Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Or the terms of the contract(s) elsewhere were not met which had a knock-on effect to this one. As people have pointed out, there's only one side sharing information publicly and of course they're going to do it in a way that suits their interests. Also, I'll repeat my belief that the first company that goes to the court of public opinion does so because they know they're weak in actual courts. The tone of BoW's comments implies that they believe both sides have been legitimately wronged in the relationship to date, but obviously their interest in appearing neutral is almost certainly a factor.

In the end though, those guys have the right of it. It doesn't matter who did what before. What matters is that for the sake of those people who had faith in both companies, they need to get over themselves and reach some sort of solution sooner than later.

Something that seems to have gone unmentioned either in the links or on here is that Battlefront have been having some trouble with their release schedule for Flames of War for over a year. The front page has a two-month release schedules, it's supposed to be 'this month and next month' but frequently slips to the point where they only add the current month in the first week OF the month. At one point (I forget if it was last year or the year before) they had to take the new releases down for a month because the last month's had slipped and they didn't even know when it would be available. This was also about the time people were complaining about serious issues getting existing products from them. One of the rumours - which I didn't set much score by at the time - floating around the net was that they'd had a cashflow problem with regards to paying the factory. So I'm a bit skeptical about Battlefronts claim to be an unstoppable juggernaut that could pay for DT ten times over..

 Krinsath wrote:
Also, I'll repeat my belief that the first company that goes to the court of public opinion does so because they know they're weak in actual courts.

I don't put any stock in that at all in this case. This is a crowdfunded project, not some private endeavour between the two companies. Dust Studios name is on the KS but they aren't able to communicate with the backers directly as BF is in charge of those channels.
Communication is everything in KS and DS are providing it while BF want backers to trust that everything is fine.

If anything I think BFs silence with vague suggestions that DS isn't playing ball by meeting with a mediator supports DS' narrative.

We'll see...or we won't. Hopefully everyone gets their stuff and DUST can find a consistent home.

 plastictrees wrote:

 Krinsath wrote:
Also, I'll repeat my belief that the first company that goes to the court of public opinion does so because they know they're weak in actual courts.

I don't put any stock in that at all in this case. This is a crowdfunded project, not some private endeavour between the two companies. Dust Studios name is on the KS but they aren't able to communicate with the backers directly as BF is in charge of those channels.
Communication is everything in KS and DS are providing it while BF want backers to trust that everything is fine.

If anything I think BFs silence with vague suggestions that DS isn't playing ball by meeting with a mediator supports DS' narrative.

We'll see...or we won't. Hopefully everyone gets their stuff and DUST can find a consistent home.

Keep in mind that Dust Studios was so invested in the KS that Paolo can't comment because he didn't even put in a $1 pledge to be able to do so but even that fact is somewhat immaterial. Obviously he's able to communicate with backers simply though Facebook and the relaying of messages. He can't post an update, sure, and that's a major hamstring to reaching ALL backers, but that was the trade-off he made by allowing BF to run it nor has it seemed to impact his goals thus far of stirring up a wider audience to these goings-on (case in point: this thread).

However, BF isn't saying everything is fine; they're saying that things are wrong and there's a proper way to resolve them that Dust refuses to engage in. This is the behind-the-scenes business dealings that typically go on regularly and don't get mentioned. Now, DS might have solid reasons for refusing, as likely they're coming out of such a deal worse off, but don't forget that such a refusal is their role in holding things up. At the end of the day the backers really don't care who is to blame or who has broken what clause of which contract (remembering we have not seen all contracts); the backers want what they paid for and they are right to demand these two companies stop behaving like children and get back to the work of fulfillment.

Both companies are to blame at this point from what I can observe. Paolo's allegations that BF's demands in mediation are ridiculous could be true, but that's the nature of negotiation. You ask for ridiculous so you have space to move down; nor is a mediator worth their salt going to allow for the "ridiculous" position to be the one a company stays at when they finally get everything done. As Warren at BoW says, agree to binding mediation (assuming the laws applicable allow it; between NZ and HK, who knows) and get at it. As a compromise no party is likely to leave happy, but there will be an answer and a way forward.

It really seems like both sides are using the backers as pawns in this dispute with BF using their money/orders while DS tries to encourage their outrage to apply pressure. Honestly, I don't think it reflects well on either company, and they sooner they realize that these antics are only harming them both the better.

 mitch_rifle wrote:
I'd wait and see what's going on perhaps the Dust guys aren't holding up their part of the contract or something

I'd fail to see why such a large and successful company as battlefront would actually do this and compromise their entire business

This seems like the most likely to me, Paolo has never seemed like the most reliable chap to me, and I heard there were issues when he was working with FFG.

Battlefront on the other hand is a company that I have a great depth of experience and a long term relationship with, they might do some boneheaded stuff now and then, but they always deliver and they go to great length to take care of their customers. As mentioned, they still do the free rulebook upgrade thing every edition, and their edition changes are nowhere near as common as other games. We're on edition three now and unlikely to go anywhere any time soon. There's no need to, as Phil and the lads have made a very balanced and easy to play game with a great set of rules. Why fix what isn't broke when you can do the fun stuff and introduce new armies and parts of history instead?

As far as BF going out of business? Utter hogwash. Their board games through their GF9 label have been absolute world beaters, they can't even keep in stock, they just cut a great deal on books which let them lower their prices to save their players money, and are heavily investing in a fantastic plastics range. That is not the behavior of a company on shaky legal ground.

Now I have a bit of a hat in this as I am waiting for a few figures from the Dust KS, just the sisters and a couple heroes but I'll wait for an official statement from Battlefront or Dust Studios, I'm not trusting some random yahoo with an alleged email as "Oh well now I know everything about this."

Dust Studios is a company that if you want charges you a (either monthly or annual, can't remember) fee granting you the privilege of buying exclusive models on their site.

They do that? Holy hera how do you get away with that?

I just checked, it's $50 a year and if you spend enough, there's benefits..

http://www.dustgame.com/member_reg.php

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
They do that? Holy hera how do you get away with that?

Not that uncommon. Old Glory, Acheson Creations, and others have "memberships" where you pay an annual fee, and they knock a percentage off all your orders, often with some kind of bonus attached.

In this case I'm not really seeing the benefits, not unless you and a group decide to buy bulk or the like. Plus they aren't exactly releasing an awful lot of garage kits like they used to.

BF is switching to plastics and rearranging their SKUs, this should account for quite some of the delays.

Why? Dust is a completely separate manufacturing and shipping track. Hell outside of Battle Front's distributing the stuff it's a separate company. The plastics switch was all on the table and being done long before they decided to partner with Dust.

I think Andre is referring to previous comments about BF experiencing delays on FoW product and restock. He's jumping in front of any BF related bullets.

Ah okay. BF has long standing shipping issues and production slow downs for one reason or another, that's one of the issues with a world wide distribution network, sometimes ship happens. (pun intended) I'd wager he's right, and that some of it is accounted for with the switch over to plastics and the SKU reorganization, but some of it's probably just business as usual.

 Pyeatt wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If a Kickstarter update said it, it must be true.

No need to panic, guys. The kickstarter update said everything is fine.

You know... I hope the entire company vanishes to a no-extradition country and you guys never get an update.

That's not going to happen of course, because Battlefront is a legit company, unlike Dust studios.

How Is Dust Studios not a legit company?

 Jehan-reznor wrote:


How Is Dust Studios not a legit company?

Seconded. Please, elaborate.

Well you know how Dust doest really currently exist, and FLGS are really just selling what they had in the warehouse, and how Dust's only chance of survival was a kickstarter partnership? (Even though it has fantastic game mechanics for short skirmishes)

And you know how all over the nation there are stores entirely devoted to Flames of War?

I'm not following, can you use an analogy, maybe some diagrams?

There are Flames of War stores?

 Pyeatt wrote:


And you know how all over the nation there are stores entirely devoted to Flames of War?

This is news to me.

You sure you're not thinking of the Games Workshop stores that sell Warhammer 40k? I know they're pretty similar.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pyeatt wrote:
Well you know how Dust doest really currently exist, and FLGS are really just selling what they had in the warehouse, and how Dust's only chance of survival was a kickstarter partnership? (Even though it has fantastic game mechanics for short skirmishes)

You do realize that the partnership for Dust, as distributed by Battlefront, is far older than the KS, right? I mean, do you actually know what you're talking about here? Or are you just saying the first things that come to mind?

It's all very confusing, the misinformation you're throwing out.

With fanfriends like Pyeatt, BF doesn't need enemies.

This thread needs popcorn. Maybe that Michael Jackson popcorn GIF. Flames of War stores?

 Azazelx wrote:
This thread needs popcorn. Maybe that Michael Jackson popcorn GIF. Flames of War stores?

Ask and you shall receive!

In fairness, he could just be horrible at written communication. "Entirely devoted" can mean "committed to carrying" as well as "exclusively carrying" which in turn means he was saying that there are FLGS across the country who would order more FoW stock/products in a second, but are leery about ordering anything from Dust. Terrible writing to leave multiple valid meanings to a phrase on the table by failing to give context, but that statement is...probably true, though somewhat irrelevant.

Especially if BF is throttling distribution of one and not the other due to this dispute; you'll find store owners are often risk-averse and BF's behavior in general plus this disagreement makes Dust a real risk right now. Few owners want to sell something off the shelf that they can't support properly as that just leads to angry customers. If FLGS start to feel that Dust isn't worth the hassle, then of course they're not going to be expanding their stock. They'll find something more reliable to stick on the shelves to make money.

I admit though that just going with the fanciful idea that FoW could sustain a retail outlet on its own to be much funnier to envision. Even GW struggles to make that work well and they have a logistics chain to put BF's to shame (not that this is hard...).

What this thread actually needs is to stay on topic and avoid anything even resembling a personal attack...

 Alpharius wrote:
What this thread actually needs is to stay on topic and avoid anything even resembling a personal attack...

Arthur Dent?
Arthur Phillip Dent?
You are a jerk Arthur Dent.
In fact, You are a complete knee biter.

Like some others, I am suspicious of Dust taking this to the court of public opinion.

We really don't have enough information to gauge who is in the wrong, since BF seems to be following the more accepted route of seeking independent arbitration.

It is what arbitration is for.

The court of public attention has no bearing on either the legal aspect nor on production of the game.

Likely, both companies are in the wrong on some level - but Dust is more invested in the outcome - both financially and emotionally. Contract discussions are falling apart, and Paolo is feeling a great deal of pressure - likely much more than his counterpart in BF.

But settling the matter requires the exact opposite of an emotional response - it needs a dialogue between the two parties, with an agreed desired result - the production of the game.

Either that or a caged death match - two game designers go in, only one game designer comes out....

The Auld Grump

I don't think the "why was BF $200k behind in payments" question is being asked nearly enough. With that info on the table, I have trouble understanding how one can rationalize siding with/believing BF at this point.

 cincydooley wrote:
I don't think the "why was BF $200k behind in payments" question is being asked nearly enough. With that info on the table, I have trouble understanding how one can rationalize siding with/believing BF at this point.

You're right that the situation leading up to that is probably a huge piece of the puzzle.

However, without greater information (which is unlikely to be forthcoming) that's nearly impossible to say. It could be a situation like Wargames Factory pre-takeover where they ordered a ton of stuff on credit but never paid; this would be fairly negligent by Dust Studios, but such things do happen (obviously since I gave a different example). I suspect that amount is actually at the core of the contract dispute and when the KS failed to raise enough capital to make business work out, things deteriorated to the point we're at now. People more versed in contracts/inter-company dealings might have better insight into how such a thing would develop though, as while each situation is unique there might be some explanation they've seen which aligns to what we do know.

All of that is and will be speculation though as the reality of the situation is most likely governed by contracts that are not in public knowledge, and also very likely include confidentiality clauses that prohibit their disclosure.

All i can say is that bf manufacturing sucks really bad, never enough stock and are very slow.also they are in a transistion peorid for the facilities and location.i hope this situation is rectified justly because i really do like BF alot and some things are just out of their hands and are on the contractors.

I have to agree with that I haven't had anything from BF arrive in any kind of reasonable time in almost 18 months. I'm currently waiting on orders I made in December. :(