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 BoomWolf wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Leaving points aside, I'd rather face a hammernator count equal to the wraiths, spider and scarabs combined than this formation in decurion. it CANNOT be killed, it CANNOT be avoided and it CANNOT be tarpitted by any measures that do not cost far too much and make you fall behind to begin with.
It seems like airplanes are the only thing that will endure it, but airplanes do not win games, not now that the only real "air domination" army was the necrons, and their airforce got reduced to sane levels.

We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"

OMG! Conscripts are so expensive, and the wraiths murder like 7 guardsmen per phase!! They can't be stopped...

But seriously. There are tarpits that can stop them cost-effectively if you've gotten to the point where you just need to throw something at them.

Two problems with that thought:

1-not every army even has access to tarpits in general, let alone anything that can clog down the wraiths for more than a turn or at best two, and in any case conscripts do NOT tarpit them, they are a speedbump at best. without a fearless source they will just run away after a single round, and that is if they even manage to get into combat with the far faster wraiths.

2-even if a true tarpit DOES show up, the scarabs are there to either try a pre-tarpit, or bail out the wraiths. either way-advantage to the necron player.

50 Conscripts... +25 point priest = locking two units of wraiths for the rest of the game.

liberal application of assault cannons, razorbacks with assault cannons are cheap as chips and you get 4s6 ap4 rending twin linked shots.

a contempor mortisd with kheres ac's gets 12 shots at the same statline.

your going to mulch wraiths with that

 koooaei wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Well, what GW seems to be doing with both this and the Judicator formation is that the enemy should Shoot the Big Ones.

Kill the Spyder of course. He doesn't have an invulnerable save. With RP (what happened to Fleet and Shred??), it'll take about 7 or 8 lascannon-level hits to kill him (he has 3 wounds, right?), not counting any cover saves he might get.

Pretty tough for a 50 pt model, eh.
.

He'd better be. He's what the whole formation revolves around.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:
I know that the Wraith unit has a 4+ Reanimation Protocol within 12" of the Spyder, but does it have the regular 5+ RP away from it?

No! People havent bridged that gap yet. Its kind if like assuming your grimiore going off perfectly on your daemons everytime...
Also if necrons go second then the buf is not even active on turn one.

As if it matters?
They are durable enough even WITHOUT the RP, they simply become unkillable with it.

There is no way you can, at T1, dedicate the needed firepower to kill a whole bunch of T5 W2 3++ units. few things have the range and the power to be a serious threat.

And its far from assuming grimiore. the book has a 1/3 chance to not only not work, but bite you in the ass, the spider just need to keep in range-a decision completely in the hands of the necron player.
Even assuming he had turn 2, the spider is still a T6 W3 3+ unit for 50 points, and that's assuming he is NOT hidden behind something (say, wraiths?). nothing in the game can kill it in a well-budget matter. when the RP turns on it becomes a TMC level of durability for the price of a single TWC.

And if he needs to slow down his wraiths, so freaking what? you still got no chance at all to kill the spider or the wraiths with most armies. the few who does won't get it done within the time limit of wraiths arrival to the enemy lines (T3 at the very worst) and those who got the firepower to hurt them, are unlikely to have a unit that can tarpit them.
Not that there is a tarpit not costing practically the same and CAN hold them off to begin with.


Leaving points aside, I'd rather face a hammernator count equal to the wraiths, spider and scarabs combined than this formation in decurion. it CANNOT be killed, it CANNOT be avoided and it CANNOT be tarpitted by any measures that do not cost far too much and make you fall behind to begin with.
It seems like airplanes are the only thing that will endure it, but airplanes do not win games, not now that the only real "air domination" army was the necrons, and their airforce got reduced to sane levels.

We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"

Further to what you've said I would like to add that the Spyder is a single model and therefore not hard to hide, especially in your deployment zone. Even if you do get first turn against the Wraith player then shooting that Spyder is not a given. You'll need something to deepstrike back field to shoot at it like a drop pod of sternguard and not everybody takes those in their lists.

People in the thread have suggested some counters to mitigate against it but then again foresight is a wonderful thing. You don't always know that you're going to come up against an army list of Wraiths. Suggest using a Wraithknight to tie them up doesn't really help Eldar players who take Wave Serpents and Seer Council on Jetbikes. You might advocate that Wave Serpents can outmanoeuvre them easily along with the Jetbikes but you don't get a lot of space on the table. You not only need to move away from the Wraiths but you also need to keep your Wave Serpent out of range from other units your opponent has and also take care over terrain, so it's not as always easy as just flying past him 18 or 24" without a care in the world. If you are in a corner and the Wraiths are 12" away from you then shooting up the table or even across the table 24" isn't going to take them out of their charge range. Sure it's fine if your whizzing in completely the opposite direction but that is not always possible, especially if your opponent already has another fast moving unit coming down that side of the board.

 DarthOvious wrote:

People in the thread have suggested some counters to mitigate against it but then again foresight is a wonderful thing. You don't always know that you're going to come up against an army list of Wraiths. Suggest using a Wraithknight to tie them up doesn't really help Eldar players who take Wave Serpents and Seer Council on Jetbikes. You might advocate that Wave Serpents can outmanoeuvre them easily along with the Jetbikes but you don't get a lot of space on the table. You not only need to move away from the Wraiths but you also need to keep your Wave Serpent out of range from other units your opponent has and also take care over terrain, so it's not as always easy as just flying past him 18 or 24" without a care in the world. If you are in a corner and the Wraiths are 12" away from you then shooting up the table or even across the table 24" isn't going to take them out of their charge range. Sure it's fine if your whizzing in completely the opposite direction but that is not always possible, especially if your opponent already has another fast moving unit coming down that side of the board.

I can understand if wraiths are going to be a problem for players who take serpents and Jetseer councils, but just because wraiths are a hard match-up for what is a very strong eldar build; doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that. That is the nature of the beast, new dex is out, meta changes. Jetseer lists will have to change, oh woe eldar players they have to stop playing their ultimate stomp face lists because its no longer an uncounterable list.....

If players can't alter their lists to be able to deal with a developing meta then they can't call themselves competitive players. Playing for fun with a list you know is now countered by the new meta is fine, but you can't complain because you chose to do so.

In summary; New dex, new meta, new lists - we may see the end of serpent spam, we may not. time will tell and all will be fine with the world.

The Canoptek formation is its own detachment and can be used by itself as an allied detachment, right?

Maybe it's time to make some Dark Mechanicum "Necrons" to go with my CSM

(Wrong page)

 DarthOvious wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:
I know that the Wraith unit has a 4+ Reanimation Protocol within 12" of the Spyder, but does it have the regular 5+ RP away from it?

No! People havent bridged that gap yet. Its kind if like assuming your grimiore going off perfectly on your daemons everytime...
Also if necrons go second then the buf is not even active on turn one.

As if it matters?
They are durable enough even WITHOUT the RP, they simply become unkillable with it.

There is no way you can, at T1, dedicate the needed firepower to kill a whole bunch of T5 W2 3++ units. few things have the range and the power to be a serious threat.

And its far from assuming grimiore. the book has a 1/3 chance to not only not work, but bite you in the ass, the spider just need to keep in range-a decision completely in the hands of the necron player.
Even assuming he had turn 2, the spider is still a T6 W3 3+ unit for 50 points, and that's assuming he is NOT hidden behind something (say, wraiths?). nothing in the game can kill it in a well-budget matter. when the RP turns on it becomes a TMC level of durability for the price of a single TWC.

And if he needs to slow down his wraiths, so freaking what? you still got no chance at all to kill the spider or the wraiths with most armies. the few who does won't get it done within the time limit of wraiths arrival to the enemy lines (T3 at the very worst) and those who got the firepower to hurt them, are unlikely to have a unit that can tarpit them.
Not that there is a tarpit not costing practically the same and CAN hold them off to begin with.


Leaving points aside, I'd rather face a hammernator count equal to the wraiths, spider and scarabs combined than this formation in decurion. it CANNOT be killed, it CANNOT be avoided and it CANNOT be tarpitted by any measures that do not cost far too much and make you fall behind to begin with.
It seems like airplanes are the only thing that will endure it, but airplanes do not win games, not now that the only real "air domination" army was the necrons, and their airforce got reduced to sane levels.

We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"

Further to what you've said I would like to add that the Spyder is a single model and therefore not hard to hide, especially in your deployment zone. Even if you do get first turn against the Wraith player then shooting that Spyder is not a given. You'll need something to deepstrike back field to shoot at it like a drop pod of sternguard and not everybody takes those in their lists.

People in the thread have suggested some counters to mitigate against it but then again foresight is a wonderful thing. You don't always know that you're going to come up against an army list of Wraiths. Suggest using a Wraithknight to tie them up doesn't really help Eldar players who take Wave Serpents and Seer Council on Jetbikes. You might advocate that Wave Serpents can outmanoeuvre them easily along with the Jetbikes but you don't get a lot of space on the table. You not only need to move away from the Wraiths but you also need to keep your Wave Serpent out of range from other units your opponent has and also take care over terrain, so it's not as always easy as just flying past him 18 or 24" without a care in the world. If you are in a corner and the Wraiths are 12" away from you then shooting up the table or even across the table 24" isn't going to take them out of their charge range. Sure it's fine if your whizzing in completely the opposite direction but that is not always possible, especially if your opponent already has another fast moving unit coming down that side of the board.

But that also works the other way around..players simply assume that those wraiths get a turn 2 assault and don't think about the 'snake eyes' charge range you will get at sum point. After that the are outside the spider range and get shot to pieces.

I will say it again:

- Daemon FMC list
- Daemon list with herald of khorne + 15 fleshhounds + grimoir + cursed earth
- 2x wraithknight +4-plus wave serpents
- space marine bike army + 2x chapter master with storm shields and thunder hammer
- Tyranid 3+ flying Hive tyrant devourer list
etc...etc...

They're are enough good lists out their that can deal with those wraiths. dont get me wrong..they're good...but without the old "tesla" snapshot backup and the current price increase on barges and flyers the are not overpowered..

No one thinks of snake eyes when it comes to internet discussions. considering we can only talk about the averages.

Its the same line if thinking as saying X is bad because we can roll 1s.

Fact of the matter is Wraiths really haven't changed toooo much. 99% of the issue is the RP that bumps them up to near unkillable. Without it, they die just like they did before to High strength weapons of the ST7 variety everyone has and uses. its just harder to double down now.

If anything we should discuss how to deal with the spider if we wanna get anywhere against the wraiths.

Solar Shock wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

People in the thread have suggested some counters to mitigate against it but then again foresight is a wonderful thing. You don't always know that you're going to come up against an army list of Wraiths. Suggest using a Wraithknight to tie them up doesn't really help Eldar players who take Wave Serpents and Seer Council on Jetbikes. You might advocate that Wave Serpents can outmanoeuvre them easily along with the Jetbikes but you don't get a lot of space on the table. You not only need to move away from the Wraiths but you also need to keep your Wave Serpent out of range from other units your opponent has and also take care over terrain, so it's not as always easy as just flying past him 18 or 24" without a care in the world. If you are in a corner and the Wraiths are 12" away from you then shooting up the table or even across the table 24" isn't going to take them out of their charge range. Sure it's fine if your whizzing in completely the opposite direction but that is not always possible, especially if your opponent already has another fast moving unit coming down that side of the board.

I can understand if wraiths are going to be a problem for players who take serpents and Jetseer councils, but just because wraiths are a hard match-up for what is a very strong eldar build; doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that. That is the nature of the beast, new dex is out, meta changes. Jetseer lists will have to change, oh woe eldar players they have to stop playing their ultimate stomp face lists because its no longer an uncounterable list.....

If players can't alter their lists to be able to deal with a developing meta then they can't call themselves competitive players. Playing for fun with a list you know is now countered by the new meta is fine, but you can't complain because you chose to do so.

In summary; New dex, new meta, new lists - we may see the end of serpent spam, we may not. time will tell and all will be fine with the world.

I was just making an observation in regards to the debate going on. I do think that Wriaths with RP in the Canoptek Harvest formation is just way too survivable. Overall Wraiths are really strong without it so I don't know what on earth they were thinking with that one. However, other than that they are fine the way they are if they don't have RP, with the exception that they are a bit undercosted. I'm thinking another 5-10 points should have been added per model. I don't play competitively as such so it's not a big deal for me. I can hope that I don't come up against it in my friendly games and if I do I'll just need to do the best I can against it.

Well, the T bump makes a lot of S8 weapons not ID them anymore. Last time I fought wraiths, it was a 500 point game, there were three of them, and they mostly dropped to a single-unit's shooting (the last one died to a HoW attack).

Lots of hyperbole thrown around by necron players about how unbeatable wraith lists are. The fact of the matter is I am positive there will be wraith lists at the LVO and I would put money down that there is litterally no chance it will win. I doubt it even makes top 5. There is plenty of hard coubters to the list none of which is list tailoring. The greentide is a clear list that wraiths lists are completely and utterly ineffective against. Go ahead spam 3 harvest detschments and then watch as 18 wraiths and 3 spyders get ground down in 2-3 turns. People keep telling you these hard counters but putting ur fingers in your ears is not going to stop them. Regardless the LVO is happening soon and will surely end this debate about how il unstoppable wraiths are. In a tournament setting they just don't have enough offensive but have fun beating your local players fluffy builds.

shogun wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:
I know that the Wraith unit has a 4+ Reanimation Protocol within 12" of the Spyder, but does it have the regular 5+ RP away from it?

No! People havent bridged that gap yet. Its kind if like assuming your grimiore going off perfectly on your daemons everytime...
Also if necrons go second then the buf is not even active on turn one.

As if it matters?
They are durable enough even WITHOUT the RP, they simply become unkillable with it.

There is no way you can, at T1, dedicate the needed firepower to kill a whole bunch of T5 W2 3++ units. few things have the range and the power to be a serious threat.

And its far from assuming grimiore. the book has a 1/3 chance to not only not work, but bite you in the ass, the spider just need to keep in range-a decision completely in the hands of the necron player.
Even assuming he had turn 2, the spider is still a T6 W3 3+ unit for 50 points, and that's assuming he is NOT hidden behind something (say, wraiths?). nothing in the game can kill it in a well-budget matter. when the RP turns on it becomes a TMC level of durability for the price of a single TWC.

And if he needs to slow down his wraiths, so freaking what? you still got no chance at all to kill the spider or the wraiths with most armies. the few who does won't get it done within the time limit of wraiths arrival to the enemy lines (T3 at the very worst) and those who got the firepower to hurt them, are unlikely to have a unit that can tarpit them.
Not that there is a tarpit not costing practically the same and CAN hold them off to begin with.


Leaving points aside, I'd rather face a hammernator count equal to the wraiths, spider and scarabs combined than this formation in decurion. it CANNOT be killed, it CANNOT be avoided and it CANNOT be tarpitted by any measures that do not cost far too much and make you fall behind to begin with.
It seems like airplanes are the only thing that will endure it, but airplanes do not win games, not now that the only real "air domination" army was the necrons, and their airforce got reduced to sane levels.

We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"

Further to what you've said I would like to add that the Spyder is a single model and therefore not hard to hide, especially in your deployment zone. Even if you do get first turn against the Wraith player then shooting that Spyder is not a given. You'll need something to deepstrike back field to shoot at it like a drop pod of sternguard and not everybody takes those in their lists.

People in the thread have suggested some counters to mitigate against it but then again foresight is a wonderful thing. You don't always know that you're going to come up against an army list of Wraiths. Suggest using a Wraithknight to tie them up doesn't really help Eldar players who take Wave Serpents and Seer Council on Jetbikes. You might advocate that Wave Serpents can outmanoeuvre them easily along with the Jetbikes but you don't get a lot of space on the table. You not only need to move away from the Wraiths but you also need to keep your Wave Serpent out of range from other units your opponent has and also take care over terrain, so it's not as always easy as just flying past him 18 or 24" without a care in the world. If you are in a corner and the Wraiths are 12" away from you then shooting up the table or even across the table 24" isn't going to take them out of their charge range. Sure it's fine if your whizzing in completely the opposite direction but that is not always possible, especially if your opponent already has another fast moving unit coming down that side of the board.

But that also works the other way around..players simply assume that those wraiths get a turn 2 assault and don't think about the 'snake eyes' charge range you will get at sum point. After that the are outside the spider range and get shot to pieces.

I will say it again:

- Daemon FMC list
- Daemon list with herald of khorne + 15 fleshhounds + grimoir + cursed earth
- 2x wraithknight +4-plus wave serpents
- space marine bike army + 2x chapter master with storm shields and thunder hammer
- Tyranid 3+ flying Hive tyrant devourer list
etc...etc...

They're are enough good lists out their that can deal with those wraiths. dont get me wrong..they're good...but without the old "tesla" snapshot backup and the current price increase on barges and flyers the are not overpowered.

In the example I gave previously they were 12" away from the Wave Serpent. The Wraiths can move 12" and only need 2" to assault. If the cornered Wave Serpent moves 24" up the table they are still 12" away from the Wraiths, just in the opposite direction and if they move 12" across the board then they are still 12" away, just in another direction. Try to think of it like a right angled triangle with a height of 24" and a length of 24" with the Wave Serpent being in the corner of the right angle. If the Wraiths are placed 12" up the height and 12" along lengthways then their isn't any way for the Wave Serpent to get out of charge range next turn.

I also understand that it's not always going to be the case that this situation will arise but I'm just pointing out that it's not a foregone conclusion that Wave Serpents are going to easily outmanoeuvre the Wraiths. There is only so much space on a table to move. I tend to play on boards that are 4x4 or 6x4 so perhaps that isn't necessarily the case with some of the other players here. In addition the Wraiths are survivable enough to last in order to survive for a few turns before they get the charge. I agree that it's not going to be every game that Wraiths get a 2nd turn charge, they might get a poor run move or something but they are actually durable enough to last 3 or more turns anyway. As I said earlier on, if the harvest formation is in effect it takes 21 lascannon shots to kill one of those Wraiths. It used to take 18 Lascannon shots to kill the 5th edition Sanguinor when he had a 3++ save. Now just imagine a whole unit with a 3++ save coming towards you with T5 and 12 wounds (4 times that of the Sanguinor), that's a heck of a lot of Lascannon shots that is going to be need to take care of that. You could try small arms fire but with the boost in toughness, small arms fire is now less effective than it was previously against Wraiths. Now imagine if your opponent takes 3 squads of 6 of these, even without using the formation. You now have 36 3++ T5 wounds to take care of. I could work it out for you if you want but lets just say that it will take a massive amount of firepower if you want to kill those things, even without 4+++ RP.

gungo wrote:
Lots of hyperbole thrown around by necron players about how unbeatable wraith lists are. The fact of the matter is I am positive there will be wraith lists at the LVO and I would put money down that there is litterally no chance it will win. I doubt it even makes top 5. There is plenty of hard coubters to the list none of which is list tailoring. The greentide is a clear list that wraiths lists are completely and utterly ineffective against. Go ahead spam 3 harvest detschments and then watch as 18 wraiths and 3 spyders get ground down in 2-3 turns. People keep telling you these hard counters but putting ur fingers in your ears is not going to stop them. Regardless the LVO is happening soon and will surely end this debate about how il unstoppable wraiths are. In a tournament setting they just don't have enough offensive but have fun beating your local players fluffy builds.

Hyperbole?

We literally mathed it out. you need an OBSCENE amount of damage to take out a unit.

that is mathematically fact.

Im at least glad people are running green tide, though i haven't seen one in forever.

Edit: as well not sure which ones do but some Tournies out right ban Formations and the like. Will need to see how they handle crons.

gungo wrote:
Lots of hyperbole thrown around by necron players about how unbeatable wraith lists are. The fact of the matter is I am positive there will be wraith lists at the LVO and I would put money down that there is litterally no chance it will win. I doubt it even makes top 5. There is plenty of hard coubters to the list none of which is list tailoring. The greentide is a clear list that wraiths lists are completely and utterly ineffective against. Go ahead spam 3 harvest detschments and then watch as 18 wraiths and 3 spyders get ground down in 2-3 turns. People keep telling you these hard counters but putting ur fingers in your ears is not going to stop them. Regardless the LVO is happening soon and will surely end this debate about how il unstoppable wraiths are. In a tournament setting they just don't have enough offensive but have fun beating your local players fluffy builds.

Tournament wise I am actually expecting Wraith lists to not have the RP from the harvest formation. They will consist of some wraiths and the army will be filled with other things to take care of things like greentide.

I fought 2 minimim sized formations of them so only 6 wraiths and omfg i was wrong about them in my initial assessment.

I played a less competitive list to give my buddy a fun game and not do any eldar cheese... i was wrong to do that i got decimated, he went first so i had 1 shooting phase before they assulted basically. On one side i had 3 vipers with 2 Shurikin Cannons each and 2 war walkers with 2 Scatter Lasers. I killed 1 of the 3.... not enough.

In the other flank i poured in like 15 guardians and a ton of other fire from my wraithknight and others and killed 1... not enough again.

Granted my army was not fully optimized and i did make it that way thinking i dont want to be cheesy the first outing with my buddys new crons. I told him im not holding back now that his army is signifigantly buffed. I hope he dosnt run 2 sets of that formation alot cause even with my A game eldar its still going to be tough. Thats only with 6! i can only imagine 9+ wraiths with reanimation.

Cause the whole game i didnt touch any of his warriors or immortals, i blew up a doomsday arc but not its 2 ahhnialation barge escorts, and i instagibbed his scarabs with my wraithknight in combat by steping on them but he was chiped down a bit by them.

One reason i got decemated is i outflanked a serpent with scorpians and that was way too much points off the table. They didnt come on till t4 when i was basically tabled then...

Pdogg614 wrote:
I fought 2 minimim sized formations of them so only 6 wraiths and omfg i was wrong about them in my initial assessment.

I played a less competitive list to give my buddy a fun game and not do any eldar cheese... i was wrong to do that i got decimated, he went first so i had 1 shooting phase before they assulted basically. On one side i had 3 vipers with 2 Shurikin Cannons each and 2 war walkers with 2 Scatter Lasers. I killed 1 of the 3.... not enough.

In the other flank i poured in like 15 guardians and a ton of other fire from my wraithknight and others and killed 1... not enough again.

Granted my army was not fully optimized and i did make it that way thinking i dont want to be cheesy the first outing with my buddys new crons. I told him im not holding back now that his army is signifigantly buffed. I hope he dosnt run 2 sets of that formation alot cause even with my A game eldar its still going to be tough. Thats only with 6! i can only imagine 9+ wraiths with reanimation.

Ask to play him full cheese and bring out all the eldar toys

Then come back with an assessment

Its pretty much the same with my game against 4 of those bugger formations.

 Desubot wrote:

Pdogg614 wrote:
I fought 2 minimim sized formations of them so only 6 wraiths and omfg i was wrong about them in my initial assessment.

I played a less competitive list to give my buddy a fun game and not do any eldar cheese... i was wrong to do that i got decimated, he went first so i had 1 shooting phase before they assulted basically. On one side i had 3 vipers with 2 Shurikin Cannons each and 2 war walkers with 2 Scatter Lasers. I killed 1 of the 3.... not enough.

In the other flank i poured in like 15 guardians and a ton of other fire from my wraithknight and others and killed 1... not enough again.

Granted my army was not fully optimized and i did make it that way thinking i dont want to be cheesy the first outing with my buddys new crons. I told him im not holding back now that his army is signifigantly buffed. I hope he dosnt run 2 sets of that formation alot cause even with my A game eldar its still going to be tough. Thats only with 6! i can only imagine 9+ wraiths with reanimation.

Ask to play him full cheese and bring out all the eldar toys

Then come back with an assessment

Its pretty much the same with my game against 4 of those bugger formations.

I do think with more serpent dakka it would help, is there any eldar counter assult unit that could be reccomended to intercept them i cant think of any that would be effiecient enough to be worth throwing at them lol.

Besides all the "Chuck your ST10 WK at it" ?

Probably not. you need some sort of High WS or Large Fearless unit to deal with them for a bit. thats pretty much the only way to deal with them besides out right Focusing your entire army on them one at a time.

Makes me wana run Wyches Edit: ok not really.

OK, so I had to go there and I had to work it out and now I am cringing. To take care of 36 full wounds of off wraiths and this is without RP I have worked it will take the following weapons the corresponding amount of shots to take off the full 36 wounds.

Bolter - 486 shots
Heavy Bolter - 324 shots
Lascannon - 194 shots
Assault Cannon - 243 shots

No offence but I don't think my full army list has in it the amount of shots needed to take care of those 36 wounds. Even if I get 100 rapid firing marines it would take me 2 and a half turns just to take out the Wraiths alone and lets be honest here, I am not going to have 100 rapid firing marines in my list.

Double that in that silly formation spider duran duran thing ><

 Desubot wrote:
Double that in that silly formation spider duran duran thing ><

Yep, I'm starting to see how ridiculous the new wraiths are going to be. It's worse that I initially thought. Time to start crying.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Double that in that silly formation spider duran duran thing ><

Yep, I'm starting to see how ridiculous the new wraiths are going to be. It's worse that I initially thought. Time to start crying.

Pepls will keep hand waiving it off has hyperbole though

 DarthOvious wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Double that in that silly formation spider duran duran thing ><

Yep, I'm starting to see how ridiculous the new wraiths are going to be. It's worse that I initially thought. Time to start crying.

Wow... Is MSU really that foreign to you?

Go ahead spend 3 turns getting a charge onto my transport that costs 13% what your unit costs. Then spend another turn charging a combat squad thats 26% your unit cost, then after that you can try for the other combat squad. Good job it's taken you 5 turns to earn back 2/3rds your price piont, oh btw my units also only take up one slot and have super scoring.

Formation wraiths have a tax of 2 units with the exact same issues making that cost ratio worse.

why waste shots and time shooting the wraiths, ignore them.


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 Desubot wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Double that in that silly formation spider duran duran thing ><

Yep, I'm starting to see how ridiculous the new wraiths are going to be. It's worse that I initially thought. Time to start crying.

Pepls will keep hand waiving it off has hyperbole though

No, stop making ignorant remarks at other posters. People aren't saying they are not insanely durable, people are saying they lack the tools and price efficiency to win games on objectives.

 Red Corsair wrote:


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 Desubot wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Double that in that silly formation spider duran duran thing ><

Yep, I'm starting to see how ridiculous the new wraiths are going to be. It's worse that I initially thought. Time to start crying.

Pepls will keep hand waiving it off has hyperbole though

No, stop making ignorant remarks at other posters. People aren't saying they are not insanely durable, people are saying they lack the tools and price efficiency to win games on objectives.

1) It was supposed to be sarcastic.
2) There ARE people stating that Wraiths are not OP or over blown.


People keep calling it a TAX but Seriously When did having a bunch of Fast moving low profile units become a tax. Its flippin insane that they can run around nabbin objectives like its no ones business while they send the other half of there EXCEPTIONALLY Fast army to force your plays. Sure you can kill off the Spider, but its still a In your face Super fast unit of High T wraiths coming to face punch you while you do. (Edit: not really face punch but lock your Threats)

1. This is a tactics thread and while humor is welcome, single line posts that contribute nothing but your sarcasm are not OK. They are considered spam.


2. Its a tax because it isn't cheap and still lacks obsec all while not being as mobile as you suggest. Seriously how do you figure 3 t3 scarab bases are tough? Even with 4+ RP people will use ID on them meaning they have a 5++ to save whats effectively 3 wounds, 4 after the spyder makes a base if they go first. EVERY TAC army I own has a way to snipe such units. Either DPods, thunderfires, scalpel squadrons or other wise. That's giving me FB. If your too busy hiding them AND that spyder then yes they are a tax because they are doing little to nothing and costing you 110 points minimum. The spyder will hide at deployment if possible, then he very much needs to just play chase, if you want to farm scarabs they need to play chase as well, that's hardly a flexible/tactical group.

I also refer to it as a tax because a smart player isn't going to shoot at even CAD wraiths which are already too durable to be worth it, so the idea of necron players paying to make an already ignored unit MORE ignorable is just pointless to me. Consider this:

Necron decurion: 479

canoptek Harvest: 368

That's 847 and the necron troops have no transports and its a naked overlord, oh and the tomb blades are naked as well. Looking at nearly half of a tournament level list and it has almost no shooting lol.

The issue is that wraiths are just so damn effecient for what they bring to the army. The opponent having a durable unit that can get into your boardside and pick off anything it wants and you cant do anything about it is insane. If you try you most likely have let the rest of his almost as durable(in a decurion) units reign free and the necron shooting pick apart anything else in the game too now with gauss now wounding on 6.

I used to be able to focus them down t1 still using most of my firepower in the last dex but now trying that in the new one feel like you just need to get lucky. The fact that it takes 12 wounds to successfully take one down on average that more than a full serpent worth of shooting to take even 1 down.

Pdogg614 wrote:
The issue is that wraiths are just so damn effecient for what they bring to the army. The opponent having a durable unit that can get into your boardside and pick off anything it wants and you cant do anything about it is insane.

Greatly blown out of proportion.

They hardly kill anything in one go unless its something like a combat squad.

Combat Squad= MSU

MSU > Then 258 pt units that can only assault one well positioned target at a time.

I still think it's a MASSIVE fallacy to still even be considering the canoptek harvest.

Why bother taking the formation when you can just get 18 coil-wraiths for <800 points? Wraiths are insanely durable even without the 4+ RP and 18 of them is a threat-level that no army can handle.

The harvest formation is an expensive honey-trap, and for the purposes of this thread its nothing more than a red herring for the skeptics to latch onto.

Assault an msu t3
And t4
And t5
On average, and t6

258/4 = 64.5

Most codexes have something in that price range, but building an entire army out of them?

And you can't counter by just throwing in a few of them. Wraiths have a wide threatrange to pick their targets from.


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(This thread reminds me of ones from when the Serpent Shield rules leaked...)