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 FlingitNow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Unless someone can find another rule (obviously not in the rule you are trying to use - You don't have it yet! ) that allows a model "equipped" with a weapon, to use any special rules that weapon may have...

Cool see the Kiss of Death rule it has explicit rules allowing it to have an effect on all models equipped with a Harlequins Kiss when they make close combat attacks (with any weapon).

Glad we're all finally in agreement.

Obviously you ignored the underlined - because it destroys your argument.
You can't use a rule you don't have.
How do you have the rule? (Note that since you are attempting to justify having it, you can't cite the rule yet).

Cool so how do we know what the turn sequence is note that we can use the turn sequence rules to tell us. Please stopwith the circular logic. The rule tells us when it applies and who it applies to. So again when attacking in CC with a caress which of the following is false?

1) The Solitaire is attack in close combat.
2) The Solitaire is equipped with a Harlequins Kiss

Just a simple 1 or 2 will suffice.

There are three requirements for activating the Kiss of Death. You keep listing only two of them.

1. The model is equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss (From the KoD rule)
2. The model is attacking (From the KoD rule)
3. The model is attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss (From the BRB)

In your scenario above, when a Solitaire is attacking using a Harlequin's Caress... 1 and 2 are true while 3 is false. Since not all of the requirements are met, the Kiss of Death weapon ability is not used.

NOBODY is disputing that 1 and 2 have to be true. We ALL agree 1 and 2 have to be true. YOU are the one who is ignoring requirement 3.

I feel like you want to treat the Harlequin's Kiss the same way Eldar Mandiblasters work. Mandiblasters are a piece of Wargear that grant an additional attack with a set profile. Mandiblasters AREN'T Melee weapons. If the Harlequin's Kiss wasn't a Melee weapon, the abilities would stack with no issue. Unfortunately for you, this is not the case.

Absolutely! Now, when is KoD granted to the model?
"a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using."
I don't see any way for a weapon to bestow a special rule other than by using it. Do you?

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type. That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

The underlined sentence states that it would be granted through the army list.
The italicized sentence does not include the word "only". I say this as it seems to me that your stance is that weapons can not give special rules unless they are being used in an attack, which is not true (see Eldrad's staff.

Rigeld, What other weapon has the "equipped" designation? As everything I have read that is a weapon says when making attacks with this weapon, or similar.

Grenades seem to be a bit of wargear that has the option to be used as a weapon, which further leads me to believe that the Serpent shield can't be twin linked with laser lock as it is similar in the way it is written, but that is another discussion.

The "equipped" with items, that I have found, are armor, or some other oddity, rather than a weapon, making the Kiss an different from the word go. Though I have a limited amount of Codecies to peruse.

As to the use of the KoD rule, it is granted when the model is equipped with it, as specified in the rule. When the model is allowed the choice of weapons to use, the choice has already been made from the moment the model paid for the HK. So in the case of the Solitaire, when they printed the codex, it was equipped with the kiss.

By breaking the least amount of rules, the Solitaire will always attack with the Kiss, and never be able to use the Caress.

RAI, I lean toward being able to use both, but the argument for being able to chose does hold merit, but is not as cut and dried as some believe.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Rigeld, What other weapon has the "equipped" designation? As everything I have read that is a weapon says when making attacks with this weapon, or similar.

Grenades seem to be a bit of wargear that has the option to be used as a weapon, which further leads me to believe that the Serpent shield can't be twin linked with laser lock as it is similar in the way it is written, but that is another discussion.

The "equipped" with items, that I have found, are armor, or some other oddity, rather than a weapon, making the Kiss an different from the word go. Though I have a limited amount of Codecies to peruse.

As to the use of the KoD rule, it is granted when the model is equipped with it, as specified in the rule. When the model is allowed the choice of weapons to use, the choice has already been made from the moment the model paid for the HK. So in the case of the Solitaire, when they printed the codex, it was equipped with the kiss.

By breaking the least amount of rules, the Solitaire will always attack with the Kiss, and never be able to use the Caress.

RAI, I lean toward being able to use both, but the argument for being able to chose does hold merit, but is not as cut and dried as some believe.

Attacking with the Caress and NOT getting to use the KoD breaks ZERO rules.... so I'd say ZERO is the least amount of rules.

RAI, I'd say one or the other. If they wanted both to work, they could have just make the Kiss a non-Melee item of wargear like Striking Scorpion Mandiblasters. They didn't. They made it a Melee weapon... and they've been very clear across the entirety of the game up until this point that you can only attack with one weapon at a time and only gain benefit from the weapon you're attacking with.

There are three requirements for activating the Kiss of Death. You keep listing only two of them.

1. The model is equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss (From the KoD rule)
2. The model is attacking (From the KoD rule)
3. The model is attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss (From the BRB)

In your scenario above, when a Solitaire is attacking using a Harlequin's Caress... 1 and 2 are true while 3 is false. Since not all of the requirements are met, the Kiss of Death weapon ability is not used.

NOBODY is disputing that 1 and 2 have to be true. We ALL agree 1 and 2 have to be true. YOU are the one who is ignoring requirement 3.

I feel like you want to treat the Harlequin's Kiss the same way Eldar Mandiblasters work. Mandiblasters are a piece of Wargear that grant an additional attack with a set profile. Mandiblasters AREN'T Melee weapons. If the Harlequin's Kiss wasn't a Melee weapon, the abilities would stack with no issue. Unfortunately for you, this is not the case.

Requirement 3 doesn't apply to KoD. It states emphatically you must make a KoD attack if equipped with HK and attacking in CC. I see nothing about KoD anywhere in the BrB.

Attacking with the Caress and NOT getting to use the KoD breaks ZERO rules.... so I'd say ZERO is the least amount of rules.

Please don't state thing you know to be untrue. It is not helpful to discussion and does not make your side stronger just highlights the weakness of it. Zero and One are not the same number stop saying they are.

 FlingitNow wrote:

There are three requirements for activating the Kiss of Death. You keep listing only two of them.

1. The model is equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss (From the KoD rule)
2. The model is attacking (From the KoD rule)
3. The model is attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss (From the BRB)

In your scenario above, when a Solitaire is attacking using a Harlequin's Caress... 1 and 2 are true while 3 is false. Since not all of the requirements are met, the Kiss of Death weapon ability is not used.

NOBODY is disputing that 1 and 2 have to be true. We ALL agree 1 and 2 have to be true. YOU are the one who is ignoring requirement 3.

I feel like you want to treat the Harlequin's Kiss the same way Eldar Mandiblasters work. Mandiblasters are a piece of Wargear that grant an additional attack with a set profile. Mandiblasters AREN'T Melee weapons. If the Harlequin's Kiss wasn't a Melee weapon, the abilities would stack with no issue. Unfortunately for you, this is not the case.

Requirement 3 doesn't apply to KoD. It states emphatically you must make a KoD attack if equipped with HK and attacking in CC. I see nothing about KoD anywhere in the BrB.

Attacking with the Caress and NOT getting to use the KoD breaks ZERO rules.... so I'd say ZERO is the least amount of rules.

Please don't state thing you know to be untrue. It is not helpful to discussion and does not make your side stronger just highlights the weakness of it. Zero and One are not the same number stop saying they are.

Can you provide your explicit written permission to ignore requirement #3. Protip: the fact that KoD introduces two additional requirements does not give permission to ignore an existing requirement.

I'll wait while you type up a "if equipped, you can't caress because both or neither therefore you concede" tired old rehash of your same flawed argument.

OR... you could either provide the permission to ignore (which isn't in there) or admit that you've made a mistake... that you'd really like to be able to mix and match weapon abilities but can't find a permission to do so.

 Kriswall wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Rigeld, What other weapon has the "equipped" designation? As everything I have read that is a weapon says when making attacks with this weapon, or similar.

Grenades seem to be a bit of wargear that has the option to be used as a weapon, which further leads me to believe that the Serpent shield can't be twin linked with laser lock as it is similar in the way it is written, but that is another discussion.

The "equipped" with items, that I have found, are armor, or some other oddity, rather than a weapon, making the Kiss an different from the word go. Though I have a limited amount of Codecies to peruse.

As to the use of the KoD rule, it is granted when the model is equipped with it, as specified in the rule. When the model is allowed the choice of weapons to use, the choice has already been made from the moment the model paid for the HK. So in the case of the Solitaire, when they printed the codex, it was equipped with the kiss.

By breaking the least amount of rules, the Solitaire will always attack with the Kiss, and never be able to use the Caress.

RAI, I lean toward being able to use both, but the argument for being able to chose does hold merit, but is not as cut and dried as some believe.

Attacking with the Caress and NOT getting to use the KoD breaks ZERO rules.... so I'd say ZERO is the least amount of rules.

RAI, I'd say one or the other. If they wanted both to work, they could have just make the Kiss a non-Melee item of wargear like Striking Scorpion Mandiblasters. They didn't. They made it a Melee weapon... and they've been very clear across the entirety of the game up until this point that you can only attack with one weapon at a time and only gain benefit from the weapon you're attacking with.

You do realize my way breaks ZERO rules also, right? The model is equipped with the HK, granting it the KoD rule as said rule is written, I go to attack, and am blocked from using another weapon because KoD forces it's use, and I can't mix and match weapons abilities, so......

You've obviously missed one of the Dreadknights weapons, and the original wording for the Djin Blade, which one was FAQ's to allow it's use in conjunction with other weapons, the other was FAQ'd not to allow it's use with other weapons. The Dreadkinghts weapons said "equipped with", the Djin Blade said "bearer", both mean, the guy who has it. Both FAQ's are now gone, but their implications leave us with naught but opinion on how the Rules read to us. It also breaks you're premise that GW has been very clear to only gaining the benefit of one weapon, until now.

As written the Kiss is, as pointed out in the post prior to mine, a way to give a model a special rule beyond just, a weapon can only ever grant a special rule when it is used. The "equipped with" nomenclature can very well fall into the here have a rule category. This discussion will never resolve until GW FAQ's the Harlequins Kiss.

Score another one for GW's shoddy rules writing capabilities.

 FlingitNow wrote:

A Warhammer 40,000 battle is a chaotic affair. To bring a modicum of order to the anarchy of battle, players alternate moving and fighting with their units. So, one player will move and fight with his forces, and then their opponent will move and fight. This process is then repeated, with the first player moving and fighting again, and so on, until the game is done.
During his turn, a player can usually move and fight once with each of his units. For convenience and flow of game play, we divide a player’s turn into four main phases: Movement, Psychic, Shooting and Assault.

What circular logic? Right there I showed where they defined a turn and that a turn is split into 4 phases.

The rule tells us when it applies and who it applies to. So again when attacking in CC with a caress which of the following is false?

The underlined is. You keep asserting otherwise, but have failed to prove it - even going so far as to misrepresent what others are stating, ignoring evidence to the contrary, and other things.
Until you can actually prove the model has the rule, it doesn't.

You're aware the rules quote is from the Turn rules right? So you can use the Turn rules to define the turn and how/when it occurs but I can't use the KSS of Death rules to define how and when it occurs? Seriously that is your stance?

You said, and I'll quote you so there's no misunderstanding:

Cool so how do we know what the turn sequence is note that we can use the turn sequence rules to tell us. Please stopwith the circular logic.

We know what the turn sequence is because the rules for a turn state it. Not because the rules for a turn sequence state it.
Simply reading the book shows that to play a game, you need turns. What makes up a turn? Right there - four phases.

You have a weapon with a special rule. When does that special rule apply, without reading the special rule (because you can't apply it before knowing when it applies).

1) The Solitaire is attack in close combat.
2) The Solitaire is equipped with a Harlequins Kiss

Just a simple 1, 2 or neither will suffice. (Remembering neither is conceding)

The underlined is false.
You're offering a false dichotomy, which I will refuse to play into. Although, due to typos, #1 is grammatically incorrect - do you mean is attacked or is attacking?
And there needs to be more context to those questions - you cannot offer them alone because they cannot be answered as true or false without more context. In the movement phase you can't prove either is true.

Arthurmw43 wrote:

Absolutely! Now, when is KoD granted to the model?
"a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using."
I don't see any way for a weapon to bestow a special rule other than by using it. Do you?

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type. That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

The underlined sentence states that it would be granted through the army list.
The italicized sentence does not include the word "only". I say this as it seems to me that your stance is that weapons can not give special rules unless they are being used in an attack, which is not true (see Eldrad's staff.

This right here, Having a rule because the item is equipped sure sounds like a way to give a model a special rule beyond just the weapons attacks, and is not omitted because it is not not omitted in the sentence describing how a model gets a special rule. "Most" does not equal "Only"

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Rigeld, What other weapon has the "equipped" designation? As everything I have read that is a weapon says when making attacks with this weapon, or similar.

Grenades seem to be a bit of wargear that has the option to be used as a weapon, which further leads me to believe that the Serpent shield can't be twin linked with laser lock as it is similar in the way it is written, but that is another discussion.

The "equipped" with items, that I have found, are armor, or some other oddity, rather than a weapon, making the Kiss an different from the word go. Though I have a limited amount of Codecies to peruse.

As to the use of the KoD rule, it is granted when the model is equipped with it, as specified in the rule. When the model is allowed the choice of weapons to use, the choice has already been made from the moment the model paid for the HK. So in the case of the Solitaire, when they printed the codex, it was equipped with the kiss.

By breaking the least amount of rules, the Solitaire will always attack with the Kiss, and never be able to use the Caress.

RAI, I lean toward being able to use both, but the argument for being able to chose does hold merit, but is not as cut and dried as some believe.

Attacking with the Caress and NOT getting to use the KoD breaks ZERO rules.... so I'd say ZERO is the least amount of rules.

RAI, I'd say one or the other. If they wanted both to work, they could have just make the Kiss a non-Melee item of wargear like Striking Scorpion Mandiblasters. They didn't. They made it a Melee weapon... and they've been very clear across the entirety of the game up until this point that you can only attack with one weapon at a time and only gain benefit from the weapon you're attacking with.

You do realize my way breaks ZERO rules also, right? The model is equipped with the HK, granting it the KoD rule as said rule is written, I go to attack, and am blocked from using another weapon because KoD forces it's use, and I can't mix and match weapons abilities, so......

You've obviously missed one of the Dreadknights weapons, and the original wording for the Djin Blade, which one was FAQ's to allow it's use in conjunction with other weapons, the other was FAQ'd not to allow it's use with other weapons. The Dreadkinghts weapons said "equipped with", the Djin Blade said "bearer", both mean, the guy who has it. Both FAQ's are now gone, but their implications leave us with naught but opinion on how the Rules read to us. It also breaks you're premise that GW has been very clear to only gaining the benefit of one weapon, until now.

As written the Kiss is, as pointed out in the post prior to mine, a way to give a model a special rule beyond just, a weapon can only ever grant a special rule when it is used. The "equipped with" nomenclature can very well fall into the here have a rule category. This discussion will never resolve until GW FAQ's the Harlequins Kiss.

Score another one for GW's shoddy rules writing capabilities.

Being forced to only attack with the HK would violate the rule saying that if you have multiple weapons, you can decide which to attack with. So there's that. That's one. Zero is still less than one.

And those other weapons sort of prove my point that an FAQ is required if GW's actual intent was to have the HK and HC work together. RaW doesn't currently allow it. You can stonewall all you want, but there is a very real restriction in the BRB saying a model cannot mix and match weapon abilities when fighting. The HK adds two addition requirements, but does not explicitly say that you can ignore the BRB restriction.

Permissive Rule Set 101 - If you want to ignore a restriction in the core rules, you need an explicit permission to do so.

9 pages in and nobody can point to an EXPLICIT permission to ignore the restriction in the core rules. I don't believe it's there and given that nobody has been able to supply it... sure looks like it isn't there.

Being forced to only attack with the HK would violate the rule saying that if you have multiple weapons, you can decide which to attack with. So there's that. That's one. Zero is still less than one.

Again with the lie. Not making a KoD attack breaks the KoD rule deliberately lying about that and repeating that lie illustrates you know your argument is completely flawed. Your concession is accepted.

rigeld2 wrote:


You have a weapon with a special rule. When does that special rule apply, without reading the special rule (because you can't apply it before knowing when it applies).

When the model is equipped with the Harlequins Kiss, so when it is purchased for the model, or in the case of the Solitaire, when the codex was printed. Because if you read Arthurmw43's post you will see that there are other ways to get a special rule, not limited to anything, and as the rule quite clearly states when it is equipped, it has this rule.


Without going to the special rule, before knowing when to apply it how the heck would you ever resolve any special rule? Talk about a false argument, maybe you mean something else and wrote something that is highly impossible to do. But I'll bight, now you can't use FnP, Stealth, Shrouded, Instant Death......Because without reading the rule you can not know when it is applied. Guess what, when you read the relevant rule it tells you, it applies when it was equipped.

We know what the turn sequence is because the rules for a turn state it. Not because the rules for a turn sequence state it.
Simply reading the book shows that to play a game, you need turns. What makes up a turn? Right there - four phases.

You have a weapon with a special rule. When does that special rule apply, without reading the special rule (because you can't apply it before knowing when it applies).

You have a turn sequence. When does that turn sequence apply, without reading the turns rule (because you can't apply it before knowing when it applies).

Circular logic is circular. I know when KoD applies because KoD tells me. I can read the rules whenever I want. Not reading rules until you think they apply is a good way to miss things and get rules wrong. Many rules tell you when they apply themselves. Some require extra rules to work.

KoD requires every model that is equipped with a HK to make a KoD attack when they attack in close combat. If you're attacking in CC and equipped with a HK you must therefore make a KoD attack otherwise you are breaking rules. So again which is false 1 or 2?

FlingitNow wrote:

Being forced to only attack with the HK would violate the rule saying that if you have multiple weapons, you can decide which to attack with. So there's that. That's one. Zero is still less than one.

Again with the lie. Not making a KoD attack breaks the KoD rule deliberately lying about that and repeating that lie illustrates you know your argument is completely flawed. Your concession is accepted.

Um. How is he able to make an attack - triggered by a weapon special rule - with a weapon he's not swinging with? Using your argument, a model could only ever swing with a Kiss.

megatrons2nd wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:


You have a weapon with a special rule. When does that special rule apply, without reading the special rule (because you can't apply it before knowing when it applies).

When the model is equipped with the Harlequins Kiss,

I'm sure you read the underlined part of my question - now, please answer this:
What rule is giving you that ability?

Because if you read Arthurmw43's post you will see that there are other ways to get a special rule, not limited to anything, and as the rule quite clearly states when it is equipped, it has this rule.

I read, and addressed, his post. Perhaps you'd care to respond to my comments?

Without going to the special rule, before knowing when to apply it how the heck would you ever resolve any special rule?

Because we know when a model has a special rule.
We also know that a model gains the rules of a weapon when using it.

Talk about a false argument, maybe you mean something else and wrote something that is highly impossible to do. But I'll bight, now you can't use FnP, Stealth, Shrouded, Instant Death......Because without reading the rule you can not know when it is applied. Guess what, when you read the relevant rule it tells you, it applies when it was equipped.

Except I can. The relevant model has FnP, so I have permission to look at FnP and see what it does.
The relevant model has Stealth, so I have permission to look at FnP and see what it does.
The relevant weapon has Instant Death so when using the weapon, I have permission to look that up and see what it does.

So actually, using my argument, everything works fine. Using yours you have to invent self-permissive special rules. Seems like not inventing things is using the actual rules, while inventing things ... isn't.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Being forced to only attack with the HK would violate the rule saying that if you have multiple weapons, you can decide which to attack with. So there's that. That's one. Zero is still less than one.

Again with the lie. Not making a KoD attack breaks the KoD rule deliberately lying about that and repeating that lie illustrates you know your argument is completely flawed. Your concession is accepted.

No need to be rude. Attack the Argument not the person, and calling someone a liar is attacking the person. Please be nice.

@ FlingitNow The rule is quite explicit in the fact that it applies when equipped, and going back to Arthurmw43 post quoting the special rules and how to get them bit, you see that stuff can be granted to a model, most, but not all, come from the army list and so on. However, when the rule says when an item is equipped it has said rule, it does fit the previous category as giving the model a special rule beyond only allowing weapons to give a special rule for one attack.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Being forced to only attack with the HK would violate the rule saying that if you have multiple weapons, you can decide which to attack with. So there's that. That's one. Zero is still less than one.

Again with the lie. Not making a KoD attack breaks the KoD rule deliberately lying about that and repeating that lie illustrates you know your argument is completely flawed. Your concession is accepted.

I've asked before and I'll keep asking because I'm a gentleman. STOP calling me a 'deliberate liar' and STOP putting words in my mouth. I offered no concession. You are not keeping this debate even remotely polite.

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Being forced to only attack with the HK would violate the rule saying that if you have multiple weapons, you can decide which to attack with. So there's that. That's one. Zero is still less than one.

Again with the lie. Not making a KoD attack breaks the KoD rule deliberately lying about that and repeating that lie illustrates you know your argument is completely flawed. Your concession is accepted.

I've asked before and I'll keep asking because I'm a gentleman. STOP calling me a 'deliberate liar' and STOP putting words in my mouth. I offered no concession. You are not keeping this debate even remotely polite.

I am trying to then you repeat stuff you know is untrue and deliberate repeat lies. So in order to remain polite can you please refrain from doing that and retract that break the KoD rule is not breaking any rules statement.

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Being forced to only attack with the HK would violate the rule saying that if you have multiple weapons, you can decide which to attack with. So there's that. That's one. Zero is still less than one.

Again with the lie. Not making a KoD attack breaks the KoD rule deliberately lying about that and repeating that lie illustrates you know your argument is completely flawed. Your concession is accepted.

I've asked before and I'll keep asking because I'm a gentleman. STOP calling me a 'deliberate liar' and STOP putting words in my mouth. I offered no concession. You are not keeping this debate even remotely polite.

So, real question...

Does anyone agree with FlingitNow? If so, can you provide any rules wording allowing you to ignore the restriction in the BRB on mixing and matching weapon abilities?

Devil's Advocate...

Let's say you're correct. (You aren't). Let's say the Kiss of Death has some sort of rules wording that I obviously am not seeing that will allow you to use it when fighting with the Harlequin's Caress. Can you point me to the rule wording in the Caress of Death that allows you to mix and match it with the Kiss of Death? Presumably, the BRB restriction would apply to both weapons, so both weapons need an exemption. If you're correct, you wouldn't be able to use the Caress to attack at all because that would be mixing and matching the Caress of Death with another weapon ability (still prohibited from doing so in the BRB).

So, if you're correct, you can never, ever attack with the Harlequin's Caress. If I'm correct, you can attack with either, but gain benefit only from the weapon you're attacking with. Honestly, which seems more likely?

rigeld2 wrote:

Because if you read Arthurmw43's post you will see that there are other ways to get a special rule, not limited to anything, and as the rule quite clearly states when it is equipped, it has this rule.

I read, and addressed, his post. Perhaps you'd care to respond to my comments?

No, I did not see your rebuttal to his post. Off to read it.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Being forced to only attack with the HK would violate the rule saying that if you have multiple weapons, you can decide which to attack with. So there's that. That's one. Zero is still less than one.

Again with the lie. Not making a KoD attack breaks the KoD rule deliberately lying about that and repeating that lie illustrates you know your argument is completely flawed. Your concession is accepted.

I've asked before and I'll keep asking because I'm a gentleman. STOP calling me a 'deliberate liar' and STOP putting words in my mouth. I offered no concession. You are not keeping this debate even remotely polite.

I am trying to then you repeat stuff you know is untrue and deliberate repeat lies. So in order to remain polite can you please refrain from doing that and retract that break the KoD rule is not breaking any rules statement.

So, you're the arbiter of what I know to be untrue? Again, please stop putting words in my mouth and please stop calling me a liar. I do not appreciate it and it damages this forum.

Um. How is he able to make an attack - triggered by a weapon special rule - with a weapon he's not swinging with? Using your argument, a model could only ever swing with a Kiss.

That's your argument. The KoD rule requires that the solitaire makes a KoD attack whenever he attacks in close combat. If you're saying he can't do that when attacking with the caress then he can't attack with the caress without breaking rules.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Being forced to only attack with the HK would violate the rule saying that if you have multiple weapons, you can decide which to attack with. So there's that. That's one. Zero is still less than one.

Again with the lie. Not making a KoD attack breaks the KoD rule deliberately lying about that and repeating that lie illustrates you know your argument is completely flawed. Your concession is accepted.

I've asked before and I'll keep asking because I'm a gentleman. STOP calling me a 'deliberate liar' and STOP putting words in my mouth. I offered no concession. You are not keeping this debate even remotely polite.

So, real question...

Does anyone agree with FlingitNow? If so, can you provide any rules wording allowing you to ignore the restriction in the BRB on mixing and matching weapon abilities?

Devil's Advocate...

Let's say you're correct. (You aren't). Let's say the Kiss of Death has some sort of rules wording that I obviously am not seeing that will allow you to use it when fighting with the Harlequin's Caress. Can you point me to the rule wording in the Caress of Death that allows you to mix and match it with the Kiss of Death? Presumably, the BRB restriction would apply to both weapons, so both weapons need an exemption. If you're correct, you wouldn't be able to use the Caress to attack at all because that would be mixing and matching the Caress of Death with another weapon ability (still prohibited from doing so in the BRB).

So, if you're correct, you can never, ever attack with the Harlequin's Caress. If I'm correct, you can attack with either, but gain benefit only from the weapon you're attacking with. Honestly, which seems more likely?

I agree that it was meant to function in tandem, I also agree with the Kiss always being forced to attack, though I am checking another posters rebuttal to something, so retain the right to alter my position, or refute your position in a later post. As to the Most likely.....It is GW, so there is no such thing, as they have been known to make changes between versions of their own FAQ's.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Um. How is he able to make an attack - triggered by a weapon special rule - with a weapon he's not swinging with? Using your argument, a model could only ever swing with a Kiss.

That's your argument. The KoD rule requires that the solitaire makes a KoD attack whenever he attacks in close combat. If you're saying he can't do that when attacking with the caress then he can't attack with the caress without breaking rules.

Actually, that's my argument. I know because I wrote it.

Perhaps you could use his words to craft his argument?

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Being forced to only attack with the HK would violate the rule saying that if you have multiple weapons, you can decide which to attack with. So there's that. That's one. Zero is still less than one.

Again with the lie. Not making a KoD attack breaks the KoD rule deliberately lying about that and repeating that lie illustrates you know your argument is completely flawed. Your concession is accepted.

I've asked before and I'll keep asking because I'm a gentleman. STOP calling me a 'deliberate liar' and STOP putting words in my mouth. I offered no concession. You are not keeping this debate even remotely polite.

I am trying to then you repeat stuff you know is untrue and deliberate repeat lies. So in order to remain polite can you please refrain from doing that and retract that break the KoD rule is not breaking any rules statement.

So, you're the arbiter of what I know to be untrue? Again, please stop putting words in my mouth and please stop calling me a liar. I do not appreciate it and it damages this forum.

Nope but it was a point brought up and covered before. You well know what the KoD rule states so you know that not making a KoD attack breaks that rule, so you know that it doesn't break zero rules as you repeatedly tried to claim.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Um. How is he able to make an attack - triggered by a weapon special rule - with a weapon he's not swinging with? Using your argument, a model could only ever swing with a Kiss.

That's your argument. The KoD rule requires that the solitaire makes a KoD attack whenever he attacks in close combat. If you're saying he can't do that when attacking with the caress then he can't attack with the caress without breaking rules.

Actually, that's my argument. I know because I wrote it.

Perhaps you could use his words to craft his argument?

I know its your argument I never said it wasn't. So you believe the Solitaire can never use his caress correct?

 Kriswall wrote:


I've asked before and I'll keep asking because I'm a gentleman. STOP calling me a 'deliberate liar' and STOP putting words in my mouth. I offered no concession. You are not keeping this debate even remotely polite.

Indeed.

Worthy advice for all posters, please follow it.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Being forced to only attack with the HK would violate the rule saying that if you have multiple weapons, you can decide which to attack with. So there's that. That's one. Zero is still less than one.

Again with the lie. Not making a KoD attack breaks the KoD rule deliberately lying about that and repeating that lie illustrates you know your argument is completely flawed. Your concession is accepted.

I've asked before and I'll keep asking because I'm a gentleman. STOP calling me a 'deliberate liar' and STOP putting words in my mouth. I offered no concession. You are not keeping this debate even remotely polite.

I am trying to then you repeat stuff you know is untrue and deliberate repeat lies. So in order to remain polite can you please refrain from doing that and retract that break the KoD rule is not breaking any rules statement.

So, you're the arbiter of what I know to be untrue? Again, please stop putting words in my mouth and please stop calling me a liar. I do not appreciate it and it damages this forum.

Nope but it was a point brought up and covered before. You well know what the KoD rule states so you know that not making a KoD attack breaks that rule, so you know that it doesn't break zero rules as you repeatedly tried to claim.

Following the core rules in the rulebook which tell me I'm not allowed to use the Kiss of Death and then not using the Kiss of Death is breaking which core rule? Remember that you only gain the benefit of the Kiss of Death when attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss. The KoD is optional and contingent upon attacking with the HK. The restriction on mixing and matching is not optional.

 FlingitNow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Um. How is he able to make an attack - triggered by a weapon special rule - with a weapon he's not swinging with? Using your argument, a model could only ever swing with a Kiss.

That's your argument. The KoD rule requires that the solitaire makes a KoD attack whenever he attacks in close combat. If you're saying he can't do that when attacking with the caress then he can't attack with the caress without breaking rules.

Actually, that's my argument. I know because I wrote it.

Perhaps you could use his words to craft his argument?

I know its your argument I never said it wasn't. So you believe the Solitaire can never use his caress correct?

No, I don't. And haven't ever said that.
I said it was a consequence of your argument.

Following the core rules in the rulebook which tell me I'm not allowed to use the Kiss of Death and then not using the Kiss of Death is breaking which core rule? Remember that you only gain the benefit of the Kiss of Death when attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss. The KoD is optional and contingent upon attacking with the HK. The restriction on mixing and matching is not optional.

The KoD rule requires you make a KoD attack whenever a model equipped with a Harlequins Kiss attacks in close combat. So if you are equipped with a Harlequins Kiss and attacking in close combat you must make a KoD attack or you are breaking the Kiss of Death rule. The restriction on making a kiss of death attack is no it optional.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

No, I don't. And haven't ever said that.
I said it was a consequence of your argument.

I pointed out it was a consequence of yours pages ago. Glad you've caught up.,

 FlingitNow wrote:

Following the core rules in the rulebook which tell me I'm not allowed to use the Kiss of Death and then not using the Kiss of Death is breaking which core rule? Remember that you only gain the benefit of the Kiss of Death when attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss. The KoD is optional and contingent upon attacking with the HK. The restriction on mixing and matching is not optional.

The KoD rule requires you make a KoD attack whenever a model equipped with a Harlequins Kiss attacks in close combat. So if you are equipped with a Harlequins Kiss and attacking in close combat you must make a KoD attack or you are breaking the Kiss of Death rule. The restriction on making a kiss of death attack is no it optional.

How do I get benefits/restrictions from a special rule on a weapon I'm not using?

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Following the core rules in the rulebook which tell me I'm not allowed to use the Kiss of Death and then not using the Kiss of Death is breaking which core rule? Remember that you only gain the benefit of the Kiss of Death when attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss. The KoD is optional and contingent upon attacking with the HK. The restriction on mixing and matching is not optional.

The KoD rule requires you make a KoD attack whenever a model equipped with a Harlequins Kiss attacks in close combat. So if you are equipped with a Harlequins Kiss and attacking in close combat you must make a KoD attack or you are breaking the Kiss of Death rule. The restriction on making a kiss of death attack is no it optional.

How do I get benefits/restrictions from a special rule on a weapon I'm not using?

Through the magic of breaking the core rules. Oh, and HIWPI.