Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It isn't like Walkers get cover as easily as Infantry or Monstrous Creatures. I rarely assume cover for vehicles for that reason mostly.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Well it was a mini campaign day and I started with troops in my collection. So I had a 20 man warrior squad, a 10 man warrior squad with an overlord in a NS and 5 immortals in a NS. I also had 2 5 man praetorian squads with rods and Illuminor in the 20 man blob. Oh and I had 15 flayed ones. I'll admit. there isn't a ton of variety in my list, but we were playing all maelstrom for the day and the objectives were evenly placed with one torward each corner and two in the middle, deployment was the old spearhead (shop hates vanguard and I tend to agree). It didn't help that he won the rolls for everything initially and basically he had a 2 man dread unit on either of his flanks and move+ran them between 2 objectives each turn 1.

I know I need ghost archs for my warriors and I have canoptek units, 3 spyders 20 scarabs and 6 wraiths unassembled, but even then with initiative 4 and 4 attacks each, these things will seriously cripple anything you toss near them in assault which leaved you with fishing for 6's I guess. The only things I can come up with besides tarpits and guass are heavy destroyers or doomscythes.

I will also add that this was one of those games where my dice were ice and his were on fire, he made 7 of 8 5+ cover saves on his relic predator and made 19 of 20 3+ saves then proceeded to 6+ FNP that failure (iron hands). So that game was gona suck either way but it made me realize how annoying dreads are now that they have units and 4 base attacks each.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If they're in squads, they move 6". If they're in a Pod, they will probably not do anything with their single shot, meaning you probably won't have to Jink your Ghost Ark, and then you unload 30 shots of Gauss which will statistically HP it out.

What's the issue you're having?

Not sure I agree with your math. 20 hits will yield 3 HP's without cover which on the insane table we were on meant he was generally always getting a 5+ cover save unless about to assault. So assuming he rolled like a normal person that game that's 2 HP's out of 6, he can then rotate the injured one before assaulting. He also has IWND, so it gets even fuzzier.

Also, I need to assemble/'paint my 2 Ghost arks which I now know are a musty take for warriors.

I know guass will eventually do it, it just sucks being stuck on your heels for a turn or two in maelstrom, that can mean the game.

You know what will tear Dreadnoughts to shreds? A destroyer lord attached to some Flayed Ones. Give the lord a warscythe and phase shifter. At Toughness 6 he won't be doubled out, he'll have a 4+ invul and a 5+ reanimation, and his warscythe should tear them up. The Flayed ones won't be able to hurt the Dreads but they'll provide extra wounds and are able to Deep Strike with the Lord. After your deep strike, if your opponent doesn't charge you first, you can split the Destroyer Lord from the Flayed ones and engage the Dreadnoughts in single combat while the Flayed Ones kill something more their size.

That should at least tie up one unit while you can dodge the other unit. Wraiths would occupy their time for a while. 6 wraiths with whip coils should inflict 2 penetrating hits on the charge before the dreads can swing back.

Praets with rods are a really bad match against dreads.

Thanks all for the replies about the eldar. I did mess up on my generalship. Usually we play 1500-1000 point games. For those, I'm thinking it's best to go without the decurion, I don't like the taxes on the capnotek harvest, I've never had the scarabs do anything and the spider is a great fire magnet, but not much else. similar with most of the other formations, and I've gotten to the point where I don't like warriors that much except in a ghost ark, and then I don't know where to put my IC's, as I hate hate hate lychgard-- my meta is all about speed, and they never catch anything.

Zimko wrote:
Praets with rods are a really bad match against dreads.

Yes, but Praets with Void Blades are pretty good against them, PARTICULARLY if there's an attached Destroyer Lord (just make sure he's carrying a ResOrb so enough of them can survive that first attack from the dread to hit back and mulch it with their PE rending that auto glances on a 6. Accompanied by the S7 AP2 armorbane, they should make short work of it... actually, that unit would make short work of most things).

 skoffs wrote:

Zimko wrote:
Praets with rods are a really bad match against dreads.

Yes, but Praets with Void Blades are pretty good against them, PARTICULARLY if there's an attached Destroyer Lord (just make sure he's carrying a ResOrb so enough of them can survive that first attack from the dread to hit back and mulch it with their PE rending that auto glances on a 6. Accompanied by the S7 AP2 armorbane, they should make short work of it... actually, that unit would make short work of most things).

I have to disagree here. People keep exaggerating void blades, they still fish for 6's, also remember your initiative 2. Those dreads in my case get 8 swings at S10 AP2 before you can even try to strip HP's. That makes a full squad necessary, very pricey at 280. Adding a D-lord is fine and all, but he is much slower meaning he isn't going to pile in until after the dreads rape your unit, meaning he isn't tanking jack turn 1 when it matters. Now that unit is well over 400pts, this isn't a reasonable answer since adding a D-lord to any unit will make them better at handling walkers. I will admit void blade praets are great anti horde, but I see no reason to field them over rod praets 9/10 times since we lack AP2 massively as an army.

Any instance where void blades would be matched against AV I don't see why I wouldn't shoot gaus instead, I hit on 3's no matter what, sometimes 2's and I can't be hit first in my own turn (initiative2 + overwatch). Against rear armor 10 tanks the rods will still kill them. I will also admit I hate the models for void blades, one of the few necron models I think look slowed, but that is besides the main point.

Void blade praets are essentially a poor version of wraiths.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I will admit void blade praets are great anti horde, but I see no reason to field them over rod praets 9/10 times since we lack AP2 massively as an army.

The other aspect is that if you're using a Decurion, then the only way to field Praetorians is with a Triarch Stalker. And, since both the Formation bonus and the Stalker's own bonus only applies to shooting attacks, it seems rather weird to give up several S5 AP2 shots.

 vipoid wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I will admit void blade praets are great anti horde, but I see no reason to field them over rod praets 9/10 times since we lack AP2 massively as an army.

The other aspect is that if you're using a Decurion, then the only way to field Praetorians is with a Triarch Stalker. And, since both the Formation bonus and the Stalker's own bonus only applies to shooting attacks, it seems rather weird to give up several S5 AP2 shots.

Exactly, at first I assumed the rerolls applied to every phase when people were boasting them, then upon relooking over the entry it seems like void blades are flat out worse most of the time. I feel like void blade praets and dispersion field lychguard are basically a wraith split in half. I'd rather take rods on praets and warscythes on lychguard and let wraiths fill the other roles.

 vipoid wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I will admit void blade praets are great anti horde, but I see no reason to field them over rod praets 9/10 times since we lack AP2 massively as an army.

The other aspect is that if you're using a Decurion, then the only way to field Praetorians is with a Triarch Stalker. And, since both the Formation bonus and the Stalker's own bonus only applies to shooting attacks, it seems rather weird to give up several S5 AP2 shots.

You want to eventually charge with them though, and Rods aren't great against all targets you might face (like Green Tide).
One of each is the way to go I've tested.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You want to eventually charge with them though, and Rods aren't great against all targets you might face (like Green Tide).
One of each is the way to go I've tested.

Green Tide isn't exactly the norm though.

It's like saying you shouldn't take any non-gauss weapons below S7 in any list, because IK armies exist.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I will admit void blade praets are great anti horde, but I see no reason to field them over rod praets 9/10 times since we lack AP2 massively as an army.

The other aspect is that if you're using a Decurion, then the only way to field Praetorians is with a Triarch Stalker. And, since both the Formation bonus and the Stalker's own bonus only applies to shooting attacks, it seems rather weird to give up several S5 AP2 shots.

You want to eventually charge with them though, and Rods aren't great against all targets you might face (like Green Tide).
One of each is the way to go I've tested.

They aren't much better against green tide either though if you do the math. Your only hitting half the time in CC. Better sure, but I wouldn't suggest it's a solution I'd take, for the same cost you can get an annoying amount of tomb blades with s6 blasts that ignore cover.

For me I am not running Decurion, I don't think it is worth it against maelstrom armies that are the norm now. Durability is worthless if your not claiming objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also again, I don't see how void blades make any sense when wraiths exist. They both have the same number of swings while one is s6 over s5 and both rend. Wraiths also have an invuln and fleet AND swing first with whip coils.

Ignores Cover is more valuable with the Gauss Blasters. You don't have to rely on terrible scatter never happening and AP4 on top is great.

As for that, you're already spending a lot on the Triarch formation. Yes Wraiths rend as well, that wasn't debated. However, how many of each squad are you realistically fitting in an army?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ignores Cover is more valuable with the Gauss Blasters. You don't have to rely on terrible scatter never happening and AP4 on top is great.

As for that, you're already spending a lot on the Triarch formation. Yes Wraiths rend as well, that wasn't debated. However, how many of each squad are you realistically fitting in an army?

I agree I like the gaus blaster more generally, but you were discussing anti horde where I think the s6 blast is in fact better. Orks have T-shirts and nobody max spaces 100+ boyz. I also would rather wound on 2's then 3's, that said, I don't think anyone plans for horde anymore anyway. Again, horde isn't that great in the current environment.

You keep insisting the formations when I have said I am running with a CAD. I don't think the Decurion is nearly as good as a CAD in Maelstrom, which is pretty much all anyone plays in my neck of the woods. Two 5 man praet units is only 280 and actually really strong against small scoring units. Even better when you field 6 wraiths with a D-lord, scarabs and a few individual spyder units. It makes many threats around the board that are fast and durable while being efficient at their task.

As for the dread units, I think not only was I not fielding the right units (it's all I had ready) but his dice were STUPID. Saving 21 of 22 3+ saves then making the follow up 6+ FNP and making 6 of 7 5+ cover saves on a tank was really giving me a false sense of the army I think. After a few days, I think units of dreads will still be annoying, but after adding key units shouldn't dominate board control.

I honestly wouldn't run Praetorians outside the Decurion. The 4+++ is what makes them entirely more dangerous on top of that extra attack. Plus, the formation benefits are fantastic, as it boils down to "eliminate a target your Stalker can see per turn".

Also, Objective Secured is so overrated and you really do want the extra survivability with them. If you want to use the CAD, fine. Don't take the Praetorians in that Elite slot though. Take them in the formation.

Forgive me for jumping in and not reading 120 pages for an answer.

I have seen success here but unsure how it translates overall as I have heard mixed comments on dakka.

How does warrior gauss spam fair in the current meta?

I have friends that run 100+ models of warriors with objective secured, and not only can you not table them.. but it's near impossible to take them off objectives.

Not looking for a debate, just some insight from some more experienced cron players.

Cheers! Thanks!

I've honestly been considering this recently, especially as I've been having trouble with my recent more elite lists (Wraiths + Destroyers), since they die pretty easily to power units (Gravstars) and heavy guns (D-weaponry, Wraiths, etc).

Mass Warriors have a neat advantage in that the only thing they really worry about is AoE D or S8+. Both of which is rare (read: Eldar), and even when taken generally not in enough numbers to remove more than 1 unit per tun (after which point they begin to get whittled down.

Not to mention combined with Night Scythes to get them where they need to be, Szeras for 4+ RP bubble, maybe some sort of Assault frontline in either Wraiths or Orikanstar, I think the Silver Horde could be quite effective.

The only issue is lack of Fearless against strong Assault armies. As we all know, LD10 is great. But, you lose combat by a lot to something like Thunderwolf Cav, and then that's down to LD5 and you get swept because I2 is basically nothing to anyone except Tau.

You also lack lots of heavy/special weapons in a list like this. While in theory they will eventually chip away everything from blobs to Wraithknights - in practice, that doesn't really compare to having Heavy Destroyers or Ignores Cover Tomb Blades, which are nearly essential for certain opponents.

I don't know if it's *good*. It's not bad. While you might think walking across a Silver Tide is pretty straightforward, there's a lot of target priority and positioning that goes into it. What to bubble wrap, measuring distances, having backup units to hold objectives in case one gets swept, what units to Transport and which ones to footslog, etc. It's slow, so you have to plan where to go and account for possible losses on the way there. In Maelstrom, they basically have to hold all objectives, because they can't move quickly from one to the other.

I think it could be interesting. I would like to figure out how many Warriors are too many and what units best support them. Obviously a good frontline Assault unit is a good choice, but so could be, perhaps, an allied detachment or Formation. For a force like this, which excels in the midfield, you could consider something with Deep Strike or Outflank/Infiltrate that will help deal with those extreme range/high mobility threats that the Warriors will have issues reaching.

I would have to run it a few times to figure it out. It's kind of like, in theory, a slower version of Battle Company. Mass ObSec, pretty hard to kill off, etc. In practice... well, any army that focuses purely on one unit comes down to how easy it is for the opponent to kill that one unit. Warriors are not the easiest to kill, since they are cheap and Necrons, but they do have weaknesses.

I feel like mixing in some Immortal units isn't bad. Go double CAD, lets you get some S5 shooting and more MSU split that can force the opponent to split their fire. Makes me want to fiddle with some lists...

1- Don't bother trying to table anyone, let alone Necrons.That's not how games are won anymore.

2- "Warrior gauss spam" is practically non-existent in competitive meta for being horribly inefficient.

3- If there's ObSec Necrons on an objective, get your own ObSec into combat with them. You more than likely won't be able to clear them off, but by doing this you'll be accomplishing several things:
A) preventing him from scoring any points with them
B) preventing him from using his Warriors to shoot with (they're better at shooting than combat, so tying them up with anything is better than letting him use them as he wants)
C) keeps your own guys safe until backup arrives (neither ObSec unit will probably end up killing the other, it'll just be a tarpit until the end of the game, unless one of the players diverts a more competent unit to join the fray)

Partially disagree on #2. Flayers are fine at killing light/medium targets, especially when they start with 10/20 shots to a unit. They're not reliable as anti-tank or anti-MC/GC, but against everything else they're rather fine, especially en masse as discussed above.

#3 is pretty situational. Most ObSec units won't win combat by enough with Warriors to sweep them - after all, Troops are Troops. With the exception of something really dedicated like Khorne Berserkers or Bloodletters, of course, but those are really not that common. Warriors (or Immortals if you go that route) are just as durable or moreso than 90% of Troops out there (especially with a Cryptek buff), and are fine hitting back at WS/S/T 4.

And if you're preventing Warriors from an Objective, they're stopping you too, so I'd take that trade. Of course, for most Objective missions, Warriors can just blob out and bodyblock Markers as well. And if the opponent splits off hit powerful and expensive Assault unit to kill the handful of 13 point units on an objective, I'll call that about even.

Still, it's probably not good. But, I think there's something to taking more than just minimum Troops for Necrons, personally. 4 units of Warriors isn't that expensive and can slow roll pretty hard to back up Wraiths or Lychstar.

Thanks guys I appreciate the insight.

Yeah I obviously didn't go about listing everything taken. Usually there is mass warriors backed by some wraiths or that one MC you have that randomly chooses a crazy psychic esk move to use... I have a lot of trouble with him generally. Usually see some of the bikes with ignores cover.

I mainly play tau. Nids, and eldar. Tau is 50/50 if I get some hot dice or manage to upset his troop placement by taking out the right unit I can buy some time. Nids I only tried once and it was a draw. As you stated I ran my countless gaunts and just bogged him down.

Eldar haven't tried yet but I run a more fluffly non wraithknight spam list so who knows haha.

Hey all. I have just started my dynasti, so need some help.
So far I have
12 warriors
3 Swarm
5 Immortals ( Gauss)
5 Deathmarks.

On saturday GW release a new starter box for necrons.
So I try to decide if its a good addon for my force.
The only thing Im abit worried about is the stalker. Do some one have a nice experience with Stalkers?
It looks nice with +1 BS for all warriors and so with in 6" of him. But it might get 1 shooted and give first blood,
I need the OL and more warrios. And more Swarms cant hurt.
/Dempa

The box is a great value, I highly suggest it. I don't think you need more than one or two, though.

The Stalker is fine. Eventually you may want to replace it, but if you're just starting and playing in low point games, don't worry about something being perfect. It's pretty nice for mass amount of foot dudes like you have.

My first goal is a 1000pts army. So I will get the box.
Thanks for the reply Requizen=)

Hey guys, new to the silver robot death machines but an old hand at 40k.

I am looking to build an 1850 tournament list for use here in Australia.

We have an unusual comp set up down under - the link is here....http://www.communitycomp.org/

I am limited to 14 credits for the list due to the event standard locally. What that basically means is that spamming units is often difficult to do (I can only get 3, maybe 4 night/doom scythes in the list for example) and most of the super builds (Orikan DS, Scarab Farm etc) are al but impossible to play.

At this stage, I am looking at a Decurion using a reclamation legion and likely a royal court in the hopes of building a mini Orikan star using swordguard and a couple of 3+ characters (since multiple 2+ characters get hurt by comp).

I am intrigued by the living tomb and praetorian formations - how do you find those when used? Are monoliths any good? I can think of a few trisky things but with no practical experience I am not sure. What about the Ctan? Better with the mepherit dynasty rules for the formation?

Any help or light you can shed greatly appreciated!

 Massaen wrote:

I am intrigued by the living tomb and praetorian formations - how do you find those when used? Are monoliths any good? I can think of a few trisky things but with no practical experience I am not sure. What about the Ctan? Better with the mepherit dynasty rules for the formation?

Any help or light you can shed greatly appreciated!

In a tournament setting, Monoliths are typically considered crap, pardon my French. They're okay, and I mean okay, for casual games. They are too easy to take out with the amount of Grav, melta, or D-weapons you'll see in most tournaments. Plus, it's firepower isn't very astounding for it's point cost.

The C'tan shards are, again, good and fun for casual games. The amount of S6/7 you'll see spammed in tournament settings will see it dead whenever your opponent chooses. The formation helps, obviously, but now you're talking a 300-400 point unit just to make the C'tan decent.

Praetorians are good, and a ton of fun from my experiences. They have AP2, which Necrons as a whole lack, they're fast, and durable. Plus Fearless, so their low Initiative hardly matters.

Monoliths = meh.

C'tan = so-so (though, the Mepherit Conclave of the Burning One using a Nightbringer and two Crypteks (one with Godshackle and Veil, the other with Solar Staff) can be amusing).

Praetorian formation = incredibly hard hitting (especially if you include Night Scythes), but very expensive.

Orikan + Shield-guard = okay. Practically unkillable but very slow (you'll need a delivery system, most likely Veil or Obyron, and may want to consider the Solar Staff to give them Pseudo invisibility on the turn they arrive in the enemy backfield).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dammit, ninja'd

I missed them being fearless! Do you run them in max units for the formation or something smaller? Rod or Blades?

What about the stalkers? just a single or run 3? which weapon on them?

 Massaen wrote:
I missed them being fearless! Do you run them in max units for the formation or something smaller? Rod or Blades?

What about the stalkers? just a single or run 3? which weapon on them?

I only run 1 stalker, mainly because I only own one. I'd run 3 if I had the models. But that's not the most competitive thing to do, so I'd just go with 1 for now if I were you. And I run a squad of both, one with Blades and one with Rods. And max squads could get expensive, but they would probably kill whatever they charged, that's for sure.

 Massaen wrote:
Hey guys, new to the silver robot death machines but an old hand at 40k.

I am looking to build an 1850 tournament list for use here in Australia.

We have an unusual comp set up down under - the link is here....http://www.communitycomp.org/

I am limited to 14 credits for the list due to the event standard locally. What that basically means is that spamming units is often difficult to do (I can only get 3, maybe 4 night/doom scythes in the list for example) and most of the super builds (Orikan DS, Scarab Farm etc) are al but impossible to play.

At this stage, I am looking at a Decurion using a reclamation legion and likely a royal court in the hopes of building a mini Orikan star using swordguard and a couple of 3+ characters (since multiple 2+ characters get hurt by comp).

I am intrigued by the living tomb and praetorian formations - how do you find those when used? Are monoliths any good? I can think of a few trisky things but with no practical experience I am not sure. What about the Ctan? Better with the mepherit dynasty rules for the formation?

Any help or light you can shed greatly appreciated!

Wow, never looked at Comp before, what a headache.

Orikanstar is pretty good, but yes I agree you need a delivery system. And it sounds like ICs + Veil is a lot of comp points.

The Conclave actually seems not too bad from a comp point perspective, but given that it's still pretty easy for most armies to bring a hard counter to it, so be careful.

It sounds like they just want to comp deathstars pretty hard, so I would definately check out the Praetorians in the Decurion, the MSU is pretty good.

 Massaen wrote:
Hey guys, new to the silver robot death machines but an old hand at 40k.

I am looking to build an 1850 tournament list for use here in Australia.

We have an unusual comp set up down under - the link is here....http://www.communitycomp.org/

I am limited to 14 credits for the list due to the event standard locally. What that basically means is that spamming units is often difficult to do (I can only get 3, maybe 4 night/doom scythes in the list for example) and most of the super builds (Orikan DS, Scarab Farm etc) are al but impossible to play.

At this stage, I am looking at a Decurion using a reclamation legion and likely a royal court in the hopes of building a mini Orikan star using swordguard and a couple of 3+ characters (since multiple 2+ characters get hurt by comp).

I am intrigued by the living tomb and praetorian formations - how do you find those when used? Are monoliths any good? I can think of a few trisky things but with no practical experience I am not sure. What about the Ctan? Better with the mepherit dynasty rules for the formation?

Any help or light you can shed greatly appreciated!

Just out of curiosity, I looked at how much my Necron list was under these rules. It came out to 14 points.

My list is a Decurion with minimum sized Reclamation Legion with Zhandrekh as the Overlord and Neb. scopes and shield vanes on the Tomb Blades.
A Destroyer Cult with 11 Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers and a Destroyer Lord (adding one more Heavy Destroyer would add an extra point which we don't have a budget for in this comp). The Destroyer Lord is equiped with Phase Shifter and Warscythe.
A Judicator Formation (2 units of 5 Praetorians with rods and a Stalker)
A min-sized Canoptek Harvest (whip coils).

I think I followed the comp rules correctly to come out to 14 points. It's a headache for sure but that is actually a pretty competitive list, especially given the restrictions will limit the more competitive lists out there.

Zimko wrote:
a Decurion with minimum sized Reclamation Legion with Zhandrekh as the Overlord

Kinda seems like a waste to take Zahndrekh in a min sized Decurion. What does he even attach to? Wouldn't you normally want to throw him in with something where his abilities would make a major difference?

Its an interesting list Zimko!

For those that commented on the comp - yep, it can be a pain for sure!

Has anyone got any experience with the obelisk?

I am warming to the idea of the Judicator battalion with 2x10 praetorians and the single (or maybe 2) stalkers with gauss