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dominuschao wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Honestly the only half-decent pieces of stratagy I've seen here are "tarpit it" and "get the spider first"

Getting the spider is not that easy. and not every faction has decent tarpit units.
What are they supposed to do?

The wraiths WILL land a turn 2 assault. they WILL wipe out anything they touch, and they WILL survive to do the same on turn 3, and 4.


I'm struggling to try figure out what were GW thinking there, and seriously hoping there is a day 1 faq about them like missile drones had....

Wraiths have never wiped out anything they touch man.

Let's be real here, without 4 anni barges and 3 ccb's (the former versions) a decurion wraithwing isn't worth the trouble. I've tried to make lists to abuse double harvest, they have no ranged presence. Durable? Ya but they'd better be because they are the only targets. Specifically the spyder but the wraiths are game too if packing s10 or D. The spyder can also be interdicted by complete throw away units very easily. Then what? Do the wraiths slow their roll to stay in range? They get shot either way.

The formation is amazing but it needs guns or all out assault. I just don't see an army getting enough of either trying to spam wraiths from decurion.

Ha yes i've said this multiple times in this thread and no one seems to listen.

The points value in the Wraith's is just silly. Doing the math vs. Grotesques (similar points value) the Wraiths mop the floor with them, all while being quicker and more durable. 5:1 wounds in combat. Wraith Guard are a decent counter option, but to make it work you need a lot of HQ support, so it's no longer an apples/apples comparison (though Wraith Gate is a solid and fun unit to run as TAC). I don't feel like I need to bring up how poorly terminators fair.

Tar pitting is realistically the best option. Bury them in a ton of fearless/stubborn models and kill everything else. Eldar/DE will have the option of out running them, but pretty much everyone else needs to have a sacrificial squad to offer up. Even then, if more than the minimum is invested in spyders, the scarabs can be buffed up to bail the wraiths out. Two of these formations running side by side is basically letting you run Wraith-Wing and Scarab-Farm out of the last dex, just more durable.

I really like how synergistic this combo is, I just hope the rest of the codices are getting this kind of innovation. More likely, this is a "cool idea" that didn't get play tested properly and is just hyper imbalanced.

 Dash2021 wrote:
The points value in the Wraith's is just silly. Doing the math vs. Grotesques (similar points value) the Wraiths mop the floor with them,

Really? Taking the flesh gauntlet's lethal dose into account, I see they're about even, the wraith maybe a little ahead. This is assuming the Grotesque has 4+ FNP, which is probable.

If the Grotesque gets the charge, if he is at the Furious Charge level of PFP, he comes out ahead.

I think, maybe the math is wrong.

I find it funny that people focus so much on the wraiths when to me the better formation is the flayed ones.

Here me out, you can take 1-10 with no tax and they will literally mulch anything in the game DH wraiths included after BEING assaulted lol.

I'd much rather take max tomb blades and a couple probably 2-3 20 man bricks of flayed ones. With infiltrate and DS they are also amazing for objectives, since they are incredibly inefficient targets to blast off with shooting, and will kill anything that charges them, all while having a footprint big enough to box out objectives.

6 wraiths w/ WC=258
20 Flayed ones=260

and for each unit of wraiths that's a 110 point tax that gets me 5 tomb blades with neb scopes and S vanes.

Hello one unstoppable force meet my immovable object.

For anyone else just use MSU. Wraith heavy lists lack guns, let them spend 2 turns chasing down that rhino only to see two combat squads emerge on opposite sides. It will take 3 assaults to kill that unit, if they are white scars like my army and fail to finish them to a man I'll hit and run and make you pay another turns focus on that last guy.

It's really not that hard to beat on the table if you put some thought into it.

Flayed ones get 4 attacks base yes? Two flayed claws for +1 attack? 5 att each on the charge?

 Byte wrote:
Flayed ones get 4 attacks base yes? Two flayed claws for +1 attack? 5 att each on the charge?[/quote

Yeah, with Shred and AP5. It's really overkill.

20 of them on the charge kill 59 Guardsmen,

Yep flayed ones are much better now with more attacks and 4+ RP. And shred whut! Still their main downfall is lack of fearless. Now how often it will be fatal is hard to quantify..probably not all that often. Definitely an interesting alternative and a great place for a tek and/or D Lord. Not as mobile or durable as wraiths but far more threatening in damage output and a much more useful footprint.

100 attacks hitting on 3s and rerolling wounds with no guardsmen armor save.

Overkill is good...

 Red Corsair wrote:
I find it funny that people focus so much on the wraiths when to me the better formation is the flayed ones.

Here me out, you can take 1-10 with no tax and they will literally mulch anything in the game DH wraiths included after BEING assaulted lol.

I'd much rather take max tomb blades and a couple probably 2-3 20 man bricks of flayed ones. With infiltrate and DS they are also amazing for objectives, since they are incredibly inefficient targets to blast off with shooting, and will kill anything that charges them, all while having a footprint big enough to box out objectives.

6 wraiths w/ WC=258
20 Flayed ones=260

and for each unit of wraiths that's a 110 point tax that gets me 5 tomb blades with neb scopes and S vanes.

Hello one unstoppable force meet my immovable object.

For anyone else just use MSU. Wraith heavy lists lack guns, let them spend 2 turns chasing down that rhino only to see two combat squads emerge on opposite sides. It will take 3 assaults to kill that unit, if they are white scars like my army and fail to finish them to a man I'll hit and run and make you pay another turns focus on that last guy.

It's really not that hard to beat on the table if you put some thought into it.

This^^^
I honestly don't care or fear 12 wraiths from 2 harvest detschments in a decorian detachment that costs almost the same amount with all the required units in that detachment.
Seriously they don't have enough attacks to go through a fearless greentide and they will eventually die and the tide rolls on.
~300 ws5 atks at str3 (+100atks and +1 str on charge) and 25-33 ws5 atks at str8-9 ap2 on toughness 4, 4+, 5++, 5+++ units that can move, run, charge the same turn w rerolls and an additional 103 HoW atks or snapshots if they are charged.

 Byte wrote:
100 attacks hitting on 3s and rerolling wounds with no guardsmen armor save.

Overkill is good...

How good are they with a destroyer lord in them? Can't the d.Lord still get a 2+? And the PE added to flayed ones I'm sure helps them out even more. Maybe wraiths are a red harring and Destroyer lord/flayed one is the new op....

Alcibiades wrote:

 Dash2021 wrote:
The points value in the Wraith's is just silly. Doing the math vs. Grotesques (similar points value) the Wraiths mop the floor with them,

Really? Taking the flesh gauntlet's lethal dose into account, I see they're about even, the wraith maybe a little ahead. This is assuming the Grotesque has 4+ FNP, which is probable.

If the Grotesque gets the charge, if he is at the Furious Charge level of PFP, he comes out ahead.

I think, maybe the math is wrong.

6 Wraiths vs. 7 Grotesques (~same points) the math varies dramatically depending on who you assume gets the charge. I give Wraiths the charge, because honestly there's no reason they wouldn't. Grotesques in a raider is a massive target that should be shot down first/second turn and stranded, not to mention the squad only numbers 5 inside a raider (max) which makes the outcome for them even worse. Also assume I5 on the wraiths (again, why wouldn't you).

Wraiths Charge:
24 attacks -> 12 hits -> 8 wounds (7.9 rounded) -> 4 (3.96) unsaved wounds. Rend and the one armor save would cancel out, assumed 4+ FnP on the Grotesques.

Grotesques:
30 Attacks -> 15 hits -> 8 wounds (7.5) -> 2.4 unsaved wounds -> 1.2 after 4+ FnP (or reanimation)

So On the charge the Wraiths kill 1.3 Grotesques, and the Grotesques kill .5 wraiths. Next round of combat, Wraiths do 3 (2.97) unsaved wounds and Grotesques do 1.

I did forget to give the Grotesques the extra combat weapon attack the first time I did the numbers, so that accounts for a little difference (4:.1.2 vs 5:1). However, I'm also being pretty generous assuming a 4+ FnP for the grotesques as you suggest, which I didn't previously. Most of the time it will be 5+, which cranks up the wounds to 5:1.2 first round, and kills an extra grotesque in the second round. For lethal dose to come into play, the 1 wound the grotesques get through every round has to be a lethal dose, and the wraiths still only lose a model 50% of the time then. Still not taking into account low LD of Grotesques, which is another drawback the Wraiths don't have.

If Grotesques get the charge they do fair better, no doubt. But If the Grotesques get the charge, the necron player is doing something very wrong. Also, if outside of the Canoptek Harvest the wounds do come out to be ~ even. These are pretty generous conditions for the grotesques though. Most of the time they'll be in a raider, accompanied by a Character, meaning units of 4 + whatever Char you put with them. One unsaved wound on a Char from the wraiths will double them out (whooray T3 characters), and the characters dmg output will be at best the same as the Grotesques.

Throw them a 5 TWC unit with a runepriest in bike casting biomancy and using some fancy relic, all equiped with power mauls and SS, or the mauls paired with bolt pistol (if you feel luky with biomancy and gaining endurance), thats 20 S7 attacks, or 25 if you choose the pistols.
You can always choose to put instead a wolfpriest for PE and fearless and tied the unit (dont forget fnp of the priest) or a wolf lord using the cahmpion of fenris relics, wearing the morkais claws.
As wraith have a inv save you need numbers of attacks or a rescilence unit to tied them in cc as fast as you can, if you can kill a squad of terminator with weight of fire, you can kill this things; I know, termies are t4, but there are a lot of options in all the armies to have a lot of high strenght fire power, i think that even a squad of devastetors with hb can make severe damage to a wraith unit

Hmm... I'm thinking kick them to death with Helbrutes? I'm working on a multipurpose Murderpack (squadron of five). I'll take some damage from S6 Rending, but every wound that gets through 3++ will frag one, except for the one with no PF/TH.

Mutilators might be able to achieve MAD with Marks, too.

Oberron wrote:

 Byte wrote:
100 attacks hitting on 3s and rerolling wounds with no guardsmen armor save.

Overkill is good...

Maybe wraiths are a red harring and Destroyer lord/flayed one is the new op....

I think so, take 20 with a Dlord and wait for the drop pods. Feeeed my darlings...

Excellent line backers with a passive aggressive deployment tactic, why push? Smother...

People are going on about wraiths, but as far as I can tell the most improved units in the codex are Flayed Ones and Triarch Praetorians, both of which have turned into murder machines. Praetorians as part of the Judicator formation especially, though that shares the same synapse-like issues as Canoptek Harvest. (I really like this by the way. It seems that GW has gone the route of making single units the lynchpins in the formations, which makes sense because they are machines being controlled from a central core. I like this a lot actually.)

Anyway for reasons stated above I don't think that Wraiths will normally be used in that specific formation and so their (sometime) 4+ RP will not be applicable.

Alcibiades wrote:

Anyway for reasons stated above I don't think that Wraiths will normally be used in that specific formation and so their (sometime) 4+ RP will not be applicable.

This formation is too costly:
Spyder, 5 Wraiths w/ whip coils, 3 Scarabs
are 325 pts.
Acceptible in an apoc game, but hardly at the (competitive) 1850 pt level.

Alcibiades wrote:
People are going on about wraiths, but as far as I can tell the most improved units in the codex are Flayed Ones and Triarch Praetorians, both of which have turned into murder machines. Praetorians as part of the Judicator formation especially, though that shares the same synapse-like issues as Canoptek Harvest. (I really like this by the way. It seems that GW has gone the route of making single units the lynchpins in the formations, which makes sense because they are machines being controlled from a central core. I like this a lot actually.)

Anyway for reasons stated above I don't think that Wraiths will normally be used in that specific formation and so their (sometime) 4+ RP will not be applicable.

Agreed. I think the Flayed Ones are the sleeper cell.

hah, I jjust realized that in the formation,, giving a full squad Scarabs Shred will do serious damage to even things like wraithknights.

Alcibiades wrote:
hah, I jjust realized that in the formation,, giving a full squad Scarabs Shred will do serious damage to even things like wraithknights.

S3 still can't hurt T8.

 Byte wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
People are going on about wraiths, but as far as I can tell the most improved units in the codex are Flayed Ones and Triarch Praetorians, both of which have turned into murder machines. Praetorians as part of the Judicator formation especially, though that shares the same synapse-like issues as Canoptek Harvest. (I really like this by the way. It seems that GW has gone the route of making single units the lynchpins in the formations, which makes sense because they are machines being controlled from a central core. I like this a lot actually.)

Anyway for reasons stated above I don't think that Wraiths will normally be used in that specific formation and so their (sometime) 4+ RP will not be applicable.

Agreed. I think the Flayed Ones are the sleeper cell.

Indeed, a finecast sleeper cell.
Five men for 35 Euro.

They've got new entrophic strikes that always wound/glance on a 6, no?

PanzerLeader wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
hah, I jjust realized that in the formation,, giving a full squad Scarabs Shred will do serious damage to even things like wraithknights.

S3 still can't hurt T8.

Entropic Strikes now allows them to wound anything on a 6, even if their strength is too low.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Indeed, a finecast sleeper cell.
Five men for 35 Euro.

I guess I'm numb to that because I have 30 metal ones. Damn, that does suck...

 Byte wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
People are going on about wraiths, but as far as I can tell the most improved units in the codex are Flayed Ones and Triarch Praetorians, both of which have turned into murder machines. Praetorians as part of the Judicator formation especially, though that shares the same synapse-like issues as Canoptek Harvest. (I really like this by the way. It seems that GW has gone the route of making single units the lynchpins in the formations, which makes sense because they are machines being controlled from a central core. I like this a lot actually.)

Anyway for reasons stated above I don't think that Wraiths will normally be used in that specific formation and so their (sometime) 4+ RP will not be applicable.

Agreed. I think the Flayed Ones are the sleeper cell.

The main difference between flayed ones and wraiths comes in speed and durability. that's why nobody complains about flayed.
Both will murderize anything they can reach, but wraiths are fast moving, and feature a T5 3++ 4+++ profile-flayed? are slower, and far more easy to kill with a weak armor and no invuls, and they cannot chase you as quickly around if you try to outmaneuver them.
Flayed WILL hit like a truck, but at least you got a half-decent chance to kill them before they reach you. wraiths? not so much.

As for pretorians, I don't know what their formation does, but they still have the speed issue, even if they are harder to kill than the flayed.

Screw the wraiths... the necron bikes are going to be silly.

 Byte wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Indeed, a finecast sleeper cell.
Five men for 35 Euro.

I guess I'm numb to that because I have 30 metal ones. Damn, that does suck...

Then you are at the lucky side.

How do Necrons deal with Wraiths effectively?

Hard mode: without using Wraiths themselves.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
How do Necrons deal with Wraiths effectively?

Hard mode: without using Wraiths themselves.

Pray their flayed ones get into combat with the opposing wraiths? if that happens, the flayed ones are pretty worthwhile.

Deshkar wrote:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
How do Necrons deal with Wraiths effectively?

Hard mode: without using Wraiths themselves.

Pray their flayed ones get into combat with the opposing wraiths? if that happens, the flayed ones are pretty worthwhile.

Shoot the assaulters and combat (in cc) the shooters.

 Byte wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
People are going on about wraiths, but as far as I can tell the most improved units in the codex are Flayed Ones and Triarch Praetorians, both of which have turned into murder machines. Praetorians as part of the Judicator formation especially, though that shares the same synapse-like issues as Canoptek Harvest. (I really like this by the way. It seems that GW has gone the route of making single units the lynchpins in the formations, which makes sense because they are machines being controlled from a central core. I like this a lot actually.)

Anyway for reasons stated above I don't think that Wraiths will normally be used in that specific formation and so their (sometime) 4+ RP will not be applicable.

Agreed. I think the Flayed Ones are the sleeper cell.

I guess that makes Grotesques the same thing, a unit of 7 will cost the Canadian 210$....



I guess my best choice as a Dark Eldar, and Tau player would be:


Dark Eldar: Loads of poison as normal, the Covens talos/cronos/haemy formation... t7/3+/4+++ no invuln but it should be able to handle a few of them without doing the math hammer, but would likely get trashed in the process.

Tau, much easier:


Unbound: unit of 12 cadre fireblades = 158 S5 shots at BS5 from 30" away, only getting better in rapid fire range. That's 720 pts, then fitting in as many HYMP broadsides as I can for a gun line behind them, and depending on the points the FW Y'varha or Rvarna. Both those new riptides will put a hammering out and help that list overall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes, FireBlades + 1 shot for hanging out together do stack.

Edit: I also have 100 kroot laying around. I wonder how they would far with sniper rounds. That's around 810 points I believe.