Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Right the Kiss Of Death rule tells us whenever a model equipped with a Harlequins Kiss makes attack in CC one of those attacks is a kiss of death. So my premises are:
1. If equipped with a Harlequins kiss you make a kiss of death attack when striking blows in close combat. (Literal RaW of KoD).
2. The Solitaire is equipped with a Harlequins kiss
Which of those is wrong? Is page 91 of the Harlequin Codex wrong or is the Solitaire not equipped with a Harlequins kiss?
So, again, you're failing to cite a rule that allows you to reference the Kiss of Death rule without using the weapon.
That's where your premise fails (as has been pointed out to you - repeatedly). You're invoking a rule that you have no permission to invoke.
Page 91 gives me permission if the Solitaire is equipped. So is the Solitaire equipped with a Harlequins kiss?
Do you not see how circular that logic is?
The rule you're quoting give you permission to reference the rule you're quoting?
Well, this would actually be fine if the Kiss of Death actually did give permission to use it when not attacking with a HK. It doesn't. Therein lies the problem.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
1. If equipped with a Harlequins kiss you make a kiss of death attack when striking blows in close combat. (Literal RaW of KoD).
2. The Solitaire is equipped with a Harlequins kiss
Number one is incorrect. You skipped a step.
1. Using a Harlequin's Kiss in CC gives the Kiss of Death rule to the Solitaire.
2. The KOD rule grants a KOD attack.
3. If the Solitaire uses the Caress, he never gains the KOD rule and thus cannot make that attack.
Right the Kiss Of Death rule tells us whenever a model equipped with a Harlequins Kiss makes attack in CC one of those attacks is a kiss of death. So my premises are:
1. If equipped with a Harlequins kiss you make a kiss of death attack when striking blows in close combat. (Literal RaW of KoD).
2. The Solitaire is equipped with a Harlequins kiss
Which of those is wrong? Is page 91 of the Harlequin Codex wrong or is the Solitaire not equipped with a Harlequins kiss?
So, again, you're failing to cite a rule that allows you to reference the Kiss of Death rule without using the weapon.
That's where your premise fails (as has been pointed out to you - repeatedly). You're invoking a rule that you have no permission to invoke.
Page 91 gives me permission if the Solitaire is equipped. So is the Solitaire equipped with a Harlequins kiss?
Do you not see how circular that logic is?
The rule you're quoting give you permission to reference the rule you're quoting?
Yes the rule I'm quoting tells me when it applies. It applies when I'm equipped with a Harlequins Kiss and striking blows in combat.
1. If equipped with a Harlequins kiss you make a kiss of death attack when striking blows in close combat. (Literal RaW of KoD).
2. The Solitaire is equipped with a Harlequins kiss
Number one is incorrect. You skipped a step.
1. Using a Harlequin's Kiss in CC gives the Kiss of Death rule to the Solitaire.
2. The KOD rule grants a KOD attack.
3. If the Solitaire uses the Caress, he never gains the KOD rule and thus cannot make that attack.
So the Harlequin codex is wrong or lying? Sorry but if your interpretation is based on the assumption the rules are wrong then you are not arguing RaW.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/16 14:36:31
rigeld2 wrote:Do you not see how circular that logic is?
The rule you're quoting give you permission to reference the rule you're quoting?
Yes the rule I'm quoting tells me when it applies. It applies when I'm equipped with a Harlequins Kiss and striking blows in combat.
That's not what I said.
I said find permission to use KoD. You cited the KoD rule. That's the very definition of a circular argument, and cannot be used as a foundation for a rules as written discussion.
I mean, why can I not enforce the movement rules that require you to stay 1" away form an enemy model when you start to attack?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/16 14:38:00
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
When attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss, he makes a Kiss of Death attack. Agreed.
So the Harlequin codex is wrong? It says equipped, not attacking with. Please read the relevant rules and then come back and make an argument.
Sigh...
BRB... More Than One Weapon Section - "Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot – he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase. If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons. However, it’s worth remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 attack in close combat."
Codex: Harlequins... Kiss of Death special rule - "When a model equipped with a Harlequin’s Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its Attacks will be a Kiss of Death Attack (roll this Attack separately). A Kiss of Death Attack is always resolved at Strength 6 AP2. If a 6 is rolled To Wound with a Kiss of Death Attack, that attack has the Instant Death special rule."
There are the relevant rules.
Please highlight the bit in the Kiss of Death rule that explicitly tells you that you can mix and match abilities OR an unresolvable conflict that would make it impossible to follow the BRB rule. I see neither.
I know you're going to use the "When a model equipped with..." wording to attempt to justify your point, but this clearly isn't explicit permission to mix and match. I can only assume you think this creates an unresolvable conflict. Does it? Let's look.
I am a Solitaire. I choose to attack with my Caress of Death. I know that I will benefit from the Caress of Death special rule. Will I benefit from the Kiss of Death special rule? Kiss of Death tells me to do something when I'm A. making attacks and B. equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss. Both of these things are true, so I guess I'll benefit from the Kiss of Death... but wait! The More Than One Weapon rules tell me I can't mix and match weapon abilities. So, the Kiss of Death tells me to do something when I attack AND am equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss. The core rules tell me to ignore the Kiss of Death when not attacking with a Halequin's Kiss.
Invoking both rules means I need to...
A. be making an attack
B. be equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss
C. be making my attacks with a Harlequin's Kiss
...to benefit from the Kiss of Death weapon ability. See? No unresolvable conflict. You're just ignoring the "C" requirement imposed by the core rules.
I see the two weapons as giving the Solitaire some utility.
So, do I want to...
A. Risk getting multiple automatic Wounds resolved at AP2 when rolling 6's.
...or...
B. Get one guarateed, higher strength attack resolved at AP2 that will cause Instant Death?
If I'm attacking a unit of Orks, I'll attack with the Caress. If I'm in a challenge with a Space Marine Captain, I'll attack with the Kiss.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/16 14:54:07
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
No, it simply does not apply, as the model [Solitaire] never actually has the "Kiss of Death" USR unless he is using the weapon.
As Rigeld has said, you say that you need to follow the "Kiss of Death" wording in order to have the "Kiss of Death" rule?
So, if i ask:
How do you get the Special Rule, "Kiss of Death"?
Your reply is: because the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule says so. So, to get "Kiss of Death" you need to follow the "Kiss of Death" Special rule, which you get by following the "Kiss of Death" Special rule, which you get by following the "Kiss of Death" Special rule, which you get by following the "Kiss of Death" Special rule, which you get by following the "Kiss of Death" Special rule, which you get by following the "Kiss of Death" Special rule, which you get by following the "Kiss of Death" Special rule.
Should i stop?
The RaW reply is:
Rulebook wrote:a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.
So by Raw, using the Weapon: Harlequin's Kiss grants the "Kiss of Death" Special rule. You have no other method of obtaining that Special rule. Or quote the RaW that grants it (which obviously cannot be contained in the effect of the rule - which happens only when the rule is granted)
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
rigeld2 wrote:Do you not see how circular that logic is?
The rule you're quoting give you permission to reference the rule you're quoting?
Yes the rule I'm quoting tells me when it applies. It applies when I'm equipped with a Harlequins Kiss and striking blows in combat.
That's not what I said.
I said find permission to use KoD. You cited the KoD rule. That's the very definition of a circular argument, and cannot be used as a foundation for a rules as written discussion.
I mean, why can I not enforce the movement rules that require you to stay 1" away form an enemy model when you start to attack?
Yes the KoD rule tells me when it applies. The 1" movement rule tells you when it applies and other rules tell you when to over ride it by giving specific exemptions to it.
rigeld2 wrote:Do you not see how circular that logic is?
The rule you're quoting give you permission to reference the rule you're quoting?
Yes the rule I'm quoting tells me when it applies. It applies when I'm equipped with a Harlequins Kiss and striking blows in combat.
That's not what I said.
I said find permission to use KoD. You cited the KoD rule. That's the very definition of a circular argument, and cannot be used as a foundation for a rules as written discussion.
I mean, why can I not enforce the movement rules that require you to stay 1" away form an enemy model when you start to attack?
Yes the KoD rule tells me when it applies. The 1" movement rule tells you when it applies and other rules tell you when to over ride it by giving specific exemptions to it.
Potential breakthrough!!!
Yes, the KoD rule tells you when it applies.
The core rules tell you when it DOESN'T apply... i.e., when NOT using the Harlequin's Kiss to attack.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
rigeld2 wrote:Do you not see how circular that logic is?
The rule you're quoting give you permission to reference the rule you're quoting?
Yes the rule I'm quoting tells me when it applies. It applies when I'm equipped with a Harlequins Kiss and striking blows in combat.
That's not what I said.
I said find permission to use KoD. You cited the KoD rule. That's the very definition of a circular argument, and cannot be used as a foundation for a rules as written discussion.
I mean, why can I not enforce the movement rules that require you to stay 1" away form an enemy model when you start to attack?
Yes the KoD rule tells me when it applies. The 1" movement rule tells you when it applies and other rules tell you when to over ride it by giving specific exemptions to it.
Find permission to reference the KoD rule. You cannot use the KoD rule to get this permission - as I've said, circular arguments are incorrect.
Spoiler:
Models in the Way
A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase, and can never move or pivot (see below) through another model (friend or foe) at any time. To move past, they must go around.
I choose to enforce this when you are Piling in your models. It's a move, and according to the quoted rule you can't move within 1" unless you're charging. Using your argument (that a rule can self-allow) disprove my statement.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
No, it simply does not apply, as the model [Solitaire] never actually has the "Kiss of Death" USR unless he is using the weapon.
The Harlequin codex disagrees with this statement. Why keep making such a statement you know to be false?
Many rules tell you how and when they apply. So how do we have permission to shoot without referencing the shooting rules?
Where does the Harlequin Codex disagree? In the effects of a rule that your model does not have?
If you have a model, say a Solitaire, without the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule. What rule (quote anything at this point) does he use in order to obtain the Special rule: "Kiss of Death" and it's effects?
Do not forget, the model does not have the "Kiss of Death" USR, so its effects will ONLY apply once you can apply the rule to the model. Explain how you do this?
How does the solitaire obtain the "Kiss of Death" Special rule? (You are not allowed to use the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule, as you do not have it yet)
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
rigeld2 wrote:Do you not see how circular that logic is?
The rule you're quoting give you permission to reference the rule you're quoting?
Yes the rule I'm quoting tells me when it applies. It applies when I'm equipped with a Harlequins Kiss and striking blows in combat.
That's not what I said.
I said find permission to use KoD. You cited the KoD rule. That's the very definition of a circular argument, and cannot be used as a foundation for a rules as written discussion.
I mean, why can I not enforce the movement rules that require you to stay 1" away form an enemy model when you start to attack?
Yes the KoD rule tells me when it applies. The 1" movement rule tells you when it applies and other rules tell you when to over ride it by giving specific exemptions to it.
Potential breakthrough!!!
Yes, the KoD rule tells you when it applies.
The core rules tell you when it DOESN'T apply... i.e., when NOT using the Harlequin's Kiss to attack.
Only if that rule is more specific can it over ride the KoD rule. It isn't so doesn't. It at best restricts you from using the Caress ever.
No, it simply does not apply, as the model [Solitaire] never actually has the "Kiss of Death" USR unless he is using the weapon.
The Harlequin codex disagrees with this statement. Why keep making such a statement you know to be false?
Many rules tell you how and when they apply. So how do we have permission to shoot without referencing the shooting rules?
Where does the Harlequin Codex disagree? In the effects of a rule that your model does not have?
If you have a model, say a Solitaire, without the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule. What rule (quote anything at this point) does he use in order to obtain the Special rule: "Kiss of Death" and it's effects?
Do not forget, the model does not have the "Kiss of Death" USR, so its effects will ONLY apply once you can apply the rule to the model. Explain how you do this?
How does the solitaire obtain the "Kiss of Death" Special rule? (You are not allowed to use the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule, as you do not have it yet)
So back to the Solitaire isn't equipped with the Harlequins Kiss... So which is it as you keep flip flopping between the Solitaire doesn't have a Kiss equipped or he can never attack with a caress. Which are you arguing for?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/16 15:19:02
rigeld2 wrote:Do you not see how circular that logic is?
The rule you're quoting give you permission to reference the rule you're quoting?
Yes the rule I'm quoting tells me when it applies. It applies when I'm equipped with a Harlequins Kiss and striking blows in combat.
That's not what I said.
I said find permission to use KoD. You cited the KoD rule. That's the very definition of a circular argument, and cannot be used as a foundation for a rules as written discussion.
I mean, why can I not enforce the movement rules that require you to stay 1" away form an enemy model when you start to attack?
Yes the KoD rule tells me when it applies. The 1" movement rule tells you when it applies and other rules tell you when to over ride it by giving specific exemptions to it.
Potential breakthrough!!!
Yes, the KoD rule tells you when it applies.
The core rules tell you when it DOESN'T apply... i.e., when NOT using the Harlequin's Kiss to attack.
Only if that rule is more specific can it over ride the KoD rule. It isn't so doesn't. It at best restricts you from using the Caress ever.
No, it simply does not apply, as the model [Solitaire] never actually has the "Kiss of Death" USR unless he is using the weapon.
The Harlequin codex disagrees with this statement. Why keep making such a statement you know to be false?
Many rules tell you how and when they apply. So how do we have permission to shoot without referencing the shooting rules?
Where does the Harlequin Codex disagree? In the effects of a rule that your model does not have?
If you have a model, say a Solitaire, without the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule. What rule (quote anything at this point) does he use in order to obtain the Special rule: "Kiss of Death" and it's effects?
Do not forget, the model does not have the "Kiss of Death" USR, so its effects will ONLY apply once you can apply the rule to the model. Explain how you do this?
How does the solitaire obtain the "Kiss of Death" Special rule? (You are not allowed to use the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule, as you do not have it yet)
So back to the Solitaire isn't equipped with the Harlequins Kiss... So which is it as you keep flip flopping between the Solitaire doesn't have a Kiss equipped or he can never attack with a caress. Which are you arguing for?
I salute your broken record style of debate, sir. But please do me a favor and stop putting words in my mouth. I do not appreciate it. Please do not do it again.
I have NEVER said a Solitaire isn't equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss.
I have NEVER said a Solitaire can't attack with a Harlequin's Caress.
What I have done is quote the relevant rules over and over again.
If you aren't using the weapon, you don't get the benefits. I know you desperately want to have your cake and eat it too, but this is not how the game works.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
If you aren't using the weapon, you don't get the benefits.
The restriction from Kiss of Death (that one of your attacks must be a KoD attack when attacing in CC) applies when the Solitaire is equipped. So if Kiss of death doesn't apply the Solitaire isn't equipped with a HK. If he is then KoD applies. So saying KoD doesn't apply is the same as saying he is not equipped with a HK. Likewise saying he can't KoD when using the caress is the same as saying he can't use the caress whilst attacking in CC as he HAS to KoD when attacking in CC.
My stance on this discussion (for what its worth)
I have read the sections on special rules regarding on how a model gets special rules.
Spoiler:
WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type. That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.
Ok, so this tells me that I get special rules either by making an attack with a weapon,its unit type, or by getting it from the army list entry. So what counts as an army list entry then?
Spoiler:
Army List Entries
The rules for your Citadel miniatures are found in a wide range of Games Workshop publications, such as codexes, codex supplements and dataslates. Regardless of where this information is found, it is known as an Army List Entry. Each Army List Entry describes a unit of Citadel miniatures and includes everything you will need to know in order to use that unit in a game of Warhammer 40,000.
Similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers, scenario special rules or being hunkered down in a particular type of terrain. Where this is the case, the rule that governs the psychic power, scenario or terrain type in question will make this abundantly clear.
Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex or Army List Entry.
So by this excerpt from the BRB we see that special rules can be granted to the model via its codex, codex supplement or dataslate. Now as to the solitaire the KoD special rule is granted to the model as the rule itself is not activated by making an attack, nor is it given by being part of a unit type, but is it is granted by being equiped as per the relevant Army List Entry.
The model must retain all of its special rules
Spoiler:
A Compendium of Special Rules
... Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule
more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are
cumulative
If you aren't using the weapon, you don't get the benefits.
The restriction from Kiss of Death (that one of your attacks must be a KoD attack when attacing in CC) applies when the Solitaire is equipped. So if Kiss of death doesn't apply the Solitaire isn't equipped with a HK. If he is then KoD applies. So saying KoD doesn't apply is the same as saying he is not equipped with a HK. Likewise saying he can't KoD when using the caress is the same as saying he can't use the caress whilst attacking in CC as he HAS to KoD when attacking in CC.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Common fallacy. Your argument is garbage.
There are multiple reasons a model wouldn't benefit from a Kiss of Death attack. Maybe he actually isn't equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss. My Tau Commander doesn't benefit from a Kiss of Death attack, but then he's not equipped with a HK, so that makes sense. Maybe he is equipped with a HK, but is choosing not to use it in combat. That would also cause him to not benefit from the rule.
Saying that the KoD not applying necessarily means the Solitaire isn't equipped with an HK is garbage logic and causes your entire line of argument to fall apart.
Your last sentence is also garbage. Saying he can't use the KoD when making attacks with the HC just means he can't use the KoD when making attacks with the HC. The core rules tell us we can choose between the HC and the HK when attacking. Pick the HC and the CoD confers to your attacks. Pick the HK and the KoD confers to your attacks.
You keep making logical leaps that simply aren't true. You also keep using common logical fallacies.
I say this with all the honesty and goodwill in the world.... you might want to study up on logic and debate. You're making lots of beginner mistakes.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
If you aren't using the weapon, you don't get the benefits.
The restriction from Kiss of Death (that one of your attacks must be a KoD attack when attacing in CC) applies when the Solitaire is equipped. So if Kiss of death doesn't apply the Solitaire isn't equipped with a HK. If he is then KoD applies. So saying KoD doesn't apply is the same as saying he is not equipped with a HK. Likewise saying he can't KoD when using the caress is the same as saying he can't use the caress whilst attacking in CC as he HAS to KoD when attacking in CC.
So... still refusing to actual cite a rule allowing you to reference KoD? Circular references aren't allowed, of course.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Arthurmw43 wrote: My stance on this discussion (for what its worth)
I have read the sections on special rules regarding on how a model gets special rules.
Spoiler:
WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type. That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.
Ok, so this tells me that I get special rules either by making an attack with a weapon,its unit type, or by getting it from the army list entry. So what counts as an army list entry then?
Spoiler:
Army List Entries
The rules for your Citadel miniatures are found in a wide range of Games Workshop publications, such as codexes, codex supplements and dataslates. Regardless of where this information is found, it is known as an Army List Entry. Each Army List Entry describes a unit of Citadel miniatures and includes everything you will need to know in order to use that unit in a game of Warhammer 40,000.
Similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers, scenario special rules or being hunkered down in a particular type of terrain. Where this is the case, the rule that governs the psychic power, scenario or terrain type in question will make this abundantly clear.
Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex or Army List Entry.
So by this excerpt from the BRB we see that special rules can be granted to the model via its codex, codex supplement or dataslate. Now as to the solitaire the KoD special rule is granted to the model as the rule itself is not activated by making an attack, nor is it given by being part of a unit type, but is it is granted by being equiped as per the relevant Army List Entry.
The model must retain all of its special rules
Spoiler:
A Compendium of Special Rules
... Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule
more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are
cumulative
I'm not convinced it even matters if the Solitaire has the rule or not. If you are attacking in CC and equipped with a Kiss the rule activates and forces you to make a KoD attack.
If you aren't using the weapon, you don't get the benefits.
The restriction from Kiss of Death (that one of your attacks must be a KoD attack when attacing in CC) applies when the Solitaire is equipped. So if Kiss of death doesn't apply the Solitaire isn't equipped with a HK. If he is then KoD applies. So saying KoD doesn't apply is the same as saying he is not equipped with a HK. Likewise saying he can't KoD when using the caress is the same as saying he can't use the caress whilst attacking in CC as he HAS to KoD when attacking in CC.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Common fallacy. Your argument is garbage.
There are multiple reasons a model wouldn't benefit from a Kiss of Death attack. Maybe he actually isn't equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss. My Tau Commander doesn't benefit from a Kiss of Death attack, but then he's not equipped with a HK, so that makes sense. Maybe he is equipped with a HK, but is choosing not to use it in combat. That would also cause him to not benefit from the rule.
Saying that the KoD not applying necessarily means the Solitaire isn't equipped with an HK is garbage logic and causes your entire line of argument to fall apart.
Your last sentence is also garbage. Saying he can't use the KoD when making attacks with the HC just means he can't use the KoD when making attacks with the HC. The core rules tell us we can choose between the HC and the HK when attacking. Pick the HC and the CoD confers to your attacks. Pick the HK and the KoD confers to your attacks.
You keep making logical leaps that simply aren't true. You also keep using common logical fallacies.
I say this with all the honesty and goodwill in the world.... you might want to study up on logic and debate. You're making lots of beginner mistakes.
The KoD rule tells us it applies to all models that are:
1) attacking in close combat
2) equipped with a Harlequins Kiss.
When attacking with a Caress which of the 2 criteria above is not met?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/16 16:12:47
I'm not convinced it even matters if the Solitaire has the rule or not. If you are attacking in CC and equipped with a Kiss the rule activates and forces you to make a KoD attack.
That is exactly what I'm saying. The solitaire has the rule for the KoD as it is part of the relevant Army List Entry (as cited in the excerpts from the BRB) All of the models special rules are cumulative, so the solitaire will have all of its special rules at the all times, so whenever the solitaire makes an attack he will have access to the KoD Special rule and must use it. this does not conflict with the "mix and match" as the model has the rule by being equipped not by making an attack. Also the way I have thought this out would not work if the special rules for the model were to require an attack to be made ( does not open allow abuse as most other special rules require an attack to be made to use them)
I'm not convinced it even matters if the Solitaire has the rule or not. If you are attacking in CC and equipped with a Kiss the rule activates and forces you to make a KoD attack.
That is exactly what I'm saying. The solitaire has the rule for the KoD as it is part of the relevant Army List Entry (as cited in the excerpts from the BRB) All of the models special rules are cumulative, so the solitaire will have all of its special rules at the all times, so whenever the solitaire makes an attack he will have access to the KoD Special rule and must use it. this does not conflict with the "mix and match" as the model has the rule by being equipped not by making an attack. Also the way I have thought this out would not work if the special rules for the model were to require an attack to be made ( does not open allow abuse as most other special rules require an attack to be made to use them)
Agreed so say there is a special Harlequins kiss that gets Shred rending and master crafted added to it. When attacking with the caress the kiss of death attack would not get those special rules as they apply when attacking with that special kiss. Kiss of Death is a restriction that applies to all models equipped with a Hartlequins Kiss that are attacking I'm close combat.
Arthurmw43 633677 7673541 nulll wrote: The solitaire has the rule for the KoD as it is part of the relevant Army List Entry (as cited in the excerpts from the BRB)
No, it doesn't. Harlequin's Kiss does. When are you allowed to reference the special rules for a weapon?
When you are actually using the weapon. Look, it's in the rulebook:
a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.
Unless someone can find another rule (obviously not in the rule you are trying to use - You don't have it yet! ) that allows a model "equipped" with a weapon, to use any special rules that weapon may have...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/16 17:17:09
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.
Unless someone can find another rule (obviously not in the rule you are trying to use - You don't have it yet! ) that allows a model "equipped" with a weapon, to use any special rules that weapon may have...
Cool see the Kiss of Death rule it has explicit rules allowing it to have an effect on all models equipped with a Harlequins Kiss when they make close combat attacks (with any weapon).
Unless someone can find another rule (obviously not in the rule you are trying to use - You don't have it yet! ) that allows a model "equipped" with a weapon, to use any special rules that weapon may have...
Cool see the Kiss of Death rule it has explicit rules allowing it to have an effect on all models equipped with a Harlequins Kiss when they make close combat attacks (with any weapon).
Glad we're all finally in agreement.
Obviously you ignored the underlined - because it destroys your argument.
You can't use a rule you don't have.
How do you have the rule? (Note that since you are attempting to justify having it, you can't cite the rule yet).
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
How do models gain special rules:
Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type. That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.
I'm looking at this first line of the entry from the BRB.
Per the BRB what an Army List Entry is:
The rules for your Citadel miniatures are found in a wide range of Games Workshop publications, such as codexes, codex supplements and dataslates. Regardless of where this information is found, it is known as an Army List Entry.
So special rules can be granted to the model via its codex. Now the solitaire is granted the KoD special rule as the rule itself is not activated by making an attack, only by having the Harlequins Kiss equipped.
The model retains the effects all of its special rules:
Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative.
So by the rules in the BRB we can see how the Solitaire gets the Special rule KoD. This in not the Solitaire's attacks, this is a special rule granted to the model, and as such I do not see that the mix and match stipulation is being violated.
I also said that this interpretation would not be able to be abused in all other situations as the wording on other special rules does not use the equipped term that we see in the Harlequins Kiss, the other rules specify or reference that that an attack must be, or is being made.
Unless someone can find another rule (obviously not in the rule you are trying to use - You don't have it yet! ) that allows a model "equipped" with a weapon, to use any special rules that weapon may have...
Cool see the Kiss of Death rule it has explicit rules allowing it to have an effect on all models equipped with a Harlequins Kiss when they make close combat attacks (with any weapon).
Glad we're all finally in agreement.
Obviously you ignored the underlined - because it destroys your argument.
You can't use a rule you don't have.
How do you have the rule? (Note that since you are attempting to justify having it, you can't cite the rule yet).
Cool so how do we know what the turn sequence is note that we can use the turn sequence rules to tell us. Please stopwith the circular logic. The rule tells us when it applies and who it applies to. So again when attacking in CC with a caress which of the following is false?
1) The Solitaire is attack in close combat.
2) The Solitaire is equipped with a Harlequins Kiss
Unless someone can find another rule (obviously not in the rule you are trying to use - You don't have it yet! ) that allows a model "equipped" with a weapon, to use any special rules that weapon may have...
Cool see the Kiss of Death rule it has explicit rules allowing it to have an effect on all models equipped with a Harlequins Kiss when they make close combat attacks (with any weapon).
Glad we're all finally in agreement.
Obviously you ignored the underlined - because it destroys your argument.
You can't use a rule you don't have.
How do you have the rule? (Note that since you are attempting to justify having it, you can't cite the rule yet).
Cool so how do we know what the turn sequence is note that we can use the turn sequence rules to tell us. Please stopwith the circular logic.
Spoiler:
A Warhammer 40,000 battle is a chaotic affair. To bring a modicum of order to the anarchy of battle, players alternate moving and fighting with their units. So, one player will move and fight with his forces, and then their opponent will move and fight. This process is then repeated, with the first player moving and fighting again, and so on, until the game is done.
During his turn, a player can usually move and fight once with each of his units. For convenience and flow of game play, we divide a player’s turn into four main phases: Movement, Psychic, Shooting and Assault.
What circular logic? Right there I showed where they defined a turn and that a turn is split into 4 phases.
The rule tells us when it applies and who it applies to. So again when attacking in CC with a caress which of the following is false?
The underlined is. You keep asserting otherwise, but have failed to prove it - even going so far as to misrepresent what others are stating, ignoring evidence to the contrary, and other things.
Until you can actually prove the model has the rule, it doesn't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arthurmw43 wrote: So special rules can be granted to the model via its codex.
Absolutely! Now, when is KoD granted to the model?
"a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using."
I don't see any way for a weapon to bestow a special rule other than by using it. Do you?
So by the rules in the BRB we can see how the Solitaire gets the Special rule KoD. This in not the Solitaire's attacks, this is a special rule granted to the model, and as such I do not see that the mix and match stipulation is being violated.
No, we don't. You've shown not a single rule that allows a weapon to bestow a special rule when it's not being used. You've asserted it as fact, but haven't demonstrated it.
I also said that this interpretation would not be able to be abused in all other situations as the wording on other special rules does not use the equipped term that we see in the Harlequins Kiss, the other rules specify or reference that that an attack must be, or is being made.
You're actually under the impression that "equipped" is unique to Harlequin's Kiss/Kiss of Death?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/16 18:09:09
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
A Warhammer 40,000 battle is a chaotic affair. To bring a modicum of order to the anarchy of battle, players alternate moving and fighting with their units. So, one player will move and fight with his forces, and then their opponent will move and fight. This process is then repeated, with the first player moving and fighting again, and so on, until the game is done.
During his turn, a player can usually move and fight once with each of his units. For convenience and flow of game play, we divide a player’s turn into four main phases: Movement, Psychic, Shooting and Assault.
What circular logic? Right there I showed where they defined a turn and that a turn is split into 4 phases.
The rule tells us when it applies and who it applies to. So again when attacking in CC with a caress which of the following is false?
The underlined is. You keep asserting otherwise, but have failed to prove it - even going so far as to misrepresent what others are stating, ignoring evidence to the contrary, and other things.
Until you can actually prove the model has the rule, it doesn't.
You're aware the rules quote is from the Turn rules right? So you can use the Turn rules to define the turn and how/when it occurs but I can't use the KSS of Death rules to define how and when it occurs? Seriously that is your stance?
Now answer the question which statement is untrue or is neither untrue? When attacking in CC with a caress which of the following is false?
1) The Solitaire is attack in close combat.
2) The Solitaire is equipped with a Harlequins Kiss
Just a simple 1, 2 or neither will suffice. (Remembering neither is conceding)