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 Swastakowey wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Well now I'm undecided again.

I think its clear what it is meant to be, but as written technically it cannot be, unless we change the rules as per rules, to make it so.

Which we all do in numerous other examples (The SW Blizzard Shield for example). Also the kiss instructs us that a model equipped with it must make a kiss of death attack. So we have a direct conflict between rulebook and codex unless you're arguing that the Solitrair can never use his caress?

 Kriswall wrote:
Until such time as you show permission to ignore the BRB restriction on mixing and matching weapon abilities, it doesn't matter how the Kiss of Death weapon ability is worded. If you're not attacking with the Kiss, you can't use its abilities. That would literally be mixing and matching abilities. The BRB explicitly tells us this is forbidden. If the Kiss of Death special rule/weapon ability had wording that said "this special rule may be used even when not attacking with the Kiss", you'd be in business. There is no such wording, so you either need a house rule or an FAQ/Errata to allow the mixing and matching of weapon abilities.

It's not mixing and matching abilities. It's a piece of wargear. Saying you're mixing and matching abilities would be like telling someone they can either make an attack with their thunderhammer OR take 3++ saves from their stormshield.

And also, grenades.

Pages and pages and nobody seems able to cite actual rules showing the restriction from the BRB being overridden.

Because the wording of any sort of ability overrides the default rule. Sort of how Tau, utilizing Markerlights, can ignore the restrictions that must "always" take place in the BRB regarding snap firing.

The issue is you guys are placing a restriction on the Kiss of Death rule that is just not there in the language of the rule. It never says the wielder of the weapon must make attacks with the Harlequin's Kiss, but it does say someone with it equipped (which, again, simply means it's a thing they have default or have purchased and is a piece of wargear they have access to in the current game being played) makes an attack at S6 AP2.

Let's say he had a Harlequin's Embrace. Would you tell me he has to be wielding it in the combat in order to get the D3 Hammer of Wrath S6 hits, despite it simply saying a wielder must have it equipped? If your answer is "yes," then I guess Striking Scorpions can't actually use their Mandiblasters if they also want to make close combat attacks.

And again, no one would ever actually benefit from assault grenades unless assaulting a vehicle/MC that was in cover, and subsequently all grenade-dropped.

So, for me, personally, RAW? He makes one attack as Kiss of Death attack even when using the Caress. That's my interpretation of how it's all written.

Markerlights specifically state they can alter the BS of a snapshot

Please show the same language is in place for the HK. Page and graph.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Markerlights specifically state they can alter the BS of a snapshot

Please show the same language is in place for the HK. Page and graph.

So you can never use the caress? Is that your stance?

Okay, it seems there is a lot of discussion but not much RaW in here.

Firstly, i am still agreeing with Kriswall and Rigeld: A model can only use the rules on a weapon when he is striking blows with that weapon.
By RaW, if you use the Caress, you do not have access to the "Kiss of Death" USR.
When actually playing a game though, it is quite clear that "equipped" rules are meant to work "at any time" (as a few of the Eldar weapons show), and if i played a game against an opponent using the Caress, i would agree that one of the Attacks can be made with the "Kiss of Death".

So, why grenades work:

Rulebook wrote:Assault
Models equipped with assault grenades don’t suffer the penalty to their Initiative for charging enemies through difficult terrain, but fight at their normal Initiative in the ensuing combat.

This is not a Special rule on the weapon "Assault Grenade". If you believe it is, show me the "Frag Grenade" weapons profile.

Why the "Kiss of Death" cannot be activated when you are fighting with the Caress:

Rulebook wrote:It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type. That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

So:
A) models do not have special rules, unless:
B) It is in the model's list of "Special Rules" (Unit Entry).
C) It is listed in the Weapon's Profile.

And then weapons RaW:

Special Rules
The type section of a weapon’s profile also includes any special rules that apply to the weapon in question. More information on these can be found either in the special rules section or in the codex or army list entry the weapon is found in.

MORE THAN ONE WEAPON
Unless otherwise stated,(...) If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.

So, the "Special Rules" that apply to certain weapons are listed under the "TYPE" section, and these abilities cannot be mixed and matched: "he must choose which one to attack".

So the very final question about the Harlequins:
Where exactly are the Special Rules "Kiss of Death" and "Caress of Death" listed?

The answer to that question, if you have read my entire post, should indicate whether the ability can be used or not (by RaW)

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Markerlights specifically state they can alter the BS of a snapshot

Please show the same language is in place for the HK. Page and graph.

So you can never use the caress? Is that your stance?

You can use the Caress by attacking with it. When you attack with it, you do not benefit from the Kiss of Death weapon ability, so it doesn't matter how the Kiss is worded.

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Markerlights specifically state they can alter the BS of a snapshot

Please show the same language is in place for the HK. Page and graph.

So you can never use the caress? Is that your stance?

You can use the Caress by attacking with it. When you attack with it, you do not benefit from the Kiss of Death weapon ability, so it doesn't matter how the Kiss is worded.

Nope rules don't just disappear because you're not planing on using them. If equipped with a HK one of your attack is a kiss of death attack. This is not optional nor is it depending on using the weapon. So if I have a HK I have to make a KoD attack. Can I make that attack whilst swinging with a caress (or make use of assault grenades when swinging with a CCW, or have the 3++ from a blizzard shield against shooting or when using the Great Axe)?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nope rules don't just disappear because you're not planing on using them. If equipped with a HK one of your attack is a kiss of death attack. This is not optional nor is it depending on using the weapon.

Rulebook wrote:It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type. That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

Is the Harelquin using the Kiss?

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Markerlights specifically state they can alter the BS of a snapshot

Please show the same language is in place for the HK. Page and graph.

So you can never use the caress? Is that your stance?

No. Otherwise I would have said that was my stance.

My stance is that, now the GK NGS FAQ of old is gone, we have nothing allowing us to mix and match the abilities of different weapons based on "equipped" wording.

Do you have a specific rule allowing you to use both abilities? If so page and graph.

Does it matter? Whether the Harlequin is using the Kiss or not he must make a KoD attack if equipped with a Kiss. This is not optional.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does it matter? Whether the Harlequin is using the Kiss or not he must make a KoD attack if equipped with a Kiss. This is not optional.

Does he have use of that special rule when not using it? No, because of the rule about one or more weapon.

If you disagree, page and graph.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Markerlights specifically state they can alter the BS of a snapshot

Please show the same language is in place for the HK. Page and graph.

So you can never use the caress? Is that your stance?

No. Otherwise I would have said that was my stance.

My stance is that, now the GK NGS FAQ of old is gone, we have nothing allowing us to mix and match the abilities of different weapons based on "equipped" wording.

Do you have a specific rule allowing you to use both abilities? If so page and graph.

So how do I use the caress? I know every time I'm in combat I have to make a Kiss of Death attack if I am equipped with a HK. So how do I use the caress?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does it matter? Whether the Harlequin is using the Kiss or not he must make a KoD attack if equipped with a Kiss. This is not optional.

Does he have use of that special rule when not using it? No, because of the rule about one or more weapon.

If you disagree, page and graph.

Harlequin Codex page 91 column 2 paragraph 2 after bolded Kiss of Death.

Now prove a model not using a price of equipment is not equipped with that equipment (thus preventing them from ever using said gear).

So that specifically overrides "more than one weapon"?

I must have missed the specific reference to the rule. Coudl you type it out, so I can see where it is?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So that specifically overrides "more than one weapon"?

I must have missed the specific reference to the rule. Coudl you type it out, so I can see where it is?

I'm not talking about that rule. If equipped with a HK you must make a KoD attack. That is what KoD says and it means whether you are using the weapon or not. So prove I am not equipped with a HK when I am equipped with a HK. Page and paragraph.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does it matter? Whether the Harlequin is using the Kiss or not he must make a KoD attack if equipped with a Kiss. This is not optional.

It TOTALLY matters. The BRB very explicitly tells us we can't mix and match weapon abilities. You have yet to demonstrate that the model making the attack can benefit, in any way, shape or form, from the Kiss of Death weapon ability when not attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss weapon.

It is optional in that if you can choose not to use the Harlequin's Kiss when making attacks. If you do choose to use the Harlequin's Kiss, then I agree - you would have to use the Kiss of Death weapon ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So that specifically overrides "more than one weapon"?

I must have missed the specific reference to the rule. Coudl you type it out, so I can see where it is?

I'm not talking about that rule. If equipped with a HK you must make a KoD attack. That is what KoD says and it means whether you are using the weapon or not. So prove I am not equipped with a HK when I am equipped with a HK. Page and paragraph.

Dude... you're the one trying to override a BRB restriction here. We're not arguing how the Kiss of Death is written. Obviously, when attacking with the Kiss of Death, you use the rule. When not attacking with the Kiss of Death, you are explicitly forbidden from using its weapon abilities. If you think you can mix and match weapon abilities, simply cite permission to do so. Once you cite permission to mix and match weapon abilities when striking blows (not inferred permission... explicit permission), I'll gladly say you can use both abilities regardless of which weapon you're attacking with.

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does it matter? Whether the Harlequin is using the Kiss or not he must make a KoD attack if equipped with a Kiss. This is not optional.

It TOTALLY matters. The BRB very explicitly tells us we can't mix and match weapon abilities. You have yet to demonstrate that the model making the attack can benefit, in any way, shape or form, from the Kiss of Death weapon ability when not attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss weapon.

It is optional in that if you can choose not to use the Harlequin's Kiss when making attacks. If you do choose to use the Harlequin's Kiss, then I agree - you would have to use the Kiss of Death weapon ability.

Even if you choose not to attack with the Kiss you must make the KoD attack if you are equipped with it. So prove you are not equipped with the HK or you are arguing a Solitaire can never use his Caress. So page and paragraph that states you are not equipped with ite,ms when not using them.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does it matter? Whether the Harlequin is using the Kiss or not he must make a KoD attack if equipped with a Kiss. This is not optional.

It TOTALLY matters. The BRB very explicitly tells us we can't mix and match weapon abilities. You have yet to demonstrate that the model making the attack can benefit, in any way, shape or form, from the Kiss of Death weapon ability when not attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss weapon.

It is optional in that if you can choose not to use the Harlequin's Kiss when making attacks. If you do choose to use the Harlequin's Kiss, then I agree - you would have to use the Kiss of Death weapon ability.

Even if you choose not to attack with the Kiss you must make the KoD attack if you are equipped with it. So prove you are not equipped with the HK or you are arguing a Solitaire can never use his Caress. So page and paragraph that states you are not equipped with ite,ms when not using them.

The Solitaire is obviously equipped with the Kiss of Death. I grant you this. Quit stonewalling. Page and paragraph granting an explicit permission to override the BRB restriction on mixing and matching weapon abilities when striking blows. Please.

I agree the model is equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss. Now, your turn to prove he can use its abilities when not attacking with it.

Ah, so youre breaking the "more than one weapon" rule without permission, as you are using a special rule from a weapon you are not using

Good to know.

Dude... you're the one trying to override a BRB restriction here. We're not arguing how the Kiss of Death is written. Obviously, when attacking with the Kiss of Death, you use the rule. When not attacking with the Kiss of Death, you are explicitly forbidden from using its weapon abilities. If

You don't make a KoD attack when using a Kiss but when equipped with it. If equipped with it and striking blows in CC youmake a KoD attack. That is what the rules tell us. So either you can make a KoD attack whilst using the caress or you ccan't use the caress. Which is it?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does it matter? Whether the Harlequin is using the Kiss or not he must make a KoD attack if equipped with a Kiss. This is not optional.

It TOTALLY matters. The BRB very explicitly tells us we can't mix and match weapon abilities. You have yet to demonstrate that the model making the attack can benefit, in any way, shape or form, from the Kiss of Death weapon ability when not attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss weapon.

It is optional in that if you can choose not to use the Harlequin's Kiss when making attacks. If you do choose to use the Harlequin's Kiss, then I agree - you would have to use the Kiss of Death weapon ability.

Even if you choose not to attack with the Kiss you must make the KoD attack if you are equipped with it. So prove you are not equipped with the HK or you are arguing a Solitaire can never use his Caress. So page and paragraph that states you are not equipped with ite,ms when not using them.

...thus breaking the "more than one weapon" rule, as you are USING (for sure) a rule from a weapon you are nOT using.

Your false dichotomies get old. Try arguing without them.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, so youre breaking the "more than one weapon" rule without permission, as you are using a special rule from a weapon you are not using

Good to know.

You're breaking the KoD rule by attacking in CC and not making a KoD attack. Do you have an interpretation that doesn't break rules? Or does look at which rule we have to break between a Codex and BrB rule?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Dude... you're the one trying to override a BRB restriction here. We're not arguing how the Kiss of Death is written. Obviously, when attacking with the Kiss of Death, you use the rule. When not attacking with the Kiss of Death, you are explicitly forbidden from using its weapon abilities. If

You don't make a KoD attack when using a Kiss but when equipped with it. If equipped with it and striking blows in CC youmake a KoD attack. That is what the rules tell us. So either you can make a KoD attack whilst using the caress or you ccan't use the caress. Which is it?

Is the Kiss of Death a weapon ability? Yes.

Are you attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss? No.

Are you attacking with a different weapon but still using the Kiss of Death weapon ability? Yes.

Are you violating the BRB restriction on mixing and matching weapon abilities when striking blows? Yes.

Please provide page and paragraph demonstrating permission to mix and match weapon abilities when striking blows. This is a very simple request.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does it matter? Whether the Harlequin is using the Kiss or not he must make a KoD attack if equipped with a Kiss. This is not optional.

It TOTALLY matters. The BRB very explicitly tells us we can't mix and match weapon abilities. You have yet to demonstrate that the model making the attack can benefit, in any way, shape or form, from the Kiss of Death weapon ability when not attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss weapon.

It is optional in that if you can choose not to use the Harlequin's Kiss when making attacks. If you do choose to use the Harlequin's Kiss, then I agree - you would have to use the Kiss of Death weapon ability.

Even if you choose not to attack with the Kiss you must make the KoD attack if you are equipped with it. So prove you are not equipped with the HK or you are arguing a Solitaire can never use his Caress. So page and paragraph that states you are not equipped with ite,ms when not using them.

...thus breaking the "more than one weapon" rule, as you are USING (for sure) a rule from a weapon you are nOT using.

Your false dichotomies get old. Try arguing without them.

Please quote the rule that you are not equipped with a HK when not using it.

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does it matter? Whether the Harlequin is using the Kiss or not he must make a KoD attack if equipped with a Kiss. This is not optional.

It TOTALLY matters. The BRB very explicitly tells us we can't mix and match weapon abilities. You have yet to demonstrate that the model making the attack can benefit, in any way, shape or form, from the Kiss of Death weapon ability when not attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss weapon.

It is optional in that if you can choose not to use the Harlequin's Kiss when making attacks. If you do choose to use the Harlequin's Kiss, then I agree - you would have to use the Kiss of Death weapon ability.

Even if you choose not to attack with the Kiss you must make the KoD attack if you are equipped with it. So prove you are not equipped with the HK or you are arguing a Solitaire can never use his Caress. So page and paragraph that states you are not equipped with ite,ms when not using them.

...thus breaking the "more than one weapon" rule, as you are USING (for sure) a rule from a weapon you are nOT using.

Your false dichotomies get old. Try arguing without them.

Please quote the rule that you are not equipped with a HK when not using it.

I'm not disputing that. You obviously aren't reading my posts.

Is the model equipped with the Harlequin's Kiss when not using it? Yes.

Is the model allowed to mix and match in the Kiss of Death weapon ability when not attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss? No.

Please address the second question. Your answer seems to be yes and I'd like page and paragraph where you're getting your yes from. If you are unable to provide page and paragraph granting an explicit permission to override the BRB restriction on mixing and matching weapons, I would ask that you mark all future posts on the matter as HIWPI and allow the rest of us to debate RaW in peace.

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, so youre breaking the "more than one weapon" rule without permission, as you are using a special rule from a weapon you are not using

Good to know.

You're breaking the KoD rule by attacking in CC and not making a KoD attack. Do you have an interpretation that doesn't break rules? Or does look at which rule we have to break between a Codex and BrB rule?

The problem with the interpretation of "Breaking the Kiss of Death rule" is that you are only breaking the rule if you have the rule ("Kiss of Death")
And you only have the "Kiss of Death" special rule if you use a weapon with "Kiss of Death" found under the Weapon TYPE: Harlequin's kiss.

If you do not use the Harelquin's Kiss weapons, you do not have the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule (obtained only when striking blows with the weapon).

If you do not have the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule, how are you breaking the rule by striking blows with the Harelquin's Caress, and you only have the "Caress of Death" special rule?

Is the Kiss of Death a weapon ability? Yes.

Are you attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss? No.

Are you attacking with a different weapon but still using the Kiss of Death weapon ability? Yes.

Are you violating the BRB restriction on mixing and matching weapon abilities when striking blows? Yes.

Please provide page and paragraph demonstrating permission to mix and match weapon abilities when striking blows. This is a very simple request.

Are you attacking CC? Yes

Are you equipped with a Harlequins Kiss? Yes

Are you making a Kiss of Death attack? No

Please show permission to break that rule. Page and paragraph. This is a very simple request.

Or, more basically described:

What special rules does a Solitaire have when he is in CC and using the Harlequin's Caress?

Answer:
-Blitz
-Deep Strike
(etc)
-The Path of Damnation
-Caress of Death

He does not have the Special Rule, Kiss of Death (listed in a Weapon's profile he is not using)

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, so youre breaking the "more than one weapon" rule without permission, as you are using a special rule from a weapon you are not using

Good to know.

You're breaking the KoD rule by attacking in CC and not making a KoD attack. Do you have an interpretation that doesn't break rules? Or does look at which rule we have to break between a Codex and BrB rule?

The problem with the interpretation of "Breaking the Kiss of Death rule" is that you are only breaking the rule if you have the rule ("Kiss of Death")
And you only have the "Kiss of Death" special rule if you use a weapon with "Kiss of Death" found under the Weapon TYPE: Harlequin's kiss.

If you do not use the Harelquin's Kiss weapons, you do not have the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule (obtained only when striking blows with the weapon).

If you do not have the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule, how are you breaking the rule by striking blows with the Harelquin's Caress, and you only have the "Caress of Death" special rule?

The Kiss of Death rule explicitly applies whenever you are equipped with a Harlequins Kiss. You do not need to be striking blows with it. The KoD rule tells us this.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, so youre breaking the "more than one weapon" rule without permission, as you are using a special rule from a weapon you are not using

Good to know.

You're breaking the KoD rule by attacking in CC and not making a KoD attack. Do you have an interpretation that doesn't break rules? Or does look at which rule we have to break between a Codex and BrB rule?

The problem with the interpretation of "Breaking the Kiss of Death rule" is that you are only breaking the rule if you have the rule ("Kiss of Death")
And you only have the "Kiss of Death" special rule if you use a weapon with "Kiss of Death" found under the Weapon TYPE: Harlequin's kiss.

If you do not use the Harelquin's Kiss weapons, you do not have the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule (obtained only when striking blows with the weapon).

If you do not have the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule, how are you breaking the rule by striking blows with the Harelquin's Caress, and you only have the "Caress of Death" special rule?

The Kiss of Death rule explicitly applies whenever you are equipped with a Harlequins Kiss. You do not need to be striking blows with it. The KoD rule tells us this.

Yes, the KoD rule tells you this, if you have the rule in the first place, when using the weapon.

Rulebook:

Rulebook wrote:It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type. That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

Is the Solitaire using the Kiss?

 BlackTalos wrote:
Or, more basically described:

What special rules does a Solitaire have when he is in CC and using the Harlequin's Caress?

Answer:
-Blitz
-Deep Strike
(etc)
-The Path of Damnation
-Caress of Death

He does not have the Special Rule, Kiss of Death (listed in a Weapon's profile he is not using)

The rules disagree with you unless you have a page and paragraph proving the Solitaire is not equipped with a Harlrequins Kiss.