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 BoomWolf wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
isn't there an FOC in the latest campaign that allows units to re-roll 1's on reanimation rolls? cause if so that would be nasty with Wraiths.


well, time to hope that the necron players are sportsmen and don't bring too many.

Luckly, if you are in that FOC-you are not in the decurion or even the small formation-so no RP wraiths.

Ah, didn't catch that. So only everything else is annoying! great =D

Best strategy is the strongest strategy in 7th anyway. MSU, let those 258pt units kill 35-70pt units one at a time starting turn 2 soonest. Without obsec you will just beet them on objectives, why waste energy on the wraiths. Alternatively most armies have hard counters which I list earlier that can at least tarpit them all game. Wraiths are a strong unit but they are far from OP, very far.

 Sasori wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
FYI, if you run the formation on its own the RP roll is only a 5+. To get the 4+ you have to be part of a Decurion Detachment to gain its command benefit. Which makes spamming much harder after you pay the RL tax.

If by "Tax" you mean 154 points... which is the extra immortal and tomb blade units combined cost, after accounting for requred HQ and 2 troops....

The minimum cost of a RL with 0 upgrades is 479 points. Decently kitted with transports it'll weigh in at 800-900 points. Even if you wanted max Canoptek Harvests, at 230 points each you can get a total of 5 minimum sized formations into an 1850 list if you buy no upgrades on your RL. That'll give you 15 wraiths, 15 scarabs, 5 spiders, 1 overlord, 20 warriors, 5 immortals and 3 tomb blades with ~220 points to go. It's just not a very good army at that point. You lose all the things that made the old wraithwing great, like ranged threats from ABs and Night Scythes plus more wraiths.

You are absolutely correct on all your points there.

However, my point was you are not paying much of a tax for the Reclmamation legion, as you are required to have a HQ and 2 troops for any CAD. So you are only paying a real tax of 154 points.

I don't think massed Wraiths will be the way to go with the Decurion myself. I feel you want to maximize the the use of the other formations.

If you want to spam pure Wraiths, you are better off taking the CAD route, since you will be able to cut more points by loosing the Spyder and Scarabs.

A 154 point real tax for 8 not so hot models that constitute 8.3% of your points at 1850, making it a significant investment---especially when you start discussing the opportunity cost of paying the RL tax. In a CAD, those 154 points represent either a Night Scythe or a Ghost Ark for one of your Troop choices or represent an annihilation barge. Depending on your local meta and the average points you play at, those 154 points can represent an even bigger thorn in your side. Imagine playing mostly 1500 point games and having to spend 10+% of your points on 5 immortals and 3 tomb blades.

Is everyone here ignoring the fact that the unit comes with it's own nifty tarpit, by turn 2 you should have 4 to 5 Scarab Bases, Scarabs are fearless and will have the 4+ save from RP, and have a 6+ armour.

That's not a useless unit.

Hollismason wrote:
Is everyone here ignoring the fact that the unit comes with it's own nifty tarpit, by turn 2 you should have 4 to 5 Scarab Bases, Scarabs are fearless and will have the 4+ save from RP, and have a 6+ armour.

That's not a useless unit.

Not only that they are still excellent objective grabbers for being fast little buggers that can conga line to the spiders that can hide relatively well.

So from what I see;

Wraiths in CAD
In a standard CAD they only get their standard 3+/3++

Wraiths in CAD with formation
3+/3++
With a 5+ RP(FNP) when within 6" of the spyder, but only after the necron turn commences. Can someone clarify (my dex is in da post!), does the buff apply as long as they are within the 6" or does it apply at the start of the turn? IE I start within 6" gain RP, move and charge out of 6" do I continue to have RP?

Wraiths in decursion as formation
3+/3++
with a 5+ improved to a 4+ when within 6" of spyder but only after necron turn commences.

Assuming wraiths start on the deployment line, as well as the spyder, necron first turn, spyder moves 6" + runs 4" giving a 16"edge to the buff, wraiths move 12"+4" so turn 1 are at the edge of buff area. Turn 2, unless the wraiths lose the buff when leaving the area they will likely have it turn 2 if the spyder is advancing. However, this is assuming they do advance the spyder, which I dont think is certain. So if they hide the spyder you can be pretty sure they will start the wraiths in the buff area, but after turn 1, they will certainly be outside the area if playing aggressive. thus losing RP altogether along with the bonus. So now they are just 3+/3++.

What I gather from this is baiting seems like a solid tactic. Most gauss is 24" right, so in general necrons typically are a mid ranged army from my perspective, yes they do ranged, but not like they used to with wraithwing and the Dlords and Anni Barge. I would personally actually hang back I think, make the necron player decide, do they bring the wraiths forward along with the spyder and open the spyder to shooting? or do they bring wraiths forward alone? as once RP is gone, weight of fire is clearly a strong tactic. If they conga, then they are susceptible to a tarpit, I mean a conga will mean 1-2 will be well out of combat range, thus reducing potency by 1/3 atleast. I generally think you can make the wraiths move forward as you move around the edge of the board attempting to move counter to their moves.

Like Red said, its probably worth ignoring and tarpitting and then getting some mission VPs or moving on to the rest of the list.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
FYI, if you run the formation on its own the RP roll is only a 5+. To get the 4+ you have to be part of a Decurion Detachment to gain its command benefit. Which makes spamming much harder after you pay the RL tax.

If by "Tax" you mean 154 points... which is the extra immortal and tomb blade units combined cost, after accounting for requred HQ and 2 troops....

The minimum cost of a RL with 0 upgrades is 479 points. Decently kitted with transports it'll weigh in at 800-900 points. Even if you wanted max Canoptek Harvests, at 230 points each you can get a total of 5 minimum sized formations into an 1850 list if you buy no upgrades on your RL. That'll give you 15 wraiths, 15 scarabs, 5 spiders, 1 overlord, 20 warriors, 5 immortals and 3 tomb blades with ~220 points to go. It's just not a very good army at that point. You lose all the things that made the old wraithwing great, like ranged threats from ABs and Night Scythes plus more wraiths.

You are absolutely correct on all your points there.

However, my point was you are not paying much of a tax for the Reclmamation legion, as you are required to have a HQ and 2 troops for any CAD. So you are only paying a real tax of 154 points.

I don't think massed Wraiths will be the way to go with the Decurion myself. I feel you want to maximize the the use of the other formations.

If you want to spam pure Wraiths, you are better off taking the CAD route, since you will be able to cut more points by loosing the Spyder and Scarabs.

A 154 point real tax for 8 not so hot models that constitute 8.3% of your points at 1850, making it a significant investment---especially when you start discussing the opportunity cost of paying the RL tax. In a CAD, those 154 points represent either a Night Scythe or a Ghost Ark for one of your Troop choices or represent an annihilation barge. Depending on your local meta and the average points you play at, those 154 points can represent an even bigger thorn in your side. Imagine playing mostly 1500 point games and having to spend 10+% of your points on 5 immortals and 3 tomb blades.

Are they really that bad now though? Tomb Blades are actually pretty good now. They're cheaper, they're upgrades are cheaper, and they are a lot more durable in a Decurion.

Immortals are more durable, but there is not much going on there. In the Decurion, at least I feel like my troops are actually now contributing. Before, they were just a tax for getting Night Scythes and/or Ghost Arks

The 4+ Army Wide Bonus has paid Dividends for me, so far. I see it as worth it, if you are running a lot of Non-canoptek units.

As I said in my post before, if you are just going to spam 15 wraiths, some nightscythes and Abarges, then it's not worth it. I don't see this as being competitive anymore though, so more power to you.

Mathematically, the Decurion will pay for it's "Tax" in a game pretty easy, if you are running enough units that use RP.


By the way, the range for the Canoptek harvest bonus is 12' not six Solar.

Everyone is going nuts over the wraith formation but I think that CAD wraiths (with whips) backed by the destroyer formation is what you should watch out for.

I know this is a thread about the wraiths but your probably doing yourself a disservice to put the wraiths in a bubble. Spamming canoptek harvest? why? have you not looked at the rest of the codex. Lots of scary units. It sounds like this post started off of (accurate) rumors and people just got stuck on the durability.

How come when you see the issue as being that the unit is super durable your reaction is to figure out how to blow it up? Arnt you kinda playing to its strengths?

Wraiths have a lot of things going for them but its not like its easy to insert a GOOD cc unit into 40k. You have to be fast and you have to be durable. Wraiths are pretty fast and incredibly durable. I5 and S6 are nice (for zombie robots) but its not like they are murdering their way out of (many) combats. They just don't die (necrons) and kill in an average(ish) manner.

The flayed ones are more killy for 1/3 of the price. That other 2/3 is you paying for being able to get there.

There has been a resurgence of cc units/armies recently. Wraiths are just different in that the answer isn't to just turn them into a crater. I know the answer has always been pewpew the last few editions but theres got to be other tactics. MSU, tarpits, board control, area denial, other stuff..

My point (there was a point?) is that if your worried about blowing up a unit that is designed to not be blown up, your doing it wrong.

My answer to wraiths would be the same as to whatever other cheese-spam-broke list out there, maelstrom it out.

I think.

Cauthon wrote:
Everyone is going nuts over the wraith formation but I think that CAD wraiths (with whips) backed by the destroyer formation is what you should watch out for.

I know this is a thread about the wraiths but your probably doing yourself a disservice to put the wraiths in a bubble. Spamming canoptek harvest? why? have you not looked at the rest of the codex. Lots of scary units. It sounds like this post started off of (accurate) rumors and people just got stuck on the durability.

How come when you see the issue as being that the unit is super durable your reaction is to figure out how to blow it up? Arnt you kinda playing to its strengths?

Wraiths have a lot of things going for them but its not like its easy to insert a GOOD cc unit into 40k. You have to be fast and you have to be durable. Wraiths are pretty fast and incredibly durable. I5 and S6 are nice (for zombie robots) but its not like they are murdering their way out of (many) combats. They just don't die (necrons) and kill in an average(ish) manner.

The flayed ones are more killy for 1/3 of the price. That other 2/3 is you paying for being able to get there.

There has been a resurgence of cc units/armies recently. Wraiths are just different in that the answer isn't to just turn them into a crater. I know the answer has always been pewpew the last few editions but theres got to be other tactics. MSU, tarpits, board control, area denial, other stuff..

My point (there was a point?) is that if your worried about blowing up a unit that is designed to not be blown up, your doing it wrong.

My answer to wraiths would be the same as to whatever other cheese-spam-broke list out there, maelstrom it out.

I think.

You know what wraiths are useless at??? Helping against psykers/summoning/ FMC Spam. Some of the top armies can just ignore them and outmaneuver them. Eldar can move there serpents around them and just keep shooting them. There is a reason wraith spam kind of died off. It is because they are pretty easy to deal with these days. Even at T5 they just are not fast enough to reach some of the shooty units out there and they cant touch flyers... that is potentially 750pts of your army milling around the board with nothing to do.

Enlighten me what unit out there is too fast for beasts that liturally ignores any and all obstructions in its path?

WS are not faster than that. nor can they "sit back and shoot" as they really can't kill the wraiths anyway.
FMC are a non-issue, as the wariths will just camp objectives and the FMC will never, ever, EVER manage to get them off these.
Psykers? sure the wraiths can handle them. most psykers cant touch wraiths anyway, and any land-based psyker will find himself eaten once they arrive, MCs included.

Wraiths in CAD are all fun and games, wraiths in decurion are flying rodent gak crazy.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Enlighten me what unit out there is too fast for beasts that liturally ignores any and all obstructions in its path?

WS are not faster than that.

It's hard to take your point seriously after that.

WS move 12" + 18" with an optional further +6" for those that take star engines. All while also ignoring movement penalties. In what world is a 12" move faster then that? The only beast list in recent history that could catch them was the old beast pack, which did it by using 30+ models, making a massive footprint. 6 model beast units definitely will struggle to counter WS.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Enlighten me what unit out there is too fast for beasts that liturally ignores any and all obstructions in its path?

WS are not faster than that.

It's hard to take your point seriously after that.

WS move 12" + 18" with an optional further +6" for those that take star engines. All while also ignoring movement penalties. In what world is a 12" move faster then that? The only beast list in recent history that could catch them was the old beast pack, which did it by using 30+ models, making a massive footprint. 6 model beast units definitely will struggle to counter WS.

So, the WS completely forgoes shooting in order to spend the entire game RUNNING AWAY.
That does not solve anything. we return to the wraiths just camping around objectives and winning that way if you don't dedicate a hell lot of firepower to kill them.

Many things can out-race wraiths if they do nothing but run away. but running away will never win you a game.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Enlighten me what unit out there is too fast for beasts that liturally ignores any and all obstructions in its path?

WS are not faster than that.

It's hard to take your point seriously after that.

WS move 12" + 18" with an optional further +6" for those that take star engines. All while also ignoring movement penalties. In what world is a 12" move faster then that? The only beast list in recent history that could catch them was the old beast pack, which did it by using 30+ models, making a massive footprint. 6 model beast units definitely will struggle to counter WS.

So, the WS completely forgoes shooting in order to spend the entire game RUNNING AWAY.
That does not solve anything. we return to the wraiths just camping around objectives and winning that way if you don't dedicate a hell lot of firepower to kill them.

Many things can out-race wraiths if they do nothing but run away. but running away will never win you a game.

Why would they spend a whole game running? It will take the wraiths until turn 3 to get a charge off if the WS simply away 6" each turn while firing, so you shoot for two turns then boost away and repeat. Your exaggerating the movement on wraiths by insane amounts. I wouldn't shoot the wraiths with the WS either, no point, just shoot past them at your backfield and scoot until end of game where my Obsec wins out.

Eldar have a big leg up on necrons now, it's not even close. Your not even considering things like wraith knights, which cost less then wraith units and hard counter them when they do get too close. Spend turns 1-2 shooting open necron vehicles with s10 then jump into combat with the wraiths and pin them for the remainder of the game. Oh and at 240 they are less expensive.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Enlighten me what unit out there is too fast for beasts that liturally ignores any and all obstructions in its path?

WS are not faster than that.

It's hard to take your point seriously after that.

WS move 12" + 18" with an optional further +6" for those that take star engines. All while also ignoring movement penalties. In what world is a 12" move faster then that? The only beast list in recent history that could catch them was the old beast pack, which did it by using 30+ models, making a massive footprint. 6 model beast units definitely will struggle to counter WS.

So, the WS completely forgoes shooting in order to spend the entire game RUNNING AWAY.
That does not solve anything. we return to the wraiths just camping around objectives and winning that way if you don't dedicate a hell lot of firepower to kill them.

Many things can out-race wraiths if they do nothing but run away. but running away will never win you a game.

Wave serpentss can still move 12" and shoot. They are fast vehicles. So you have to weather the storm and try to corner them and when you finally do they can jump over you and move the extra distance to get away... that is if they need to at that point. They might just disembark and finish off your squad. I faced a 4 flyrant list the other day... it was painful and I am pretty sure if I had wraiths i would of been sucking as they could of just killed off the rest of my army while ignoring the wraiths or shoot the wraiths that are trying to camp the objectives. Just trying to prove the point here. If you spam wraiths I wont just beat you I will have a solid shot at tabling you with most of my current GT builds. I thought about spamming the wraiths but the list of hard counters added up fast. People are having a knee jerk because of the T5 and the gimicky RP that they wont have for more then a turn against good players.

I think you mean Waves not wraiths...


Realistically its 48" MAX for a Wraith to get to the enemy back field. with 12" movement and max run of 6" it will at least 2 or 3 turns to get to and corner anything.

EDIT: Its exceptionally obvious that they will have trouble with FMC and Fliers. but what other "Hard" Counters are you taking about and what GT armies will do exactly that?

Couldn't Warp Spiders easily just string along a unit of Wraiths?

 Desubot wrote:
I think you mean Waves not wraiths...


Realistically its 48" MAX for a Wraith to get to the enemy back field. with 12" movement and max run of 6" it will at least 2 or 3 turns to get to and corner anything.

EDIT: Its exceptionally obvious that they will have trouble with FMC and Fliers. but what other "Hard" Counters are you taking about and what GT armies will do exactly that?

Eldar
Tau (nothing really has less then S5 shooting and they know dakka more then most)
FMC Spam
Flyer Spam
A better balanced Necron build (Also my current Necron build which has 30 Tomb Blades.. Ide rather face the wraiths myself...)
AM believe or not they have the most availability to S10 firepower and have conscripts and/or blobs that are usually buffed to keep you back.
Orks have the numbers and the dakka to outright ignore the wraiths or lock them down with a unit for long enough.
Imperial Knights can wreck them in combat as well.
Psyker heavy armies... invisibility and other boost. The necrons lack psykers and most people are thinking of necron pure armies to get all of these buffs we keep mentioning.

It would be easier to just name what wraith spam is actually good against...

So you push a serpent up against a wall.

Start of your turn, you're 24" away.
Move 6" towards, as it can run no farther.
Its now 18" away at closest, 27" away at the tail end of he hull.
It then moves its at-best 36" over your head.

If both models were 0" in length, you'd be 18" away. A 6" charge, with fleet.

However, the Serpent's tail is about 9" closer than it's head (no part of the model can move more than the distance, and it faced you the round before).

Let's say you have 1" diameter Wraiths, all in a line.

You need to close (18"-9"-1") in one round. That's 8 inches. Cake.

If you can't cover 8 inches in a 12" move + fleet charge, you need help.

So serpents should definitely not be moving over your head.

Now for shooting.
Each Serpent does effectively 1 wound/round
At about 3x the cost, and Wraiths having 2 wounds, that's 6 rounds of shooting to make up its cost.

So if a game goes on for 6 rounds with Wraiths chasing them, and Serpents shooting them every round, the Serpents win. They flat out once, or Wraiths catch them, wraiths win.
Wraiths move faster than a non-flat-out serpent.
Wraiths can easily catch a Serpent even if it flat outs.

No. Serpents fail miserably against Wraiths. It should be an ideal matchup for them, but they just can't so it. Wraiths are scary.

 Tomb King wrote:
Sniped below

Eldar: Besides WS which i just pointed will have 2-3 turns max before getting in CC against fleeting Wraiths, Wraith knights can probably punk any that are left with ST10.
Tau: In the shear numbers needed by the time you kill 1 unit there will be 2-3 more right next to them which is the point. already pointed out you need Over 100-200 "hits" just to fell a unit. and broadsides are moving slow or will be snap shooting.

FMC Spam: Duh
Flyer Spam: Double Duh
balanced Necron build Waiting to see what comes up
AM What competitive AM Builds are there now a days. i haven't seen any lately. (like actual builds or list summaries?) im aware they can bring ST10 up the butt but do they actually do so in competitive settings. Demolisher are not seen that often
Orks : Yep Tarpitting them is kinda dealing with them yeah.
Imperial Knights : Yeah probably but what IK Spam list have been winning the competitive scene?
Psyker heavy armies... invisibility and other boost.: Sooo tarpit?


Edit: Speaking of 24" WS Scatter lasers which significantly buffs SS would allow for a charge nearly every turn. (since 12" + 12" charge against "within" 24" to shoot SL and SS (even more since IIRC the scatter laser is near the back of the WS)))

Bharring wrote:
So you push a serpent up against a wall.

Start of your turn, you're 24" away.
Move 6" towards, as it can run no farther.
Its now 18" away at closest, 27" away at the tail end of he hull.
It then moves its at-best 36" over your head.

If both models were 0" in length, you'd be 18" away. A 6" charge, with fleet.

However, the Serpent's tail is about 9" closer than it's head (no part of the model can move more than the distance, and it faced you the round before).

Let's say you have 1" diameter Wraiths, all in a line.

You need to close (18"-9"-1") in one round. That's 8 inches. Cake.

If you can't cover 8 inches in a 12" move + fleet charge, you need help.

So serpents should definitely not be moving over your head.

Now for shooting.
Each Serpent does effectively 1 wound/round
At about 3x the cost, and Wraiths having 2 wounds, that's 6 rounds of shooting to make up its cost.

So if a game goes on for 6 rounds with Wraiths chasing them, and Serpents shooting them every round, the Serpents win. They flat out once, or Wraiths catch them, wraiths win.
Wraiths move faster than a non-flat-out serpent.
Wraiths can easily catch a Serpent even if it flat outs.

No. Serpents fail miserably against Wraiths. It should be an ideal matchup for them, but they just can't so it. Wraiths are scary.

Or you know, you could move left or right, after all the table might be "just" 48" wide but it's also 72" across. 6 40mm bases aren't that much area coverage. Also heaven forbid the eldar player doesn't use his brain and use the 10 guardians to bubble wrap the tank if you did corner it, allowing the tank to definitely escape once your wraiths waste a round on 80 points that took 3 turns to catch.

Also, people, continue to just ignore the the almost standard 3 wraith knights that are cheaper, more versatile and absolutely counter wraiths. Without MSS these things become almost impossible for necrons to deal with effectively or efficiently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Sniped below

Eldar: Besides WS which i just pointed will have 2-3 turns max before getting in CC against fleeting Wraiths, Wraith knights can probably punk any that are left with ST10.
Tau: In the shear numbers needed by the time you kill 1 unit there will be 2-3 more right next to them which is the point. already pointed out you need Over 100-200 "hits" just to fell a unit. and broadsides are moving slow or will be snap shooting.

Again, why do people keep throwing numbers up like a good player will shoot the wraiths? I am personally floored to see canoptek harvest across the table personall, as your wasting more points on durability that you won't need because I am just going after your backfield until I need to tarpit your wraiths.

Wraith Knights won't waste time shooting wraiths, they will simply shoot your AV13 until the last moment when they need to tie you up. 6 wraiths are the same cost as a wraith knight if you forgo the whipcoils, they can't shoot unlike he can, they also aren't effective against horde or other durable units.
Tau can do the same thing with a nova charged riptide or a unit with a buff commander/ iridium armor tank since they can just become stubborn then HnR.

Nobody in here is saying wraiths are a bad unit or choice to take, simply that competitively they are not that good compared to other builds. I think destroyers are much scarier personally, they are also extremely durable but more importantly they actually will cause much higher amounts of damage from long range. Same goes for tomb blades. Destroyers are anti elite, P caster tomb blades are your anti horde.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:


Edit: Speaking of 24" WS Scatter lasers which significantly buffs SS would allow for a charge nearly every turn. (since 12" + 12" charge against "within" 24" to shoot SL and SS (even more since IIRC the scatter laser is near the back of the WS)))

Your unworthy of that avatar, SL are 36" range, no idea how you got 24"

WK wounds on 2's, Wraiths save on 3s.
Wraiths wound on 6s. WK can't save them.

Per attack, (5/6)(1/3) vs (1/6) means WK does hit harder, and takes 45 points of wraiths out with each failed save. Wraiths take out something like 40 points per wound. But equal points of Wraiths have far more attacks and wounds than a WK.

And Wraiths go first.

Doesnt look like a hard counter to me.

As for moving left/right, you're still either shooting or flat-outing. And perhaps of you back a serpent against the middle of the far edge in DoW deployment, the Serpent can flat out to either corner. But the Wraith unit, if spread right (3 guys gives you what, a 9-12" line?), wraiths just box them in again. Nother round passes, neither the Serpent nor Wraiths do damage.

As for dropping a 90pt Guardian unit in the way, just don't charge it. If they charge you, you need to kill 2 and they're more likely to run than not (odds they wound you are quite slim). And thats 90 points your 135 point unit likely wipes in a single round.

Not to mention you'd have to be daft to just be running up the table every round. You actually get a lot more distance charging a small threat where feasible. All while the Serpent is hopelessly plunking away against you. Youll wind up a mountain of points ahead.

And while were on it, I totally spaced that, if a Serpent is shooting you with everything, their nose is about 20" away from you. Chargeable, after a 12 inch move. Or you run forward and they either flat out to live a little longer, or you charge them next round. So Serpents will rarely be using their full firepower on you.

You seriously think wraiths aren't countered by wraith knights? You'd be lucky to chew your way out in 3 turns. Add that to the first 2 you waste getting their and we have a game length. Those first 2 turns I am cracking your AV13 shields. Not going for explodes, just cracking quantum shielding and moving on so the serpents can finish them.

You also have no idea how bubble wrap works from that response. If I wrap my WS with 10 guardians your wraiths either watch them since they don't have guns or assault and kill them and now my tank turbos away. Wraiths don't beet serpents.

Even if you catch a serpent, it takes you 2 turns minimum to get the tank and occupants which cost less total, your dreaming if you think you will efficiently deal with serpent spam using wraiths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:


Per attack, (5/6)(1/3) vs (1/6) means WK does hit harder, and takes 45 points of wraiths out with each failed save. Wraiths take out something like 40 points per wound. But equal points of Wraiths have far more attacks and wounds than a WK.

Wrong. You get 6 wounds worth since the WK doubles them out. I'd give the wraiths the medal except for the fact the WK has two heavy D canons making it a stronger unit. Wraiths do one thing only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:


As for moving left/right, you're still either shooting or flat-outing. And perhaps of you back a serpent against the middle of the far edge in DoW deployment, the Serpent can flat out to either corner. But the Wraith unit, if spread right (3 guys gives you what, a 9-12" line?), wraiths just box them in again. Nother round passes, neither the Serpent nor Wraiths do damage.

3 wraiths gives you exactly 8.5 inches, not 9-12. a 40mm base is 1.5" multiply that by 3 and add the two 2" gaps between them=8.5

You could with a full 6 achieve a 19" screen and with three units leaving 12" gaps between units make a decent line of threat, but then why would'nt the eldar player refuse flank and charge all three WK's into the nearest unit? Creates an obstacle, forces the other two units to run further and 3 WK will obliterate a single wraith unit.

The responses in here make it seem like the eldar player has no choice but to wait and get punched. It's not gona happen unless your playing a casual opponent.

Once your wraiths are occupied what on earth will you do to kill those WS? How will you protect your backfield?

Hence the 45 points per wound. Factored that in.

WK needs to successfully wound 5 times to drop 5 wraiths
5 wraiths need to successfully wound 5 times total to drop a WK.

WK wounds twice as often per attack, but with 5 models (how many attacks per models?) Wraiths still win for the points.

I don't think Wraiths should go hunting for the WK, but it would certainly be a jucy target of opportunity, if the Eldar player let them get close. I'm just saying WKs aren't a counter to Wraiths. Sure, you'll drop one every other round or so by shooting, but that's less than 10% of its cost per round. While needing to hide from the Wraiths.

Bubble wrap could give the Serpent another round of shooting - or two of running - but only prolong a losing battle.

Yeh, I think the saving grace is the tax on the formation, plus the fact that a D-lord can't effectively go with them anymore.

But yeah, I dunno why they got better >.>

Bharring wrote:
Hence the 45 points per wound. Factored that in.

WK needs to successfully wound 5 times to drop 5 wraiths
5 wraiths need to successfully wound 5 times total to drop a WK.

WK wounds twice as often per attack, but with 5 models (how many attacks per models?) Wraiths still win for the points.

I don't think Wraiths should go hunting for the WK, but it would certainly be a jucy target of opportunity, if the Eldar player let them get close. I'm just saying WKs aren't a counter to Wraiths. Sure, you'll drop one every other round or so by shooting, but that's less than 10% of its cost per round. While needing to hide from the Wraiths.

Bubble wrap could give the Serpent another round of shooting - or two of running - but only prolong a losing battle.

Nope WK have 6 wounds they need to successfully wound him 6 times to drop him.

Why would it give them 2 of running? You boost one turn then shoot for at least 2 more.

It's probably been said already, but I imagine an Imperial Knight would be able to handle some Wraiths. I don't see why it couldn't?

The WK is also 240, not 200, so costs 6 Wraiths, not 5.

WK has 4 attacks base, +1 for charge. Even if Wraiths had 1 attack each, theyd still win if the WK Charges. But they get +6 attacks if they manage to get the charge.

I assumed with bubblewrap we were talking about after you had backed it against the far board edge.

Either way, it flat outs at best 36". You consolidate and move for 19", so its furthest point is 11" away. It could back off 12" and fire two weapons - putting its furthest point at best 23", and if its shooting more than the SL, its closest point is at most 14" away from you (9" in length). Move 12, then charge 2". Dead serpent. Bought one extra round of shooting. So you lost 20 points worth of wounds.

It could flat out a second time. Assuming its not cornered already. And it has a place to go. Might even get a round of shooting off, before you corner it. But you win.

So t1/2 you push forward, it falls back shooting (20pts/round). T3 it shoots (20 pts) and feeds you bubblewrap which you obligingly eat (90 pts). It then flat outs t4. Then, t5, it shoots once more (20pts), then dies (155+ pts, star engines). Or it flat outs t5, shoots if there is a t6 (20pts), and dies if there is a t7 (155+ pts).

So the Serpent kills two Wraiths all game for 155 points, gets a 90 point bubble wrap killed, and may/may not survive. So, if you have nothing else to charge along the way, the Eldar lost 245 points to keep your 120 points busy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(All this is a good thing. I think Blasix's point in the other thread is right. Perhaps this will just knock Serpent Spam and MC centerpiece armies down a peg. Something they need.)

Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.

Bharring wrote:
The WK is also 240, not 200, so costs 6 Wraiths, not 5.

WK has 4 attacks base, +1 for charge. Even if Wraiths had 1 attack each, theyd still win if the WK Charges. But they get +6 attacks if they manage to get the charge.

I assumed with bubblewrap we were talking about after you had backed it against the far board edge.

Either way, it flat outs at best 36". You consolidate and move for 19", so its furthest point is 11" away. It could back off 12" and fire two weapons - putting its furthest point at best 23", and if its shooting more than the SL, its closest point is at most 14" away from you (9" in length). Move 12, then charge 2". Dead serpent. Bought one extra round of shooting. So you lost 20 points worth of wounds.

It could flat out a second time. Assuming its not cornered already. And it has a place to go. Might even get a round of shooting off, before you corner it. But you win.

So t1/2 you push forward, it falls back shooting (20pts/round). T3 it shoots (20 pts) and feeds you bubblewrap which you obligingly eat (90 pts). It then flat outs t4. Then, t5, it shoots once more (20pts), then dies (155+ pts, star engines). Or it flat outs t5, shoots if there is a t6 (20pts), and dies if there is a t7 (155+ pts).

So the Serpent kills two Wraiths all game for 155 points, gets a 90 point bubble wrap killed, and may/may not survive. So, if you have nothing else to charge along the way, the Eldar lost 245 points to keep your 120 points busy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(All this is a good thing. I think Blasix's point in the other thread is right. Perhaps this will just knock Serpent Spam and MC centerpiece armies down a peg. Something they need.)

At this point I am done with you. Your not even reading my posts or being realistic. I said it's 1WK vs 6 wraiths FROM THE START. I mean you didn't even know a WK has 6 wounds until I corrected you, so how can you even discuss it's strengths or weaknesses?

I hate discussions that devolve into, well if you do A I'll just do B.... The game is fluid, and I like to assume my opponents are not morons. It's not hard to dictate the terms of an encounter with a unit that moves 12" a turn and has no ranged attack. Period. All it can do is play chase, meaning your opponent will always chose when and where he wants to deal with the threat.

Old school wraith wing was decent because it packed 3-4 NS and 3 AB's (which btw are worse as well) and had MSS destroyer lords for things like the wk. Show me how on earth you can fit all those units into a Necron army now? Make an 1850 list and I'll make an 1850 eldar list and show you how outgunned you'll be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TranSpyre wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.

Ha ha I love that idea actually, the thought of an Orcan man eversor is awesome!

 TranSpyre wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.

Thats adorable. but can he survive that many hits and make that many 4+ saves?