Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It's almost like taking statements out of context leads to an incorrect interpretation. Read what I replied to, please.

Have you read what you replied? Nothing in the statement said he was adding his own words in.

No, you can read them when you're told you have them.
For model special rules, it's when the rule is on the army list entry (for example).
For weapons, it's when the weapon is used.

I suppose you have rules support for the first statement? I'm pretty certain I can read the rules whenever I damn well please as I bought them exactly for that purpose.

No, I'm not. I'm making statements about how I'm viewing his argument based on what he's said. I haven't attacked the poster at all - I'm strictly discussing his argument.

Do you have anything of substance to add yet? Maybe a rule proving your assertions correct? You've yet to provide one.

You said he was "just want[ing] to present potential problems by making up rules." That is attacking him not his argument. I've proven and you've admitted that your interpretation is based on ignoring rules. You've claimed you don't have to read rules until another rule tells you to yet you have failed to cite any rules support for that assertation. Also how do you even start reading the rules if you're not allowed to read rules until anotherrule tells you to?

 NightHowler wrote:
[Permission to ignore requirement D is in the wording of the Harlequin's Kiss. It says that if the wargear is equipped you use it's special rule. That wording for the wargear is more specific than the rule from the BRB stating when you can benefit from a special rule and so it trumps it. I have said this before and it is how I address the issue you're saying I haven't addressed.

Where's the explicit permission required to generate the conflict?

As far as I can tell it doesn't exist.

 NightHowler wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
...yet you still ignore that you dont even get to read that phrase until you have the special rule.

And you demonstrably do NOT have that special rule until you use the weapon.

Until you address this flaw in your argument, you have no argument. Youre simply arguing intent.

This is false.

You get the rule when you equip the weapon as described in the rule for the wargear. The rule provided when the weapon is equipped is more specific than the rule you are basing your opinion on and therefore trumps it. You are told in the (more specific rule) that you do not need to use it to gain its benefit because it tells us it triggers "when equipped".

Incorrect. You do not have the special rule until you are told you have it. There is no conflict with the brb therefore no trump. Don't make unsupported leaps.
This has been proven.

 FlingitNow wrote:

It's almost like taking statements out of context leads to an incorrect interpretation. Read what I replied to, please.

Have you read what you replied? Nothing in the statement said he was adding his own words in.

I'd have to re-read it, but since you refuse to quote with context (for some reason) and I have no reason to defend my statements to you, I'm going to decline that.

No, you can read them when you're told you have them.
For model special rules, it's when the rule is on the army list entry (for example).
For weapons, it's when the weapon is used.

I suppose you have rules support for the first statement? I'm pretty certain I can read the rules whenever I damn well please as I bought them exactly for that purpose.

Welcome to the discussion. Again with the quoting out of context.

No, I'm not. I'm making statements about how I'm viewing his argument based on what he's said. I haven't attacked the poster at all - I'm strictly discussing his argument.

Do you have anything of substance to add yet? Maybe a rule proving your assertions correct? You've yet to provide one.

You said he was "just want[ing] to present potential problems by making up rules." That is attacking him not his argument. I've proven and you've admitted that your interpretation is based on ignoring rules. You've claimed you don't have to read rules until another rule tells you to yet you have failed to cite any rules support for that assertation. Also how do you even start reading the rules if you're not allowed to read rules until anotherrule tells you to?

How is my interpretation based on ignoring rules again? Where did I admit that?

Instead of attacking me, maybe you could attack the argument? Again, why are you applying the Kiss of Death rule when you have no permission to do so? You, again, declined to supply a rule allowing it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
...yet you still ignore that you dont even get to read that phrase until you have the special rule.

And you demonstrably do NOT have that special rule until you use the weapon.

Until you address this flaw in your argument, you have no argument. Youre simply arguing intent.

This is false.

You get the rule when you equip the weapon as described in the rule for the wargear. The rule provided when the weapon is equipped is more specific than the rule you are basing your opinion on and therefore trumps it. You are told in the (more specific rule) that you do not need to use it to gain its benefit because it tells us it triggers "when equipped".

Incorrect. You do not have the special rule until you are told you have it. There is no conflict with the brb therefore no trump. Don't make unsupported leaps.
This has been proven.

You have the special rule as soon as you equip wargear that tells you that you get a special rule when it's equipped.

You're quoting a general rule and saying that it trumps the specific rule that I am quoting. We know that this is not how its supposed to work. Specific rules trump general rules. This specific rule tells us that as soon as the wargear is equipped and attacks are made (no need to use the weapon is specified) then the rule triggers. That's all the player needs to know to use the rule.

Saying that you must deny the existence of a rule until a different rule has given you permission to read that rule is not in the BRB or any of the supplements I've purchased.

How is my interpretation based on ignoring rules again? Where did I admit that?

Instead of attacking me, maybe you could attack the argument? Again, why are you applying the Kiss of Death rule when you have no permission to do so? You, again, declined to supply a rule allowing it.

I have permission to use the rule, in fact I am forced to use the rule whenever the Solitaire is attacking in CC (or indeed for any model equipped with a HK). The Kiss of Death rule tells us this. You ignore this rule. Why?

Sigh

No, that's not the situation. The actual wargear does not state you gain special rule when equipped. The special rule tells you when it activates.

Meaning you go back a step. The actual rules state you only get a special rule from on your sheet or when using a weapon

Show a conflict that doesn't involve your circular logic.

You don't have a special rule until told so by the rule book, or specifically otherwise. Not from within a special rule itself

This is proven. Page and grAoh proving otherwise, or desist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

How is my interpretation based on ignoring rules again? Where did I admit that?

Instead of attacking me, maybe you could attack the argument? Again, why are you applying the Kiss of Death rule when you have no permission to do so? You, again, declined to supply a rule allowing it.

I have permission to use the rule, in fact I am forced to use the rule whenever the Solitaire is attacking in CC (or indeed for any model equipped with a HK). The Kiss of Death rule tells us this. You ignore this rule. Why?

You do not have the rule until you use the weapon, for a start.

Your continued denial of the existence of this rule is bizarre.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sigh

No, that's not the situation. The actual wargear does not state you gain special rule when equipped. The special rule tells you when it activates.

Meaning you go back a step. The actual rules state you only get a special rule from on your sheet or when using a weapon

Show a conflict that doesn't involve your circular logic.

You don't have a special rule until told so by the rule book, or specifically otherwise. Not from within a special rule itself

This is proven. Page and grAoh proving otherwise, or desist.

Sigh

The wargear has a special rule. That special rule says that when the wargear is equipped and the model makes attacks it triggers a Kiss of Death attack. We do not need permission from the BRB to read the special rules on our wargear - we just need the rules from the wargear's description.

If it is equipped and tells us we get a special rule when it's equipped we get to use it's special rules when it's equipped.

 FlingitNow wrote:

How is my interpretation based on ignoring rules again? Where did I admit that?

Instead of attacking me, maybe you could attack the argument? Again, why are you applying the Kiss of Death rule when you have no permission to do so? You, again, declined to supply a rule allowing it.

I have permission to use the rule, in fact I am forced to use the rule whenever the Solitaire is attacking in CC (or indeed for any model equipped with a HK). The Kiss of Death rule tells us this. You ignore this rule. Why?

I'm not ignoring this rule.
A model attacking with Harlequin's Caress doesn't have the Kiss of Death rule, even if he has a Harlequin's Kiss.

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

How is my interpretation based on ignoring rules again? Where did I admit that?

Instead of attacking me, maybe you could attack the argument? Again, why are you applying the Kiss of Death rule when you have no permission to do so? You, again, declined to supply a rule allowing it.

I have permission to use the rule, in fact I am forced to use the rule whenever the Solitaire is attacking in CC (or indeed for any model equipped with a HK). The Kiss of Death rule tells us this. You ignore this rule. Why?

I'm not ignoring this rule.
A model attacking with Harlequin's Caress doesn't have the Kiss of Death rule, even if he has a Harlequin's Kiss.

That's not what the Harlequin's Kiss says.

 NightHowler wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sigh

No, that's not the situation. The actual wargear does not state you gain special rule when equipped. The special rule tells you when it activates.

Meaning you go back a step. The actual rules state you only get a special rule from on your sheet or when using a weapon

Show a conflict that doesn't involve your circular logic.

You don't have a special rule until told so by the rule book, or specifically otherwise. Not from within a special rule itself

This is proven. Page and grAoh proving otherwise, or desist.

Sigh

The wargear has a special rule. That special rule says that when the wargear is equipped and the model makes attacks it triggers a Kiss of Death attack. We do not need permission from the BRB to read the special rules on our wargear - we just need the rules from the wargear's description.

If it is equipped and tells us we get a special rule when it's equipped we get to use it's special rules when it's equipped.

Correction. The weapon has a special rule. How does a model get special rules from a weapon?

rigeld2 wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sigh

No, that's not the situation. The actual wargear does not state you gain special rule when equipped. The special rule tells you when it activates.

Meaning you go back a step. The actual rules state you only get a special rule from on your sheet or when using a weapon

Show a conflict that doesn't involve your circular logic.

You don't have a special rule until told so by the rule book, or specifically otherwise. Not from within a special rule itself

This is proven. Page and grAoh proving otherwise, or desist.

Sigh

The wargear has a special rule. That special rule says that when the wargear is equipped and the model makes attacks it triggers a Kiss of Death attack. We do not need permission from the BRB to read the special rules on our wargear - we just need the rules from the wargear's description.

If it is equipped and tells us we get a special rule when it's equipped we get to use it's special rules when it's equipped.

Correction. The weapon has a special rule. How does a model get special rules from a weapon?

It's funny you ask, because that piece of wargear tells you how you get the special rule from it. When it's equipped.

 NightHowler wrote:
It's funny you ask, because that piece of wargear tells you how you get the special rule from it. When it's equipped.

Please stop saying wargear - it's a weapon.
Weapons have specific rules on how their special rules work, correct?

rigeld2 wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
It's funny you ask, because that piece of wargear tells you how you get the special rule from it. When it's equipped.

Please stop saying wargear - it's a weapon.
Weapons have specific rules on how their special rules work, correct?

Weapons are found in the wargear section because they are wargear.
This special rule for this piece of wargear says how it works: When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes close combat attacks...
The trigger for this special rule does not require you to attack with this piece of wargear, unlike almost all the other examples of wargear with similar special rules. Making this piece of wargear different.

 NightHowler wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
...yet you still ignore that you dont even get to read that phrase until you have the special rule.

And you demonstrably do NOT have that special rule until you use the weapon.

Until you address this flaw in your argument, you have no argument. Youre simply arguing intent.

This is false.

You get the rule when you equip the weapon as described in the rule for the wargear. The rule provided when the weapon is equipped is more specific than the rule you are basing your opinion on and therefore trumps it. You are told in the (more specific rule) that you do not need to use it to gain its benefit because it tells us it triggers "when equipped".

We've shown a core rule that says a model's attacks gain benefit from a weapon special rule when that weapon is being used. There is NO core rule saying that a model's attacks gain benefit from a weapon special rule when that weapon is not being used.

You have yet to show permission to benefit from the Kiss of Death rule in the first place. We don't care how the Kiss of Death is worded if your attacks aren't benefiting from the rule.

This is the core of the issue.

You are using the way other weapon special rules are worded to infer permission to use Kiss of Death when the BRB hasn't said you can. We are saying that since...

A. This is a permissive rule set
B. We are not given permission to use a weapon special rule when the weapon is not being used
C. We are told specifically that we can't attack with one weapon and use a special rule from another weapon

...we aren't able to benefit from Kiss of Death if not using the Harlequin's Kiss.

So, the question remains... what gives you permission to use the Kiss of Death rule? You're missing this extremely key element. This is a permissive rule set. Not only do you have no permission to gain Kiss of Death when not using a Harlequin's Kiss, but you have an explicit restriction preventing you from gaining Kiss of Death when not using a Harlequin's Kiss.

Do you understand? You're told you can't use the rule... but you're using the rule to override being told you can't use the rule, which you can't do... because you can't use the rule. In other words, if the rule says "A happens if B and C are true" but the general core rules also require D to be true... A only happens if B, C and D are true.

A. Model makes a Kiss of Death attack.

B. Model is equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss
C. Model is attacking
D. Model is using a Harlequin's Kiss during the attack

Cite permission to ignore requirement D. You have yet to do so.

Permission to ignore requirement D is in the wording of the Harlequin's Kiss. It says that if the wargear is equipped you use it's special rule. That wording for the wargear is more specific than the rule from the BRB stating when you can benefit from a special rule and so it trumps it. I have said this before and it is how I address the issue you're saying I haven't addressed.

I agree that it is a permissive rule set. I disagree that a specific rule (Harlequin's Kiss) is not allowed to break a general rule (What Special Rules Do I Have). Because the Harlequin's Kiss is more specific and because it tells us to trigger the special rule when the weapon is equipped and when the model makes close combat attacks, it trumps the requirement that the model attack with the weapon.

Instead of saying I haven't addressed this issue, please say you disagree with (part X) of how I have addressed it.

Fair.

I disagree with this part...

The core rulebook tells you that your attacks don't gain the Kiss of Death special rule. Your permission to ignore this restriction requires a special rule you don't have. At the point when you try to decide whether or not your attack gains the Kiss of Death rule, you don't have access to the Kiss of Death rule... so you can't use having it as justification to gaining it.

This is what we mean by circular reasoning.

"You don't have Kiss of Death."
"I do."
"What is telling you that you do?"
"The Kiss of Death rule."
"But you don't have the Kiss of Death rule."
"I do."
"What is telling you that you do?"
"The Kiss of Death rule."
"But you don't have the Kiss of Death rule."
etc, etc

Since the BRB is restricting you from having access to the Kiss of Death rule when not attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss, you'd need specific wording saying "this weapon ability/special rule may be used even when not attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss". Without specific wording like that, there is no real conflict. It doesn't matter what the rule says, because your attacks don't gain the rule unless you're using the Harlequin's Kiss... which you aren't when attacking with the Harlequin's Caress.

This is my core disagreement. Your permission to gain the rule requires that you already have the rule. If you don't have the rule, the rules text doesn't mean anything.

 NightHowler wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
It's funny you ask, because that piece of wargear tells you how you get the special rule from it. When it's equipped.

Please stop saying wargear - it's a weapon.
Weapons have specific rules on how their special rules work, correct?

Weapons are found in the wargear section because they are wargear.
This special rule for this piece of wargear says how it works: When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes close combat attacks...
The trigger for this special rule does not require you to attack with this piece of wargear, unlike almost all the other examples of wargear with similar special rules. Making this piece of wargear different.

Do weapons have a specific rule addressing how their special rules work, or am I imagining things?

 Kriswall wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:


Permission to ignore requirement D is in the wording of the Harlequin's Kiss. It says that if the wargear is equipped you use it's special rule. That wording for the wargear is more specific than the rule from the BRB stating when you can benefit from a special rule and so it trumps it. I have said this before and it is how I address the issue you're saying I haven't addressed.

I agree that it is a permissive rule set. I disagree that a specific rule (Harlequin's Kiss) is not allowed to break a general rule (What Special Rules Do I Have). Because the Harlequin's Kiss is more specific and because it tells us to trigger the special rule when the weapon is equipped and when the model makes close combat attacks, it trumps the requirement that the model attack with the weapon.

Instead of saying I haven't addressed this issue, please say you disagree with (part X) of how I have addressed it.

Fair.

I disagree with this part...

The core rulebook tells you that your attacks don't gain the Kiss of Death special rule. Your permission to ignore this restriction requires a special rule you don't have. At the point when you try to decide whether or not your attack gains the Kiss of Death rule, you don't have access to the Kiss of Death rule... so you can't use having it as justification to gaining it.

This is what we mean by circular reasoning.

"You don't have Kiss of Death."
"I do."
"What is telling you that you do?"
"The Kiss of Death rule."
"But you don't have the Kiss of Death rule."
"I do."
"What is telling you that you do?"
"The Kiss of Death rule."
"But you don't have the Kiss of Death rule."
etc, etc

Since the BRB is restricting you from having access to the Kiss of Death rule when not attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss, you'd need specific wording saying "this weapon ability/special rule may be used even when not attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss". Without specific wording like that, there is no real conflict. It doesn't matter what the rule says, because your attacks don't gain the rule unless you're using the Harlequin's Kiss... which you aren't when attacking with the Harlequin's Caress.

This is my core disagreement. Your permission to gain the rule requires that you already have the rule. If you don't have the rule, the rules text doesn't mean anything.

Kriswall, this is why I like debating with you. You actually read what other people write and reply thoughtfully.

I understand the basis of your argument to be that you cannot use the special rules from more than one weapon because of the more than one weapon rule on page 41 which says, "if a model has more than one melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different melee weapons." and since the Kiss of Death is one of the Harlequin's Kiss' special abilities, you are not allowed to use it if you have used any other weapon's abilities.

You have a very strong argument and I will admit that you are probably correct. The reason I joined this discussion is because the claim was made earlier in the thread that "you must use the weapon to gain it's abilities", but there are other weapons where this is not the case. Examples have been mentioned earlier but the only one that concerns me is the Rune Priest's Runic Weapon which grant's adamantium will if the model is equipped with the weapon. Adamantium will is not an attack ability, and if the statement "you must use the weapon to gain it's abilities" is true then pieces of wargear like the Runic Weapon would cease to grant their special rules except in the combat phase when using the weapon to strike blows, rendering it useless.

I don't play Eldar and have little interest in whether or not the wargear works this way or not, but I thought that debating it would help me understand whether or not this statement is true: "you must use a weapon to gain it's abilities".

Since you're basing your argument on the More Than One Weapon rule and not on the What Special Rules Do I Have rule, I think I can safely concede that the Harlequin's Kiss will not grant the Kiss of Death special rule if you have used the special rules from a different weapon while maintaining that Runic Weapons grant Ward outside of the assault phase - no need to use the Runic Weapon to gain Adamantium Will since you are not using a different weapon in your opponent's psychic phase and thus not breaking the More Than One Weapon rule.

Please believe me when I say that I haven't been trolling, I've been playing devil's advocate to help me get a grasp on how this argument affects my army.

rigeld2 wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
It's funny you ask, because that piece of wargear tells you how you get the special rule from it. When it's equipped.

Please stop saying wargear - it's a weapon.
Weapons have specific rules on how their special rules work, correct?

Weapons are found in the wargear section because they are wargear.
This special rule for this piece of wargear says how it works: When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes close combat attacks...
The trigger for this special rule does not require you to attack with this piece of wargear, unlike almost all the other examples of wargear with similar special rules. Making this piece of wargear different.

Do weapons have a specific rule addressing how their special rules work, or am I imagining things?

Weapons have general permission to give the bearer special rules whilst using them, this rule does not state that there is no other ways for weapons to give the bearer special rules. The Harlequins Kiss has specific permission to alter the bearers attacks as long as he is simply equipped. So even if the basic rule said you may ONLY get rules from a weapon if using it, the more specific case of Kiss of Death would over rule that. So again I ask if you are equipped with a Harlequins kiss and making close combat attacks why are you not making a Kiss of Death attack? The rules literally REQUIRE you to do so.

 FlingitNow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
It's funny you ask, because that piece of wargear tells you how you get the special rule from it. When it's equipped.

Please stop saying wargear - it's a weapon.
Weapons have specific rules on how their special rules work, correct?

Weapons are found in the wargear section because they are wargear.
This special rule for this piece of wargear says how it works: When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes close combat attacks...
The trigger for this special rule does not require you to attack with this piece of wargear, unlike almost all the other examples of wargear with similar special rules. Making this piece of wargear different.

Do weapons have a specific rule addressing how their special rules work, or am I imagining things?

Weapons have general permission to give the bearer special rules whilst using them, this rule does not state that there is no other ways for weapons to give the bearer special rules. The Harlequins Kiss has specific permission to alter the bearers attacks as long as he is simply equipped. So even if the basic rule said you may ONLY get rules from a weapon if using it, the more specific case of Kiss of Death would over rule that. So again I ask if you are equipped with a Harlequins kiss and making close combat attacks why are you not making a Kiss of Death attack? The rules literally REQUIRE you to do so.

The reason it does not grant Kiss of Death is not because you have to use it to gain it's special ability, it's because you have already used the special ability from a different rule and cannot mix the special abilities from more than one weapon. This is from the more than one weapon rule on page 41, which states that you cannot mix abilities from multiple weapons in combat.

I'm afraid they are correct. You cannot use the Harlequin Kiss' Kiss of Death if you have used the special rules from any other weapon in close combat.

The reason it does not grant Kiss of Death is not because you have to use it to gain it's special ability, it's because you have already used the special ability from a different rule and cannot mix the special abilities from more than one weapon. This is from the more than one weapon rule on page 41, which states that you cannot mix abilities from multiple weapons in combat.

I'm afraid they are correct. You cannot use the Harlequin Kiss' Kiss of Death if you have used the special rules from any other weapon in close combat.

The Kiss of Death rule does not care what special rules the user has (even itself) it only cares if someone is attacking in close combat and equipped with a Harlequins Kiss. If you meet those 2 criteria then you must (there is no choice involved) make a Kiss of Death attack. If you meet those criteria and don't make a KoD attack you are breaking the rules. If your interpretatiom requires you break a codex rule (without a more specific exemption) it is incorrect.

 FlingitNow wrote:

The reason it does not grant Kiss of Death is not because you have to use it to gain it's special ability, it's because you have already used the special ability from a different rule and cannot mix the special abilities from more than one weapon. This is from the more than one weapon rule on page 41, which states that you cannot mix abilities from multiple weapons in combat.

I'm afraid they are correct. You cannot use the Harlequin Kiss' Kiss of Death if you have used the special rules from any other weapon in close combat.

The Kiss of Death rule does not care what special rules the user has (even itself) it only cares if someone is attacking in close combat and equipped with a Harlequins Kiss. If you meet those 2 criteria then you must (there is no choice involved) make a Kiss of Death attack. If you meet those criteria and don't make a KoD attack you are breaking the rules. If your interpretatiom requires you break a codex rule (without a more specific exemption) it is incorrect.

While the Kiss of Death special rule does not require you to attack with that weapon to trigger, it is a special ability for one of the two weapons you have, and both weapons have special abilities that you are trying to use. While you do not need to use the weapon to gain the special ability you are not given permission by the rule "Kiss of Death" to break the rule "More Than One Weapon" and so are not allowed to choose more than one ability when attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss and Harlequin's Caress together.

What I find most hilarious about this whole debate is that it can only apply to 1 model. And a Unique model at that.

And given how may attacks the Caress has on the Solitare, the Kiss is almost not needed.

FYI, my opinion is that the Kiss "should" work even if using a different weapon b/c it is only 1 of your atx, however I cannot find a RAW argument that supports this. Even equipped, you are attacking with the Kiss, therefore precluding the ability to use a second weapon

*IF* this ever gets an FAQ, I fully expect it to go the way of the 5th ed Dreadknight, and allow all special rules to apply just because they are equipped. However, until then however, it is up to your opponent/TO to decide.

While the Kiss of Death special rule does not require you to attack with that weapon to trigger, it is a special ability for one of the two weapons you have, and both weapons have special abilities that you are trying to use. While you do not need to use the weapon to gain the special ability you are not given permission by the rule "Kiss of Death" to break the rule "More Than One Weapon" and so are not allowed to choose more than one ability when attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss and Harlequin's Caress together.

Regardless if you are attacking in CC and equipped with a Kiss you MUST make a Kiss of Death attack. We have 2 options here. Either attacking with the caress causes a conflict between a Codex and a BrB rule in which case we know how to resolve that. Or you may never use another CCW if equipped with a Kiss. This is undeniable RaW.

"Please stop saying wargear - it's a weapon.
Weapons have specific rules on how their special rules work, correct? "

All weapons are wargear. If you don't believe me, go look at your army list on how you buy them.

Also stop saying a weapon only gets special rules when it is used, as the attack, and yes it is the attack, gets a special rule from a weapon being used. So every weapon in the game using your interpretation does not provide any special rule to anything except the attack, thus fearless, fnp and every other non attack special rule does literally nothing.

 FlingitNow wrote:

While the Kiss of Death special rule does not require you to attack with that weapon to trigger, it is a special ability for one of the two weapons you have, and both weapons have special abilities that you are trying to use. While you do not need to use the weapon to gain the special ability you are not given permission by the rule "Kiss of Death" to break the rule "More Than One Weapon" and so are not allowed to choose more than one ability when attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss and Harlequin's Caress together.

Regardless if you are attacking in CC and equipped with a Kiss you MUST make a Kiss of Death attack. We have 2 options here. Either attacking with the caress causes a conflict between a Codex and a BrB rule in which case we know how to resolve that. Or you may never use another CCW if equipped with a Kiss. This is undeniable RaW.

If you believe that taking the Harlequin's Kiss means that you are forced to make a Kiss attack then taking it with other special weapons would prevent you from ever making attacks with the other weapon you take (although you would still get the +1 attack for having 2 weapons).

If that's how you would play it, then don't ever take any additional weapons with the Harlequin's Kiss besides perhaps a pistol or close combat weapon.

"Correction. The weapon has a special rule. How does a model get special rules from a weapon? "

The same way a model gets a special rule from any other piece of wargear. Then an attack may also benefit from a special rule from a weapon.

Or never.....Because the rule says that the model's attack benefits from a weapons special rule. It never says the model benefits.

It is not my belief it is literally what the rules say. If you are equipped with a Harlequins kiss and you are attacking in close combat you must make a Kiss of Death attack. That is not my belief nor my opinion that is just what the rules say. So can we agree that the rules are correct when they say this? Or are the rules wrong?

"I have permission to apply Special Rules on my Army List entry to my model. Correct?"

Yes, from the army list, unit entry, psychic power, scenario special rule, or terrain. These are the listed ways to get a special rule.

Note Detachments, formations, and wargear are not listed. These are assumed to be able to be used.

The detachment "Command Benefits" require you to reference Command Benefits to apply command benefits, so may not be used as you are not allowed to self reference a rule to use a rule.

Also note, that ALL weapons are Wargear, so any statement regarding Wargear also apply to weapons.

The Second sentence under the What Special Rules do I have is "That said, a model's attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it it using." This is the only listed way a model's attacks are allowed to gain a special rule. We do however assume that special rules given to a model work on attacks. When we reference the rule, but then we can't reference the rule to get permission to use the rule, so I guess not.

 NightHowler wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:


Permission to ignore requirement D is in the wording of the Harlequin's Kiss. It says that if the wargear is equipped you use it's special rule. That wording for the wargear is more specific than the rule from the BRB stating when you can benefit from a special rule and so it trumps it. I have said this before and it is how I address the issue you're saying I haven't addressed.

I agree that it is a permissive rule set. I disagree that a specific rule (Harlequin's Kiss) is not allowed to break a general rule (What Special Rules Do I Have). Because the Harlequin's Kiss is more specific and because it tells us to trigger the special rule when the weapon is equipped and when the model makes close combat attacks, it trumps the requirement that the model attack with the weapon.

Instead of saying I haven't addressed this issue, please say you disagree with (part X) of how I have addressed it.

Fair.

I disagree with this part...

The core rulebook tells you that your attacks don't gain the Kiss of Death special rule. Your permission to ignore this restriction requires a special rule you don't have. At the point when you try to decide whether or not your attack gains the Kiss of Death rule, you don't have access to the Kiss of Death rule... so you can't use having it as justification to gaining it.

This is what we mean by circular reasoning.

"You don't have Kiss of Death."
"I do."
"What is telling you that you do?"
"The Kiss of Death rule."
"But you don't have the Kiss of Death rule."
"I do."
"What is telling you that you do?"
"The Kiss of Death rule."
"But you don't have the Kiss of Death rule."
etc, etc

Since the BRB is restricting you from having access to the Kiss of Death rule when not attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss, you'd need specific wording saying "this weapon ability/special rule may be used even when not attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss". Without specific wording like that, there is no real conflict. It doesn't matter what the rule says, because your attacks don't gain the rule unless you're using the Harlequin's Kiss... which you aren't when attacking with the Harlequin's Caress.

This is my core disagreement. Your permission to gain the rule requires that you already have the rule. If you don't have the rule, the rules text doesn't mean anything.

Kriswall, this is why I like debating with you. You actually read what other people write and reply thoughtfully.

I understand the basis of your argument to be that you cannot use the special rules from more than one weapon because of the more than one weapon rule on page 41 which says, "if a model has more than one melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different melee weapons." and since the Kiss of Death is one of the Harlequin's Kiss' special abilities, you are not allowed to use it if you have used any other weapon's abilities.

You have a very strong argument and I will admit that you are probably correct. The reason I joined this discussion is because the claim was made earlier in the thread that "you must use the weapon to gain it's abilities", but there are other weapons where this is not the case. Examples have been mentioned earlier but the only one that concerns me is the Rune Priest's Runic Weapon which grant's adamantium will if the model is equipped with the weapon. Adamantium will is not an attack ability, and if the statement "you must use the weapon to gain it's abilities" is true then pieces of wargear like the Runic Weapon would cease to grant their special rules except in the combat phase when using the weapon to strike blows, rendering it useless.

I don't play Eldar and have little interest in whether or not the wargear works this way or not, but I thought that debating it would help me understand whether or not this statement is true: "you must use a weapon to gain it's abilities".

Since you're basing your argument on the More Than One Weapon rule and not on the What Special Rules Do I Have rule, I think I can safely concede that the Harlequin's Kiss will not grant the Kiss of Death special rule if you have used the special rules from a different weapon while maintaining that Runic Weapons grant Ward outside of the assault phase - no need to use the Runic Weapon to gain Adamantium Will since you are not using a different weapon in your opponent's psychic phase and thus not breaking the More Than One Weapon rule.

Please believe me when I say that I haven't been trolling, I've been playing devil's advocate to help me get a grasp on how this argument affects my army.

Fair, again.

And I think you have it exactly as I think of it. In the case of the Runic Weapon, you would benefit from Adamantium Will at all times EXCEPT when you come to strike blows (fight sub-phase) and are using a different weapon to attack. There is no restriction in the Psychic phase to prevent you from mixing and matching weapon abilities, so you're free to use the Runic Weapon at that point.

 Galef wrote:
What I find most hilarious about this whole debate is that it can only apply to 1 model. And a Unique model at that.

And given how may attacks the Caress has on the Solitare, the Kiss is almost not needed.

FYI, my opinion is that the Kiss "should" work even if using a different weapon b/c it is only 1 of your atx, however I cannot find a RAW argument that supports this. Even equipped, you are attacking with the Kiss, therefore precluding the ability to use a second weapon

*IF* this ever gets an FAQ, I fully expect it to go the way of the 5th ed Dreadknight, and allow all special rules to apply just because they are equipped. However, until then however, it is up to your opponent/TO to decide.

The thread is mostly about that but many of the codexs have one or two weapons that grants things for equipping them.

This thread is like saying force weapons do not work because force is listed with the weapon so the model cannot ever have the force power until the model strikes with the weapon and then only when striking, but since pyschic phase does not happen then the model may never use force.

Or.

Storm shields only give the 3++ at the models I step, any other time since the model is not using it to strike it may not get a 3++ because it is a weapon and they only get their special abilities when striking.

some people in this thread have invented a fictitious rule that states you may only gain the benefits of special rules that affect the model equipped with a piece of wargear when it strikes with the wargear (weaponit is wargear..), which does not exist anywhere in the rules. Some people have also invented the "you may only use the abilities of wargear when striking, if they are weapons"- which it does not say anywhere. There are many weapons that have special rules that require you to be striking with the weapon ie shred, caress- where the rule actually states something along the lines of "when making strikes with a weapon that has this special rule" as opposed to "when the model attacks in assault" one obviously is depenedent on striking with the weapon and falls under picking 1 weapon to strike with, 1 obviously is an ability of the model and not the weapon. Some people have a hard time dealing with that because the ability of the model, comes from having the weapon not striking with the weapon.

etc.