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I'd like to see your take on a Destroyer heavy list or just something that doesn't have Bargelords or Wraiths, like would you be willing to take a shot at a Competitive Army that doesn't have Wraiths or a Bargelord.

Everyone keeps saying, " The codex has multiple strong builds" , what's your take on that.

Btw have you considered an IK?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/591466.page

dakkas own oberron has a sweet conversion.

Also seen one with the wraith(?) from the tesseract vault kit mounted on the back of one likes it's hacking/possessing its machine spirit

I think it would be a solid answer to some of the necron issues.

PanzerLeader wrote:

DJ3 wrote:
The odds of killing the Bargelord are irrelevant; it was a shot to auto-win and had no downside...until the inexplicable decision to not go into ongoing reserves. But starting them on the table was absolutely the right call.

Disagree. Getting storm talons in off the long edge via outflank lets him come on behind night scythes (likely given the -1 to reserves) and mass his firepower much better in the H&A deployment as the Necrons emerge. Ongoing reserves off the short edge is not nearly as effective as ongoing reserves off the long in either of the other two standard deployments.

The odds matter because he traded late game positioning for a not very good chance of auto winning. Plus, with infiltrate he would get a chance to see the Necron deployment before committing them to outflanking. Going off turn two is a good move, but it's not as good as a few talons coming off the long edge later in the game when he can mass them against the right targets. His tactical marines have so much resiliency he could easily have held the center and then responded. Hell, with his warlord trait he could have deployed nothing, made Jy2 deploy, and then countered with 4 rhinos and 40 marines midfield and outflanked his last couple squads via scout. His army is build on resilient ObSec and shooty, but vulnerable, talons. Going 2nd accentuated the vulnerability of the talons to the night scythes and ongoing reserves in H&A doesn't help mitigate risk as much because jy2 can move his night scythes at acute angles to stay out of the assault cannons 60" threat range (cutting ~50% of the talons firepower) and then retaliate by zooming in 36" and using his Tesla. If the talons try to play the same game, the Necrons come out ahead as the fixed arc of the sky hammers means they will likely be unable to mass both weapons on the same target except those deepest in marine territory.

Going after the bargelord is a decent chess move, but a bad strategic maneuver.

Well, one thing I would have done had he chose to outflank his talons is to have most of my units on the table - the bargelord, C'tan and both wraiths. Then my strategy would have been to destroy all of his ground units when they come in (or if they deploy on the table).

 Red Corsair wrote:
Not implying this, but taking the Old Cron book over the new one might diminish any win you'd get anyway. I mean fielding a book where tesla is flat out better and on fliers and barges that are 30 points lighter with characters that are better offensively in every imaginable way including MSS just seems off.

I think I'd switch to a different army first if the winning was my first goal personally but that's just me.

I am sure you can come up with a solid list though. you have most of the best models now already, it's just finding the right strategy and mix.

The Oldcrons will be a longshot. However, they will be in my poll that I will put out later this week. If enough people actually vote for it, I might actually take it but for now, I don't think the chances of me running my Oldcrons will be very high.

Of course, you might even see my Pentyrant Tyranids at the tournament if enough people think I should bring it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Btw have you considered an IK?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/591466.page

dakkas own oberron has a sweet conversion.

Also seen one with the wraith(?) from the tesseract vault kit mounted on the back of one likes it's hacking/possessing its machine spirit

I think it would be a solid answer to some of the necron issues.

I actually haven't thought about teaming up Necrons + IK, though I have seen several of those combos at the last GT I went to (TSHFT).

However, I have thought about Adlance Knights as a possibility. I might throw that up there in the polls just for sh*ts and giggles.

 jy2 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

DJ3 wrote:
The odds of killing the Bargelord are irrelevant; it was a shot to auto-win and had no downside...until the inexplicable decision to not go into ongoing reserves. But starting them on the table was absolutely the right call.

Disagree. Getting storm talons in off the long edge via outflank lets him come on behind night scythes (likely given the -1 to reserves) and mass his firepower much better in the H&A deployment as the Necrons emerge. Ongoing reserves off the short edge is not nearly as effective as ongoing reserves off the long in either of the other two standard deployments.

The odds matter because he traded late game positioning for a not very good chance of auto winning. Plus, with infiltrate he would get a chance to see the Necron deployment before committing them to outflanking. Going off turn two is a good move, but it's not as good as a few talons coming off the long edge later in the game when he can mass them against the right targets. His tactical marines have so much resiliency he could easily have held the center and then responded. Hell, with his warlord trait he could have deployed nothing, made Jy2 deploy, and then countered with 4 rhinos and 40 marines midfield and outflanked his last couple squads via scout. His army is build on resilient ObSec and shooty, but vulnerable, talons. Going 2nd accentuated the vulnerability of the talons to the night scythes and ongoing reserves in H&A doesn't help mitigate risk as much because jy2 can move his night scythes at acute angles to stay out of the assault cannons 60" threat range (cutting ~50% of the talons firepower) and then retaliate by zooming in 36" and using his Tesla. If the talons try to play the same game, the Necrons come out ahead as the fixed arc of the sky hammers means they will likely be unable to mass both weapons on the same target except those deepest in marine territory.

Going after the bargelord is a decent chess move, but a bad strategic maneuver.

Well, one thing I would have done had he chose to outflank his talons is to have most of my units on the table - the bargelord, C'tan and both wraiths. Then my strategy would have been to destroy all of his ground units when they come in (or if they deploy on the table).

Normally a good counter move, but he gets to choose to outflank them at the deploy infiltrators step to deny you that flexibility. Plus his warlord trait would have allowed him to deploy 2 units of marines in outflank and then reserve that decision for 4 more units until the deploy infiltrators step.

Wraiths will still be Initiative 1 if they go through terrain. Beasts just ignore the -2 move penalty for terrain - they still go to Ini 1 :(.

It is in the rules - they become Ini 1 even if they are not slowed by difficult terrain.

As you Multiple/Divide, Add, and then Subtract you will still be In 1. Kind of annoying as you basically don't care about terrain - but then could you imagine daemon cav lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wraiths will still be Initiative 1 if they go through terrain. Beasts just ignore the -2 move penalty for terrain - they still go to Ini 1 :(.

It is in the rules - they become Ini 1 even if they are not slowed by difficult terrain.

As you Multiple/Divide, Add, and then Subtract you will still be In 1. Kind of annoying as you basically don't care about terrain - but then could you imagine daemon cav lists.

Hollismason wrote:
I'd like to see your take on a Destroyer heavy list or just something that doesn't have Bargelords or Wraiths, like would you be willing to take a shot at a Competitive Army that doesn't have Wraiths or a Bargelord.

Everyone keeps saying, " The codex has multiple strong builds" , what's your take on that.

A destroyer heavy list is potentially very good. Just take a look at the Farsight Enclaves to see kind of how they would play, with destroyers subbing in for deepstriking Crisis Suits.

However, I'm not so sure if I would make them the focus of my offense. There is just too much cover shenanigans in the game currently, with 3+ or even 2+ cover common with many armies. I am not sure their firepower is enough to carry the army against these types of armies. Instead, I see them more as using guerilla-hit-&-hide type of tactics, just like crisis suits. I see them more as complementary to the main offense, kind of like a hammer-&-anvil type of build. Maybe with the centerpiece being a deathstar-type unit like Lychguards/Praetorians + attached IC's or even wraithwing. Just like the suits in a Farsight Enclaves are used to support the riptides and broadsides (or the Farsight-bomb or mini-bomb), who are the main offense of the army.

Anyways, for my next battle, I do plan to run the Destroyer Cult. I might include some wraiths in there as well though. We'll see.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Well, one thing I would have done had he chose to outflank his talons is to have most of my units on the table - the bargelord, C'tan and both wraiths. Then my strategy would have been to destroy all of his ground units when they come in (or if they deploy on the table).

Normally a good counter move, but he gets to choose to outflank them at the deploy infiltrators step to deny you that flexibility. Plus his warlord trait would have allowed him to deploy 2 units of marines in outflank and then reserve that decision for 4 more units until the deploy infiltrators step.

This just seems so dirty. Before, you would have to declare that you are infiltrating, but looking at the rules again, now it doesn't seem as if you have to declare you will be infiltrating. So now, you can just declare outflanking at the infiltrator step. It's a subtle difference that I did not catch (due to not normally playing infiltrating armies).

But I learn something new every day. Thanks for the tip.

I kind of feel destroyers are especially viable now with the new RP rules and them having 2 wounds.

I dunno I kind of think the codex is a lot different and everyone seems to trying to go back to running what they did with the old codex.

 GoatboyBBMA wrote:
Wraiths will still be Initiative 1 if they go through terrain. Beasts just ignore the -2 move penalty for terrain - they still go to Ini 1 :(.

It is in the rules - they become Ini 1 even if they are not slowed by difficult terrain.

As you Multiple/Divide, Add, and then Subtract you will still be In 1. Kind of annoying as you basically don't care about terrain - but then could you imagine daemon cav lists.

Actually, they've changed the wording on the new wraiths.

Old Wraithflight rule: "....are never slowed by Difficult Terrain....".

New Wraithflight rule: ".....can move over other models and terrain as if they were open ground."

Open Ground is an actual terrain type. Thus, all terrain is considered Open Ground to them, which means they don't take the Initiative penalty.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
I kind of feel destroyers are especially viable now with the new RP rules and them having 2 wounds.

I dunno I kind of think the codex is a lot different and everyone seems to trying to go back to running what they did with the old codex.

Oh, they are definitely viable. What remains to be seen is just how to integrate them into a balanced TAC Necron list. That's going to require some list-brainstorming.

Where is the rule that says you can outflank at the deployment phase when they infiltrate ?

Nm found it

PanzerLeader wrote:
Disagree. Getting storm talons in off the long edge via outflank lets him come on behind night scythes (likely given the -1 to reserves) and mass his firepower much better in the H&A deployment as the Necrons emerge. Ongoing reserves off the short edge is not nearly as effective as ongoing reserves off the long in either of the other two standard deployments.

[...]

Going 2nd accentuated the vulnerability of the talons to the night scythes and ongoing reserves in H&A doesn't help mitigate risk as much because jy2 can move his night scythes at acute angles to stay out of the assault cannons 60" threat range (cutting ~50% of the talons firepower) and then retaliate by zooming in 36" and using his Tesla. If the talons try to play the same game, the Necrons come out ahead as the fixed arc of the sky hammers means they will likely be unable to mass both weapons on the same target except those deepest in marine territory.

Can't agree with this at all--especially when you're dealing with a -1 Reserve warlord trait, meaning your Stormtalons will be coming in piecemeal. That accentuates their weakness to the Night Scythes far more than anything else.

I'm not sure how Outflanking to come in behind Night Scythes is relevant, and it reeks of living in the past Codex--when you've got 5 Stormtalons, you can easily force Jink on 3 Night Scythes. Last week, a Stormtalon might have been afraid of a Jinking Night Scythe. Today? Not at all. If you're not afraid of the return fire, there's no upside to being behind them.

And your comments make it seem as if only one player is smart enough to play the positioning game, or worry about its importance--if jy2 is willing to come on at acute angles, forfeiting his Night Scythes' firepower (and deeply hampering the positioning of the units embarked within) for the turn, the Marine player could easily do the same with his Stormtalons--and he's going to win the war in the meantime as the Assault Cannon is still picking out targets midfield while your Flyers hug the board edges to avoid each other. But the more important fact is that the Marine player has more distinct resources to commit to the air game--if jy2 hugs the board edge to play a Flyer positioning game (I don't even agree that it would be the correct decision, given the amount of ObSec targets he has to eliminate in a limited timeframe) in the face of Ongoing Reserve'd Stormtalons, the Marine player can easily send three midfield to continue the fight while having two hang on the board edge as a counter if necessary.

But realistically we're just arguing about two entirely different ways the Marine player should have easily dominated the air game in that matchup, and instead made a rather awkward series of decisions that allowed him to lose it.

 jy2 wrote:
But now that you mentioned it, 6 stormtalons backed by 3 flyrants does sound kind of nasty. Of course I wouldn't be able to pick up any actual Maelstrom objective-objectives, but the sheer hilarity of running all those flyers would be a sight to behold indeed.....assuming the opponent doesn't throw up.

Somebody ran a very similar list at Renegade this year, but using the Astartes Storm Wing formation instead (1 Stormraven escorted by 2 Stormtalons on a single reserve roll) and it was one of those things that you absolutely heard people whispering about in the hallways ("oh my god somebody has nine flyers"). Three Flyrants and three Crones alongside it.

It was making a mess of all the Eldar lists, and I think he also beat a Tau army--I'm not sure if he had to play any of the Knight lists (there were a ton), but I imagine he'd have done fine against them. Unfortunately, I played him in the round of 8 with Relic as primary and he had no conceivable answer for a Screamerstar in that mission (or the Maelstrom secondary for that matter)--I was probably the only bad matchup he could have gotten from the remaining lists, as it was mostly Knights and Eldar.

DJ3 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
But now that you mentioned it, 6 stormtalons backed by 3 flyrants does sound kind of nasty. Of course I wouldn't be able to pick up any actual Maelstrom objective-objectives, but the sheer hilarity of running all those flyers would be a sight to behold indeed.....assuming the opponent doesn't throw up.

Somebody ran a very similar list at Renegade this year, but using the Astartes Storm Wing formation instead (1 Stormraven escorted by 2 Stormtalons on a single reserve roll) and it was one of those things that you absolutely heard people whispering about in the hallways ("oh my god somebody has nine flyers"). Three Flyrants and three Crones alongside it.

It was making a mess of all the Eldar lists, and I think he also beat a Tau army--I'm not sure if he had to play any of the Knight lists (there were a ton), but I imagine he'd have done fine against them. Unfortunately, I played him in the round of 8 with Relic as primary and he had no conceivable answer for a Screamerstar in that mission (or the Maelstrom secondary for that matter)--I was probably the only bad matchup he could have gotten from the remaining lists, as it was mostly Knights and Eldar.

Yeah, it's a very unbalanced build. It'll dominate most matchups but it does have problems against armies with a strong, extra-durable ground presence....or deathstar builds in missions like the Relic.

Still, it's a matchup nightmare for the majority of the armies out there.

Fortunately for all, I don't own a single stormtalon.

Looking forward to seeing how your experiment of attaching a D-Lord to new-Wraiths turns out.

 skoffs wrote:
Looking forward to seeing how your experiment of attaching a D-Lord to new-Wraiths turns out.

You can find my battle report with that combination here (on p. 2):


1850 Jy2's Las Vegas Open Experience - NecroNid Practice Game on p.2

NecroNid has a ring toit.

Anyone know what rule allowed jet bikes to deep strike? I don't see anything in the BRB that lets jet bikes deep strike and the tomb blades don't have that special rule.

Oops! My mistake.

Funny how no one caught it until now. Lol.

I only caught it because I wanted to be able to do it myself!

Hey,

I just want to say, that I do not like your transcendent C'tan; he seems to be modeled for advantage. So low on his base :/

No worries.

When I got him, he was part of the Tesseract Vault (already assembled) and sans the flight stick. I actually unmounted him from the Vault. I did not even know that he was supposed to be mounted on the flight stick initially.

But it doesn't matter, I don't run him competitively. I only use him in fun games or games of Escalation. And if my opponents take issue to his height, I will just raise him up or use the Nightbringer model instead. In any case, I always give my opponent the benefit of the doubt when it comes to LOS for the Transcendent.

 jy2 wrote:
No worries.

When I got him, he was part of the Tesseract Vault (already assembled) and sans the flight stick. I actually unmounted him from the Vault. I did not even know that he was supposed to be mounted on the flight stick initially.

But it doesn't matter, I don't run him competitively. I only use him in fun games or games of Escalation. And if my opponents take issue to his height, I will just raise him up or use the Nightbringer model instead. In any case, I always give my opponent the benefit of the doubt when it comes to LOS for the Transcendent.

Okay np, sorry!