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Oh by the way, I checked with Reese about how they are going to handle the Nightbringer's Gaze of Death for the LVO. His response was that it:
Does not roll to hit
Cannot target FMC Can target invisible units
Cannot be used if locked in combat/against units locked in combat
Now, this is of course not a RAW thing - simply how they have decided to rule it for that event. IMO, I think it can be used perfectly well in all of those scenarios. Always interesting to see how different events rule things though
luke1705 wrote: Oh by the way, I checked with Reese about how they are going to handle the Nightbringer's Gaze of Death for the LVO. His response was that it:
Does not roll to hit
Cannot target FMC Can target invisible units
Cannot be used if locked in combat/against units locked in combat
Now, this is of course not a RAW thing - simply how they have decided to rule it for that event. IMO, I think it can be used perfectly well in all of those scenarios. Always interesting to see how different events rule things though
My advice is to tell your opponents beforehand so that there won't be any in-game arguments because, trust me, it will happen otherwise. "WTF? You auto-hit my flyers while locked in combat?!?"
luke1705 wrote: Oh by the way, I checked with Reese about how they are going to handle the Nightbringer's Gaze of Death for the LVO. His response was that it:
Does not roll to hit
Cannot target FMC Can target invisible units
Cannot be used if locked in combat/against units locked in combat
Now, this is of course not a RAW thing - simply how they have decided to rule it for that event. IMO, I think it can be used perfectly well in all of those scenarios. Always interesting to see how different events rule things though
Did he say why they were ruling it like that? I don't really see the reasoning behind the limitations, agreeing with you.
While it might not be 100% RAW, it is somewhat consistent with the rules.
"Does not roll to hit."
That one is obvious.
"Cannot target FMC."
That is consistent with attacks that do not roll to hit cannot hit flyers/FMC's.
"Can target invisible units ."
Ditto above.
"Cannot be used if locked in combat/against units locked in combat ."
With the exception of not needing to roll to hit, he is obviously treating this special attack as a shooting attack. If you treat it as such, then not being able to "shoot" out of combat/into another combat is consistent with his other rulings.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/15 20:44:55
jy2 wrote: While it might not be 100% RAW, it is somewhat consistent with the rules.
"Does not roll to hit."
That one is obvious.
"Cannot target FMC."
That is consistent with attacks that do not roll to hit cannot hit flyers/FMC's.
"Can target invisible units ."
Ditto above.
"Cannot be used if locked in combat/against units locked in combat ."
With the exception of not needing to roll to hit, he is obviously treating this special attack as a shooting attack. If you treat it as such, then not being able to "shoot" out of combat/into another combat is consistent with his other rulings.
I'd say it's more towards 0% RAW, as Gaze of Death is a special rule invoked during the shooting phase and not a shooting attack. Obviously this has already been established, I just wanted to vent my opinion on comparing it to a shooting attack which it is not. I was also going to call you out on the "can target invisible units" being ditto'ed with "cannot hit flyers/FMC's", but I then remembered that LVO is to use an altered version of invisibility, is it not?
Formosa wrote: How do people feel that heavy bolters will do against necrons?
Depends on if you want to tailor specifically vs 'crons or try to stay TAC. In most cases you would probably be better of with autocannons, as the capability of hurting vehicles means they are way more versatile. They are also a larger threat to wraiths. I'd go for HBs if your opponent runs nothing but silver tide, but even then I'm not too sure about their overall performance.
Formosa wrote: How do people feel that heavy bolters will do against necrons?
It's good, especially if you can spam it. VoF (volume-of-fire) is what will bring down the Necrons. Heavy Bolters have the range to hurt from a safe distance as well as the strength to deal with T5 Necrons. You'll only have problems against the AV13 Necron skimmers, but I am assuming Marine armies will pack enough meltas in their armies to deal with those.
jy2 wrote: While it might not be 100% RAW, it is somewhat consistent with the rules.
"Does not roll to hit."
That one is obvious.
"Cannot target FMC."
That is consistent with attacks that do not roll to hit cannot hit flyers/FMC's.
"Can target invisible units ."
Ditto above.
"Cannot be used if locked in combat/against units locked in combat ."
With the exception of not needing to roll to hit, he is obviously treating this special attack as a shooting attack. If you treat it as such, then not being able to "shoot" out of combat/into another combat is consistent with his other rulings.
I'd say it's more towards 0% RAW, as Gaze of Death is a special rule invoked during the shooting phase and not a shooting attack. Obviously this has already been established, I just wanted to vent my opinion on comparing it to a shooting attack which it is not. I was also going to call you out on the "can target invisible units" being ditto'ed with "cannot hit flyers/FMC's", but I then remembered that LVO is to use an altered version of invisibility, is it not?
We all know that tournaments no longer follow pure RAW. However, the reasoning for his ruling is consistent, even if it isn't purely RAW.
And yes, the BAO/LVO has altered how Invisibility works, but that has nothing to do with it. Firing at Invisible units follow the same principle as firing at flying units, which is the basis of his ruling for both.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/15 21:06:46
We all know that tournaments no longer follow pure RAW. However, the reasoning for his ruling is consistent, even if it isn't purely RAW.
And yes, the BAO/LVO has altered how Invisibility works, but that has nothing to do with it. Firing at Invisible units follow the same principle as firing at flying units, which is the basis of his ruling for both.
Absolutely, it is up to every TO to rule as he or she sees fit. I just don't see the reasoning behind treating it as a shooting attack, although I understand that's a decision that has been made.
It is your second point that confuses me, If you re-read what Luke stated above and you yourself quoted, the ruling is that Gaze of Death cannot target FMC but can target invisible units. It is this discrepancy that confuses me, and that's why I brought up the changed invisibility ruling as it is the only reason why you'd rule differently in these two cases.
I apologize. Within the framework of their rules, it is consistent.
They changed the rules for Invisibility such that you are NOT snap-firing at Invisible units but rather, you hit them on 6's with shooting attacks that need to roll to hit.
Thus, snap-firing at flyers -> cannot target.
Shooting at Invisible units (not snap-firing) -> can target.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/15 22:15:26
This is because of how the LVO is handling invisibility. You can't auto-hit something that makes you snap fire; however the LVO is having invisibility simply make you weapon skill and ballistic skill 1 - so you can target it with templates, can hit on 5 in CC, etc. Their ruling certainly is consistent with how they have altered select other rules and I think it is a fair balance between pure RAW and the full assumption that it is a shooting attack (probably the two extremes for and against the C'tan)
Edit: Deathleaper'd
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/15 22:15:20
I haven't had a chance to try the army out yet, but I imagine that my oppoenent will find it quite difficult trying to wipe out a scarab swarm that grows by 10 bases per turn and has 4+ RP.
That looks amazing. Just hide the Swarm Scarabs behind some scenery, bubblewrap and breed!
I haven't had a chance to try the army out yet, but I imagine that my oppoenent will find it quite difficult trying to wipe out a scarab swarm that grows by 10 bases per turn and has 4+ RP.
That looks amazing. Just hide the Swarm Scarabs behind some scenery, bubblewrap and breed!
Thanks.
The plan is for the Swarm to tarpit/destroy the biggest threat the enemy has on the board, the Immortals to camp my objectives, and for the warriors and Tomb Blades to disrupt the enemy objectives. The CAD swarms are to bubblewrap and protect the Spyders.
My regular opponents are Space Marines and Daemons, with the Daemonic MCs being the biggest issue to contend with.
Yep the biggest issues are going to be against Eldar, Nids and Tau who all have the requisite str 6+ VOF to lessen wounds on the units. But the are still fantastic fast little tarpits
Red Corsair wrote: Your almost always going to be better off with obsec. Necrons still do the late game objective steal better then most armies and with out obsec your basically losing this ability.
5 immortals/10 warriors in a NS don't need +1 RP, they need obsec.
I am a big believer in re-rolls and a 4+ re-roll following your initial failed save is huge! I think obsec is really good with NS but an army wide 4+ re-roll is slightly better.
Red Corsair wrote: If your planning on running a lot of ground pounding warriors then I still think your better off with obsec for different reasons.
1. You have the characters and ghost arcs to make the difference laughable.
The number one reason why the decurion is so good is that it helps eliminate one of the necrons weaknesses, cc. Everyone keeps saying its only 2-3 more deaths but in cc thats the difference between staying alive or dieing. Why spend points on characters when you can get the effect for a small sacrifice?
Thats why you dont need obsec because you have the numbers. Contesting and grabbing objectives is alot easier when you have multiple units and because these units are extremely durable they are even harder to get rid of.
Red Corsair wrote: 3. Your now much slower with very limited ranged weapons, your going to need obsec to prevent other armies from stealing/contesting.
My favorite unit in the codex are the tomb blades and they are very fast, my second favorite unit are the destroyers and their fast, and my third favorite unit are wraiths and they are fast, necrons can be built to be slow or really fast its the player choice.
Red Corsair wrote: I think the Decurion can be made to work, but why bother if it requires so much effort to make work. A CAD + formationsis much more flexible and will make TAC lists better.
I like the decurion because it makes the army more durable not just the warriors and immortals but, other units such as tomb blades, wraiths, and scarabs all become harder to kill. Objective secured will be a short lived advantage for your opponent because if we are both there I gurantee that the necron player will have the tools to kill whatever unit that is claiming the objective.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/16 01:34:07
But...it doesn't matter if you don't die. If you don't kill all of their obsec, you lose pretty much. How does Decurion deal with drop pod spam? I think you can do like 7 in 1850 so that's 14 combat squads plus 7 drop pods. How many turns do you need to kill those? 10?
@CKO- fair enough, I find it strange that all your favorite units need the RP boost the least though. Wraiths, destroyer and TB all are either T5, multi wound, have an invuln or jink/jsj and RP 5+++ or some combo of the bunch.
Really not seeing how hamstringing yourself on set formations and heavy taxes for a 1+++ boost is worth final word on objectives at game end.
I think the Decurion can be a fun alternative if you happen to find yourself wanting the exact models your forced to take, but I'd personally rather get obsec any day of the week.
I can also say it's bold of you to think your guarenteed answers to wipe the enemy.
With illuminor and orikan you can already boost the crap out of CAD units, and they are awesome, not really seeing why you can't have the durability AND the obsec.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
luke1705 wrote: But...it doesn't matter if you don't die. If you don't kill all of their obsec, you lose pretty much. How does Decurion deal with drop pod spam? I think you can do like 7 in 1850 so that's 14 combat squads plus 7 drop pods. How many turns do you need to kill those? 10?
I have yet to see much offense in the decurian lists that are popping up. Super durable sure, but generally light on quality shooting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/16 03:50:48
I am, 5 game tourney today and tomorrow. I ended up taking the simpler list I posted first (CAD: CCB, 2 arks, 12 wraiths, 9 scarabs, 9 spyders), because keeping track of which unit belongs to the harvest and which doesn't, didn't feel like something I'd be able to do all weekend... I'll try to post a quick overview of how it went.
Well... Two points main points here: A) Scarab farm is a very powerful list and B) I can't play it for crap...
My own games are nothing worth reporting, I think I finished in the bottom third with only one major win out of five games, the rest being three narrow losses and one total defeat (it was a battle points tournament). CCB was pretty much useless, I won't be bringing it again for serious games. He's only real moment was scaring a unit of eldar jetbikes off the table with nightmare shroud's one use thingy. Otherwise the list was ok.
BUT, necrons piloted by better players did really well. The lists were something like this:
1st place
CAD Zahndrekh
Orikan
2 x 5 immortals
2 x 6 wraiths
3 scarabs
3 x 3 spyders
Harvest
6 wraiths
4 scarabs
spyder
Wraiths had some coils and a couple spiders had prisms. Orikan (and mostly Zahndrekh) were with harvest scarabs or harvest wraiths. The guy playing this list was from the Finnish ETC team.
Cult
Destroyer Lord (scythe + nightmare shroud)
3x 2 destroyers + 1 heavy
3 heavy destroyers
Orikan & destrolord joined the warriors, doing re-rollable 2+ armour shenanigans.
EDIT: One thing that makes the scarab farm more powerful than before, and hasn't been discussed here, is that you no longer need to make new scarabs at the beginning of your movement phase. The codex says just "once per friendly movement phase". Which means you can move some or all spyder units and the scarab unit before adding more bases. That opens up an unbelievable amount of options for a player who can really exploit it, up to and including a first turn charge in some cases.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/02/16 17:06:28
Okapi wrote: How are you equipping your Tomb Blades these days? A month ago particle beamers seemed the best choice, but now I find myself considering gauss.
Personally, I'm carrying so much gauss on my warriors, immortals, and ghost arks that I prefer the Particle Beamers still.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
Lychguard with a Chronometron Cryptek, even Scytheguard versions, are tougher than Terminators and also 15 points cheaper.
T5 > T4
3+ with a 4+ RP is statistically the same as 2+
5++ with a 4+ RP is much better than a 5++, though not usable in Assault.
~~~Corollary, in Assault against AP2 weapons they still get 4+ RP, which is better than the Terminator's 5++
Throw in Orikan and they can reroll Armor/Invuln/Cover saves of 1
Put them in a Decurion with the Overlord in their squad and they reroll RP of 1
Those two aside, if you take 10 and just count the Chronometron Cryptek as a squad upgrade rather than a character, that's 34ppm for better Assault Terminators with Warscythes, which Assault Marines only wish they had.
The issue they have is getting to anything to fight. With only a 6" move, they're obviously lacking in the mobility of something like Praetorians or Wraiths. To combat this, Varguard Obyron is a proper choice. He's a souped up Scytheguard with a teleport. However, it's unreliable.
Next thought: Obyron's interaction with Zahndrekh's Ghostwalk Mantle solves this. However, the problem is getting Zahndrekh forward enough for the 12" bubble to be worthwhile. To solve this, there are a couple options.
1) Start Zahndrekh at the very edge of your deployment zone. Turn 1, walk him forward 6", teleport Obyron 12" ahead of him, run Obyron. Obyron is now 18+" from your deployment zone turn 1, an early movement that even Wraiths are jealous of.
2) Put Zahndrekh in a Ghost Ark. Start it near the edge of your deployment zone, move Cruising Speed up 12", teleport Obyron 12" ahead of that, run Oybron. 24+" movement turn 1, in the enemy's deployment zone, threatening a Turn 2 charge with Warscythes.
3) Hold Obyron back until Turn 2, letting Zahndrekh move up into a better position, hope for a Turn 3 charge.
3 is safest, 1 is easiest, 2 is most threatening but also the most dangerous. Since you can't put Zahndrekh in the Ghost Ark with Warrirors (min size 10 now), he'd be in there alone, or at best, with a Lord or Cryptek.
Here's a possible list that could make all that work:
Spoiler:
CAD Overlord with Warscythe, Phase Shifter
Warriors x10
Immortals x5
10x Lychguard
Ghost Ark
Royal Court Zahndrekh
Obyron
Cryptek w/ Chronometron
1030 points. Plenty of room for adding in support and upgrades
Decurion Version:
Spoiler:
Reclamation Legion Overlord w/ Warscythe
Warriors x10
Warriors x10 w/ Ghost Ark
Immortals x 5
Lychguard x10
Tomb Blades x3
Royal Court Zahndrekh
Obyron
Cryptek w/ Chronometron
Aux Deathmarks x5
1199. Gives the durability to the army, but would still need to invest more points on upgrades to make the Tomb Blades worthwhile and probably some other vehicles.
Can even add in Orikan to the mix to make it a very scary deathball, and maybe even a Solar Staff. However, while this delivery system is very powerful, it still has the issues of reaching the target.
While the squad still only has a 6" movement, if you can finish turn 1 at 1" away from an enemy unit, you still have an all but guaranteed turn 2 charge. Say you want to target a bike squad
Enemy Turn 1: Move forward
Your Turn 1: Teleport 1" away, run to spread out around them.
Enemy Turn 2: Move 12" away, shoot
Your Turn 2: Move 6" forward. Depending on how you were able to run and surround them, you should have a 6-7" charge, which is a 50/50 of getting in.
Against something with a 6" move, it's basically impossible for them to get away. If a 12" move model uses it's shooting phase to run/flat out/etc, you can't catch them, but then they basically wasted a whole turn running away from you, allowing you to move to the next target or onto an objective.
The version of this that uses Shield Lychguard doesn't require a Chronometron Cryptek, but lacks the AP2 Armorbane punch.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/16 17:03:33
Lychguard with a Chronometron Cryptek, even Scytheguard versions, are tougher than Terminators and also 15 points cheaper.
T5 > T4
3+ with a 4+ RP is statistically the same as 2+
5++ with a 4+ RP is much better than a 5++, though not usable in Assault.
~~~Corollary, in Assault against AP2 weapons they still get 4+ RP, which is better than the Terminator's 5++
Throw in Orikan and they can reroll Armor/Invuln/Cover saves of 1
Put them in a Decurion with the Overlord in their squad and they reroll RP of 1
Those two aside, if you take 10 and just count the Chronometron Cryptek as a squad upgrade rather than a character, that's 34ppm for better Assault Terminators with Warscythes, which Assault Marines only wish they had.
The issue they have is getting to anything to fight. With only a 6" move, they're obviously lacking in the mobility of something like Praetorians or Wraiths. To combat this, Varguard Obyron is a proper choice. He's a souped up Scytheguard with a teleport. However, it's unreliable.
Next thought: Obyron's interaction with Zahndrekh's Ghostwalk Mantle solves this. However, the problem is getting Zahndrekh forward enough for the 12" bubble to be worthwhile. To solve this, there are a couple options.
1) Start Zahndrekh at the very edge of your deployment zone. Turn 1, walk him forward 6", teleport Obyron 12" ahead of him, run Obyron. Obyron is now 18+" from your deployment zone turn 1, an early movement that even Wraiths are jealous of.
2) Put Zahndrekh in a Ghost Ark. Start it near the edge of your deployment zone, move Cruising Speed up 12", teleport Obyron 12" ahead of that, run Oybron. 24+" movement turn 1, in the enemy's deployment zone, threatening a Turn 2 charge with Warscythes.
3) Hold Obyron back until Turn 2, letting Zahndrekh move up into a better position, hope for a Turn 3 charge.
3 is safest, 1 is easiest, 2 is most threatening but also the most dangerous. Since you can't put Zahndrekh in the Ghost Ark with Warrirors (min size 10 now), he'd be in there alone, or at best, with a Lord or Cryptek.
Here's a possible list that could make all that work:
Spoiler:
CAD Overlord with Warscythe, Phase Shifter
Warriors x10
Immortals x5
10x Lychguard
Ghost Ark
Royal Court Zahndrekh
Obyron
Cryptek w/ Chronometron
1030 points. Plenty of room for adding in support and upgrades
Decurion Version:
Spoiler:
Reclamation Legion Overlord w/ Warscythe
Warriors x10
Warriors x10 w/ Ghost Ark
Immortals x 5
Lychguard x10
Tomb Blades x3
Royal Court Zahndrekh
Obyron
Cryptek w/ Chronometron
Aux Deathmarks x5
1199. Gives the durability to the army, but would still need to invest more points on upgrades to make the Tomb Blades worthwhile and probably some other vehicles.
Can even add in Orikan to the mix to make it a very scary deathball, and maybe even a Solar Staff. However, while this delivery system is very powerful, it still has the issues of reaching the target.
While the squad still only has a 6" movement, if you can finish turn 1 at 1" away from an enemy unit, you still have an all but guaranteed turn 2 charge. Say you want to target a bike squad
Enemy Turn 1: Move forward
Your Turn 1: Teleport 1" away, run to spread out around them.
Enemy Turn 2: Move 12" away, shoot
Your Turn 2: Move 6" forward. Depending on how you were able to run and surround them, you should have a 6-7" charge, which is a 50/50 of getting in.
Against something with a 6" move, it's basically impossible for them to get away. If a 12" move model uses it's shooting phase to run/flat out/etc, you can't catch them, but then they basically wasted a whole turn running away from you, allowing you to move to the next target or onto an objective.
The version of this that uses Shield Lychguard doesn't require a Chronometron Cryptek, but lacks the AP2 Armorbane punch.
Another option is putting Zandrekh in a NS for deeper precision striking for Obyron.
Yes, but the idea is to get him across turn 1 and then Turn 2 charge. Scythes don't come in until turn 2, maybe, which means the assault only deathball can't get a charge until turn 3 at the earliest.
Wraiths, scarabs, and Praetorians are designed for Turn 2 charges -- Lychguard simply are not. You can put a lot of bells and whistles into a list to help them try to attempt that goal, but honestly you're probably better off saving the points and just buying them a night scythe. They can use invasion beams to practically deep strike with no scatter on turn 2, and depending on objective placement have a pretty certain turn 3 charge or at worst, play goalkeeper to an important area of the battlefield and score points through positional dominance.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
Requizen wrote: Yes, but the idea is to get him across turn 1 and then Turn 2 charge. Scythes don't come in until turn 2, maybe, which means the assault only deathball can't get a charge until turn 3 at the earliest.
I like death balls of Orikan, a couple of lords with ws and flamers, and an Overlord (possibly Zandrekh?) with ws and flamer cruising in a GA and taking advantage of both its open-topped nature and its assault capablities.
Obyron could be attached to a unit of FO, LG, or even wraiths while Zandrekh rolls with the other deathball.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/16 18:01:22
Requizen wrote: Yes, but the idea is to get him across turn 1 and then Turn 2 charge. Scythes don't come in until turn 2, maybe, which means the assault only deathball can't get a charge until turn 3 at the earliest.
I like death balls of Orikan, a couple of lords with ws and flamers, and an Overlord (possibly Zandrekh?) with ws and flamer cruising in a GA and taking advantage of both its open-topped nature and its assault capablities.
Obyron could be attached to a unit of FO, LG, or even wraiths while Zandrekh rolls with the other deathball.
I've looked at making Royal Court "deathballs" work too, but they just get so expensive. 50 for a Lord, not taking into account upgrades and artifacts, is going to end up being way more expensive than any thing with that few units has any right being. I mean, sure it'll be strong, lots of AP3 shooting, Flamers, Warscythes, you can take 4++, you can take 2+, etc... but I mean, that's a lot of points for something that will probably be no more than 5-7 models, max.
Another idea, something a bit different. Imotekh is very interesting to me. Staff of the Destroyer is a great gun, and if you can drop him in the middle of a gunline his Lord of the Storm shooting has a chance to really cut a chunk out of enemy lines. This would be more of a "shooting deathball" than something that charges and kills everything.
Imotekh the Stormlord
Lychguard x5 with Shields
Lord with Gauntlet of the Conflagrator and Warscythe
440 points. Would need to pop it in a Scythe, but I don't really consider that part of the squad since it's plenty good on its own. Lands, S7 AP2 Template, S6 AP2 Assault 3 gun, surrounded by Shieldguard. They can then eat a bunch of shooting, and as long as they're not charging a Knight, they'll probably kill anything that charges them/they charge next turn. Beef it up by adding Orikan for more AP2 attacks/4+++/rerolls.
Requizen wrote: I don't particularly think Wraiths need a teleport bomb, they're already fast enough as it is, especially with how they ignore cover.
Right. The list above just gives you that tactical option.
Obyron could deepstrike in with the Flayed Ones and then pop his Ghost Mantle to hit another target once the first target gets shredded by the cuisuinarts of death..
I like the GA as an delivery platform for a royal court with Zandrekh in there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/16 19:31:33
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
I don't really see the reasoning behind the limitations, agreeing with you.
I was also going to call you out on the "can target invisible units" being ditto'ed with "cannot hit flyers/
I'll try to post a quick overview of how it went.