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Strength 10 would still insta kill them wouldn't it? A few demolisher siege cannons could theoretically ruin their day.... but if they don't they're within 24 inches at least and that's..... bad.

Yeah it's been brought up. Against harvest wraiths, you kill .22 wraiths for each wraith hit, so you need to hit between 4-5 to do any harm whatsoever, on average. When you consider the point efficiency involved, it's a pretty terrible matchup for the demolisher cannon, considering how close to a fast moving unit it has to be to fire.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Yeah it's been brought up. Against harvest wraiths, you kill .22 wraiths for each wraith hit, so you need to hit between 4-5 to do any harm whatsoever, on average. When you consider the point efficiency involved, it's a pretty terrible matchup for the demolisher cannon, considering how close to a fast moving unit it has to be to fire.

Well it's a large blast, and if you hit 3-4 Wraiths you'll likely kill at least one.

(Go Manticores!)

Alcibiades wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Yeah it's been brought up. Against harvest wraiths, you kill .22 wraiths for each wraith hit, so you need to hit between 4-5 to do any harm whatsoever, on average. When you consider the point efficiency involved, it's a pretty terrible matchup for the demolisher cannon, considering how close to a fast moving unit it has to be to fire.

Well it's a large blast, and if you hit 3-4 Wraiths you'll likely kill at least one.

(Go Manticores!)

Assuming they dont just chain gang them so you will at best hit 2

White scars should be able to give wraith grief. Any time wraith get off a charge it will just allow scars to hit n run towards softer targets or more critical ones. Grav guns will melt spiders Which should make wraith more manageable.

 schadenfreude wrote:
White scars should be able to give wraith grief. Any time wraith get off a charge it will just allow scars to hit n run towards softer targets or more critical ones. Grav guns will melt spiders Which should make wraith more manageable.

Statistically, 6 wraiths are gona kill 4 bikers on the charge. Than they'll kill 3 before you have a chance to H&R. Doesn't sound like grief.

Are we seriusly 19 pages in and yet failed to find even a dedicated counter, let alone a TAC worthy answer?

really just comes down to

1) D weapons and stomps
2) Tarpit with fearless units

thats about it

I can give many a good advice on how to fight them ineffectively.

Hey maybe that Deathwatch formation will be allowed in normal 40k...

I think GW done made a balance goof.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I still think the best counter is heavy infantry. How do 6 Wraiths do against 5 Bullgryns? (I think that's about the same points value.)

 koooaei wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
White scars should be able to give wraith grief. Any time wraith get off a charge it will just allow scars to hit n run towards softer targets or more critical ones. Grav guns will melt spiders Which should make wraith more manageable.

Statistically, 6 wraiths are gona kill 4 bikers on the charge. Than they'll kill 3 before you have a chance to H&R. Doesn't sound like grief.

Why would they stick around for a 2nd round of cc instead of h are on the necron turn.

Wraiths are good at killing bikes, but bikes are also good at killing everything else the necron player has. Also wraiths are going to struggle with a 2+3++ chapter master. Charging his squad will give them an extra 3d6" of movement on the necron turn.

Last but not least the bike army is fast and obsec out the wazoo.

Alcibiades wrote:
I think GW done made a balance goof.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I still think the best counter is heavy infantry. How do 6 Wraiths do against 5 Bullgryns? (I think that's about the same points value.)

Well, 6 wraiths statistically pull 2 rends + 6 regular wounds on the charge and 1.5 rends + 4 regular wounds without charge vs t5 ws4 models.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Are we seriusly 19 pages in and yet failed to find even a dedicated counter, let alone a TAC worthy answer?

I still think Flyrants and dakkafexes are a pretty good counter.
"Doomscythes are good against flyrants". Ok, so why exactly does that make flyrants a bad counter to Wraiths?

A counter to wraiths would be something like this:

Brood of 2 Carnifexes w/ brainleech devourers and adrenal glands
Screen them with a unit of gaunts so the carnifexes are more likely to get the bonus from AD.

Add a venomthrope and you've got yourself a decent blob in any army.

I might just be done with competitive 40k.

It really pisses me off that there's been another Wave Serpent/Riptide/Screamerstar cock up. Well, I say that, but I think GW just wants an excuse to get people into more obscure armies by giving them easy victories with broken appeal units.

I have no desire at all to see some smug, detestable bitch put a Necron army with Wraith spam on the table and wipe the floor with an army I've put months and years of consideration, ideas and effort into building. And a month down the line, competitive discussion is going to be filled with "your army sucks because it won't beat Wraith spam" and "I might take 15 of them, but Wraiths aren't broken, honest!" Que half the variation in competitive lists being destroyed again.

Now I know why Jotww was left in the Space wolf codex. lol

 BoomWolf wrote:
Are we seriusly 19 pages in and yet failed to find even a dedicated counter, let alone a TAC worthy answer?

Double chapter master white scars and iron hands bike list would be tac. Probably best to reserve most of the army and run away turbo boosting for a turn or 2 until the white scars run out of board. Slaughter anything that has obsec and necron is going to have issues.

For a pure dedicated counter Celestine and a bunch of priests inside 30 death company. Hatred, shred, FNP,rerolls to 3+ armor, hit and run, furious charge.

 schadenfreude wrote:

For a pure dedicated counter Celestine and a bunch of priests inside 30 death company. Hatred, shred, FNP,rerolls to 3+ armor, hit and run, furious charge.

Yep, countering wraiths is easy when you play with 3 times more points than your opponent

 koooaei wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
I think GW done made a balance goof.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I still think the best counter is heavy infantry. How do 6 Wraiths do against 5 Bullgryns? (I think that's about the same points value.)

Well, 6 wraiths statistically pull 2 rends + 6 regular wounds on the charge and 1.5 rends + 4 regular wounds without charge vs t5 ws4 models.

So that's 1 dead Bullgryn, leaving 4.

Bullgryns with bruteshields have a 5+ inv save. Did you factor that in?

 koooaei wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

For a pure dedicated counter Celestine and a bunch of priests inside 30 death company. Hatred, shred, FNP,rerolls to 3+ armor, hit and run, furious charge.

Yep, countering wraiths is easy when you play with 3 times more points than your opponent

I think that death star could take a charge from 18 wraiths. Incoming math hammer

72 attacks from the wraiths. 36 hits 24 wounds and 6 rends. 8 failed armor saves then 2.66 failed rerolls for 8.66 fnp. Total is 5.77 dead death company

DC with hate and shred on a post hit and run charge will average 3.333 wounds per 5 attacks and they have 5a each. It takes 11 surviving DC with hate shred to drop 6 wraiths.

For some reason, the people over at warseer don't seem all that concerned. Odd.

Alcibiades wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
I think GW done made a balance goof.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I still think the best counter is heavy infantry. How do 6 Wraiths do against 5 Bullgryns? (I think that's about the same points value.)

Well, 6 wraiths statistically pull 2 rends + 6 regular wounds on the charge and 1.5 rends + 4 regular wounds without charge vs t5 ws4 models.

So that's 1 dead Bullgryn, leaving 4.

Bullgryns with bruteshields have a 5+ inv save. Did you factor that in?

I'm not familliar with bullgryn equipment, but let's assume they have s7 3 attacks. with 4 attacks for a character.
They should have a priest in there.

Around 8.1-8.2 wounds from 4 s7 bullgryns with hatred. 2.7 after invul. If wraiths are still within a spyder's range it goes down to 1.35.

In ideal situation when priest passes rerolls for armor or further hatred and wraiths are out of spider range, bullgryns with maces and shields would be able to go toe to toe with wraiths. But they cost more and are slower. In not ideal situation, they'd loose.

I still think that the best bet as ig would be conscripts with priest/comissar.

Alcibiades wrote:
For some reason, the people over at warseer don't seem all that concerned. Odd.

HERESY. No one knows gloom and doom better than the emperor-fearing members of Dakka.

Alcibiades wrote:
For some reason, the people over at warseer don't seem all that concerned. Odd.

Because, they're not that big of a deal. If someone's dumping all their points in non-obsec units by spamming wraiths, you can outscore them and win. If they take one or two units of them, just ignore them or tarpit them; after their initial charge, they're not generating all that many hits/wounds on a unit and their CC attack is AP- outside of the occasional rend. I think they should be 1 wound, not 2 but that's just my opinion.

Of the armies that I play:

Grey Knights: Here, play with a terminator/paladin unit with sanctuary (I think that's what the power that bumps invuln is called, it's been a while) so any rends get my 4++ then the S10 hammers get to play. Meanwhile my dreadknights shunt past them and is killing the spider/support units. If they turn around to deal with the DKs, the termies kill whatever they want. Librarian with invisibility for lolz.

Dark Eldar: Dust off the wyches, they finally have a use. Here's a 150 pt witch unit that doesn't care about rending due to the 4++ in CC, if you ever kill all of them, I'll have dealt with your spiders and the rest of your army.

Ultras: Oddly, an army where a TAC list will probably do well anyway. Libby casts invis on whatever unit is assaulted by the wraiths.

Knights: Lancer with allied libby casting invis or Castigator or for real fun, a magera with IWND for the occasional hull point that gets stripped. Pity the wraiths or any CC unit that assaults an adamantine lance; sure they don't get a CC invuln but a 3-knight unit generating d3 stomps each; there's bound to be a 6 in there somewhere.

Tau: Broadsides, markerlights, plasma. This is one army that would actually have a decent shot at shooting a wraith unit to death and a unit of firewarriors get saves vs. the CC attacks sans rending.

 Desubot wrote:
really just comes down to

1) D weapons and stomps
2) Tarpit with fearless units

thats about it

If it has not been mentioned, how does 5 Heavy Bolters do?
15 S5 shots, AP4. Should clear a few wraiths in 1 shooting?
Probably clean up on the second volley?

Naked Sternies might do some real work with Hellfire rounds...

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
really just comes down to

1) D weapons and stomps
2) Tarpit with fearless units

thats about it

If it has not been mentioned, how does 5 Heavy Bolters do?
15 S5 shots, AP4. Should clear a few wraiths in 1 shooting?
Probably clean up on the second volley?

Not badly, assuming the wraith doesn't have RP (which is a killer -- shoot that damn spyder already!).

Assuming Marines

2/3 x 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/9 x 15 = 1 2/3 wounds, so a reasonable chance of a dead Wraith.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think HBs are probably one of the most effective options against Warriors, but I haven't figured it out.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
really just comes down to

1) D weapons and stomps
2) Tarpit with fearless units

thats about it

If it has not been mentioned, how does 5 Heavy Bolters do?
15 S5 shots, AP4. Should clear a few wraiths in 1 shooting?
Probably clean up on the second volley?

Wraiths: 1.66 wounds before RP. Goes down to 0.83 with 4+++.
Warriors: 6.66 wounds to warriors before rp in the open. 2.77 wounds after 4+++ with rerollable 1-s. Which goes to <2 wounds if they happen to be in cover. Basically, the same durability as wraiths before RP.
Immortals (t4, right?): 2.22 wounds before RP. Goes down to 0.92 wounds after 4+++ with rerollable 1-s
SM terminators: 1.11 wounds.

So, formation immortals with a lord nearby are indeed more durable than termies model per model against non-ap3 weapons. Interesting.

Anywayz, i'd not call regular weapons very effecting at killing necrons.

 koooaei wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

For a pure dedicated counter Celestine and a bunch of priests inside 30 death company. Hatred, shred, FNP,rerolls to 3+ armor, hit and run, furious charge.

Yep, countering wraiths is easy when you play with 3 times more points than your opponent

And also when you stick 30 DC together in a unit when the max you're allowed is 15.

We will need to wait and see but im really thinking its not JUST the wraiths everyoner should be worried about. The whole army is insanly durable to shooting and even the basic units impossible to shift in CC unless you have a dedicated cc unit.

Ive watched a few batreps soo far and played 1 game myself, all the games were slaugters. Necron wins were all decisive. Any army that does not die or only looses a few wounds to entire army worth of shooting has insane advantages as they have alot more guns available to return more fire. The losses are all based on the army outlasting the opponents.