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2015/02/01 05:53:24
Subject: 1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets
Yeah, it's much different before. It's a playstyle change that most veteran Necron players will need to get used to.
However, a sign of a great codex (well, maybe not great, but a powerful codex) is that you can usually see the competitive builds fairly quickly. The original Necrons was like that. Tau and Eldar was like that. Chaos Daemons was like that. I just don't see the same thing with the Newcrons (and that isn't necessarily a bad thing).
However, I am noticing a lot of nerfs here and there. For example, now there is no more widespread 2+ saves. Other than the named characters, now only 1 HQ can get a 2+ and it costs something like 30+ points in order to do so.
You can no longer run 5-man warrior units. Instead, you need to run them in 10-man units.
Anti-air has gotten much worse due both to the nerf of Tesla as well as the increase in pointage of the units that used to carry them (and it's a substantial increase per!).
Anti-tank has also gotten worse. We lost our very good haywire crypteks. We will now struggle against Imperial Knights unless we resort to spammed wraithwing Necrons.
We lost the use of crypteks on the whole unless we run the Decurion detachment.
Res Orbs are now only 1-time usage. So is the Veil of Darkness.
I prefered the more expensive 3++ Phase Shifters over the current, cheaper 4++ Phase Shifters (though at least D-lords can now take them).
Scarabs are much more expensive now and their Entropic Strike is no longer scary at all.
These are just some of the less obvious nerfs.
Take comfort, though, in the fact that Necrons are hardly alone in this matter-- the 7th ed Orks, Blood Angels, and Dark Eldar all seemed to be severely rebalanced in the same way (I'm uncertain whether I could say the same about SW and GK). GW seems to be trying to completely reshift the competetive environment by severely toning down most of their 7th ed books. Either way, take heart in the fact that Necrons definitely aren't at the bottom of the board in terms of competetiveness.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/01 05:54:06
Yeah, it's much different before. It's a playstyle change that most veteran Necron players will need to get used to.
However, a sign of a great codex (well, maybe not great, but a powerful codex) is that you can usually see the competitive builds fairly quickly. The original Necrons was like that. Tau and Eldar was like that. Chaos Daemons was like that. I just don't see the same thing with the Newcrons (and that isn't necessarily a bad thing).
However, I am noticing a lot of nerfs here and there. For example, now there is no more widespread 2+ saves. Other than the named characters, now only 1 HQ can get a 2+ and it costs something like 30+ points in order to do so.
You can no longer run 5-man warrior units. Instead, you need to run them in 10-man units.
Anti-air has gotten much worse due both to the nerf of Tesla as well as the increase in pointage of the units that used to carry them (and it's a substantial increase per!).
Anti-tank has also gotten worse. We lost our very good haywire crypteks. We will now struggle against Imperial Knights unless we resort to spammed wraithwing Necrons.
We lost the use of crypteks on the whole unless we run the Decurion detachment.
Res Orbs are now only 1-time usage. So is the Veil of Darkness.
I prefered the more expensive 3++ Phase Shifters over the current, cheaper 4++ Phase Shifters (though at least D-lords can now take them).
Scarabs are much more expensive now and their Entropic Strike is no longer scary at all.
These are just some of the less obvious nerfs.
Take comfort, though, in the fact that Necrons are hardly alone in this matter-- the 7th ed Orks, Blood Angels, and Dark Eldar all seemed to be severely rebalanced in the same way (I'm uncertain whether I could say the same about SW and GK). GW seems to be trying to completely reshift the competetive environment by severely toning down most of their 7th ed books. Either way, take heart in the fact that Necrons definitely aren't at the bottom of the board in terms of competetiveness.
I think something that everyone needs to keep in mind, is it actually took a while before the real competitive Necrons in 5th edition took off.
A lot of people considered the 5th edition Necron book very bad upon release, the only competitive build that was around for a very long time, was the Imotekh Scarab build. The actual first build that won a tournament was a Tremor-Cron build, both of which were not nearly as competitive as the Wraith-wing, Abarge spam that developed later. Upon release, most players actually though wraiths were garbage!
I think you're looking all the negatives here Jy2, and ignoring a lot of the positives here.
For instance, Yes we lost the semp weave and 3++. However, the new RP is significantly better on multiwound characters. I think it would be a serious issue having a bunch of Overlords/Dlords running around with the 2+ and the current RP. I don't think anyone can objectively say that wouldn't be too powerful.
I'm not a big fan of the Phase shifter nerf, but I can understand why.
let's look at the major nerfs to competitive builds.
-Night Scythes more expensive
-Abarges more expensive.
I think everyone saw those two coming.
-Warriors now 10 man minium
-Dlords worse
-Loss of Weave, 3++, MSS
So, yeah, pretty big nerfs. look at what we gained
RP got a huge buff. No longer being able to deny it by wiping out a squad, or loosing models in cc and being swept, and it is signicantly better on Multi-wound models.
That alone is pretty huge. It doesn't make Warriors or Immortals quite near a liability anymore.
-Nearly everything but the aforementioned got either cheaper, better or in most cases both.
Tomb Blades for example, got significantly cheaper, their upgrades got significantly cheaper, and they are flat out better thanks to the new RP.
Abarges got a price increase, but we can now take the Obelisk, which is much better. Av 14 all around, and with 4 Tesla spheres, it can put out more firepower than 3 abarges, it's faster, and significantly more durable. It's 30 points more than the old Abarge, and it's way better.
Wraiths, somehow got better. I did the math on having a Dlord Meat shielding. and the result was that wound-wise the Wraiths take .3 more wounds from Strength 4, but at Strength 5 and above, the T5 wins out.
Overall, I think, like most competitive builds, it'll just take time to find the right spam build. The codex feels very competitive to me, and brimming with options.
jy2 wrote: Yes, it has changed. Croissants are just too expensive to spam nowadays. Sure, you may still see some people spam them, but the majority of players IMO will be running 2-3 at most.
Personally, I will probably continue to run 3 night scythes, or 2 night scythes and 1 ghost ark.
Im big on the tomb blades atm... surprised you didn't give them ignore cover for a measly 2 points a pop. No real effect here as your facing marines but against GEQ its disgusting.
Night Scythe spam is effectively dead but with the change to reanimation protocols the steel curtain is back. Could actually see people play horde necrons competitively.
I did have 30-pts left, of which I spent 17 to buy 1 more immortal (thus, the unit of 6). I could have very well bought the Ignore Cover, but yeah, against my opponent's army, it wouldn't have mattered too much.
Actually, I noticed I just made a mistake in my list. I paid 2-pts for the Stealth ability when it actually only costs 1-pt so I actually had 37-pts left over, or 20-pts after adding the extra immortal.
Eyjio wrote: Whilst I agreed with the rest of your post, I really disagree with your assessment here. Flayed ones are effectively MEQ with 5 attacks on the charge. Sure, they are hit hard by AP4, in particular Heavy Flamers and Heavy Bolters, but at the end of the day they will still get an effective FNP roll. They're more chaff than a serious unit, but the potential for board control is now much greater. I think they'll feature in a good deal of lists going to early tournaments after this codex drop, just because it's quite cheap to drop a blob of them. Not entirely sure what you mean about rerolls - there's no reroll to hit if that's what you mean, but they do have shred meaning they're massively effective regardless.
Praetorians I would mostly agree with, but my provioso would be that really, T5 3+ with FNP basically added on is not really easy to get through. Used as deep strike units, I believe they could be very good.
Tomb blades I don't rate much better than they ever have been. They dropped 2 points, and in return gained reasonably priced wargear+FNP. If you're not running them in units of 6+ or with upgrades, they're barely better than they were before. I personally think the particle beamer is surprisingly bad (much less likely to hit than TL Gauss except vs large units, can't hurt tougher vehicles). I just don't see the massive value gain compared to, say, destroyers who more than doubled their survivability (not that I'm saying destroyers are good now, though I'll give them a go). A good unit, but I'm not convinced it's any more usable than before. At the end of the day, you're still trying to ram a jetbike right next to vehicles to glance them to death - that's great and all, and most likely needed with almost all the anti-tank stuff gone from the codex, but is that really all that great?
I am also of the opinion that a Ghost Ark is a necessity now. Objective Secured AV13 is solid and it really helps out VS tyranids. The 10 shots at 24" range is nice too (or 20 if you get lucky and can fire both sides). As for the Decurion, the issue I've been having is that all the "good" units I want to use- Stalkers, Annihilation Barges, Wraiths, Heavy Destroyers; are all locked up in formations with less useful stuff. A 110 point tax for Wraiths or 280 to get in Stalkers is really harsh, and Annihilation Barges didn't need the extra cost though I feel Doomsday Arks might be worth trialling again - the S10 AP1 shot is much better with Primary Weapon and the S8 AP3 blast is actually usable, unlike the S7 AP4 one from before. Honestly, I think I've underrated it as a unit; it's a Vindicator which can fire across the whole board with better armour - not the worst thing I've ever heard. I agree that this is not the most competitive codex in the world, but I think it has a few cool tricks up its sleeve.
Mainly because of their speed, or rather, lack of. While infiltrate helps, they are otherwise slow as gak. The BC units I usually advocate are very fast units. At the very minimum, I want Fleet in my units (if not a 12" standard movement).
Also, in competitive play, there are some units that they just won't do very well against. They cannot hurt wraithknights, which are very common in the competitive meta, nor can they do anything to Imperial Knights (or any non-AV10 walkers).
Moreover, another competitive unit - the Tau Fireblade Cadre - will just tear them to shreds, and that's not including all the other shooting in the Tau army.
FO's are a good unit, but they are not an all-star unit that belongs in every Necron list (like wraiths).
Though I admit that I am slightly intrigued about the possibility of running 60 FO's backed up by 18 wraiths and 2 Destroyer Lords. That is a really unbalanced army that also looks fun as heck to play.
What I mean by re-rolls is that most good assault units have access to re-rolls to hit, either via Hatred or Psychic Powers or whatever. Though in fairness, when I made the statement, I forgot about the Shred ability of the FO's.
Tomb blades functionally are the same as before. However, why they are good is that a unit that once used to cost 200-pts for 4 (with 3+, Stealth and particle beamers) now only cost 92-pts! That is more than 117% cheaper than before for a unit that is actually pretty good! And now, it can ignore cover as well!
Ghost Ark will only be ObSec if you are running a standard CAD. They have always been a decent investment but now, especially with the increase in cost to the night scythes, they may take an even larger role in the army.
Yeah, there is just so many "tax" units to run the Decurion formations that I'm finding it hard to build a fat-free competitive Necron list with it. My early prognosis is that a lot of competitive players will just skip the Decurion detachment and run regular CAD if they want a leaner, more optimized army build. The codex is still good. It just isn't a no-brainer type of good anymore.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea I think flayed ones will be in many tournament builds honestly, heck if you can even go MSU in the decurion and use 5 man deepstriking units to claim maelstrom objectives similar to how nids use lictors. Use zandrek and you can choose the worlord traits that manipulate reserves.
As far as anti tank I think you pretty much need to use tomb blades and heavy destroyers. I'd always opt for ignores cover on the tomb blades and I'd stick with the gaus blaster every time as well. The particle caster seems ok, but blasts are crazy under whelming in this edition and you need that gaus to strip HP on vehicles.
At their current price point though I can't see why you wouldn't take flayed ones and tomb blades. They are probably the best board control models for their cost. These guys can even mulch bloodthirsters!
I don't see the TB as being decent AT. Relying on glancing a vehicle to death with just 10 shots (because you really don't want them to be within rapid-fire range of most vehicles) just isn't a reliable option for a unit that is 240-pts and whom will attract a lot of firepower. Because the TB's will be a high-priority target.
Heavy Destroyers are not great at AT either. With a unit of 3, on average, 2 will hit (even with Prefered Enemy). Then cover/jink will on average make it just 1 roll on the damage charts. It could potentially take 3 turns just to kill a rhino! But then, if you normally run Ravagers in a DE army, you'd probably already know that.
Their best AT is still in the form of massed Tesla Destructors. The 2nd best - haywire crypteks - are now gone. Ranged AT is now once again a problem again for Necrons.
I'm actually not certain that you need tin cans for all of the troops, even at a competitive level. They are incredibly durable (saving 75% of all incoming wounds that aren't AP 4 or better for warriors). And the tanks are so expensive for no obsec. Night Scythes are probably the way to go for AA, which is otherwise sorely lacking, but as you point out it gets so expensive so fast. Min points investment for reclamation legion would be throwing a barebones overlord into your immortal unit (which I'm not a huge fan of since slay the warlord becomes much easier than even the new barge lord), and that still comes out to 875 (because I mean, those tomb blades are going to have Neb scopes). Personally, I think I would rather just have 1/2 night scythes and reserve a troop or two. Saves a ton of points and while it skimps on AA, I feel like Necrons might be in league with Daemons in terms of ground control and mostly being able to ignore AA.
FWIW, I like the stalker for ranged AT (even if it's not too long ranged). Or you could just go all things shaped like wraiths and take ancanthracites haha. Their effective threat range is almost more than that of melee threat range
2015/02/01 16:35:16
Subject: 1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets
Take comfort, though, in the fact that Necrons are hardly alone in this matter-- the 7th ed Orks, Blood Angels, and Dark Eldar all seemed to be severely rebalanced in the same way (I'm uncertain whether I could say the same about SW and GK). GW seems to be trying to completely reshift the competetive environment by severely toning down most of their 7th ed books. Either way, take heart in the fact that Necrons definitely aren't at the bottom of the board in terms of competetiveness.
Oh, they're not bad at all. They just aren't the same no-brainer type of good that they used to be.
One thing I'd like to note is that it is still too early to tell with regards to how competitive they really are. Other than Fast Attack-heavy builds, there really isn't any obvious stand-out builds that I can see currently (like there was with the previous codex), but I suspect that may change in time as people get more familiar with the codex.
I think something that everyone needs to keep in mind, is it actually took a while before the real competitive Necrons in 5th edition took off.
A lot of people considered the 5th edition Necron book very bad upon release, the only competitive build that was around for a very long time, was the Imotekh Scarab build. The actual first build that won a tournament was a Tremor-Cron build, both of which were not nearly as competitive as the Wraith-wing, Abarge spam that developed later. Upon release, most players actually though wraiths were garbage!
I think you're looking all the negatives here Jy2, and ignoring a lot of the positives here.
For instance, Yes we lost the semp weave and 3++. However, the new RP is significantly better on multiwound characters. I think it would be a serious issue having a bunch of Overlords/Dlords running around with the 2+ and the current RP. I don't think anyone can objectively say that wouldn't be too powerful.
I'm not a big fan of the Phase shifter nerf, but I can understand why.
let's look at the major nerfs to competitive builds.
-Night Scythes more expensive
-Abarges more expensive.
I think everyone saw those two coming.
-Warriors now 10 man minium
-Dlords worse
-Loss of Weave, 3++, MSS
So, yeah, pretty big nerfs. look at what we gained
RP got a huge buff. No longer being able to deny it by wiping out a squad, or loosing models in cc and being swept, and it is signicantly better on Multi-wound models.
That alone is pretty huge. It doesn't make Warriors or Immortals quite near a liability anymore.
-Nearly everything but the aforementioned got either cheaper, better or in most cases both.
Tomb Blades for example, got significantly cheaper, their upgrades got significantly cheaper, and they are flat out better thanks to the new RP.
Abarges got a price increase, but we can now take the Obelisk, which is much better. Av 14 all around, and with 4 Tesla spheres, it can put out more firepower than 3 abarges, it's faster, and significantly more durable. It's 30 points more than the old Abarge, and it's way better.
Wraiths, somehow got better. I did the math on having a Dlord Meat shielding. and the result was that wound-wise the Wraiths take .3 more wounds from Strength 4, but at Strength 5 and above, the T5 wins out.
Overall, I think, like most competitive builds, it'll just take time to find the right spam build. The codex feels very competitive to me, and brimming with options.
5E Necrons had some really good, competitive builds from the get-go. Scarab-farm, wraithwing and my own MTO Necrons were already very good armies from the very start. And then 6th Ed. came along and brought on the Necron Airforce with the new flyer rules. I felt that the old Necrons were very strong when they first came out.
BTW, I believe Eric Hoerger won St. Valentine's Day Massacre GT with wraithwing Necrons (18 wraiths) before Alex Fennel won a GT with his Tremor-crons (I think it was Alex).
But just to give you a little insight to my thought process. I arrive at the LGS and got my codex. My friend arrives very shortly afterwards for a scheduled game. I take only about 20 minutes or so to build a list before playing against him. You can imagine some of my frustration as I try to build lists that I thought would be good but then find problems when trying to build those lists. This is really before I've had enough time to really digest the new codex and to play around with list tinkering. This is also my first impressions about the new codex.
Yes, I realize that there are a lot of positives about the new codex. Personally, I myself have not been spending too much time in the Necron rumours section so a lot of the stuff in the codex was somewhat new to me. But at the time of the game, I was really having trouble putting together an army list that I really liked.
I actually don't think RP got better. As a matter of fact, I actually feel that it got worse in a way. Now, VoF (volume-of-fire) will kill your unit. Previously, say, my opponent kills my bargelord. That's fine. At the end of the turn, all it takes is a 4+ and he gets right back up. But now, once he goes down, he goes down for good. Also, if you kill the barge, then he can't even get back up at all! The old RP would help to offset VoF, which is one of the main weaknesses of the crons. But now, VoF will just as easily kill Necrons as it would any other unit with FNP. I'm just not a fan of the new RP.
I'm sure I will be more happy the more I play with the new Necrons - especially with the newer and better units - but my first impressions of it is that it just isn't as good as the previous edition. Sorry for pulling a Reece-Tyranids-episode on all the Necron players here.
Mephrit list with a c'tan and NO GODSHACKLE? Time to riot!
I'm in the same boat Jim, I think the Decurion is a trap-you end up sinking too many pts into sub-optimal units for it to be 'top tier.'
2013 Nova Open Tournament Champ- 2014 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/13th overall 2014 NOVA Open Second to One 2015 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/10th overall
thanatos67 wrote: Mephrit list with a c'tan and NO GODSHACKLE? Time to riot!
I'm in the same boat Jim, I think the Decurion is a trap-you end up sinking too many pts into sub-optimal units for it to be 'top tier.'
Lol. Yeah, I should have ran the C'tan formation with Godshackles, but it was a rush job trying to digest the new codex and make a list for the upcoming battle. I just forgot about it. And I agree with you on the listbuilding. I'm having a hard time coming up with what I feel is a 'top-tier' Necron list with the Decurion detachment. Usually, a top-tier list has almost no fat, but that is just something that is very hard to do when you have to incur soooo many tax units. Man, I hate this taxation without representation.
I think I will probably end up just running a CAD or the Mephrit detachment.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/01 16:43:09
See I think its that we come from very conflicting philosophies. You are from the Spam variety of player, while I am more of a synergy person who takes as much variety as I can. Heavy destroyers may not seem great alone, but add a triarch stalker and suddenly they hit on 2's rerolling 1's, thats awesome AT and anti MC. Cover could be a problem, but cover is an issue for 9/10 of the units out their. Use a mob of flayed ones as a screen and now you have a decent fire base that is difficult to assault.
Tomb blades have that magic solution to that aged old issue of cover I mentioned earlier. Never take an ignores cover option lightly. Wave serpents will be a problem with out these guys. 10 cost 220 with vanes and scopes and average 18 hits and 3 ignores cover HP while at 12" and I honestly would not be afraid of the 10 guardians/dires inside who won't dent the tomb blades with shooting of assault.
This new book is great IMO but will require a conductor of a general using the right tool for the right task at the right time in order to make it work best. The best part of the book however is that unlike most armies it's incredibly durable making it more forgiving.
I agree with all the nerfs you listed earlier btw, but honestly most of the items on that list were fairly obvious adjustments. An assault 4! haywire weapon on a unit that can literally be deployed anywhere on the table isn't good game design, it's easy mode. NS and AB were criminally undercost as well and jinking an AV13 piece of artillery shouldn't be automatic, it should be a choice which is why tesla needed a nerf.
MSS was also criminal, no piece of gear should make another players unit kill itself, I think fear is rubbish and perhaps found a better incarnation of it, but it needed to go because it was another one of those items that required little skill and allowed things like CCB's and Dlords to go where they should think twice without batting an eye.
The min 10 warriors and increase to scarabs were unecessary ninja taxes I agree, but so many things got cheaper I won't complain.
I mean flayed ones got better a lot better. I only wish my hellions, bloodbrides, wyches and wracks could say the same, even one in fact
Also prats can't fit inside NS do to being jump pack infantry. Unless you meant lychguard.
Welcome to the newest Necron discrepancy. Praetorians can buy a NS as a dedicated transport. So either GW assumes they can ride in it or we inexplicably have a unit capable of buying a transport it can never, ever utilize.
My space marine bike/jump pack command squad can also buy a rhino. Wanna let me start them in it too?
You're missing the point. That command squad can also be purchased as regular infantry and thus has a viable, legal option to use their DT. Praetorians have no such option. Its a weird discrepancy.
I am not missing the point though. Currently the rules disallow jump pack infantry from riding in a tranport without specific permission like the storm raven. The NS currently lacks that permission. RAW they can't embark, RAI is anyones guess. If you buy praetorians and then buy a NS from FA can they embark?
Understand the RAW. I've been following the YMDC thread. This is more an expression of frustration that the Necron Codex allows the player to purchase a seemingly useless DT option. Either GW envisioned the Praetorian would be able to use their own dedicated transport or its a cut and paste error. Until an FAQ comes out, I'll err in my opponents favor and allow Praetorians to roll around in their DT Nightscythe. Its not the universal solution, but it seems like the common sense solution until an FAQ settles the debate. No other Codex has a similar discrepancy so there is no comparable analogy or a precedent FAQ to follow.
But A night scythe is more then just a transport, it's a support vehicle just like razorbacks, venoms and landraiders are support vehicles. Maybe the intent was to allow praetorians to be selected with a support vehicle that normally would take their slot? See, the guessing game opens too many doors.
Example, RAI I am of the firm belief that flayed ones were a copy paste error. I believe the text "already included in there profile" was intended next to those flayer claws but was left out, after all no 13 point model has any business sharing the same attacks as a SM captain. In the sense of a FAQ they will benefit, and greatly might I add.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/01 16:51:32
thanatos67 wrote: Mephrit list with a c'tan and NO GODSHACKLE? Time to riot!
I'm in the same boat Jim, I think the Decurion is a trap-you end up sinking too many pts into sub-optimal units for it to be 'top tier.'
Lol. Yeah, I should have ran the C'tan formation with Godshackles, but it was a rush job trying to digest the new codex and make a list for the upcoming battle. I just forgot about it. And I agree with you on the listbuilding. I'm having a hard time coming up with what I feel is a 'top-tier' Necron list with the Decurion detachment. Usually, a top-tier list has almost no fat, but that is just something that is very hard to do when you have to incur soooo many tax units. Man, I hate this taxation without representation.
I think I will probably end up just running a CAD or the Mephrit detachment.
I think mephrit+tau cad is going to be brutal. Wraiths offer great combat functionality to back up crisis/broadsides with skyray support. Crontau or cron+enclaves will probably be top tier, or at the very least 1.5 tier with the ability to win major tournaments in the hands of a good general. I think cron shooting options are fairly weak outside of massed small arms+stalker support.
2013 Nova Open Tournament Champ- 2014 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/13th overall 2014 NOVA Open Second to One 2015 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/10th overall
Tomb blades functionally are the same as before. However, why they are good is that a unit that once used to cost 200-pts for 4 (with 3+, Stealth and particle beamers) now only cost 92-pts! That is more than 117% cheaper than before for a unit that is actually pretty good! And now, it can ignore cover as well!
Just don't forget that you can't have Nebuloscopes and Shadowlooms.
Also Shadowlooms don't actually give stealth, they give you +1 to cover. So if you can get stealth on them they'll have a 2+ Jink.
My win rate while having my arms and legs tied behind by back while blindfolded and stuffed in a safe that is submerged underwater:
100%
2015/02/01 18:33:44
Subject: 1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets
Red Corsair wrote: See I think its that we come from very conflicting philosophies. You are from the Spam variety of player, while I am more of a synergy person who takes as much variety as I can. Heavy destroyers may not seem great alone, but add a triarch stalker and suddenly they hit on 2's rerolling 1's, thats awesome AT and anti MC. Cover could be a problem, but cover is an issue for 9/10 of the units out their. Use a mob of flayed ones as a screen and now you have a decent fire base that is difficult to assault.
Tomb blades have that magic solution to that aged old issue of cover I mentioned earlier. Never take an ignores cover option lightly. Wave serpents will be a problem with out these guys. 10 cost 220 with vanes and scopes and average 18 hits and 3 ignores cover HP while at 12" and I honestly would not be afraid of the 10 guardians/dires inside who won't dent the tomb blades with shooting of assault.
This new book is great IMO but will require a conductor of a general using the right tool for the right task at the right time in order to make it work best. The best part of the book however is that unlike most armies it's incredibly durable making it more forgiving.
I agree with all the nerfs you listed earlier btw, but honestly most of the items on that list were fairly obvious adjustments. An assault 4! haywire weapon on a unit that can literally be deployed anywhere on the table isn't good game design, it's easy mode. NS and AB were criminally undercost as well and jinking an AV13 piece of artillery shouldn't be automatic, it should be a choice which is why tesla needed a nerf.
MSS was also criminal, no piece of gear should make another players unit kill itself, I think fear is rubbish and perhaps found a better incarnation of it, but it needed to go because it was another one of those items that required little skill and allowed things like CCB's and Dlords to go where they should think twice without batting an eye.
The min 10 warriors and increase to scarabs were unecessary ninja taxes I agree, but so many things got cheaper I won't complain.
I mean flayed ones got better a lot better. I only wish my hellions, bloodbrides, wyches and wracks could say the same, even one in fact
That is true. Competitively, I tend to spam units. However, for fun, I prefer to run more Synergistic lists, like my Funcrons or my Highlander Necrons.
Ignore cover on a unit of tomb blades is definitely very useful. My only concern is that mobile shooty armies like mechdar, flyrant-spam, flyers, deepstriking crisis suits and other such units will deflate their usefulness very quickly. But otherwise, they are a very good unit that deserves to be in most lists.
I do agree that the book has become even more of a thinking-man's codex compared to the previous edition. You really have to put a lot more thought into both list-building as well as strategic play with the new Necrons compared to previously.
Tomb blades functionally are the same as before. However, why they are good is that a unit that once used to cost 200-pts for 4 (with 3+, Stealth and particle beamers) now only cost 92-pts! That is more than 117% cheaper than before for a unit that is actually pretty good! And now, it can ignore cover as well!
Just don't forget that you can't have Nebuloscopes and Shadowlooms.
Also Shadowlooms don't actually give stealth, they give you +1 to cover. So if you can get stealth on them they'll have a 2+ Jink.
That's a good distinction, especially if you get the Warlord trait Stealth in Ruins.
thanatos67 wrote: Mephrit list with a c'tan and NO GODSHACKLE? Time to riot!
I'm in the same boat Jim, I think the Decurion is a trap-you end up sinking too many pts into sub-optimal units for it to be 'top tier.'
Lol. Yeah, I should have ran the C'tan formation with Godshackles, but it was a rush job trying to digest the new codex and make a list for the upcoming battle. I just forgot about it. And I agree with you on the listbuilding. I'm having a hard time coming up with what I feel is a 'top-tier' Necron list with the Decurion detachment. Usually, a top-tier list has almost no fat, but that is just something that is very hard to do when you have to incur soooo many tax units. Man, I hate this taxation without representation.
I think I will probably end up just running a CAD or the Mephrit detachment.
I think mephrit+tau cad is going to be brutal. Wraiths offer great combat functionality to back up crisis/broadsides with skyray support. Crontau or cron+enclaves will probably be top tier, or at the very least 1.5 tier with the ability to win major tournaments in the hands of a good general. I think cron shooting options are fairly weak outside of massed small arms+stalker support.
You don't even need to run Mephrit. Unless you really want the Solar Thermasite wargear, I'd rather go with regular CAD so you only need 2 troops and they are ObSec.
BTW, I am thinking about Necronids. Necrons+Leviathan can be a thing of beauty.
Wow so it looks like the new command barge can still do a lot of tanking. How do you like him compared to the old? Of course they are not quite as ridiculously durable now, but an overlord on a barge base is 35 points points cheaper than the old now.
Argel Tal and Cyrene: Still a better love story than Twilight
2015/02/02 00:15:35
Subject: 1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets
herpguy wrote: Wow so it looks like the new command barge can still do a lot of tanking. How do you like him compared to the old? Of course they are not quite as ridiculously durable now, but an overlord on a barge base is 35 points points cheaper than the old now.
Without MSS and the new RP they are incredibly vulnerable to assault actually. Just pick the barge and bust off the 3 HP's and they have no way to save the damage. From shooting you can make 1 very tank like still.
herpguy wrote: Wow so it looks like the new command barge can still do a lot of tanking. How do you like him compared to the old? Of course they are not quite as ridiculously durable now, but an overlord on a barge base is 35 points points cheaper than the old now.
That's mainly due to the Shroud + Thermasite (2+ rerollable armour save). A CAD Bargelord isn't that durable unfortunately.
My win rate while having my arms and legs tied behind by back while blindfolded and stuffed in a safe that is submerged underwater:
100%
2015/02/02 03:29:13
Subject: 1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets
Red Corsair wrote: See I think its that we come from very conflicting philosophies. You are from the Spam variety of player, while I am more of a synergy person who takes as much variety as I can. Heavy destroyers may not seem great alone, but add a triarch stalker and suddenly they hit on 2's rerolling 1's, thats awesome AT and anti MC. Cover could be a problem, but cover is an issue for 9/10 of the units out their. Use a mob of flayed ones as a screen and now you have a decent fire base that is difficult to assault.
Tomb blades have that magic solution to that aged old issue of cover I mentioned earlier. Never take an ignores cover option lightly. Wave serpents will be a problem with out these guys. 10 cost 220 with vanes and scopes and average 18 hits and 3 ignores cover HP while at 12" and I honestly would not be afraid of the 10 guardians/dires inside who won't dent the tomb blades with shooting of assault.
This new book is great IMO but will require a conductor of a general using the right tool for the right task at the right time in order to make it work best. The best part of the book however is that unlike most armies it's incredibly durable making it more forgiving.
I agree with all the nerfs you listed earlier btw, but honestly most of the items on that list were fairly obvious adjustments. An assault 4! haywire weapon on a unit that can literally be deployed anywhere on the table isn't good game design, it's easy mode. NS and AB were criminally undercost as well and jinking an AV13 piece of artillery shouldn't be automatic, it should be a choice which is why tesla needed a nerf.
MSS was also criminal, no piece of gear should make another players unit kill itself, I think fear is rubbish and perhaps found a better incarnation of it, but it needed to go because it was another one of those items that required little skill and allowed things like CCB's and Dlords to go where they should think twice without batting an eye.
The min 10 warriors and increase to scarabs were unecessary ninja taxes I agree, but so many things got cheaper I won't complain.
I mean flayed ones got better a lot better. I only wish my hellions, bloodbrides, wyches and wracks could say the same, even one in fact
That is true. Competitively, I tend to spam units. However, for fun, I prefer to run more Synergistic lists, like my Funcrons or my Highlander Necrons.
Ignore cover on a unit of tomb blades is definitely very useful. My only concern is that mobile shooty armies like mechdar, flyrant-spam, flyers, deepstriking crisis suits and other such units will deflate their usefulness very quickly. But otherwise, they are a very good unit that deserves to be in most lists.
I do agree that the book has become even more of a thinking-man's codex compared to the previous edition. You really have to put a lot more thought into both list-building as well as strategic play with the new Necrons compared to previously.
Tomb blades functionally are the same as before. However, why they are good is that a unit that once used to cost 200-pts for 4 (with 3+, Stealth and particle beamers) now only cost 92-pts! That is more than 117% cheaper than before for a unit that is actually pretty good! And now, it can ignore cover as well!
Just don't forget that you can't have Nebuloscopes and Shadowlooms.
Also Shadowlooms don't actually give stealth, they give you +1 to cover. So if you can get stealth on them they'll have a 2+ Jink.
That's a good distinction, especially if you get the Warlord trait Stealth in Ruins.
thanatos67 wrote: Mephrit list with a c'tan and NO GODSHACKLE? Time to riot!
I'm in the same boat Jim, I think the Decurion is a trap-you end up sinking too many pts into sub-optimal units for it to be 'top tier.'
Lol. Yeah, I should have ran the C'tan formation with Godshackles, but it was a rush job trying to digest the new codex and make a list for the upcoming battle. I just forgot about it. And I agree with you on the listbuilding. I'm having a hard time coming up with what I feel is a 'top-tier' Necron list with the Decurion detachment. Usually, a top-tier list has almost no fat, but that is just something that is very hard to do when you have to incur soooo many tax units. Man, I hate this taxation without representation.
I think I will probably end up just running a CAD or the Mephrit detachment.
I think mephrit+tau cad is going to be brutal. Wraiths offer great combat functionality to back up crisis/broadsides with skyray support. Crontau or cron+enclaves will probably be top tier, or at the very least 1.5 tier with the ability to win major tournaments in the hands of a good general. I think cron shooting options are fairly weak outside of massed small arms+stalker support.
You don't even need to run Mephrit. Unless you really want the Solar Thermasite wargear, I'd rather go with regular CAD so you only need 2 troops and they are ObSec.
BTW, I am thinking about Necronids. Necrons+Leviathan can be a thing of beauty.
....Actually. Wow. Yeah that really does address all of Necrons' weaknessses. Necronids....Tyracrons...the only thing left to decide is in what combination. Decurion + Tyranid CAD? Necron CAD + Leviathan? Some obsec would be nice so I think I would lean towards the former
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/02/02 03:32:49
2015/02/02 03:52:42
Subject: Re:1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets
5E Necrons had some really good, competitive builds from the get-go. Scarab-farm, wraithwing and my own MTO Necrons were already very good armies from the very start. And then 6th Ed. came along and brought on the Necron Airforce with the new flyer rules. I felt that the old Necrons were very strong when they first came out.
They were not seen as strong, when they first came out. Reece and Crew actually though the codex was really bad. It took several months before it to catch on that Wraiths were actually good.
BTW, I believe Eric Hoerger won St. Valentine's Day Massacre GT with wraithwing Necrons (18 wraiths) before Alex Fennel won a GT with his Tremor-crons (I think it was Alex).
I think you're right here, but that is nearly 4 months after release, which is kind of what I'm getting at.
But just to give you a little insight to my thought process. I arrive at the LGS and got my codex. My friend arrives very shortly afterwards for a scheduled game. I take only about 20 minutes or so to build a list before playing against him. You can imagine some of my frustration as I try to build lists that I thought would be good but then find problems when trying to build those lists. This is really before I've had enough time to really digest the new codex and to play around with list tinkering. This is also my first impressions about the new codex.
Well, 20 minutes isn't near enough time to look at a codex. It sounds like you were frustrated that you coulden't throw together a quick spam ABarges, nightscythes and Wraith list.
Yes, I realize that there are a lot of positives about the new codex. Personally, I myself have not been spending too much time in the Necron rumours section so a lot of the stuff in the codex was somewhat new to me. But at the time of the game, I was really having trouble putting together an army list that I really liked.
I actually don't think RP got better. As a matter of fact, I actually feel that it got worse in a way. Now, VoF (volume-of-fire) will kill your unit. Previously, say, my opponent kills my bargelord. That's fine. At the end of the turn, all it takes is a 4+ and he gets right back up. But now, once he goes down, he goes down for good. Also, if you kill the barge, then he can't even get back up at all! The old RP would help to offset VoF, which is one of the main weaknesses of the crons. But now, VoF will just as easily kill Necrons as it would any other unit with FNP. I'm just not a fan of the new RP.
In what way is volume of fire going to have a better chance of killing your unit now, than before? Before, if you wiped out the unit, you got no RP except for ever-living models. Now, you get a chance to save every unsaved wound you get. It's much better in assault as well.
Your Overlord now gets a 50% to save every wound he takes, and he has cheap IWND as well. By the same line of reasoning you are using here, the Overlord has a 50% to not get back up as well. The new RP clearly makes him more durable over a longer period of time, as with all the multiwound models, compared to before.
I'm sure I will be more happy the more I play with the new Necrons - especially with the newer and better units - but my first impressions of it is that it just isn't as good as the previous edition. Sorry for pulling a Reece-Tyranids-episode on all the Necron players here.
The previous competetive options got nerfed, it'll take time to find the combination in the new one.
If you have to take Flyrants to make Necrons competitive I think that says something. I for one look forward to not having to read 100+ more Batreps about how awesome is scythe-wraith spam with MSSDLs.
Lol I am tempted to sig that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/02 03:54:44
Well, illegal Necron list. You can't have more than one relic, much less relics from a different book on one character.
Also, such a boring way to play the new Necrons. Min/maxing with Scythes...again. And Wraith spam. Not very interesting.
Just my 2 cents, go ahead and light me up, internet.
Also, 5 Storm Talons? I would never play against that guy.
EDIT: I saw Nightshroud and thought the Nightmare Shroud >.> I don't know about the Exterminatus, but is there a relic called the nightshroud? I'll retract my statement if there is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/02 05:30:27
40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty
2015/02/02 05:31:08
Subject: Re:1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets (Battle Report Completed)
Wraiths cannot deepstrike, they don't have that ability they are Beasts not Jump Infantry (unless I missed something, but I don't think so). You also may want to rethink that Thermasite, Catacomb Command Barge is NOT an Overlord or Cryptek, it's a different entry, look at the unit composition to prove it.
but then again I think that they mean to allow the overlord ON the barge to select those items. Seems odd though that all other supplements disallow the mix/matching of relics between supplement/codex and the Necron one is allowing it
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/02 06:39:21
2015/02/02 05:44:56
Subject: 1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets
thanatos67 wrote: Mephrit list with a c'tan and NO GODSHACKLE? Time to riot!
I'm in the same boat Jim, I think the Decurion is a trap-you end up sinking too many pts into sub-optimal units for it to be 'top tier.'
Lol. Yeah, I should have ran the C'tan formation with Godshackles, but it was a rush job trying to digest the new codex and make a list for the upcoming battle. I just forgot about it. And I agree with you on the listbuilding. I'm having a hard time coming up with what I feel is a 'top-tier' Necron list with the Decurion detachment. Usually, a top-tier list has almost no fat, but that is just something that is very hard to do when you have to incur soooo many tax units. Man, I hate this taxation without representation.
I think I will probably end up just running a CAD or the Mephrit detachment.
Oh no. My requirements are an Overlord *le gasp*, 2 units of warriors, which we all know are far from good, especially with Relentless and Move Through Cover, and a 4+ FNP now. So terrible. And minimum 1 squad of Immortals? Meh, not so bad, since everyone will use them for night Scythes now. And Tomb Blades, god, Ignores Cover, Twin-Linked, S5 AP4 Rapid-fire Gauss on a Jetbike for a measly 22 points. God, this book sucks.
Not to mention Canoptek Harvest. Why have a scarab farm and Wraiths with Shred or a 4+ RP? Meh, just spam wraiths, that'll still work.
Yup, can't think of any reason at all to change the way we play Necrons.
40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty
2015/02/02 06:16:55
Subject: 1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets (Battle Report Completed)
krodarklorr wrote: Well, illegal Necron list. You can't have more than one relic, much less relics from a different book on one character.
Also, such a boring way to play the new Necrons. Min/maxing with Scythes...again. And Wraith spam. Not very interesting.
Just my 2 cents, go ahead and light me up, internet.
Also, 5 Storm Talons? I would never play against that guy.
EDIT: I saw Nightshroud and thought the Nightmare Shroud >.> I don't know about the Exterminatus, but is there a relic called the nightshroud? I'll retract my statement if there is.
This may be a YMDC thing, but there's nothing that says you can't mix and match the relics from Exterminatus and the Codex. You just can't take more than one Artefact of the Aeons on one model. The Exterminatus relics are separate from that rule. His only Artefact of the Aeons was the Nightmare shroud, which you are right about. Edge of Eternity and Solar Thermasite are both from Exterminatus.
I admit, I was hoping to see how jy2 would use destroyers etc, but come on... he only had a short amount of time with the codex, cut him some slack.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/02 06:18:36
2015/02/02 06:20:30
Subject: 1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets (Battle Report Completed)
krodarklorr wrote: Well, illegal Necron list. You can't have more than one relic, much less relics from a different book on one character.
Also, such a boring way to play the new Necrons. Min/maxing with Scythes...again. And Wraith spam. Not very interesting.
Just my 2 cents, go ahead and light me up, internet.
Also, 5 Storm Talons? I would never play against that guy.
EDIT: I saw Nightshroud and thought the Nightmare Shroud >.> I don't know about the Exterminatus, but is there a relic called the nightshroud? I'll retract my statement if there is.
This may be a YMDC thing, but there's nothing that says you can't mix and match the relics from Exterminatus and the Codex. You just can't take more than one Artefact of the Aeons on one model. The Exterminatus relics are separate from that rule. His only Artefact of the Aeons was the Nightmare shroud, which you are right about. Edge of Eternity and Solar Thermasite are both from Exterminatus.
I admit, I was hoping to see how jy2 would use destroyers etc, but come on... he only had a short amount of time with the codex, cut him some slack.
Well, if it's like literally any other supplement (Again, I don't own it, and can't read it), then you make your detachment from one of those books. One, or the other. Then you use the Relic associated with that book. That is how every supplement I've seen works. It also applies to the Warlord Traits and any additional special rules.
And I'm aware, I'm just saying that, come on man, next time look at other options. =P
40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty
2015/02/02 06:30:41
Subject: Re:1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets (Battle Report Completed)
herpguy wrote: Wow so it looks like the new command barge can still do a lot of tanking. How do you like him compared to the old? Of course they are not quite as ridiculously durable now, but an overlord on a barge base is 35 points points cheaper than the old now.
There is just no comparison. The old bargelord is much, much better than the new.
However, now they both serve very different purposes. Whereas the old bargelord was a beatstick unit, the new bargelord is more of a force-multiplier for the army. Comparing them currently is like comparing apples to oranges. Still, I like my beatstick characters and will miss them.
herpguy wrote: Wow so it looks like the new command barge can still do a lot of tanking. How do you like him compared to the old? Of course they are not quite as ridiculously durable now, but an overlord on a barge base is 35 points points cheaper than the old now.
Without MSS and the new RP they are incredibly vulnerable to assault actually. Just pick the barge and bust off the 3 HP's and they have no way to save the damage. From shooting you can make 1 very tank like still.
Don't forget the loss of Sweep Attacks means that they can only kill 1 unit a turn now.
luke1705 wrote: ....Actually. Wow. Yeah that really does address all of Necrons' weaknessses. Necronids....Tyracrons...the only thing left to decide is in what combination. Decurion + Tyranid CAD? Necron CAD + Leviathan? Some obsec would be nice so I think I would lean towards the former
The world is your oyster. The possibilities are almost limitless when you throw in certain allies.
I've been thinking of a triple-flyrant, 18-wraith Necronid build as a highly competitive one.
Dozer Blades wrote: If you have to take Flyrants to make Necrons competitive I think that says something. I for one look forward to not having to read 100+ more Batreps about how awesome is scythe-wraith spam with MSSDLs.
Lol I am tempted to sig that.
You don't have to take them, but they do plug in a lot of holes that you will find with the new Necron codex.
Actually, like the Tau Firebase Cadre or the Eldar Summonseer, flyrant-spam makes a great addition to almost any army and not just Necrons.
krodarklorr wrote: Well, illegal Necron list. You can't have more than one relic,
Show me where it says that.
krodarklorr wrote: much less relics from a different book on one character.
The Mephrit supplement is not a codex on its own. It is basically an add-on to the main Necron codex. You can use any and all of the units and wargear in the main Necron book as long as you satisfy the Mephrit pre-requisites (i.e. 1 HQ + 3 Troops).
krodarklorr wrote: Also, such a boring way to play the new Necrons. Min/maxing with Scythes...again. And Wraith spam. Not very interesting.
Just my 2 cents, go ahead and light me up, internet.
Also, 5 Storm Talons? I would never play against that guy.
EDIT: I saw Nightshroud and thought the Nightmare Shroud >.> I don't know about the Exterminatus, but is there a relic called the nightshroud? I'll retract my statement if there is.
Fun is in the eye of the beholder. If you've read enough of my reports, you would know that probably about 90% of the time, my reports takes the perspective from the more competitive side of gaming. Thus, spamming and formations are very common in my reports. Of course it is your right not to like that style of play, but if you find it boring, then I suggest you skip my reports in the future.
And here's a penny, it's the change for your thoughts.
No, it is the Nightmare Shroud. I just got the name wrong.
z3n1st wrote: Wraiths cannot deepstrike, they don't have that ability they are Beasts not Jump Infantry (unless I missed something, but I don't think so). You also may want to rethink that Thermasite, Catacomb Command Barge is NOT an Overlord or Cryptek, it's a different entry, look at the unit composition to prove it.
Doh! Thanks for pointing it out.
Like I said, there will probably be mistakes made in this game (like my opponent taking Divination powers for his Librarian) as we are both new to our armies. I was thinking that wraiths were still Jump Infantry when I did my deployment. My bad.
thanatos67 wrote: Mephrit list with a c'tan and NO GODSHACKLE? Time to riot!
I'm in the same boat Jim, I think the Decurion is a trap-you end up sinking too many pts into sub-optimal units for it to be 'top tier.'
Lol. Yeah, I should have ran the C'tan formation with Godshackles, but it was a rush job trying to digest the new codex and make a list for the upcoming battle. I just forgot about it. And I agree with you on the listbuilding. I'm having a hard time coming up with what I feel is a 'top-tier' Necron list with the Decurion detachment. Usually, a top-tier list has almost no fat, but that is just something that is very hard to do when you have to incur soooo many tax units. Man, I hate this taxation without representation.
I think I will probably end up just running a CAD or the Mephrit detachment.
Oh no. My requirements are an Overlord *le gasp*, 2 units of warriors, which we all know are far from good, especially with Relentless and Move Through Cover, and a 4+ FNP now. So terrible. And minimum 1 squad of Immortals? Meh, not so bad, since everyone will use them for night Scythes now. And Tomb Blades, god, Ignores Cover, Twin-Linked, S5 AP4 Rapid-fire Gauss on a Jetbike for a measly 22 points. God, this book sucks.
Not to mention Canoptek Harvest. Why have a scarab farm and Wraiths with Shred or a 4+ RP? Meh, just spam wraiths, that'll still work.
Yup, can't think of any reason at all to change the way we play Necrons.
Obviously, we look at lists differently. My initial impressions was that I found it hard to build a Necron list that I really liked. That doesn't mean that they are bad. It just means that I will have to get used to the new way of running Necrons.
From the perspective of competitive play, I still think that there are too many "tax" units in the Decurion detachment. Now I may change my opinion after more experience with the new codex, but this is just my opinion of the codex so far. It's ok to disagree with it.
krodarklorr wrote: Well, illegal Necron list. You can't have more than one relic, much less relics from a different book on one character.
Also, such a boring way to play the new Necrons. Min/maxing with Scythes...again. And Wraith spam. Not very interesting.
Just my 2 cents, go ahead and light me up, internet.
Also, 5 Storm Talons? I would never play against that guy.
EDIT: I saw Nightshroud and thought the Nightmare Shroud >.> I don't know about the Exterminatus, but is there a relic called the nightshroud? I'll retract my statement if there is.
This may be a YMDC thing, but there's nothing that says you can't mix and match the relics from Exterminatus and the Codex. You just can't take more than one Artefact of the Aeons on one model. The Exterminatus relics are separate from that rule. His only Artefact of the Aeons was the Nightmare shroud, which you are right about. Edge of Eternity and Solar Thermasite are both from Exterminatus.
I admit, I was hoping to see how jy2 would use destroyers etc, but come on... he only had a short amount of time with the codex, cut him some slack.
Don't worry, I will definitely try out the other units.
However, between now and the LVO (less than 3 weeks away!), I really don't have a whole lot of time to do experimentation. Right now, my priority is to find a list that I like and to try to get it ready in time for the LVO.
krodarklorr wrote: Well, if it's like literally any other supplement (Again, I don't own it, and can't read it), then you make your detachment from one of those books. One, or the other. Then you use the Relic associated with that book. That is how every supplement I've seen works. It also applies to the Warlord Traits and any additional special rules.
And I'm aware, I'm just saying that, come on man, next time look at other options. =P
The supplement has no entries about any of the units. You have to refer to the main Necron codex for unit entries and wargear options. The only thing it has are 1) Mephrit Warlord traits, 2) 3 new unique wargear and 3) several new formations.
koooaei wrote: Seems you'll need some solid counter-assault to have some hope of dealing with newcrons.
It is basically the same counters to the new wraiths as it is to the old wraiths....volume-of-fire. And although they are now T5, it is arguably easier to deal with them because now, you can't run the mini-wraithstars with tanking Destroyer Lords (well, you can have 1 tanking D-lord).
I see the new wraithwing as having the same problems now as they did before.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/02 06:47:33
koooaei wrote: Seems you'll need some solid counter-assault to have some hope of dealing with newcrons.
I'll say, Flayed Ones, Wraiths, Praetorians, Lychguard, Relentless warriors. I mean, come on man. They have some omph now.
Exactly. They're good at getting into combat. The only way to counter it is to have at least part of your army being able to shield the shooty elements. Something like tau will have hard time dealing with all that super durable stuff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/02 06:52:44
2015/02/02 06:54:28
Subject: 1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets
krodarklorr wrote: Well, illegal Necron list. You can't have more than one relic,
Show me where it says that.
krodarklorr wrote: much less relics from a different book on one character.
The Mephrit supplement is not a codex on its own. It is basically an add-on to the main Necron codex. You can use any and all of the units and wargear in the main Necron book as long as you satisfy the Mephrit pre-requisites (i.e. 1 HQ + 3 Troops).
"Artefacts of the Aeons............pg.118. A Model may take one of the following."
You can't have more than one relic from the core book, though you were fine on that.
"Certain units chosen from the Mephrit Dynasty Detachment and Formations can also make use of the Relics and Warlord Traits listed below."
Technically speaking, you are correct, because of an oversight on Rules explanations on GW's part. The same paragraph for Blood Angels says "instead of". So, because of bad wording, you are A. Allowed to take multiple from a Mephrit Detachment, and B. Still allowed to take one from the codex.
This is a technicality. Though you are correct, you are also incorrect. Necrons did not have Warlord Traits, Detachments of their own, or Relics when this was released, so this was an easy oversight for GW. But, Exterminatus is a supplement, and like every supplement, and especially like the Blood angels portion of this supplement, it is it's own detachment, meant to represent the fight style and benefits of that Dynasty. So, if you use that as your main detachment, only Warlord Traits from it, and not the codex, and the Relics are also from Mephrit alone. Though, it is rather weird that the Mephrit relics don't have any kind of stipulation, yet the codex does. That is just weird, and also probably an oversight.
I would expect an FAQ to clarify this in the future, so I personally wouldn't get use to playing like that.
40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty
2015/02/02 07:16:09
Subject: Re:1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets
Sasori wrote: They were not seen as strong, when they first came out. Reece and Crew actually though the codex was really bad. It took several months before it to catch on that Wraiths were actually good.
I don't know about other people, but when the previous Necrons came out, I actually saw them as a very strong army.
But just to give you a little insight to my thought process. I arrive at the LGS and got my codex. My friend arrives very shortly afterwards for a scheduled game. I take only about 20 minutes or so to build a list before playing against him. You can imagine some of my frustration as I try to build lists that I thought would be good but then find problems when trying to build those lists. This is really before I've had enough time to really digest the new codex and to play around with list tinkering. This is also my first impressions about the new codex.
Well, 20 minutes isn't near enough time to look at a codex. It sounds like you were frustrated that you coulden't throw together a quick spam ABarges, nightscythes and Wraith list.
I'll admit that is more me than it is the codex. I'm just going to have to get used to the "new way" of running Necrons, but growing pains is never an easy process (unless, of course, the new codex was Eldar-esque).
I actually don't think RP got better. As a matter of fact, I actually feel that it got worse in a way. Now, VoF (volume-of-fire) will kill your unit. Previously, say, my opponent kills my bargelord. That's fine. At the end of the turn, all it takes is a 4+ and he gets right back up. But now, once he goes down, he goes down for good. Also, if you kill the barge, then he can't even get back up at all! The old RP would help to offset VoF, which is one of the main weaknesses of the crons. But now, VoF will just as easily kill Necrons as it would any other unit with FNP. I'm just not a fan of the new RP.
In what way is volume of fire going to have a better chance of killing your unit now, than before? Before, if you wiped out the unit, you got no RP except for ever-living models. Now, you get a chance to save every unsaved wound you get. It's much better in assault as well.
Your Overlord now gets a 50% to save every wound he takes, and he has cheap IWND as well. By the same line of reasoning you are using here, the Overlord has a 50% to not get back up as well. The new RP clearly makes him more durable over a longer period of time, as with all the multiwound models, compared to before.
RP has both gotten better and worse. For sure, it's better for normal units. However, it's worse for the units that used to have Ever-living.
Regular units get an extra save now. That is good. However, for multi-wound units, once you wipe them out, then they are gone without any chance to come back into play at all. VoF like mechdar, the Tau Firebase Cadre (or just Tau in general), flyrant-spam Tyranids, the centurionstar, etc. can put out more than enough dakka to reliably down even a character with FNP. In the old days, say, a unit of 3 broadsides fire at a character. Sure they may kill the character, but any excess wounds is then lost and the character still has a chance to get back up at the end of turn. Now, sure it takes more shots to down the character, but there are excess wounds in the wound pool that can and will be used for that purposes. Then he goes down and there is no way for him to get back up. Before, I've had bargelords/D-lords get back up multiple times. That just can't happen anymore. It may take more firepower to take him down, but once down, he is out for good.
BTW, the Overlord does not get a 50% chance to save every wound he takes (unless there is a cryptek in his unit). With re-roll 1's, he has a 39% chance to save a wound (compared to 33% without the re-roll 1's).
4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
