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 BlaxicanX wrote:

The problem is that you don't have time to whittle them down. They're going to be in CC with your Riptide/Centurions/whatever your most critical unit is tying it up by turn 3 at the latest (realistically, turn 2). That means you get either one or two turns of shooting before they're stuck in.

At BS4, it takes ~27 strength 4 shots to kill one Wraith. If you want to cripple the unit then you're going to need at least 100 bolter rounds to do the job, on average. That's 50 marines rapid-firing into a single unit. That's not very realistic.

It doesn't get significantly better with higher strength units, since the strength of the weapon rises proportionally with how rare/low rof it is. It takes ~72 strength 5 shots to kill 4 wraiths (at BS4) and 44 strength 7 shots.

And this is only for one unit. If they run Wraithwing and have three units... take all the math above and multiply it by 3. Obviously, that'd be cray.

Really, there's no point in even trying to kill or maim the wraiths, imo. The only solid strategy is to work around them, and that means ignoring them with tarpit units of your own (guardsmen blobs and MSU come to mind). If you can't do that, then you're either a Tyranid penta-Tyrant list or you're screwed.

The scary thing about wraiths is that they have the ability to multi charge at a 6 man unit. Once you whittle them down to the point where they can no longer multi charge in an MSU build you have very little worry worry about. They eat 1-2 turns of shooting, whittle them down, throw stop gap units in their way who will also be firing into them, maybe you even charge them since 3 wraiths are likely to leave 1 marine alive(and with that init 5 it is unlikely that he will run away. Then he kills him on his turn and now you have an extra turn of shooting. Wraiths are scary when they hit everything at once. If you can spread them out and seperate them then they have problems.

Wraiths are countered by two things. Str 10 and wounds. Same with anything with an invul save. Once you remove AP from the equation it is simply a matter of causing wounds. There is nothing else involved(which is different from other things where AP and the like become a factor). The second thing is causing as many wounds in return for the fewest losses. Use premeasuring to your advantage. They can move through units, however they still must be able to be placed. So measure out 10 inches with a unit. Now they cant be placed one inch away from your unit and still maintain coherency. So now they are losing 2-3 inches of movement. Sure that unit is dead but their threat range is reduced and you buy yourself another turn.

Pdogg614 wrote:
We will need to wait and see but im really thinking its not JUST the wraiths everyoner should be worried about. The whole army is insanly durable to shooting and even the basic units impossible to shift in CC unless you have a dedicated cc unit.

Ive watched a few batreps soo far and played 1 game myself, all the games were slaugters. Necron wins were all decisive. Any army that does not die or only looses a few wounds to entire army worth of shooting has insane advantages as they have alot more guns available to return more fire. The losses are all based on the army outlasting the opponents.

As a Blood Angel player this has really annoyed me. Our codex was just like most of the other recent codices where we were brought into line and the one thing we could have done with would have been something to give us a bit more survivability for jump pack troops, like a 4++ feel no pain or something. The very next release after us, this Necron release and I find that the Necrons get this ridiculous survivability with RP and the Wraiths becoming T5 to go with their 3++ save.

You mean really? Mephiston has to be brought back down to T5 because T6 for him is just too much but then you're going to have a whole unit of T5 wraiths with 3++ running about the table. Infuriating.

I'm curious what my old standby assault henchmen squad with xenos inquisitor will do with rad and psychotrope grenades. Anyone know the mathammer on that one?

Necrons can still be swept Don't hesitate to take advantage of that fact.

We are talking about wraiths a lot and I admit they are powerful. However they must be taken in the context of the list. Lets see what the rest of the list is made up of before we get too worried.

Would pyskers be a possible answer?

I seem to recall a battle report by Jy2 a few months back where a marine player was able to decimate all of his wraiths in a single turn due to being able to reroll his hits and wounds while also forcing the wraiths to reroll their saves.

Granted, the wraiths have improved since the last codex, but the theory should still be sound.

omerakk wrote:
Would pyskers be a possible answer?

I seem to recall a battle report by Jy2 a few months back where a marine player was able to decimate all of his wraiths in a single turn due to being able to reroll his hits and wounds while also forcing the wraiths to reroll their saves.

Granted, the wraiths have improved since the last codex, but the theory should still be sound.

Can I ask what powers/abilities were in play here?

 Leth wrote:
Necrons can still be swept Don't hesitate to take advantage of that fact.

We are talking about wraiths a lot and I admit they are powerful. However they must be taken in the context of the list. Lets see what the rest of the list is made up of before we get too worried.

Besides the fact that wraiths are fearless?

Na honestly non Harvest Wraiths are just tougher then the previous codex and got bumped up to reletivity again because its VERY hard to double them down.

Add in RP 4+++ then they get pants. like seriously pants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthOvious wrote:

omerakk wrote:
Would pyskers be a possible answer?

I seem to recall a battle report by Jy2 a few months back where a marine player was able to decimate all of his wraiths in a single turn due to being able to reroll his hits and wounds while also forcing the wraiths to reroll their saves.

Granted, the wraiths have improved since the last codex, but the theory should still be sound.

Can I ask what powers/abilities were in play here?

Sounds like old Misfortune

 Desubot wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Necrons can still be swept Don't hesitate to take advantage of that fact.

We are talking about wraiths a lot and I admit they are powerful. However they must be taken in the context of the list. Lets see what the rest of the list is made up of before we get too worried.

Besides the fact that wraiths are fearless?

Na honestly non Harvest Wraiths are just tougher then the previous codex and got bumped up to reletivity again because its VERY hard to double them down.

Add in RP 4+++ then they get pants. like seriously pants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthOvious wrote:

omerakk wrote:
Would pyskers be a possible answer?

I seem to recall a battle report by Jy2 a few months back where a marine player was able to decimate all of his wraiths in a single turn due to being able to reroll his hits and wounds while also forcing the wraiths to reroll their saves.

Granted, the wraiths have improved since the last codex, but the theory should still be sound.

Can I ask what powers/abilities were in play here?

Sounds like old Misfortune

I do think good old guide and doom will still be great in the eldar book. Thats what my next list will rolling on to try for as last game what i tried with no psyker support did not work AT ALL lol.

 Desubot wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Necrons can still be swept Don't hesitate to take advantage of that fact.

We are talking about wraiths a lot and I admit they are powerful. However they must be taken in the context of the list. Lets see what the rest of the list is made up of before we get too worried.

Besides the fact that they are fearless?

Na honestly non Harvest Wraiths are just tougher then the previous codex and got bumped up to reletivity again because its VERY hard to double them down.

Add in RP 4+++ then they get pants. like seriously pants.

He was talking about the rest of their infantry actually, which definitely is the most efficient way to kill them.

19 pages yet still nobody has actually posted an 1850 Necron list spamming these wraiths. Wraiths are more durable, yet no more killy then they were a month ago when they had access to double the firepower at least for support. Why all of a sudden are wraiths a problem again? My marines didn't have an issue beating them on missions before and they didn't have the means to efficiently kill T4 wraiths then. All I see is a distinct lack of MSS and a warscythe, the two things they leaned on in order to scare away units like wraith knights.

If you want 4+++ wraiths you need a decurion which has massive limitations on what you can take in support, want tesla barges? Sorry, you need two and a DDarc, only 400pts. Gone are the days of old where 3 AB's only set you back a measly 270 and had better firepower.

This discussion is just going in circles where someone posts a unit that can hold them up or kill a few, and some smart ass just says "But not in a decurion, or better yet with cryptek support!" Yea, now find me points.

Decrurions, harvests, D-lords and crypteks are all going to add up so incredibly fast I'd be impressed if you crammed 18 actual wraiths in and didn't leave something naked and useless.

No, it goes in circles where people come up with ways to hold them or kill a few, then some smartass points out that the 'solution' costs twice the points, and doesn't hold them for long or kill many of them *without* the harvest.

 DarthOvious wrote:

Pdogg614 wrote:
We will need to wait and see but im really thinking its not JUST the wraiths everyoner should be worried about. The whole army is insanly durable to shooting and even the basic units impossible to shift in CC unless you have a dedicated cc unit.

Ive watched a few batreps soo far and played 1 game myself, all the games were slaugters. Necron wins were all decisive. Any army that does not die or only looses a few wounds to entire army worth of shooting has insane advantages as they have alot more guns available to return more fire. The losses are all based on the army outlasting the opponents.

As a Blood Angel player this has really annoyed me. Our codex was just like most of the other recent codices where we were brought into line and the one thing we could have done with would have been something to give us a bit more survivability for jump pack troops, like a 4++ feel no pain or something. The very next release after us, this Necron release and I find that the Necrons get this ridiculous survivability with RP and the Wraiths becoming T5 to go with their 3++ save.

You mean really? Mephiston has to be brought back down to T5 because T6 for him is just too much but then you're going to have a whole unit of T5 wraiths with 3++ running about the table. Infuriating.

I feel ya my fellow son of sanguinius. Nothing more painful than being the codex RIGHT BEFORE a super OP codex.

It can take an army worth of fire power to down a harvest spyder, which is about the cost of THREE ASSAULT MARINES. Undercosted much? And it's not like the rest of the formation is a tax. The wraiths are obviously awesome, and if you're going to have a spyder, you may as well give him a little squad of scarabs to make new guys for.

I don't think I've ever seen a more obviously OP from the word go codex.

Bharring wrote:
No, it goes in circles where people come up with ways to hold them or kill a few, then some smartass points out that the 'solution' costs twice the points, and doesn't hold them for long or kill many of them *without* the harvest.

Imperial Knights and Super Heavies are still the best choices. Twice points sometimes sure but then they will kill more then just 6 wraiths.

 Desubot wrote:


Sounds like old Misfortune

I was thinking that it sounded like an old power that's not around anymore. The re-rolling saves part doesn't really apply anymore.

My point was that what made wraiths so scary was not their CC ability, it was their CC ability supported by super durable crazy output shooting. Without the other parts they are not as scary.

Tesla hits as well as increased costs on annhilation barges/scythes means that the lists are going to need to change.

The reanimation protocols one is mandatory additional points that hinge on one model being in range. Once again not too worried.

and yes I was talking about necrons being able to be swept in regards to the individual above me posting about their durability being obnoxious.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Necrons can still be swept Don't hesitate to take advantage of that fact.

We are talking about wraiths a lot and I admit they are powerful. However they must be taken in the context of the list. Lets see what the rest of the list is made up of before we get too worried.

Besides the fact that they are fearless?

Na honestly non Harvest Wraiths are just tougher then the previous codex and got bumped up to reletivity again because its VERY hard to double them down.

Add in RP 4+++ then they get pants. like seriously pants.

He was talking about the rest of their infantry actually, which definitely is the most efficient way to kill them.

19 pages yet still nobody has actually posted an 1850 Necron list spamming these wraiths. Wraiths are more durable, yet no more killy then they were a month ago when they had access to double the firepower at least for support. Why all of a sudden are wraiths a problem again? My marines didn't have an issue beating them on missions before and they didn't have the means to efficiently kill T4 wraiths then. All I see is a distinct lack of MSS and a warscythe, the two things they leaned on in order to scare away units like wraith knights.

If you want 4+++ wraiths you need a decurion which has massive limitations on what you can take in support, want tesla barges? Sorry, you need two and a DDarc, only 400pts. Gone are the days of old where 3 AB's only set you back a measly 270 and had better firepower.

This discussion is just going in circles where someone posts a unit that can hold them up or kill a few, and some smart ass just says "But not in a decurion, or better yet with cryptek support!" Yea, now find me points.

Decrurions, harvests, D-lords and crypteks are all going to add up so incredibly fast I'd be impressed if you crammed 18 actual wraiths in and didn't leave something naked and useless.

Of course Necron players will take them. They took them under the old codex and they will take them now when they cost the same for a model with whip coils but are now tougher at T5. Why do you think lots of chaos players play Nurgle? Cause getting that T5 is brilliant. You are resistant to ID by a lot more things now. i.e. Powerfists, Meltas, Lascannons, Battle Cannons, etc, etc. Also lets not forget that the Marine staple in their codex is T5 bikes. White Scars also show us why cheap T5 is a brilliant option.

 Leth wrote:
My point was that what made wraiths so scary was not their CC ability, it was their CC ability supported by super durable crazy output shooting. Without the other parts they are not as scary.

Tesla hits as well as increased costs on annhilation barges/scythes means that the lists are going to need to change.

The reanimation protocols one is mandatory additional points that hinge on one model being in range. Once again not too worried.

and yes I was talking about necrons being able to be swept in regards to the individual above me posting about their durability being obnoxious.

I think you've got a wrong impression about newcron level of shootiness. It's roughly the same as before with just the change to how often they die in return.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

Pdogg614 wrote:
We will need to wait and see but im really thinking its not JUST the wraiths everyoner should be worried about. The whole army is insanly durable to shooting and even the basic units impossible to shift in CC unless you have a dedicated cc unit.

Ive watched a few batreps soo far and played 1 game myself, all the games were slaugters. Necron wins were all decisive. Any army that does not die or only looses a few wounds to entire army worth of shooting has insane advantages as they have alot more guns available to return more fire. The losses are all based on the army outlasting the opponents.

As a Blood Angel player this has really annoyed me. Our codex was just like most of the other recent codices where we were brought into line and the one thing we could have done with would have been something to give us a bit more survivability for jump pack troops, like a 4++ feel no pain or something. The very next release after us, this Necron release and I find that the Necrons get this ridiculous survivability with RP and the Wraiths becoming T5 to go with their 3++ save.

You mean really? Mephiston has to be brought back down to T5 because T6 for him is just too much but then you're going to have a whole unit of T5 wraiths with 3++ running about the table. Infuriating.

I feel ya my fellow son of sanguinius. Nothing more painful than being the codex RIGHT BEFORE a super OP codex.

It can take an army worth of fire power to down a harvest spyder, which is about the cost of THREE ASSAULT MARINES. Undercosted much? And it's not like the rest of the formation is a tax. The wraiths are obviously awesome, and if you're going to have a spyder, you may as well give him a little squad of scarabs to make new guys for.

I don't think I've ever seen a more obviously OP from the word go codex.

Same as last time as well. We got shafted shortly afterwards back in 5th edition when our codex was released. Are we still being punished for Rhino rush as those years back in 3rd?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:
My point was that what made wraiths so scary was not their CC ability, it was their CC ability supported by super durable crazy output shooting. Without the other parts they are not as scary.

Tesla hits as well as increased costs on annhilation barges/scythes means that the lists are going to need to change.

The reanimation protocols one is mandatory additional points that hinge on one model being in range. Once again not too worried.

and yes I was talking about necrons being able to be swept in regards to the individual above me posting about their durability being obnoxious.

Well lets see, it takes 90 Bolter shots in total to wipe out a squad of 10 Necron warriors. So what do you think?

90 shots - 60 hits - 30 wounds - 15 failed saves - 10 failed RP's.

Even if I was to assume that my tactical squad was rapid firing every turn at this squads it would still take me 4 and a half turns to kill them all providing I don't lose any myself.

And the hilarious thing is that 10 Warriors cost 130pts.


EDIT: Now I've just worked out it takes 135 bolter shots to kill 10 Immortals which is 170 point unit.

And that's assuming they're warriors NOT from a decurion or the shield of Baal detachment OR a standalone reclamation legion within 12" of their overlord for better RP results.

Meanwhile, I have now just worked out that it takes around 67 Gauss Blaster shots to wipe out a full squad of tacticals. However shhhh, don't tell anyone it's supposed to be a secret and we are not supposed to be scared of this new Necron codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:
And that's assuming they're warriors NOT from a decurion or the shield of Baal detachment OR a standalone reclamation legion within 12" of their overlord for better RP results.

Correct, this is using the codex entry and the standard RP of 5++

Aside from Wraiths or the Decurion formation, the Necron codex looks quite balanced at first glance.

Bharring wrote:
Aside from Wraiths or the Decurion formation, the Necron codex looks quite balanced at first glance.

I'm not sure. They look like an uphill battle to me. I'll need to see how they work out when playing against them.

Or as has been stated you could not try to out shoot someone who is better and take advantage of where you are better. Get in to assault win by 2-3 and then watch the entire formation get swept.

Or in your decurion formation that is apparently the default formation get into combat on an objective and watch our OS unit win the game.

But hey, I can create vacuum situations that reinforce my point as well!!

 DarthOvious wrote:
[

Well lets see, it takes 90 Bolter shots in total to wipe out a squad of 10 Necron warriors. So what do you think?

90 shots - 60 hits - 30 wounds - 15 failed saves - 10 failed RP's.

This is exactly what it takes to wipe out a squad of 10 tactical marines.

90 shots - 60 hits - 30 wounds - 10 failed saves

 Leth wrote:
Or as has been stated you could not try to out shoot someone who is better and take advantage of where you are better. Get in to assault win by 2-3 and then watch the entire formation get swept.

Of course lets be smart about our targets when we do this because those wraiths we were talking about take out 3 normal marines or 2.33 Death Company with their 18 attacks base without charging. So I'm assuming you're saying that we should charge the Warriors or Immortals instead?

Or in your decurion formation that is apparently the default formation get into combat on an objective and watch our OS unit win the game.

I could take an objective secured with my tactical squads that die 3 a turn when in combat against wraiths with 18 attacks. However I was looking forward to using BSF so I could get that +1I to go with my furious charge instead.

But hey, I can create vacuum situations that reinforce my point as well!!

OK, well lets do a troop vs troop basis then in assault. 10 tacticals vs 10 Immortals.

10 Tacticals - 12 attacks (9 normal marines and 3 for the sergeant) - 6 hits - 3 wounds - 1 failed save - 0.67 failed RP's.

9 Immortals - 9 attacks - 4.5 hits - 2.25 wounds - 0.75 failed saves.

The marines of course will hit a bit harder if they take a power weapon on the sergeant. So if this happens then he will cause 0.5 wounds himself and the rest of unit will cause 0.5 wounds. So basically 11 wound in total and therefore the Immortals will still cause 0.75 wounds back.

A unit of 10 Immortals are 170 points and a unit of Tactical Marines with a Veteran Sergeant for his base 2 attacks characteristic and power weapon is 150 points.

So the tacticals do have a slight advantage in close combat against the Immortals, but considering that Immortals have Ld10 then a minus 1 to their break test isn't really going to do a lot. Also considering that these very same Immortals are twice as effective as shooting as this same Tactical squad then I not seeing how it will be a 10 vs 10 situation when it comes to the crunch to begin with.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alcibiades wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
[

Well lets see, it takes 90 Bolter shots in total to wipe out a squad of 10 Necron warriors. So what do you think?

90 shots - 60 hits - 30 wounds - 15 failed saves - 10 failed RP's.

This is exactly what it takes to wipe out a squad of 10 tactical marines.

90 shots - 60 hits - 30 wounds - 10 failed saves

Yes indeed, but Warriors are cheaper and have their gauss special rule on top with their guns.

Warriors are 1pt cheaper.
For 1pt SM get grenades ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics (Furious Charge for BA, Counter Attack/Acute Senses for SW, Stubborn or domething for DA), +2 I, -2 Ld, no Gauss and more options.

That's quite a bit for 1 pt

It seems that you guys are missing the point I am trying to make.

No unit operates on its own, you have to look at it in the context of the entire army.

Sure I could take individual units and transplant them into other armies and all of a sudden they seem super powerful in comparison. However you have to look at the situation as a whole.

People forget from having marines all the time but fear/leadership mechanics are actually pretty significant. Sure wraiths ignore it, however the majority of a necron list does not. Lets see a FULL necron wraith list that people might expect to see and we can talk about that instead of one unit versus one unit in a vacuum

Alcibiades wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
[

Well lets see, it takes 90 Bolter shots in total to wipe out a squad of 10 Necron warriors. So what do you think?

90 shots - 60 hits - 30 wounds - 15 failed saves - 10 failed RP's.

This is exactly what it takes to wipe out a squad of 10 tactical marines.

90 shots - 60 hits - 30 wounds - 10 failed saves

Too bad Xenos never seem to be firing bolters at me.

So it's been pointed that Wraiths don't actually have an especially impressive damage output. Their real strength lies in being a tarpit counter to the opposition's big nasty units. To get to that stage, it will also cost them a lot of points (368 points with 6 wraiths and whip coils in a Harvest).

The solution to a tarpit, is another tarpit. The way to beat it is to find a way to tarpit the wraiths with fewer points and then focus on the rest of the army.

So, what can tarpit the wraiths for fewer than 368 points? (and of course don't forget to kill the Spyder to take the Wraiths down a peg, just as you would kill Markerlights in a Tau force first).
-Carefully placed speed bumps. Sacrifice a cheap infantry squad every other turn or two.
-High toughness MC with an invul save.
-Any unit with a large volume of wounds with an invul save.

And finally, make use of high AV or flyer transports to get your units to where they need to be before the Wraiths can scratch at them.
Most importantly, keep your important unit that the wraiths would want to tarpit out of harm's way in a high AV transport, in a flyer, or in reserves, until your own counter-tarpit has tarpitted the wraiths.

More damn tar pits than La Brea.

Though he didn't bring any wraiths, I did play my local Necron player on Sunday with my Orks. I brought a pretty unconventional list. Brought a Ork Hoard and Waaagh detachment, filling up my heavy support with 6 Kanz, 2 Deff Dreads and 1 Morkanaught. Then I had a defense line with Shoota Boyz and a Shokk Attack Gun, with grots running around backfield to hold objectives for me. A squad of Tankbustas and two large squads of Boyz, each with a Painboy and Mega Warboss in them.

He brought and odd list himself, mostly destroyers, some tomb blades, a Night Bringer, Scythe with an Overlord/Destroyer Overloard and some Immortals in it, and two Arks full of Warriors.

He played the shooting game, while I played the objective game. I will say, that the Necrons are insanely durable. But over the course of the game, he was having a terrible time actually hurting much I had. Even with the wound/glance on 6 rule, it took him until turn 5 to finish wiping out my Kanz, which he dedicated SO MUCH firepower into them from the destroyers and the tomb blades, even the Arks.

My Dreads tangled with his Night Bringer. Only lost 2 HP on one dread and it got immobilized, while the other was unharmed and they sliced the beast to pieces. My fresh Dread than turned on the Arks, burning some crew inside before wiping out the Ark from existence.

My Kanz spent most of the game in a shooting match with the Destroyers. Grotzookas vs Gauss. In his defense, he did roll pretty poor when it came to offense, but VERY well for defense, meaning he lost a LOT less in terms of model count than I did, despite serious pummeling from Grotzookas and my Morkanaught's Kustom Mega Kannon, Shokk Attack Gun, and the Tankbustas.

I won by points, 7 to 1. Newcrons are hard to remove, but they don't seem to do as much damage as I would have thought, even with their massed volumes of fire.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Warriors are 1pt cheaper.
For 1pt SM get grenades ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics (Furious Charge for BA, Counter Attack/Acute Senses for SW, Stubborn or domething for DA), +2 I, -2 Ld, no Gauss and more options.

That's quite a bit for 1 pt

Yes we get grenades, I suppose that is good, but then again the instances where we use grenades is usually to try and glance a vehicle or wound a high T creature. Gauss is actually quite good at doing that already and can glance AV14 which grenades will not do. I'm not sure where I stand with ATSKNF vs Ld 10. On one hand, Space Marines will always regroup but on the other hand it's more difficult for Necrons to run off the table to begin with.

As for chapter tactics I will concede that. It is worth the extra point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
[

Well lets see, it takes 90 Bolter shots in total to wipe out a squad of 10 Necron warriors. So what do you think?

90 shots - 60 hits - 30 wounds - 15 failed saves - 10 failed RP's.

This is exactly what it takes to wipe out a squad of 10 tactical marines.

90 shots - 60 hits - 30 wounds - 10 failed saves

Too bad Xenos never seem to be firing bolters at me.

In this case the Gauss Flayer is the same strength and AP. It's the Gauss rule which they have on top of us in addition.