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I most certainly never said I was losing 6 models from a single unit every turn! What I did say was that in an average game most of my boyz units are suffering about 20% casualties from beating themselves up. Im not concerned with every unit getting fearless but I would like a better mob rule table as titan just reminded you lot D3 would be better then D6. it gets worse when your in small units, a bad roll can literally cause 30-40% casualties in a single Mob rule test.

Whereas before in the previous rendition of Mob rule when you failed your Ld test and simply got swept or fled this one at least gives you a chance to die on your own terms. Especially for small units who can't feasibly go above 10 (i.e. Nobz or Mega Nobz, the latter of which has a hardy 2+ save against any of the wounds you may suffer from Mob Rule result).

I understand you don't like Mob Rule...but there are many ways to mitigate it if you really don't like taking your own casualties. For boyz units you can take 'eavy armor, Painboyz or using the Mad Dok/character with the Big bosspole. Or just take gretchin as your core units then. They don't suffer from Mob Rule. The runtherd with a squig hound even lets them just re-roll failed Ld tests out-right. If you look on the WAAAGH!-forum there is an Ork player called Dim Reapa who is an expert on using mass gretchin.

I know I'm in the minority, but I think it's a good change.
The previous mob rule only benefited larger units.

Mobs of 10+ still won't run, Gunline forces can now go to ground.

A couple of dead Orks? Bargain! And very Orky.
That Tankbustas, Lootas and the more specialised units now have a better chance of not running is great. These smaller mobs actually make an appearance in this edition. Last codex it was just 30 Boyz and Lootas in every list.

Meganobz, Nobz and 'Ard Boyz barely notice the hits.

its a difference of play styles then, you lads like small units I like my big infantry blobs. I wonder, last edition saw lots of players buying 100+ ork boy models at $30 for 10 so 300 for your infantry alone. Not many people bought the specialized orks for the reason you stated above, this current codex/edition saw the swing go the other way in favor of lots of small units. I understand GEEDUBZ is a company and is profit driven but why do they have to completely change the rules to almost force you to buy new units every year or two :(

 Ghazkuul wrote:
its a difference of play styles then, you lads like small units I like my big infantry blobs. I wonder, last edition saw lots of players buying 100+ ork boy models at $30 for 10 so 300 for your infantry alone. Not many people bought the specialized orks for the reason you stated above, this current codex/edition saw the swing go the other way in favor of lots of small units. I understand GEEDUBZ is a company and is profit driven but why do they have to completely change the rules to almost force you to buy new units every year or two :(

It's unfortunate but it is their business model. Sadly, people with established collections are not their target audience as you can tell since they give no regard for veterans and what they can use and instead of making everything viable they swing the pendulum the other way to squeeze out more money out of them and use the big sticker items to have little Timmy buy it and forget it a few weeks later. It doesn't help of course with their archaic management and explicit lack of market research. Hopefully with the new Necron codex's good show of internal stability it's a sign of some form of change taking place with their design philosophy.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
its a difference of play styles then, you lads like small units I like my big infantry blobs. I wonder, last edition saw lots of players buying 100+ ork boy models at $30 for 10 so 300 for your infantry alone. Not many people bought the specialized orks for the reason you stated above, this current codex/edition saw the swing go the other way in favor of lots of small units. I understand GEEDUBZ is a company and is profit driven but why do they have to completely change the rules to almost force you to buy new units every year or two :(

If you're into big blobs, why not take THE blob in the form of the Green Tide?

Also, if you want Fearless on your orks, field a Stompa. Effigy gets you Fearless for every unit within 6".

 grendel083 wrote:
I know I'm in the minority, but I think it's a good change.
The previous mob rule only benefited larger units.

Mobs of 10+ still won't run, Gunline forces can now go to ground.

A couple of dead Orks? Bargain! And very Orky.
That Tankbustas, Lootas and the more specialised units now have a better chance of not running is great. These smaller mobs actually make an appearance in this edition. Last codex it was just 30 Boyz and Lootas in every list.

Meganobz, Nobz and 'Ard Boyz barely notice the hits.

i think its a good change too, as i have said before, avg of 1.46 orks will die form the nob killing someone. THATS NOT BAD! thats only 0.46 more orks than last edition! so who cares!

your probably never gonna make this check every turn, so its not a big difference. id rather lose 0.46 of a boy more and pass my test than fail it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mumblez wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
its a difference of play styles then, you lads like small units I like my big infantry blobs. I wonder, last edition saw lots of players buying 100+ ork boy models at $30 for 10 so 300 for your infantry alone. Not many people bought the specialized orks for the reason you stated above, this current codex/edition saw the swing go the other way in favor of lots of small units. I understand GEEDUBZ is a company and is profit driven but why do they have to completely change the rules to almost force you to buy new units every year or two :(

If you're into big blobs, why not take THE blob in the form of the Green Tide?

Also, if you want Fearless on your orks, field a Stompa. Effigy gets you Fearless for every unit within 6".

exactly! there are ways to move around the mob rule, even if you dont like it. Gazzy


.

Why don't I feel the big blob? Simple I have to go to the games store this week and purchase another 10-20 boyz to finish making it :-P My last upgrades I was bullied by you lot into buying Mega nobz which have yet to be worth a damn in any Battle I have fought :-P My new trukk is working wonderfully as yet another means to deliver a can of whoop @ss. But if i can get the new orkies and build them by this weekend I will be running a Green tide Waaagh list with a painboy in it. If I could ever con a friend into loaning me his army for a weekend I would run this formation with 180models and some extra IC and a small horde detachment.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Keyword was "no expense".

Space Marines cost almost double a boy. =)

Cough , Power Armor, cough, better stat line

I would have to disagree with you, sir. The current version of the mob rule is too good. As many of the other members of the forum have pointed out, the mob rule helps smaller units. Where the old mob rule did not. As long as you have a character, or in case of boyz units a nob, you will be fine. Boss poles help out with rolling on the mob rule table. Also, I believe that the Ghazghkull supplement gives a bonus to the mob rule table that makes so will never hit the one that requires you to be in cc to auto-pass.

It helps out small ones at the expense of larger ones - which is the typical way one plays orks. Although I know it's the status quo, it also mandates an extra 25-35 points be dumped into every squad creating a kind of hidden tax on the (what I believe it) already expensive slugga or shoota boy.

For the average Ork player, this changed how Orks are played but since the codex has been out around a year now I suppose this is already the regular way. You'll loose more boys on the whole, and with a near global leadership of 7 I'd like the old mob rule as a way of bolstering that save for the few methods we have of increasing ld (i.e. attaching a warboss or faux ways like rolling bellowing tyrant).

What is the problem with Mob rule I thinks its the last "orky" rule left...

the old Mob rule was the same way but it didn't result in 2-5 extra dead boyz. The problem a lot of us have with the rule is that it can cripple an ork unit if it rolls badly. So its random which is fun for orks but its horribly random that can ruin the game for you if your unlucky. So what it did was, it allowed units to be fearless to a degree, which we already had, but it will now kill units if your unlucky, which we didn't have. In fact for a ork unit to even have to roll with the boss pole you had to be below 10 models. THAT is why we hate it, and I would say the SAG is still very orky.

I love when my friend got the new Ork codex when it came out. He's the kind of guy that loved the randomness of Orks, and ended up quitting because he hated the "flavorless" Orks, and Mob Rule was a big part of it.

People say it sucks, sure. But it is ORKS. It makes sense. They're gonna run away? The nob beats the snot out of a few, and they keep on chugging. If they're in combat and still have numbers, its essentially the same as the old mob rule. So, I don't really see what the issue is...

the issue is instead of a 5/6 chance of losing 1 boy you have a 5/6 chance to lose between 1-6 boyz with a 6+ armor save. So if you roll crappy you lose up to 20% of your starting mob, and keep in mind if you have a 30 man unit that needs a morale check that means you already lost 5 models so tacking on a possible extra 6 guts that unit.

Rolling on a table is annoying but otherwise Mob rule is fine. Taking d6 wounds is always better then running away.

 Geemoney wrote:
Rolling on a table is annoying but otherwise Mob rule is fine. Taking d6 wounds is always better then running away.

nobody is denying this geemoney, what we are pointing out is that its a NERF because the old table made the boyz fearless and then when they were at less then 10 models they could get a leadership reroll by beating a boy over the head. chance to lose 1 boy vs chance to lose 6 boyz.

Ramshackle got nerfed, Mob rule got nerfed, Ghaz got nerfed, KFF got nerfed, Cybork got nerfed, BW got nerfed, Deff Rolla got nerfed. Its a bit disappointing with how much hate got piled on the orks this codex.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Geemoney wrote:
Rolling on a table is annoying but otherwise Mob rule is fine. Taking d6 wounds is always better then running away.

nobody is denying this geemoney, what we are pointing out is that its a NERF because the old table made the boyz fearless and then when they were at less then 10 models they could get a leadership reroll by beating a boy over the head. chance to lose 1 boy vs chance to lose 6 boyz.

Ramshackle got nerfed, Mob rule got nerfed, Ghaz got nerfed, KFF got nerfed, Cybork got nerfed, BW got nerfed, Deff Rolla got nerfed. Its a bit disappointing with how much hate got piled on the orks this codex.

We've already discussed that the Mob Rule we got in the past was a holdover from back in 4th-5th ed. where Fearless meant you took wounds for losing in combat. It was the edition change for Fearless not an active codex change to Mob Rule that made it a buff and to expect it to remain was silly given that it was shown how it was intended to be back when it was created for 5th ed.

Again, I feel like you are oddly bitter about a lot of the things Orks have gotten "nerfed", given that it doesn't seem like you've played for Orks longer than in 6th ed. The Orks codex had finally run out of steam by the end of 6th ed. with ignores cover being spammed everywhere via Tau and Eldar bro-team match up and even Imperial Guard got access to orders that gave units the ability ignores cover, meaning that our KFF was woefully insufficient against the plethora of weaponry set against it. I would say that the KFF change to an invuln. is a sidegrade at worst simply because now we at least get saves against Wave Serpent shield's, markerlights no longer can take away our cover saves, and it does something against flamers. It's also mitigated by the fact that our KFF can be a lot more mobile with a Big Mek on a bike as well as larger radius via a Morkanaught for Dread Mobs. Don't forget that this was also the time Trukks were only good for pretty much MANZ missiles given that with our old version of Mob Rule we had no way to mitigating pinning/explosion tests after falling beneath 10 models which was all too easy even with ramshackle. I will agree however that Ghaz, Cybork and the Deff Rolla got nerfed unnecessarily but I think it's made up with the changes we have with access to great relics that make up for a lacklustre LoW, Painboyz being able to be spread out amongst almost any unit makes up for Cybork bodies and the Deff Rolla (which was already in dubious use due to pre-measuring allowing opponents to kite you) we just exchanged for the ram. Plus several other stuff got better like boarding planks and grot riggers giving IWND. I would say that the BW price hike was justified given how cheap it was for a 20-man AV14 open-topped transport. Plus with the Battlewagon Blitz Brigade formation, for it be the same price as in the old codex would be criminally low.

 Glitcha wrote:
I would have to disagree with you, sir. The current version of the mob rule is too good. As many of the other members of the forum have pointed out, the mob rule helps smaller units. Where the old mob rule did not. As long as you have a character, or in case of boyz units a nob, you will be fine. Boss poles help out with rolling on the mob rule table. Also, I believe that the Ghazghkull supplement gives a bonus to the mob rule table that makes so will never hit the one that requires you to be in cc to auto-pass.

The math doesn't agree with you for the most part. The biggest change isn't even the Mob Rule itself. The biggest nerf to Ork leadership is the change to Boss Poles.

Edit: the Ghaz supplement does give a "bonus" to the Mob Rule chart. What that means is that you will ALWAYS take hits from it, whereas before in CC you could avoid wounds. Whether that's a buff or a nerf, mostly depends on if you're in CC.

you say it was out moded but it has been around since 3rd edition, not 4th-5th edition. So since 1999 the rule has been roll 2D6 and if the mob is bigger then the result you pass. then it was fearless until under 10 and now its roll on the crappy table and kill boyz as necessary. the rules for 3rd edition didn't give extra casualties out to the losing side either.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
you say it was out moded but it has been around since 3rd edition, not 4th-5th edition. So since 1999 the rule has been roll 2D6 and if the mob is bigger then the result you pass. then it was fearless until under 10 and now its roll on the crappy table and kill boyz as necessary. the rules for 3rd edition didn't give extra casualties out to the losing side either.

So it has been nerfed since 3rd edition, and you are still upset about it...

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Ramshackle got nerfed, Mob rule got nerfed, Ghaz got nerfed, KFF got nerfed, Cybork got nerfed, BW got nerfed, Deff Rolla got nerfed. Its a bit disappointing with how much hate got piled on the orks this codex.

The only two nerfs in that list that really hurt are Cybork and Ghaz; specifically Ghaz's waaagh.

Grimskul is exactly right, the 5th ed codex was outdated and barely functioned in 6th and 7th. Over all the orks got buffed in 7th ed.

That shows me exactly how little you know about the orks then. If you don't think they SIGNIFICANTLY nerfed the Deff Rolla then you have never played or played against orks.

If only you read what I said carefully...

The Deff Rolla got SIGNIFICANTLY nerfed; but it didn't hurt us very badly.

Ahh ok! but I disagree, i miss ramming things with my deff rollas :-P

I think everyone misses it....

I sure as hell do, I would have gladly paid 25 points per if they did D3 S10 AP2 (come on, AP4 is poop, they don't want it any lower lest their beloved marines complain about being run over without any armour saves) hits from tank shocking or ramming. Then an additional D3 on an enemy unit if they do death or glory. Would be one way to keep battlewagons relevant besides objective capping after unloading its cargo.

They increased the price of battlewagonz and then nerfed it. How does that make any sense? I mean if they increased the price and kept the Deff rolla as is that would have been fine, but the double whammy means that my Rams are getting new paint jobz and my deff rollas are collecting dust.

So 25 yes votes and 94 no votes (at time of typing) tells me it's a relatively small minority of people who don't like 7th ed Mob Rule...

 grendel083 wrote:

Asterios wrote:
Orks got nerfed plain and simple, I miss the days when orks loved to fight, now they are too scared to.

I'd strongly disagree with this.
The current codex is far stronger than the last.

As to the mob rule, it now benefits smaller unit which the last rule didn't. As the new book makes smaller units more of an option, this is a nice benefit. Larger mobs barely notice a few hits.

So no, I wouldn't want to go back to the old mob rule.

Does the new codex allow you to build Kults of Speed, Deffwings, Kan Walls or gunlines as effectively as thr old one without requiring formations?

Didn't think so.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
So 25 yes votes and 94 no votes (at time of typing) tells me it's a relatively small minority of people who don't like 7th ed Mob Rule...

well actually the question is can we ignore the rule, not would you like the old rule back, In fact I will go start a new vote now and see what the result is. and BTW its over 20% thats a pretty big minority.