The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**LordofHats**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
The problem isn't whether or not it's trivial. The problem is this narrow, laser-focus on Hillary and Hillary alone throughout all of this. The general mismanagement of classified information (from classifying material incorrectly, to labeling it incorrectly, to sending it unsecured, etc.) at all levels within the State Department (and you know it really doesn't stop there, political complacency and technology illiteracy is commonplace throughout DC, especially since half of Congress is probably old enough to remember using typewriters). Think about this: why aren't all the people who knowingly sent the classified stuff to Hillary's email making the headlines? Why aren't they getting all the public shame? After all, they're the ones that "leaked" it.

Don't disagree.

**Breotan**

If this is his honest belief, he should drop out and be done with it.

Jeb Bush wrote:“I could drop my pants,” he said in an interview. “Moon the whole crowd. Everybody would be aghast, except the press guys would never notice.”

**BobtheInquisitor**

He better be careful if he tries it. I hear Hillary's pretty quick with a knife.

**whembly**

dogma wrote:
whembly wrote:
Oh my!

Indeed.

Not that you care, of course.

Dig deeper.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2016/02/05/no-the-powell-and-condi-classified-emails-story-is-not-a-gamechanger-n2114842

Excerpt here:

...
In summary, Hillary Clinton's server is the scandal. It's possible that Rice's aides and Sec. Powell may have acted improperly (though the email rules were set forth after Powell left office). They may have been sloppy with a small number of low-level classified information on an ad hoc basis. The rules and laws pertaining to the US government's data security must be followed. By everyone. But Clinton mishandled hundreds upon hundreds of classified emails, which held state secrets at the highest classification levels. In fact, just this week, the State Department deemed another seven Clinton emails too sensitive to release in any form, even with redactions, bringing that total to 29. Intelligence officials who've seen some of the documents in question say they betray operational intelligence, the leakage of which puts covert missions and lives at risk. A former NSA official has intelligence community sources who say Clinton's emails included the true identities of CIA operatives and assets, including foreign nationals working for the agency. Unlike Powell and Rice, Mrs. Clinton exhibited ongoing gross negligence by exposing reams of sensitive and classified intelligence to foreign governments. She ignored her sworn duty to safeguard secrets, "marked and unmarked," and declined to alter her behavior after she was admonished of an explicit vulnerability pertaining to personal email use. And unlike Powell and Rice, Hillary has consistently lied about this scandal. Her smug assertion that the (twice expanded) FBI investigation won't go anywhere amounts to waving a red flag in front of career investigators and intelligence officials, who are reportedly fuming over her irresponsible, and likely criminal, conduct. Remember, the probe reportedly entails more than just her email misconduct, Gen. David Petraeus was charged for classified intelligence spillage that was far more limited and contained, and a former US Attorney General says there's already sufficient evidence to justify an indictment. Clinton seems confident that her political power and privilege will shield her from accountability in the end, sending a less-than-subtle message to the Justice Department, which has already been influenced by two public White House statements...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:
whembly wrote:

There is nothing trivial about a secretary of state having top-secret information on an unsecured computer in her home.

It is completely trivial. That's why no one cares.

Right, so Patreous, Manning or Snowden didn't really, really break any laws.

Right?

**LordofHats**

whembly wrote:

Right, so Patreous, Manning or Snowden didn't really, really break any laws.

Right?

Those aren't the same things and you know it.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Honestly, I feel like Manning and Snowden face much harsher penalties than they deserve. Patreas got off relatively lightly, didn't he? I forget what his sentence was.

**whembly**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Honestly, I feel like Manning and Snowden face much harsher penalties than they deserve. Patreas got off relatively lightly, didn't he? I forget what his sentence was.

Manning is in prison now for 35 years.
Snowdow is in exile.
Patreous plead down and lost his clearance and paid a fine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:
whembly wrote:

Right, so Patreous, Manning or Snowden didn't really, really break any laws.

Right?

Those aren't the same things and you know it.

Oh?

Clinton's server had amateur hour vulnerabilities so that she can control her every communication and avoid oversight.

The very physical server itself *is* the smoking gun.

**LordofHats**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Honestly, I feel like Manning and Snowden face much harsher penalties than they deserve.

Manning got what was coming. Snowden ran into the problem that we don't have good whistle blower laws in the US (no where does really...), and even if we did, the government would probably find some way to exempt itself from them because no one likes a tattletale, even if the tattletale did the right thing.

Patreas got off relatively lightly, didn't he? I forget what his sentence was.

Well, again, that issue itself was fairly trivial. He had to resign because of a whole mountain of improper conduct, but initially none of that really amounted to much of anything. Then political opponents decided to score points by holding up one piece of digital paper and screaming to the heavens that the law had been broken... And nothing much really happened, because "oh no once again government officials have mishandled documents/information" is kind of a trivial thing on a case by case basis. Guy plead to the charge, paid some money, and walked away.

Probably nothing would have come of it if it hadn't been proceeded by a mountain of affairs being revealed among military/defense officials, some stalker, and general widespread embarrassment.

**whembly**

Lordy... people dies whenever "mishandled documents/information" happens.

'Tis why the Other Intelligence Agencies are throwing major hissy fits over this.

If Hillary was "Manning"... she'd be frogmarched in prison in short order.

**d-usa**

whembly wrote:

The very physical server itself *is* the smoking gun.

So the classified emails that you post every week are completely irrelevant?

Either getting them is wrong, and as such every other Republican SoS made the same mistake, or getting them isn't a big deal and you just keep on posting them for no reason at all.

But people can't even decide what the damn scandal is here and what the actual problem is.

But again, that is just the typical problem with the way the GOP has dealt with all things Clinton.

In the 90s it went like this: There was a shady business deal --> we must launch a special totally non-partisan investigation to get to the bottom of this --> we didn't find out anything wrong with the business deal, but did you hear Bill is sleeping around? --> hey guys, the President lied about getting blown in office --> this dress has a cum-stain on it! --> IMPEACH HIM!!!!!

Now we have: There was something shady about Benghazi --> we must launch multiple totally non-partisan investigations to get to the bottom of this --> none of our multiple investigations found anything wrong with Benghazi, but did you hear HIllary had a private email server? --> hey guys, there are emails that are now classified on it! --> oh, other guys had classified emails on their private email as well? Okay, ignore the email, THERE IS A PRIVATE SERVER!!! --> Can we pre-impeach her? Pretty please?

And that is really why nobody cares.

**whembly**

d-usa wrote:
whembly wrote:

The very physical server itself *is* the smoking gun.

So the classified emails that you post every week are completely irrelevant?

Either getting them is wrong, and as such every other Republican SoS made the same mistake, or getting them isn't a big deal and you just keep on posting them for no reason at all.

But people can't even decide what the damn scandal is here and what the actual problem is.

But again, that is just the typical problem with the way the GOP has dealt with all things Clinton.

In the 90s it went like this: There was a shady business deal --> we must launch a special totally non-partisan investigation to get to the bottom of this --> we didn't find out anything wrong with the business deal, but did you hear Bill is sleeping around? --> hey guys, the President lied about getting blown in office --> this dress has a cum-stain on it! --> IMPEACH HIM!!!!!

Now we have: There was something shady about Benghazi --> we must launch multiple totally non-partisan investigations to get to the bottom of this --> none of our multiple investigations found anything wrong with Benghazi, but did you hear HIllary had a private email server? --> hey guys, there are emails that are now classified on it! --> oh, other guys had classified emails on their private email as well? Okay, ignore the email, THERE IS A PRIVATE SERVER!!! --> Can we pre-impeach her? Pretty please?

And that is really why nobody cares.

No. The problem is, there's one set of law for us Plebes (like Manning/Snowden), and another for the connected (like Hillary and to certain extent Patreous).

*Thats* the problem.

**LordofHats**

whembly wrote:
Lordy... people dies whenever "mishandled documents/information" happens.

Take it to Hollywood. They'll eat that up. Meanwhile the real world knows that everything under the fething sun gets classified, no matter how unimportant it is, and no one is dead because of Hillary's inbox.

'Tis why the Other Intelligence Agencies are throwing major hissy fits over this.

They're throwing a fit about it because they're the intelligence agencies. They're the governmental equivalent of a spoiled rich kid who got a pony at 5, a Ferrari at 10, and their own yacht at 16. They throw fits about everything, demand that no one ever ask what they're doing and why, and violate their own mandates on a whim. I could care less about their childish tantrums. They're upset because they want absolute control of the intelligence machine, Congress is upset because they want absolute control of the intelligence machine, and Hillary just did something that both sides get to use as a proxy war for their own little squabbling. This has nothing to do with Hillary at this point, except in so far as the GOP likes throwing this out as a matter of scoring points. The real battle is between Congress and the defense intelligence machine of this country over who gets to control what, and that has nothing to really do with Hillary.

Meanwhile, its still trivial, and no one cares except you and some reporters with nothing better to do with their time.

**d-usa**

whembly wrote:

No. The problem is, there's one set of law for us Plebes (like Manning/Snowden), and another for the connected (like Hillary and to certain extent Patreous).

*Thats* the problem.

I look forward when you use your never ending quest for justice to actually back up your words.

The way you just waved away the fact that Rice and Powell also broke the laws shows that you don't give a crap. It's not about *us* vs *them*, it never has been, it never will be. It's about *Hillary/Obama/Their Team* vs *your team*.

But we all knew that already.

**Dreadclaw69**

d-usa wrote:
Either getting them is wrong, and as such every other Republican SoS made the same mistake, or getting them isn't a big deal and you just keep on posting them for no reason at all.

I know that Colin Powell said that the documents he received were classified 10 years after he initially received them. Through a State Department server. Without his request to strip them of classification. But that would require you to admit that you aren't comparing apples to apples. Almost that it's about *Bush/Trump/Their Team* vs *your team*.

Condi said she didn't use email for those documents, so who does that leave?

**Manchu**

whembly wrote:
(like Hillary and to certain extent Patreous).

And even then, quite a big gap between those two.

**d-usa**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:

I know that Colin Powell said that the documents he received were classified 10 years after he initially received them.

So you are using the Hillary defense? Because Hillary says stuff wasn't classified when she initially received them and State is classifying stuff now.

Almost that it's about *Bush/Trump/Their Team* vs *your team*.

I'm against Team gakky Arguments.

**LordofHats**

d-usa wrote:

I'm against Team gakky Arguments.

Hey. Team gakky arguments might not play a good game, and they might not even play that particularly well, but they have spirit damn it and that's what really counts!

**d-usa**

LordofHats wrote:
d-usa wrote:

I'm against Team gakky Arguments.

Hey. Team gakky arguments might not play a good game, and they might not even play that particularly well, but they have spirit damn it and that's what really counts!

I'm sorry, I will attempt to recognize the effort...

And I need to remember why I have some people on ignore

**Dreadclaw69**

d-usa wrote:
So you are using the Hillary defense? Because Hillary says stuff wasn't classified when she initially received them and State is classifying stuff now.

Read what I actually wrote, and try again

d-usa wrote:
I'm against Team gakky Arguments.

You're against yourself?

**LordofHats**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Read what I actually wrote, and try again

Okay;

I know that Colin Powell said that the documents he received were classified 10 years after he initially received them.

Condi said she didn't use email for those documents

Clinton said she never sent or received any material marked classified.

Well glad to know we're taking everyone equally at their word.

**whembly**

Manchu wrote:
whembly wrote:
(like Hillary and to certain extent Patreous).
And even then, quite a big gap between those two.

Agreed. Hillary's situation is far worse.

**Breotan**

whembly wrote:
If Hillary was "Manning"... she'd be frogmarched in prison in short order.

And therein lies the crux of the situation. Hillary will likely never be held accountable for anything she has done in her life. Even Nixon had the decency to resign.

**Jerram**

Not realizing that one or two emails you received had a secret piece of info, completely believable and even for us plebes not likely to lead to serious punishment (even for the sender if he didn't realize what he was doing).

Not realizing that 100's of emails including SAP and SCI information were classified, sorry but believing this is true requires such willful ignorance its mind boggling especially given the mail from her directing subordinates to remove markings and send unsecure.

Trying to equate the two situations is pure balderdash.

**Gordon Shumway**

Breotan wrote:
whembly wrote:
If Hillary was "Manning"... she'd be frogmarched in prison in short order.

And therein lies the crux of the situation. Hillary will likely never be held accountable for anything she has done in her life. Even Nixon had the decency to resign.

What crime is she accused or convicted of? Here's the deal, unless you want to bring a case (don't try it, she's got lots of money and good lawyers) or anybody in the govt. does, there is literally nothing. You can bitch and moan all you want, got a case? Bring the case forward. I'm sure you could find a super pac to fund your efforts. the GOP has been dying for the last ten years to kill this person in any way imaginable. She is still kicking. Either she hasn't broken the law, or the law she broke is more difficult to find than lots of lawyers have figured out, or you are just being an ear sore. Show me the actual law or statute she broke, or shut the hell up, because it's pretty stupid at this point when you compare this piddly crap to the ridiculous of the GOP nominees. Donald Freaking Trump is your leading nominee. Or Ted Cruz. Or Marco Rubio. Do you honestly think any of those people are above setting up an email account behind the board?

**dogma**

whembly wrote:

Dig deeper.

How is putting "Hillary Powell Rice" into Google digging deeper?

I saw that article, and it doesn't exonerate Colin Powell or Condi Rice (or even try to do so), you just have a hate-on for Hillary Clinton.

Guy Benson wrote:She ignored her sworn duty to safeguard secrets, "marked and unmarked," and declined to alter her behavior after she was admonished of an explicit vulnerability pertaining to personal email use. And unlike Powell and Rice, Hillary has consistently lied about this scandal. Her smug assertion that the (twice expanded) FBI investigation won't go anywhere amounts to waving a red flag in front of career investigators and intelligence officials, who are reportedly fuming over her irresponsible, and likely criminal, conduct.

Yep, Guy Benson hates Hillary as much as Whembly does.

**Gordon Shumway**

His hate-on is making me like her more. Keep it up Whem, I might actually vote vote for her

**dogma**

whembly wrote:

No. The problem is, there's one set of law for us Plebes (like Manning/Snowden), and another for the connected (like Hillary and to certain extent Patreous).

*Thats* the problem.

The solution is "Don't be a pleb."

Isn't that what US, conservative ideology posits as the end goal for people?

**Sarouan**

So...are the Republicans so desperate that they can only think to charge Hillary about one thing to tell people not to vote for her?

Didn't you have a debate between Republican candidates yesterday? Does that mean that they said absolutely nothing about their actual program? You know, what they may bring for actual solutions to make sure the country will be safe? Other than totally stupid and unrealistic declarations?

When someone is trying to charge the other at all cost, it usually shows they have nothing to say about themselves. And I find it's quite a big problem if you want to become President in charge of nearly a whole continent.

But then, that's not my country.

**skyth**

It's pretty much part of the conservative playbook that different from me==bad person. That is what they run on for the most part...That 'others' are bad people so you need to elect me.

**shasolenzabi**

Bernie Sanders is for the People

Hilary is for Wallstreet

Republicans are for helping the Rich get richer and de-regulating to the point all our water will be toxic, our air visible, and we are ruled by some religious theocracy (Still as yet to be defined which of the thousands of denominations will rule all)

I am voting for Bernie