow, there are still some legions that haven't fully recovered.

Of course. Just the Ultramarines were relatively lightly damaged (despite Calth and I don't think causalities meant 100.000 of their number were killed there, plus they were quite efficient in procuring new members) and comprised like 60% of the chapters.

I must admit some skepticism in that the Dark Angels comprised of so many Space Marines as they are not that used, but it seems likely they dropped off the ones they didn't trust, nor did they tell them of their secret shame and how secretive they are in the end has served them really badly when it comes to the High Lords and the Inquisition as that has been well established in canon.

 Orblivion wrote:

Dorn was against it initially but changed his mind, plus he's dead.
Vulkan, Corax, Khan, and obviously Guilliman were for it.
Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus are dead.
That only leaves the Lion and Russ who were against it.

The Lion was already lost before the breakdown of the legions into chapters. Caliban had already been destroyed. The remaining Dark Angels were the first to sign up for it because they didn't want the truth about Caliban's destruction getting out and wanted to appear to be just the most loyal of loyal people.

Anyway, my guess as to how it'd go down:

Highlords panic. After all it's been like 6,000 years since any primarch roamed the galaxy. I imagine they'd view him as a fossil of a bygone age and a threat to their power simply by existing. There's probably at least one highlord who's in on the Dark Angels secrets however (considering how often they are tapped in secret to form a new chapter, etc.) so the internal power struggle of the courts would be something crazy to witness.

His first actions would be to unify the Unforgiven which, out of all the remnants of the legions would be easiest to do as they already basically still function like a legion. All their leaders keep on contact and know about the true secrets of their chapter after all, and there's been times in the past where chapter and company masters were temporarily filled by members of the other successor chapters until a new leader was chosen. That's straight from the codex. Honestly, as some of the remnants of the fight on Caliban are still popping up into real space without realizing any time at all has taken place, I bet half of the "chaos" ones would return to the fold, further straining the situation on Terra.

What he does from there is just a matter of where GW would want to take it. Does he search for his missing brothers? Does he seek a way to heal Guilliman, chase into the Webways after Corvus Corax and Jhagati Khan, hunt down for proof of what happened to Rogal Dorn, or maybe assist the Salamanders in recovering Vulkan's lost masterworks? Maybe after unifying his legion, he'd set out to eliminate the Tyranid threat as it's the most pressing state of doom facing the Imperium of Mankind. Maybe the Highlords flip out and declare war, claiming his return is a Chaos trick. What role does Cypher play in all this?

Lots of questions. All I know is there's a zillion awesome directions to take it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Remember that while the Ultramarines pull up the 115k average, others like Salamanders, Raven Guard and Thousand Sons pull it down.

The Thousand Sons are the exception rather than the rule. Even smaller legions like the Raven Guard had 80,000 marines, and that was a direct result of the heavy casualties sustained at the Battle of Gate Forty-Two:

"The effects of the battle were far-reaching for the Raven Guard. Its numbers were sorely depleted after the battle, and the Legion numbered only 80,000 Marines after the battle. Corax removed his forces from Horus' command, bitterly swearing to never serve alongside the Warmaster again." (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_Gate_Forty-Two).

There's also this from the Index Astartes Vol 1, page 20 from The Lion and the Wolf entry:
"Only Horus and Lion El'Jonson could claim more victories than Russ and this was a constant frustration to him."

They would need decent numbers to achieve that many victories so it seems to me that any number from 100k-150k for the legion seems reasonable (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion#Number_of_Legionaries). That's still less than or equal to the number of Ultramarines, Sons of Horus, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and Night Lords.

They were also on the winning side of the Thramas Crusade, where the Night Lords lost a quarter of their fleet (which would suggest that the Dark Angels lost less).

Even with 25% casualties in the Thramas Crusade (unlikely) and 50% casualties at Caliban (which is extremely unlikely, see rest of the thread), using the lower figure of 100k would leave you with 37,500 at the time of the Second Founding.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Lots of questions. All I know is there's a zillion awesome directions to take it.

Yea, that's pretty much my opinion as well. I'd prefer if not too many Primarchs return since that would lessen the impact.

What if Matt Ward were Guilliman in disguise?

 Pyeatt wrote:
What if Matt Ward were Guilliman in disguise?

Actually the char I closest come to be Matt Ward is Thiel. Guilliman seems like a good enough guy and I found it hilarious that he thinks of himself as handsome in the works of Dan Abnett.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
50K is the result of the battle.

Yea, I don't understand why that figure or any above is so hard to accept. Just because there are 11 (?) known successor chapters doesn't mean that's all there is and that every other chapter must be a descendant of the Ultramarines.

Again, a third of all chapters are not Ultramarines successors and the Dark Angels have some of the purest geneseed there is, with no mutations. That combined with the fact that most of the legion made it through the Heresy intact would seem to suggest a much higher figure than only the listed chapters. Also, only 3 chapters from the Second Founding is pathetic.

You're quite right. I did the crunch on the amount of Chapters by the end of the 3rd Founding (thus giving a guide for the breakdown of later percentages), and the UMs only accounted for ~30%. This means the Foundings would've been far larger than just the named Chapters.

Though Legion differs on the gene-seed. The Cabal tells Grammaticus specifically that the DA's gene-seed isn't pure enough (for the Cabal's purposes) for them due to the speed at which replacements were required to keep them up to strength during the Great Crusade.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
50K is the result of the battle.

Yea, I don't understand why that figure or any above is so hard to accept. Just because there are 11 (?) known successor chapters doesn't mean that's all there is and that every other chapter must be a descendant of the Ultramarines.

Again, a third of all chapters are not Ultramarines successors and the Dark Angels have some of the purest geneseed there is, with no mutations. That combined with the fact that most of the legion made it through the Heresy intact would seem to suggest a much higher figure than only the listed chapters. Also, only 3 chapters from the Second Founding is pathetic.

You're quite right. I did the crunch on the amount of Chapters by the end of the 3rd Founding (thus giving a guide for the breakdown of later percentages), and the UMs only accounted for ~30%. This means the Foundings would've been far larger than just the named Chapters.

Though Legion differs on the gene-seed. The Cabal tells Grammaticus specifically that the DA's gene-seed isn't pure enough (for the Cabal's purposes) for them due to the speed at which replacements were required to keep them up to strength during the Great Crusade.

It might not be a contradiction depending on the context. If the only legion with pure enough gene-seed for their purposes was the Alpha Legion, then that would mean their gene-seed was even purer than that of the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines, not that the Dark Angels gene-seed isn't pure.

The Alpha Legion was also the newest legion at the time (and rather small) so it wasn't subjected to the increased recruitment rates the other legions were going through.

I also found this thread discussing gene-seed purity. It also has a chart where the Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Imperial Fists are shown to have the same rates of mutation (interpretations in that thread).
Legions/Primarchs ranked by purity of gene-seed
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/578940.page

Whatever the case, the numbers given for each of the Foundings are too low to be the sum total of chapters founded. Even the Ultramarines only had 15 successor chapters. Surely they had more than 16,000 marines left at the end of the Heresy, just as the Dark Angels had more than 4000 left?

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
50K is the result of the battle.

Yea, I don't understand why that figure or any above is so hard to accept. Just because there are 11 (?) known successor chapters doesn't mean that's all there is and that every other chapter must be a descendant of the Ultramarines.

Again, a third of all chapters are not Ultramarines successors and the Dark Angels have some of the purest geneseed there is, with no mutations. That combined with the fact that most of the legion made it through the Heresy intact would seem to suggest a much higher figure than only the listed chapters. Also, only 3 chapters from the Second Founding is pathetic.

You're quite right. I did the crunch on the amount of Chapters by the end of the 3rd Founding (thus giving a guide for the breakdown of later percentages), and the UMs only accounted for ~30%. This means the Foundings would've been far larger than just the named Chapters.

Though Legion differs on the gene-seed. The Cabal tells Grammaticus specifically that the DA's gene-seed isn't pure enough (for the Cabal's purposes) for them due to the speed at which replacements were required to keep them up to strength during the Great Crusade.

It might not be a contradiction depending on the context. If the only legion with pure enough gene-seed for their purposes was the Alpha Legion, then that would mean their gene-seed was even purer than that of the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines, not that the Dark Angels gene-seed isn't pure.

The Alpha Legion was also the newest legion at the time (and rather small) so it wasn't subjected to the increased recruitment rates the other legions were going through.

I also found this thread discussing gene-seed purity. It also has a chart where the Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Imperial Fists are shown to have the same rates of mutation (interpretations in that thread).
Legions/Primarchs ranked by purity of gene-seed
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/578940.page

Whatever the case, the numbers given for each of the Foundings are too low to be the sum total of chapters founded. Even the Ultramarines only had 15 successor chapters. Surely they had more than 16,000 marines left at the end of the Heresy, just as the Dark Angels had more than 4000 left?

It seems to me that the original Chapters each had 5k-10k Space Marines (a much more logical number for such a fighting force), but the High Lords castrated them even further by cutting them down to 1k Marines to a Chapter and modifying the Codex so that (eventually) nobody would know the difference. Just my interpretation.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

It might not be a contradiction depending on the context. If the only legion with pure enough gene-seed for their purposes was the Alpha Legion, then that would mean their gene-seed was even purer than that of the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines, not that the Dark Angels gene-seed isn't pure.

The Alpha Legion was also the newest legion at the time (and rather small) so it wasn't subjected to the increased recruitment rates the other legions were going through.

I also found this thread discussing gene-seed purity. It also has a chart where the Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Imperial Fists are shown to have the same rates of mutation (interpretations in that thread).
Legions/Primarchs ranked by purity of gene-seed
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/578940.page

Whatever the case, the numbers given for each of the Foundings are too low to be the sum total of chapters founded. Even the Ultramarines only had 15 successor chapters. Surely they had more than 16,000 marines left at the end of the Heresy, just as the Dark Angels had more than 4000 left?

Oh, I agree! I was just fanboying a bit, I'm just saying prior to the Heresy, the Alpha Legion's gene-seed was the purest and least mutated. That doesn't mean it still is, or that it mutates slower, just that it wasn't subject to the same stress as the other Legions, though their estimated Legion strength does put them at 180,000 at the beginning of the Heresy.

Though it's pretty obvious that the lists we have of Chapters isn't complete; even the missing Legions are meant as blanks for the players themselves to fill out with their own Chapters and Legions. However, from a practical viewpoint, mentioning a somewhat even number of Successor Chapters from each Legion/Chapter, as it allows the player more room to play around.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Oh, I agree! I was just fanboying a bit, I'm just saying prior to the Heresy, the Alpha Legion's gene-seed was the purest and least mutated. That doesn't mean it still is, or that it mutates slower, just that it wasn't subject to the same stress as the other Legions, though their estimated Legion strength does put them at 180,000 at the beginning of the Heresy.

Though it's pretty obvious that the lists we have of Chapters isn't complete; even the missing Legions are meant as blanks for the players themselves to fill out with their own Chapters and Legions. However, from a practical viewpoint, mentioning a somewhat even number of Successor Chapters from each Legion/Chapter, as it allows the player more room to play around.

Yea, I was just pointing out how the Dark Angels could have some of the purest gene-seed around while still not being pure enough in that context. I didn't know that about the Alpha Legion, very interesting. They're my favorite among the traitors but I haven't gotten around to reading Legion.

And yea, exactly, the listed chapters are there to provide some examples and to set the general tone of how the successor chapters might be or how they can differ from the parent chapter (for example, Black Templars are quite different from the Imperial Fists even though they are a Second Founding chapter).

The reason I even bring up the Foundings is because people in the thread were using the listed chapters as proof that there are only ~12k DAs around (when the listed chapters aren't enough to support the 2/3rds of all chapters are Ultramarines either).

Honestly, I didn't even seriously think about the number of Unforgiven before this thread. I was like, huh 'legion building,' looked at the listed chapters, thought "that's a lot!," then moved on. It's only when I read this thread and started thinking about the actual figures that the 12k stopped making sense.

 Inkubas wrote:
I think all the legions were crippled to different degrees. It wouldn't shock me to find out that the legions were all at a 1/10 of what they were before hand. It took many years for some legions to rebuild and depending on which fluff you follow, there are still some legions that haven't fully recovered.

If you use the listed chapters from the Second Founding then ALL parent chapters are at less than 1/10 of what they were beforehand. There's nothing in the fluff to support casualties of this magnitude for all the legions.

 dusara217 wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Whatever the case, the numbers given for each of the Foundings are too low to be the sum total of chapters founded. Even the Ultramarines only had 15 successor chapters. Surely they had more than 16,000 marines left at the end of the Heresy, just as the Dark Angels had more than 4000 left?

It seems to me that the original Chapters each had 5k-10k Space Marines (a much more logical number for such a fighting force), but the High Lords castrated them even further by cutting them down to 1k Marines to a Chapter and modifying the Codex so that (eventually) nobody would know the difference. Just my interpretation.

10k would be a more reasonable number, even current fluff-wise. But I'm not sure the Astartes would submit to further breaking down the strength of the chapters if the Primarchs weren't around to back it.

They would likely submit to the High Lords. But Guilliman early on submitted the chapters into pieces of 1.000, Me for my part think he first made them into 10.000 at first but that force could easily conquer a vast tract of planets so he diminished the force further as the Ultras according to the first sources were split 23 times and were about 250.000 strong according to Dan Abnett.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
They would likely submit to the High Lords. But Guilliman early on submitted the chapters into pieces of 1.000, Me for my part think he first made them into 10.000 at first but that force could easily conquer a vast tract of planets so he diminished the force further as the Ultras according to the first sources were split 23 times and were about 250.000 strong according to Dan Abnett.

250k BEFORE casualties sustained against the Word Bearers, the Alpha Legion, and other casualties sustained during the Great Scouring.

I find it odd that a 250k figure for the Ultramarines at the time of the Second Founding is so easy to accept (when the events of the Horus Heresy make this impossible) yet a more substantial figure of more than 4k Dark Angels is met with such skepticism.

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the fluff to suggest that the size of a chapter was further broken down. It might make sense but it would only be headcanon.

It's also worth noting that the 250k figure is from an interview and not directly from anything published by GW. So while it's possible, it's not really set in stone. Just as how there aren't only 12k Unforgiven because the number of listed chapters makes it so.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
They would likely submit to the High Lords. But Guilliman early on submitted the chapters into pieces of 1.000, Me for my part think he first made them into 10.000 at first but that force could easily conquer a vast tract of planets so he diminished the force further as the Ultras according to the first sources were split 23 times and were about 250.000 strong according to Dan Abnett.

250k BEFORE casualties sustained against the Word Bearers, the Alpha Legion, and other casualties sustained during the Great Scouring.

I find it odd that a 250k figure for the Ultramarines at the time of the Second Founding is so easy to accept (when the events of the Horus Heresy make this impossible) yet a more substantial figure of more than 4k Dark Angels is met with such skepticism.

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the fluff to suggest that the size of a chapter was further broken down. It might make sense but it would only be headcanon.

It's also worth noting that the 250k figure is from an interview and not directly from anything published by GW. So while it's possible, it's not really set in stone. Just as how there aren't only 12k Unforgiven because the number of listed chapters makes it so.

Its easy to accept because of the respect Dan Abnett commands as the word of God. Any other author and it would be more doubtful.

And yeah its actually just a popular fan-theory, nothing else.

Plus I think the Ultras was in a good position to replace their losses, and they managed to put a huge dent into the World Eaters with very few losses themselves. So they had very good strategy and tactics. Plus the World Eaters are notoriously bad there.

The thing with the Unforgiven is that they are so damn secretive. I think I read that somewhere, and neither the Inq nor the High Lords trust them in this regard which diminishes their return. I thought that the Imperial Fists were the second most numerous chapter when it came to having successors.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Its easy to accept because of the respect Dan Abnett commands as the word of God. Any other author and it would be more doubtful.

And yeah its actually just a popular fan-theory, nothing else.

Plus I think the Ultras was in a good position to replace their losses, and they managed to put a huge dent into the World Eaters with very few losses themselves. So they had very good strategy and tactics. Plus the World Eaters are notoriously bad there.

His works also have CSMs dying like flies to Guardsmen. Whatever the case, what he mentions in passing is not the same as having been written down in... anywhere.

I haven't read the Ultramarines novels in the HH series but I'm pretty sure they take heavy casualties. In Macragge's Honour, their flagship takes 85% casualties before the final engagement.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_Calth

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The thing with the Unforgiven is that they are so damn secretive. I think I read that somewhere, and neither the Inq nor the High Lords trust them in this regard which diminishes their return. I thought that the Imperial Fists were the second most numerous chapter when it came to having successors.

Have you been keeping up with the thread? Already been addressed multiple times, even on this same page. If you disagree then address the arguments otherwise the thread will just go in circles.

And the Imperial Fists having the second most successors (whether backed up by fluff or not) doesn't really have anything to do with Dark Angels numbers. Again, a 50k figure would still only be 0.05% of all chapters.

The Ultarmarines successors are 2/3rds of all chapters, not 99%.

The DA numbers from the Second Founding alone would be enough for chapters in the double digits. Unless the High Lords got so distrustful they stopped using their geneseed completely AND decided to kill off all those extra DA running around...

Abnett is not without his faults. But in general he commands loads of respect from the fans, and I prefer going for sources rather than just making my own assumptions.

And I have never said that the Ultras are 99% of the Space Marines. Actually I thought the number were closer to 60% and I mixed in the Imp Fists because if the DA was that numerous the IF would be less numerous. Thats the relevance of the Imperial Fists in this matter.

As for the Unforgiven, well the High Lords just didn't replace their chapters in my mind due to not trusting them rather than killing them outright. If memory serves Azrael even had to petition them to make a successor-chapter of the DA.

And you seem damn argumentative over mere semantics.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Abnett is not without his faults. But in general he commands loads of respect from the fans, and I prefer going for sources rather than just making my own assumptions.

Not making your own assumptions by blatantly ignoring Ultramarine casualties? And by assuming they can just replace their casualties while other chapters like the DA can't? (I'm referring to the point you were making about casualties sustained on Caliban).

 Beaviz81 wrote:
And I have never said that the Ultras are 99% of the Space Marines. Actually I thought the number were closer to 60% and I mixed in the Imp Fists because if the DA was that numerous the IF would be less numerous. Thats the relevance of the Imperial Fists in this matter.

My point being that 1/3 out of a 1000 leaves a lot of space to fill. A ~50k or even 100k figure (which was so easily dismissed) is a drop in the bucket.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
As for the Unforgiven, well the High Lords just didn't replace their chapters in my mind due to not trusting them rather than killing them outright. If memory serves Azrael even had to petition them to make a successor-chapter of the DA.

And you seem damn argumentative over mere semantics.

You would have to kill the tens of thousands of Dark Angels still alive at the end of the Heresy to get a 12k current DA figure (with the original DAs chapter and only 3 Second Founding chapters).

If I seem argumentative then it's because I'm trying to get a simple point across, which somehow seems impossible. Suspicion from the inquisition is also addressed somewhat, scroll up or go back a page.

Causality doesn't always mean KIA. It just as often mean MIA, WIA or POW (just read a damn battle-report from a real battle), plus if anyone can survive their ship blowing up it should be a Space Marine. And there were 400 chapters jogging around when the Grey Knights were made. The majority of those were of Ultramarine-stock.

As said I think the High Lords and Inq let the Unforgiven chapters die out, I must admit I don't know that much about the Unforgiven as the Imperial Fists and the Space Wolves are my area. Obviously there were more chapters of them to begin with, but you must remember GW is anything but concistant when it comes to fluff and just as often contradicts themselves with undeclared author-wars and everything else.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

It seems to me that the original Chapters each had 5k-10k Space Marines (a much more logical number for such a fighting force), but the High Lords castrated them even further by cutting them down to 1k Marines to a Chapter and modifying the Codex so that (eventually) nobody would know the difference. Just my interpretation.

10k would be a more reasonable number, even current fluff-wise. But I'm not sure the Astartes would submit to further breaking down the strength of the chapters if the Primarchs weren't around to back it.

I don't know, shame goes a long way to making them submit.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Causality doesn't always mean KIA. It just as often mean MIA, WIA or POW (just read a damn battle-report from a real battle), plus if anyone can survive their ship blowing up it should be a Space Marine. And there were 400 chapters jogging around when the Grey Knights were made. The majority of those were of Ultramarine-stock.

As said I think the High Lords and Inq let the Unforgiven chapters die out, I must admit I don't know that much about the Unforgiven as the Imperial Fists and the Space Wolves are my area. Obviously there were more chapters of them to begin with, but you must remember GW is anything but concistant when it comes to fluff and just as often contradicts themselves with undeclared author-wars and everything else.

True, the fluff isn't very consistent and there are contradictions and retcons all over. The current inflated legion numbers are also more recent and contradict a lot of the established fluff.

That said, 400 chapters with a Ultramarine majority still wouldn't make a figure of ~50k DA improbable. The Grey Knights are a Second Founding chapter - that's only 7 years after the Heresy. At this time most loyalist chapters were badly mauled from the Dropsite Massacre (e.g. Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands) as well as from the Siege of Terra (Blood Angels, White Scars, Imperial Fists). That means the Ultramarines and Dark Angels were two of the more intact legions at the time, which would inflate their numbers for the Second Founding. The losses they sustained during the Heresy don't really allow for anything much lower than that figure.

Also, at the time the High Lords had no reason to distrust them so subsequent distrust would have no effect on numbers from the Second Founding.

Another thing to keep in mind is that some of the original legions, like the Space Wolves and Salamanders , barely have any successor chapters, which means the one third of remaining chapters might not be spread as thinly as one might think.

(This also presents some fluff problems. If the Space Wolves barely have any successors, then where did all the Space Wolves who survived the Heresy go?)

Also casualties for the Ultramarines are the same as for everyone else. If Astartes are fighting each other and casualties for the other legions result result in serious losses (dead Astartes and reduced numbers) then casualties for the Ultramarines are the same. They had the largest legion which is why they still had a lot left but that doesn't mean they didn't sustain losses that would put them at less than full strength. Granted, they might have rebuilt in the years after the Heresy but why would they be the only legion to do so?

1.) All of the Legions tried to rebuild after the Heresy, Ultramarines just had the bureaucracy in place for rapid replacement of casualties.
2.) The Space Wolves were divided into 2 Chapters of ~20k Marines. One of the Chapters (the Wolf Brothers) was unable to control its geneseed and suffered from rapid mutation. After their Chapter basically fell apart due to the mutation, the survivors turned to Chaos and the Space Wolves were forced to put them down. The Space Wolves occasionally hear rumors about surviving Wolf Brothers and are honor-bound to hunt them down (similar to the Unforgiven, except the Space Wolves don't let it rule their entire existence). After that loss of something like 30k Marines (SW and WB losses), the Space Wolves basically slowly decreased in size until they leveled out at a size that they were able to maintain (1500-2500 Marines, though I think it's ~2k)

This is also a large part of the reason why I think that the 2nd Founding created Chapters of ~5k-10k Marines, and then they got broken down. It is possible that the Codex just got changed to be 1k Marines to a Chapter, and with each founding, the Founding Chapter would lose 1k Marines to form a new Chapter until they were forced to send training cadres and a barebones leadership structure.

 dusara217 wrote:
This is also a large part of the reason why I think that the 2nd Founding created Chapters of ~5k-10k Marines, and then they got broken down. It is possible that the Codex just got changed to be 1k Marines to a Chapter, and with each founding, the Founding Chapter would lose 1k Marines to form a new Chapter until they were forced to send training cadres and a barebones leadership structure.

Hmm, 10k a chapter would actually make a lot of sense with the given legion numbers.

I can see how the Ultramarines had a better recruitment system in place given that Caliban blew up. That would also explain how the Blood Angels have more successor chapters from that founding.

It's not stated in the fluff but it really does make a lot of sense. It would fix all the fluff contradictions, including the 23 Second Found chapters for the Ultramarines and only 3 given DA chapters. Think I'll adopt it for my head canon as well