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 TranSpyre wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.

I'm curious about this too, so here's the math on the Eversor:
Shooting - BS8, 4 poison shots: 3.67 hits, 1.83 wounds, 0.61 unsaved (3+ armor) for 0.31 after a 4+ RP.
Assault - WS8, 8 fleshbane+shred attacks on the charge: 5.33 hits, 5.18 wounds, 1.73 unsaved (3+ armor) for 0.86 after a 4+ RP.
So 1.17 wounds on average, assuming my math is correct, depending on how you like to treat partial wounds the spyder has 1-2 wounds left. Obviously luck will play a big role, but he can hurt the thing.
The bigger benefit if you can actually pull this off is that the spyder probably won't kill him, and will be stuck in combat as the wraiths move forward, losing their RP. Or the wraiths will slow down or turn back, buying you another turn to kill the other parts of the necron army and grab objectives.

The biggest difficulty of course will be getting the Eversor into combat without being shot down or assaulted by the scarabs or the wraiths themselves.

I haven't read the other 13 pages so sorry if it was mentioned. But space marines can just put a Vindicator or two on the table and probably lay down the hurt a wraith unit. And then turn their attention to whatever else.

My Tau on the other hand don't have S10 blasts lying around, so probably just drown them with shots. But a unit of 6 wraiths will take a lot of shots to put down. So I probably going to find myself in the assault :/

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
I haven't read the other 13 pages so sorry if it was mentioned. But space marines can just put a Vindicator or two on the table and probably lay down the hurt a wraith unit. And then turn their attention to whatever else.

My Tau on the other hand don't have S10 blasts lying around, so probably just drown them with shots. But a unit of 6 wraiths will take a lot of shots to put down. So I probably going to find myself in the assault :/

It takes a LOT. Sitting there shooting about 3-4 times before 1 of mine died, only killed 2 because of that blasted 3++ 5+++

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
I haven't read the other 13 pages so sorry if it was mentioned. But space marines can just put a Vindicator or two on the table and probably lay down the hurt a wraith unit. And then turn their attention to whatever else.

My Tau on the other hand don't have S10 blasts lying around, so probably just drown them with shots. But a unit of 6 wraiths will take a lot of shots to put down. So I probably going to find myself in the assault :/

A vindicator will struggle to pay for itself by shooting at wraiths. It's not so bad for normal wraiths, but harvest wraiths will laugh at your s10 blast. Also it has short enough range that the wraiths are in threat range, and definite combat with you next round if you try to just move 6 and shoot again. (Or if you have some bodyguards, you run the chance of vindicating them if you shoot.)

Well a wraith will do 1.444 wounds on slugga boys, while 7 slugga boys (not on the charge) will put 0.583 wounds on the wraith*. So they lose the combat by 1.

*On the charge they put out 1.556 wounds + .259 from their sluggas, so they come out a little ahead.

EDIT: I'm full of crap. I didn't factor in RP, so the above holds only in "normal" circumstances. With RP in play, halve the number of wounds done to the Wraith. (They still lose by about 1 though.)

'Laugh at your s10 blasts' on a 40 pt model...

 greyknight12 wrote:

 TranSpyre wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.

I'm curious about this too, so here's the math on the Eversor:
Shooting - BS8, 4 poison shots: 3.67 hits, 1.83 wounds, 0.61 unsaved (3+ armor) for 0.31 after a 4+ RP.
Assault - WS8, 8 fleshbane+shred attacks on the charge: 5.33 hits, 5.18 wounds, 1.73 unsaved (3+ armor) for 0.86 after a 4+ RP.
So 1.17 wounds on average, assuming my math is correct, depending on how you like to treat partial wounds the spyder has 1-2 wounds left. Obviously luck will play a big role, but he can hurt the thing.
The bigger benefit if you can actually pull this off is that the spyder probably won't kill him, and will be stuck in combat as the wraiths move forward, losing their RP. Or the wraiths will slow down or turn back, buying you another turn to kill the other parts of the necron army and grab objectives.

The biggest difficulty of course will be getting the Eversor into combat without being shot down or assaulted by the scarabs or the wraiths themselves.

He has infiltrate, a run move, and a 3d6 charge. If anything else, he can be used as area denial.

Bharring wrote:
'Laugh at your s10 blasts' on a 40 pt model...

They will. It's a joke. Wraiths ignore terrain so they'll be spread out, meaning you'll only hit 2 at best if your opponent is halfway competent. They get a 3++, then a 4+ reanimation protocol. Your two hits turns into 0.33 wounds. Sure, it'll double them out, but for every turn you actually kill one you'll have two turns of failure.

 DarkLink wrote:

Bharring wrote:
'Laugh at your s10 blasts' on a 40 pt model...

They will. It's a joke. Wraiths ignore terrain so they'll be spread out, meaning you'll only hit 2 at best if your opponent is halfway competent. They get a 3++, then a 4+ reanimation protocol. Your two hits turns into 0.33 wounds. Sure, it'll double them out, but for every turn you actually kill one you'll have two turns of failure.

5+++

ID drops it to 6, then gets bumped up with that formation thing.

Bharring wrote:
'Laugh at your s10 blasts' on a 40 pt model...

My manticore with its d3 large blast str10 ap4 barrage ordinance templates will have no problem I assure you of hitting 4-6 wraiths and the spyder and a few scarabs each turn. And that's exactly the target this 160 point model is meant to kill.

Wraiths are nice don't get me wrong but if you max out harvest fornations in a decorian detschment. Your placing all your bets on at most 18 wraiths winning the game for you in a 1500-1850 game. That's an absurd amount of points to place in a durable unit that doesn't have a lot of offense and has enough counters to tie them up or by killing the spyder and bringing them down with weight of attacks.

I have no fear playing a wraith list against my greentide. 282 str4 ws5 atks, 28 str9 ws5 atks (one with rerolls to hit and wound), another 4 ws5 poison atks, and 5 ws6 str8 atks on the charge from a unit that can move, run, charge and reroll distance. Might as well add the 103 str 3/4 hammer of wraith atks or 108 str 4 snapshot and or shooting atks. All on a majority toughness 4, 4+, 5++, 5+++ fnp fearless unit that costs about 1k points which is still less then two harvest formations and a decorian detachment.

People talk like wraiths are some impossible to hit invis star unit. Wraithstar just isn't in the same league and cost just as much. They are good units no doubt but not something to build an entire army around.

gungo wrote:

Bharring wrote:
'Laugh at your s10 blasts' on a 40 pt model...

My manticore with its d3 large blast str10 ap4 barrage ordinance templates will have no problem I assure you of hitting 4-6 wraiths and the spyder and a few scarabs each turn. And that's exactly the target this 160 point model is meant to kill.

Wraiths are nice don't get me wrong but if you max out harvest fornations in a decorian detschment. Your placing all your bets on at most 18 wraiths winning the game for you in a 1500-1850 game. That's an absurd amount of points to place in a durable unit that doesn't have a lot of offense and has enough counters to tie them up or by killing the spyder and bringing them down with weight of attacks.

I have no fear playing a wraith list against my greentide. 282 str4 ws5 atks, 28 str9 ws5 atks (one with rerolls to hit and wound), another 4 ws5 poison atks, and 5 ws6 str8 atks on the charge from a unit that can move, run, charge and reroll distance. Might as well add the 103 str 3/4 hammer of wraith atks or 108 str 4 snapshot and or shooting atks. All on a majority toughness 4, 4+, 5++, 5+++ fnp fearless unit that costs about 1k points which is still less then two harvest formations and a decorian detachment.

People talk like wraiths are some impossible to hit invis star unit. Wraithstar just isn't in the same league and cost just as much. They are good units no doubt but not something to build an entire army around.

From my experience of playing with greentide, it's more like 50 s3 attacks + ~10-15 pk attacks. That's around 1-1.5 dead wraith per turn. Sometimes people act like you've got 100 boyz within 2' of the enemy all the time.

Well, what GW seems to be doing with both this and the Judicator formation is that the enemy should Shoot the Big Ones.

Kill the Spyder of course. He doesn't have an invulnerable save. With RP (what happened to Fleet and Shred??), it'll take about 7 or 8 lascannon-level hits to kill him (he has 3 wounds, right?), not counting any cover saves he might get.

Since your claiming str 3 your assuming that they are being charged in which case your ignoring the 108 str4 snap shots which mean that assault is coming out with more like 2 dead wraiths. If you assume the Orks are declaring a multicharge you are ignoring the how atks or the 108 regular shooting atks meaning more like 2.5-3 dead wraiths a turn. Regardless if all the orcs don't get in range on the initial assault I assure you the next players turn after consolidation into combat or with a subsequent move run charge any surviving wraiths will be completely surrounded with 2-3 layers of orcs. With any atks the wraiths get through those toughness 4, 4+, 5+++ fnp Orks only removing a 6-10 point model.
The problem with wraiths are they don't have enough offensive. Each wraith needs to kill over 7+ Orks just to make its points back. Something that's not going to happen unless each one of them gets 2+ turns in combat. They will never survive that long vs a greentide.

Alcibiades wrote:
Well, what GW seems to be doing with both this and the Judicator formation is that the enemy should Shoot the Big Ones.

Kill the Spyder of course. He doesn't have an invulnerable save. With RP (what happened to Fleet and Shred??), it'll take about 7 or 8 lascannon-level hits to kill him (he has 3 wounds, right?), not counting any cover saves he might get.

Pretty tough for a 50 pt model, eh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
Since your claiming str 3 your assuming that they are being charged in which case your ignoring the 108 str4 snap shots which mean that assault is coming out with more like 2 dead wraiths. If you assume the Orks are declaring a multicharge you are ignoring the how atks or the 108 regular shooting atks meaning more like 2.5-3 dead wraiths a turn. Regardless if all the orcs don't get in range on the initial assault I assure you the next players turn after consolidation into combat or with a subsequent move run charge any surviving wraiths will be completely surrounded with 2-3 layers of orcs. With any atks the wraiths get through those toughness 4, 4+, 5+++ fnp Orks only removing a 6-10 point model.
The problem with wraiths are they don't have enough offensive. Each wraith needs to kill 7.5 Orks just to make its points back.

And once again, you're assuming you magically have all 100+ boyz within 12' of wraiths.

But let's stick to your assumption. 108 s4 snapshots = 1 wound to a t5 model with 3+ and 4+++

They don't need enough offensive. They're tying your 1k pt unit with a 240 pt unit for like 2 turns. Now it's not that bad with a greentide if you rush the field - and that's exactly what you're supposed to do, spread out and deny him from scoring objectives. But i'd not be so optimistic about actualy killing them in no time.

Now i'm pretty frightened of a wraiths + deepstriking flayed ones combo. While wraiths hold the tide, flayed ones deepstrike with a solar staff lord and proceed to push like 30-40 wounds on the charge on their turn.

 Desubot wrote:
Is it just me or does GW just love using the words Wraith and Knights like it was going out of fashion?

Not just GW but also PP. Have a look at Cryx.

The basic questions for me are
1. Running Wraiths within a formation or not or even within a Decursion
2. What kind of HQ to take.

It's more like 1.5 wounds which is exactly why I said 2 dead wraiths. And seriously how often are you trying to charge someone beyond 12in? Here is also a tip all the characters shoot 24in shootas are free. Maybe not all of them are in range but a lot are going to be.

The beautiful thing about the assault phase is the Orks get 2 chances to kill you a every game turn as well as a consolidation move. In the highly unlikely event I allow you to charge the tide it's not going to be with you dragging that slow arse spyder around with you. So you are probably chaining your wraiths to keep the spyder in range which means your wraiths are not all in combat either or your taking your sweet time allowing the spyder to keep up. Either way your story doesn't jive.
At least don't lie about the price of wraiths if you are paying 240 points to tie up my Orks then you don't have whip coils, you don't have a spyder or scarabs in range and so you don have initiative or 4+++ RP. You are undervaluing the cost of the list and overvaluing thier offensive ability for I don't know what reason. If you try to tie up a greentide with a 240 point wraith unit I assure you those 6 wraith models are dead in less then 2 turns.

gungo wrote:
It's more like 1.5 wounds which is exactly why I said 2 dead wraiths.

108 / 6 (to-hit) / 3 (to-wound) / 3 (save) / 2 (4+++) = 1 exxactly. Which is 0.5 dead wraiths.

And i haven't seen more than like 20 boyz within 12' of a charging opponent in real games. Yep, you'll have like a couple more shoota shots from nobz but it's not making much difference, eh.

 koooaei wrote:

gungo wrote:
It's more like 1.5 wounds which is exactly why I said 2 dead wraiths.

108 / 6 (to-hit) / 3 (to-wound) / 3 (save) / 2 (4+++) = 1 exxactly. Which is 0.5 dead wraiths.

And i haven't seen more than like 20 boyz within 12' of a charging opponent in real games. Yep, you'll have like a couple more shoota shots from nobz but it's not making much difference, eh.

Now let's try some basic math whats .5 plus the 1.5 you mentioned from your supposed at most 50 str 3 and 10-15 pk atks...... 2 which is exactly what I said.

Even if I space out each boy 2in apart. If you attempt a charge from 6in out with one model . You are going to be in range of at least 3 rows of boys. Nope sorry your story still doesn't jive.

I know that the Wraith unit has a 4+ Reanimation Protocol within 12" of the Spyder, but does it have the regular 5+ RP away from it?

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:
I know that the Wraith unit has a 4+ Reanimation Protocol within 12" of the Spyder, but does it have the regular 5+ RP away from it?

No! People havent bridged that gap yet. Its kind if like assuming your grimiore going off perfectly on your daemons everytime...
Also if necrons go second then the buf is not even active on turn one.

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:
I know that the Wraith unit has a 4+ Reanimation Protocol within 12" of the Spyder, but does it have the regular 5+ RP away from it?

No it doesn't. I know the Canoptek formation that will give them a 5+++, but I think they are adding a second formation in order to boost it to 4+++.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:
I know that the Wraith unit has a 4+ Reanimation Protocol within 12" of the Spyder, but does it have the regular 5+ RP away from it?

No! People havent bridged that gap yet. Its kind if like assuming your grimiore going off perfectly on your daemons everytime...
Also if necrons go second then the buf is not even active on turn one.

As if it matters?
They are durable enough even WITHOUT the RP, they simply become unkillable with it.

There is no way you can, at T1, dedicate the needed firepower to kill a whole bunch of T5 W2 3++ units. few things have the range and the power to be a serious threat.

And its far from assuming grimiore. the book has a 1/3 chance to not only not work, but bite you in the ass, the spider just need to keep in range-a decision completely in the hands of the necron player.
Even assuming he had turn 2, the spider is still a T6 W3 3+ unit for 50 points, and that's assuming he is NOT hidden behind something (say, wraiths?). nothing in the game can kill it in a well-budget matter. when the RP turns on it becomes a TMC level of durability for the price of a single TWC.

And if he needs to slow down his wraiths, so freaking what? you still got no chance at all to kill the spider or the wraiths with most armies. the few who does won't get it done within the time limit of wraiths arrival to the enemy lines (T3 at the very worst) and those who got the firepower to hurt them, are unlikely to have a unit that can tarpit them.
Not that there is a tarpit not costing practically the same and CAN hold them off to begin with.


Leaving points aside, I'd rather face a hammernator count equal to the wraiths, spider and scarabs combined than this formation in decurion. it CANNOT be killed, it CANNOT be avoided and it CANNOT be tarpitted by any measures that do not cost far too much and make you fall behind to begin with.
It seems like airplanes are the only thing that will endure it, but airplanes do not win games, not now that the only real "air domination" army was the necrons, and their airforce got reduced to sane levels.

We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"

Don't panic! We have a stompa

I wonder how a Death Korps artillery list would fair. Don't they have the arty to turn most armies to dust?

I'll be playing the new Necrons tomorrow. If my opponent brings some Wraiths, (and at 1850, he should), I'll let you know how it goes.

I played Newcrons tonight.

Destroyers are amazing. I ran 6 Regular 6 Heavy Cult (which I'm going to start calling 6D6H). Lascannons on JSJ bodies are, in a word, amazing.

I also ran Nightbringer in a Conclave. T8 is good. Gaze is good. Eating >1000 points of shooting is not, but it does let the rest of my army get free reign of the board. If it were any army other than Tau, I don't think he would have been able to remove them before Turn 4 at the earliest.

I did the Destroyers + Stalker combo for all the rerolls - unfortunately, when it comes to moving up the field, the Stalker is much slower. I was moving up all my Destroyers to get better firing (lots of cover), and ended up leaving the Stalker behind by Turn 3. But, 2 turns of Heavy Gauss Cannons rerolling violence is great anyway.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Leaving points aside, I'd rather face a hammernator count equal to the wraiths, spider and scarabs combined than this formation in decurion. it CANNOT be killed, it CANNOT be avoided and it CANNOT be tarpitted by any measures that do not cost far too much and make you fall behind to begin with.
It seems like airplanes are the only thing that will endure it, but airplanes do not win games, not now that the only real "air domination" army was the necrons, and their airforce got reduced to sane levels.

We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"

OMG! Conscripts are so expensive, and the wraiths murder like 7 guardsmen per phase!! They can't be stopped...

But seriously. There are tarpits that can stop them cost-effectively if you've gotten to the point where you just need to throw something at them.

 BoomWolf wrote:
We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"

3+ Tyranid Flying hive tyrants with devourers will do the trick.
Eldar wave serpents + 2x wraithknight will also do the trick.
Space marine bike army + chapter masters on bike with storm shield will do the trick.


Now that theirs no more "tesla snap shot" going on, it's a lot easier to take necron on, even with the extra wraith-buffs. But if cannot handle 3 x wraith units then the will walk all over you..

Mavnas wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Leaving points aside, I'd rather face a hammernator count equal to the wraiths, spider and scarabs combined than this formation in decurion. it CANNOT be killed, it CANNOT be avoided and it CANNOT be tarpitted by any measures that do not cost far too much and make you fall behind to begin with.
It seems like airplanes are the only thing that will endure it, but airplanes do not win games, not now that the only real "air domination" army was the necrons, and their airforce got reduced to sane levels.

We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"

OMG! Conscripts are so expensive, and the wraiths murder like 7 guardsmen per phase!! They can't be stopped...

But seriously. There are tarpits that can stop them cost-effectively if you've gotten to the point where you just need to throw something at them.

Two problems with that thought:

1-not every army even has access to tarpits in general, let alone anything that can clog down the wraiths for more than a turn or at best two, and in any case conscripts do NOT tarpit them, they are a speedbump at best. without a fearless source they will just run away after a single round, and that is if they even manage to get into combat with the far faster wraiths.

2-even if a true tarpit DOES show up, the scarabs are there to either try a pre-tarpit, or bail out the wraiths. either way-advantage to the necron player.

I trust in conscripts. IG doesn't have any problems with shooting off the scarabs. While conscripts are more than point-efficient to tarpit wraiths for the whole game while still scoring points. And not to put a priest or a comissar into your conscript blob is something i'm yet to see on the table.
Unlike ork greentide that's more of a wrecking ball that costs 1k points, conscripts are a true tarpit that costs 7 times less. A wonderful unit - one of the best for what it does actually. It's only real downside is how much it costs $-wise and that you won't be able to paint them all till retirement. But the first and foremost benefit is that you can put on a comissar hat and scream "Send in the next wave!" while laughing maniacally. It'd be justified.