Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
changemod wrote: And the preview in the White Dwarf had an example Decurion with a unit of two.
I know there's a tendency on here to assume the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing, but there's nothing actually listing a max, just a lack of the word "unit" in the base requirements box.
That and under the "Adaptive Subroutines" ability listed under the formation it also implies the unit has a single spyder, "...The canoptek spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects..."
"Adaptive Subroutines" refers to the spyder in the formation in the singular, not giving an impression of the possibility of multiple spyders. Although we are talking about GW here so this could just be incompetence in intention.
changemod wrote: And the preview in the White Dwarf had an example Decurion with a unit of two.
I know there's a tendency on here to assume the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing, but there's nothing actually listing a max, just a lack of the word "unit" in the base requirements box.
That and under the "Adaptive Subroutines" ability listed under the formation it also implies the unit has a single spyder, "...The canoptek spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects..."
"Adaptive Subroutines" refers to the spyder in the formation in the singular, not giving an impression of the possibility of multiple spyders. Although we are talking about GW here so this could just be incompetence in intention.
Point me to the army list entry I am supposed to use for the canoptek spyder.
changemod wrote: And the preview in the White Dwarf had an example Decurion with a unit of two.
I know there's a tendency on here to assume the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing, but there's nothing actually listing a max, just a lack of the word "unit" in the base requirements box.
That and under the "Adaptive Subroutines" ability listed under the formation it also implies the unit has a single spyder, "...The canoptek spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects..."
"Adaptive Subroutines" refers to the spyder in the formation in the singular, not giving an impression of the possibility of multiple spyders. Although we are talking about GW here so this could just be incompetence in intention.
Point me to the army list entry I am supposed to use for the canoptek spyder.
"Canoptek Spyder" is the name of the model. It has a statline and rules.
I'd go with the actual rules instead of artwork and photographs.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
changemod wrote: And the preview in the White Dwarf had an example Decurion with a unit of two.
I know there's a tendency on here to assume the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing, but there's nothing actually listing a max, just a lack of the word "unit" in the base requirements box.
That and under the "Adaptive Subroutines" ability listed under the formation it also implies the unit has a single spyder, "...The canoptek spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects..."
"Adaptive Subroutines" refers to the spyder in the formation in the singular, not giving an impression of the possibility of multiple spyders. Although we are talking about GW here so this could just be incompetence in intention.
Point me to the army list entry I am supposed to use for the canoptek spyder.
"Canoptek Spyder" is the name of the model. It has a statline and rules.
Formations use full army list entries. Where do I find the full army list entry?
Yeah I mean, the codex clearly says "1 Spyder". Not 1 unit of Spyders. Saying there's no such thing as just 1 Spyder, but rather a unit of only a single Spyder, is semantic at best. The codex says that the formation consists of exactly one. I see the artwork which is confusing and possibly RAI, but in no way is that currently RAW, nor is a white dwarf example a basis for rules.
Did GW intend for a unit of Spyders? Possibly. I would venture so far as to say probably. Would I care if someone took this stance in a game against me? Not even kind of. Would I expect to be able to field this in a tournament? Not even kind of
luke1705 wrote: Yeah I mean, the codex clearly says "1 Spyder". Not 1 unit of Spyders. Saying there's no such thing as just 1 Spyder, but rather a unit of only a single Spyder, is semantic at best. The codex says that the formation consists of exactly one. I see the artwork which is confusing and possibly RAI, but in no way is that currently RAW, nor is a white dwarf example a basis for rules.
Did GW intend for a unit of Spyders? Possibly. I would venture so far as to say probably. Would I care if someone took this stance in a game against me? Not even kind of. Would I expect to be able to field this in a tournament? Not even kind of
There's a big hole. Formations pull in units and the Canoptek Harvest doesn't point to a unit. The army list entry for our best guess at a Canoptek Spyder is the unit of Canoptek Spyders army list entry.
The most RAW read would be that you could add Spyders to the 1 Canoptek Spyder but they wouldn't benefit from the formation benefits.
On another topic, I'm thinking of fielding a Destroyer Cult. I love Destroyers, and I love the formation, even without the Decurion bonus.
My thought is, what am I doing with the Lord? His job last edition was to attach to a fast squad (Wraiths, occasionally Scarabs or Praetorians) and bring a Warscythe/MSS/PE.
Now, he can still kinda do that (again with coherency shenanigans), but my question is, what does he bring to the Destroyer Cult specifically? He's not a shooting powerhouse to help them kill from a range, they don't want to be near Assault (though he can help them out if they do get there), and his PE is wasted with them.
So my current thought is to make him a Wargear caddy for them. Bring a Nightmare Shroud + Phase Shifter so he can tank the AP2/AP3 attacks. Bring a Res Orb/Orb of Eternity to help RP. Bring Solar Pulse for pseudo-Invis. GotC can be a good way to dissuade Terminators from your back line. Heck, even Veil of Darkness could be good since it can get you out of Assaults. All of these have uses to keep a full Destroyer Squad alive (already a tough nugget to crack), or to protect that important 3-man Heavy Destroyer squad.
What do you guys think? If he's no longer a Wraith wrangler, what should the DLord be doing now? Sticking him with Lychguard or Flayed ones for the extra power and PE is also good, but what about if you're not taking an Assault unit but have the Destroyer Cult?
Requizen wrote: On another topic, I'm thinking of fielding a Destroyer Cult. I love Destroyers, and I love the formation, even without the Decurion bonus.
My thought is, what am I doing with the Lord? His job last edition was to attach to a fast squad (Wraiths, occasionally Scarabs or Praetorians) and bring a Warscythe/MSS/PE.
Now, he can still kinda do that (again with coherency shenanigans), but my question is, what does he bring to the Destroyer Cult specifically? He's not a shooting powerhouse to help them kill from a range, they don't want to be near Assault (though he can help them out if they do get there), and his PE is wasted with them.
So my current thought is to make him a Wargear caddy for them. Bring a Nightmare Shroud + Phase Shifter so he can tank the AP2/AP3 attacks. Bring a Res Orb/Orb of Eternity to help RP. Bring Solar Pulse for pseudo-Invis. GotC can be a good way to dissuade Terminators from your back line. Heck, even Veil of Darkness could be good since it can get you out of Assaults. All of these have uses to keep a full Destroyer Squad alive (already a tough nugget to crack), or to protect that important 3-man Heavy Destroyer squad.
What do you guys think? If he's no longer a Wraith wrangler, what should the DLord be doing now? Sticking him with Lychguard or Flayed ones for the extra power and PE is also good, but what about if you're not taking an Assault unit but have the Destroyer Cult?
The D. Lord works really well with Deathmarks and can get you a reliable 2nd turn charge with him.
He's a nasty piece of work on his own, being able to possibly deep strike during your opponents turn then charge in your own is pretty nice and I think people forget you can do that.
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
Yeah, my Destroyer Cult thought is to mix it with a Triarch formation and a Canoptek formation. Wraith wrangle, and have a fair number of Destroyers stick near the Stalker until it pops.
Please show me where this is RAW. Why can't a formation call for something on a model by model basis? Formations often call for exactly one model in single model units. Is it really so far-fetched to think that they can do this for units that are not always a single model?
Look, again, I'm not claiming that this is RAI. I don't know if it is, nor is it a particularly big deal to me. But I don't understand the chasm that people feel like they have to leap across to understand that this at least APPEARS to be asking (and mandating) that you take one and only one Spyder for this formation.
From a game balance perspective (haha) this also makes sense. Say you take 3 Spyders. Do wraiths get the benefits until Spyder A dies? Spyder B? The whole squad? The rules governing the duration of the effects do not seem to make an allowance in their conjugations for multiple Spyders either. At the very least, they give no indication as to what would happen in these cases (which would presumably happen just about every game if you had multiple Spyders in the unit)
Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread about tactics. Wraiths are awesome! and FWIW, I have two Triarch stalkers on the way that I plan to model for disadvantage to use as Spyders in the Canoptek harvest (in two separate formations, I promise! )
Requizen wrote: On another topic, I'm thinking of fielding a Destroyer Cult. I love Destroyers, and I love the formation, even without the Decurion bonus.
My thought is, what am I doing with the Lord? His job last edition was to attach to a fast squad (Wraiths, occasionally Scarabs or Praetorians) and bring a Warscythe/MSS/PE.
Now, he can still kinda do that (again with coherency shenanigans), but my question is, what does he bring to the Destroyer Cult specifically? He's not a shooting powerhouse to help them kill from a range, they don't want to be near Assault (though he can help them out if they do get there), and his PE is wasted with them.
So my current thought is to make him a Wargear caddy for them. Bring a Nightmare Shroud + Phase Shifter so he can tank the AP2/AP3 attacks. Bring a Res Orb/Orb of Eternity to help RP. Bring Solar Pulse for pseudo-Invis. GotC can be a good way to dissuade Terminators from your back line. Heck, even Veil of Darkness could be good since it can get you out of Assaults. All of these have uses to keep a full Destroyer Squad alive (already a tough nugget to crack), or to protect that important 3-man Heavy Destroyer squad.
What do you guys think? If he's no longer a Wraith wrangler, what should the DLord be doing now? Sticking him with Lychguard or Flayed ones for the extra power and PE is also good, but what about if you're not taking an Assault unit but have the Destroyer Cult?
He's a perfectly fine Wraith wrangler.
He may be the best wraith wrangler there is. Wouldn't surprise me to see wraithwing still using him, even at the tournament level
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/03 22:44:17
Requizen wrote: On another topic, I'm thinking of fielding a Destroyer Cult. I love Destroyers, and I love the formation, even without the Decurion bonus.
My thought is, what am I doing with the Lord? His job last edition was to attach to a fast squad (Wraiths, occasionally Scarabs or Praetorians) and bring a Warscythe/MSS/PE.
Now, he can still kinda do that (again with coherency shenanigans), but my question is, what does he bring to the Destroyer Cult specifically? He's not a shooting powerhouse to help them kill from a range, they don't want to be near Assault (though he can help them out if they do get there), and his PE is wasted with them.
So my current thought is to make him a Wargear caddy for them. Bring a Nightmare Shroud + Phase Shifter so he can tank the AP2/AP3 attacks. Bring a Res Orb/Orb of Eternity to help RP. Bring Solar Pulse for pseudo-Invis. GotC can be a good way to dissuade Terminators from your back line. Heck, even Veil of Darkness could be good since it can get you out of Assaults. All of these have uses to keep a full Destroyer Squad alive (already a tough nugget to crack), or to protect that important 3-man Heavy Destroyer squad.
What do you guys think? If he's no longer a Wraith wrangler, what should the DLord be doing now? Sticking him with Lychguard or Flayed ones for the extra power and PE is also good, but what about if you're not taking an Assault unit but have the Destroyer Cult?
Put him in a unit of 20 flayed ones and give him a solar staff. Deep strike, pop the staff, survive, eat. He can even split off to harass another unit. All the while, your Destroyers are destroying.
Please show me where this is RAW. Why can't a formation call for something on a model by model basis? Formations often call for exactly one model in single model units. Is it really so far-fetched to think that they can do this for units that are not always a single model?
Look, again, I'm not claiming that this is RAI. I don't know if it is, nor is it a particularly big deal to me. But I don't understand the chasm that people feel like they have to leap across to understand that this at least APPEARS to be asking (and mandating) that you take one and only one Spyder for this formation.
From a game balance perspective (haha) this also makes sense. Say you take 3 Spyders. Do wraiths get the benefits until Spyder A dies? Spyder B? The whole squad? The rules governing the duration of the effects do not seem to make an allowance in their conjugations for multiple Spyders either. At the very least, they give no indication as to what would happen in these cases (which would presumably happen just about every game if you had multiple Spyders in the unit)
Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread about tactics. Wraiths are awesome! and FWIW, I have two Triarch stalkers on the way that I plan to model for disadvantage to use as Spyders in the Canoptek harvest (in two separate formations, I promise! )
Requizen wrote: On another topic, I'm thinking of fielding a Destroyer Cult. I love Destroyers, and I love the formation, even without the Decurion bonus.
My thought is, what am I doing with the Lord? His job last edition was to attach to a fast squad (Wraiths, occasionally Scarabs or Praetorians) and bring a Warscythe/MSS/PE.
Now, he can still kinda do that (again with coherency shenanigans), but my question is, what does he bring to the Destroyer Cult specifically? He's not a shooting powerhouse to help them kill from a range, they don't want to be near Assault (though he can help them out if they do get there), and his PE is wasted with them.
So my current thought is to make him a Wargear caddy for them. Bring a Nightmare Shroud + Phase Shifter so he can tank the AP2/AP3 attacks. Bring a Res Orb/Orb of Eternity to help RP. Bring Solar Pulse for pseudo-Invis. GotC can be a good way to dissuade Terminators from your back line. Heck, even Veil of Darkness could be good since it can get you out of Assaults. All of these have uses to keep a full Destroyer Squad alive (already a tough nugget to crack), or to protect that important 3-man Heavy Destroyer squad.
What do you guys think? If he's no longer a Wraith wrangler, what should the DLord be doing now? Sticking him with Lychguard or Flayed ones for the extra power and PE is also good, but what about if you're not taking an Assault unit but have the Destroyer Cult?
He's a perfectly fine Wraith wrangler.
He may be the best wraith wrangler there is. Wouldn't surprise me to see wraithwing still using him, even at the tournament level
Spoiler:
Formations
Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units
renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium.
Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will
need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to
describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific
units together. Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List
Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules
that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains
its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation.
Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound
armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part
of the Formation.
Allowing multiple spyders in the canoptek formation would be an awful idea from a design POV, as it makes the achilles' heel of the formation go away. Hence I doubt multiple spyders are intended.
A lot of formations don't have an Achilles' Heel, more that you get a fluffy benefit for setting up that part of your army in a fluffy manner. However, that isn't really relevant.
Currently you can only take one Spyder according to the rules, but I think GW should talk about it due to so much conflicting information elsewhere in the book.
Nilok wrote: A lot of formations don't have an Achilles' Heel, more that you get a fluffy benefit for setting up that part of your army in a fluffy manner. However, that isn't really relevant.
Currently you can only take one Spyder according to the rules, but I think GW should talk about it due to so much conflicting information elsewhere in the book.
But this particular formation is clearly created with an Achilles' Heel in mind. If you have three Spyders, it is pretty unlikely that all will be destroyed, making the formation's dependence on them near-pointless and the rule near-pointless.
"As long as one of your 50 Monoliths is on the table, you get x benefit"
I do think the heavy destroyer is one of the best buys in the codex now.. One of the best in all books. I'm thinking of a core like this.
Szeras
10 warriors, ghost Ark
2 stalkers with heavy gauss
3 heavy destroyers
3 heavy destroyers
3 heavy destroyers
That leaves about 800pts maybe to round out the list with a counter attack unit, a horde thinner and some anti air.
The core provides 12 incredibly reliable lascannon equivilent shots on a very resilient frame. Those heavy destroyers shoot better then Obliterators, are 70+ pts cheaper and more survivable.
My biggest problem is overcoming my disdain for spamming 3 non troop units. I can settle for 2 units of heavy destroyers, in my mind that's not spam, but 3 identical units is a line in the sand I haven't crossed in a very long time.
Nilok wrote: A lot of formations don't have an Achilles' Heel, more that you get a fluffy benefit for setting up that part of your army in a fluffy manner. However, that isn't really relevant.
Currently you can only take one Spyder according to the rules, but I think GW should talk about it due to so much conflicting information elsewhere in the book.
But this particular formation is clearly created with an Achilles' Heel in mind. If you have three Spyders, it is pretty unlikely that all will be destroyed, making the formation's dependence on them near-pointless and the rule near-pointless.
"As long as one of your 50 Monoliths is on the table, you get x benefit"
The formation was created with the Spyder acting as the hub of the formation. This is the fluffy rule as the Spyder is usually the hub and chief coordinator for Canoptek system after the Sentinel Computer.
There is conflicting information in the codex, more that a single entry and should be commented on by Games Workshop.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 00:36:18
Mixed units of Destroyers used to be a bad idea, as they had differing priorities.
I notice though, that people are making mixed units in a lot of lists now. Any particular reason that's changed beyond destroyers being improved in general?
I like it. To be more "competitive" I would maybe look at taking at least two units of the heavy destroyers (300 points saved) out and replacing them with Night Scythes for the Immortals (260 points).
For pure Destroy fun though it still looks awesome! and would look sick on the field.
It makes a good sponge so he doesn't get gunned down and helps him wreck hordes. Throw a Cryptek in there if it isn't the Necron Detachment so he can refuse challenges for the Destroyer Lord if you need to.
Not really since it affects to hit rolls, plus he shores up a huge deficiency the unit has which is Anti-AV. I mean the whole unit can get tied up by 1 Sentinel. He can also tank overwatch shots if needed for the unit.
15 Flayed Ones is 195
Destroyer Lord w/ Phylactery , Warscythe, Phase Shifter
Total: 365
75 Attacks , Reroll 1s To Hit, Reroll Wounds, if taken as part of the Decurion 4+ RP
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 01:32:00
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
and 
