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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 16:32:15
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Massaen wrote:Just out of interest - assuming the weapon rules only apply when in use - how do people play the shield on the SW dread? It has a combat profile along with the invul save.
Does that mean you don't get the save unless you use the weapon in combat and cant use it outside of combat?
Let me quote the More Than One Weapon rule for you:
More Than One Weapon
If a model has more than one melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.
The Blizzard Shield gives the special rule "Shield" which is not an attack ability. The Blizzard Shield does have a weapon profile S-user AP-2, so it is a weapon. Unfortunately I have to say that RAW make it look like you can't use the shield ability unless you attack with it.
There is some question since "Shield" is not an attack ability that it may still be active, but that position is difficult to defend.
HIWPI: Shield works since it's not an attack ability
RAW: You probably can't use the shield in close combat at the initiative step you use your axe.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 16:44:02
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Screaming Shining Spear
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Thanks! It's nice to get a considered and courteous response! I agree it's a funny one (much like Eldrads staff or yriels spear)
The shield and these other examples are imo very clear intent wise. The kiss/caress combo only appears on 1 model which is unique... It could be implied that it was intended to work but I think I have to agree RAW that you can't combine them
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 16:53:26
Subject: So... Harlequins
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The Hive Mind
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NightHowler wrote:So to BOLDLY claim that the ONLY time a model EVER gets special rules from its weapon is when it uses it to attack is inaccurate.
You need permission for a model to get a special rule from a weapon. Correct?
The only permission I read in the rule book that deals with weapons has to do with a model's attacks. Correct?
Where is it stated otherwise? On the weapon. Do I have to attack for it to state otherwise? No. Are there any restrictions on it? Yes, but only when using more than one weapon.
Incorrect - you have no permission for a weapon to apply any special rules other than when it's attacking.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 16:55:22
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Regular Dakkanaut
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rigeld2 wrote: NightHowler wrote:So to BOLDLY claim that the ONLY time a model EVER gets special rules from its weapon is when it uses it to attack is inaccurate.
You need permission for a model to get a special rule from a weapon. Correct?
The only permission I read in the rule book that deals with weapons has to do with a model's attacks. Correct?
Where is it stated otherwise? On the weapon. Do I have to attack for it to state otherwise? No. Are there any restrictions on it? Yes, but only when using more than one weapon.
Incorrect - you have no permission for a weapon to apply any special rules other than when it's attacking.
You don't have a special rule unless stated otherwise.
I buy a weapon.
It states otherwise.
You're creating problems that don't exist.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 16:56:22
Subject: So... Harlequins
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The Hive Mind
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NightHowler wrote:rigeld2 wrote: NightHowler wrote:So to BOLDLY claim that the ONLY time a model EVER gets special rules from its weapon is when it uses it to attack is inaccurate.
You need permission for a model to get a special rule from a weapon. Correct?
The only permission I read in the rule book that deals with weapons has to do with a model's attacks. Correct?
Where is it stated otherwise? On the weapon. Do I have to attack for it to state otherwise? No. Are there any restrictions on it? Yes, but only when using more than one weapon.
Incorrect - you have no permission for a weapon to apply any special rules other than when it's attacking.
You don't have a special rule unless stated otherwise.
I buy a weapon.
It states otherwise.
You're creating problems that don't exist.
So where's the permission for a weapon to bestow a special rule? Please cite it.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 17:14:18
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Regular Dakkanaut
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rigeld2 wrote:
So where's the permission for a weapon to bestow a special rule? Please cite it.
Let me ask you a question and I think if you can answer it, you'll find that answer very enlightening:
Where's the permission for a piece of wargear to bestow a special rule?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 17:21:27
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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rigeld2 wrote: NightHowler wrote:rigeld2 wrote: NightHowler wrote:So to BOLDLY claim that the ONLY time a model EVER gets special rules from its weapon is when it uses it to attack is inaccurate.
You need permission for a model to get a special rule from a weapon. Correct?
The only permission I read in the rule book that deals with weapons has to do with a model's attacks. Correct?
Where is it stated otherwise? On the weapon. Do I have to attack for it to state otherwise? No. Are there any restrictions on it? Yes, but only when using more than one weapon.
Incorrect - you have no permission for a weapon to apply any special rules other than when it's attacking.
You don't have a special rule unless stated otherwise.
I buy a weapon.
It states otherwise.
You're creating problems that don't exist.
So where's the permission for a weapon to bestow a special rule? Please cite it.
Page 91, 2nd Column, 2nd paragraph Harlequin codex. Can we move on now? You keep asking for a citation that has been repeatedly provided yet refuse to support your arguments with relevant rules. This is most unhelpful, could you please in future either cite relevant rules, clearly markyour posts as HYWPI or post in a different thread as this approach is conducive to healthy discussion.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 17:36:06
Subject: So... Harlequins
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The Hive Mind
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NightHowler wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
So where's the permission for a weapon to bestow a special rule? Please cite it.
Let me ask you a question and I think if you can answer it, you'll find that answer very enlightening:
Where's the permission for a piece of wargear to bestow a special rule?
You do realize that "wargear" and "weapon" are not interchangeable, right? Automatically Appended Next Post: FlingitNow wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
So where's the permission for a weapon to bestow a special rule? Please cite it.
Page 91, 2nd Column, 2nd paragraph Harlequin codex. Can we move on now?
No. The citation includes nothing like permission for *a weapon* to *bestow a special rule*. The citation assumes a weapon can bestow a special rule.
In the future, please cite relevant rules instead of a rule that requires an assumption. In addition, please answer the questions that have been posed to you, directly.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/20 17:37:54
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 17:40:40
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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FlingitNow wrote:rigeld2 wrote: NightHowler wrote:rigeld2 wrote: NightHowler wrote:So to BOLDLY claim that the ONLY time a model EVER gets special rules from its weapon is when it uses it to attack is inaccurate.
You need permission for a model to get a special rule from a weapon. Correct?
The only permission I read in the rule book that deals with weapons has to do with a model's attacks. Correct?
Where is it stated otherwise? On the weapon. Do I have to attack for it to state otherwise? No. Are there any restrictions on it? Yes, but only when using more than one weapon.
Incorrect - you have no permission for a weapon to apply any special rules other than when it's attacking.
You don't have a special rule unless stated otherwise.
I buy a weapon.
It states otherwise.
You're creating problems that don't exist.
So where's the permission for a weapon to bestow a special rule? Please cite it.
Page 91, 2nd Column, 2nd paragraph Harlequin codex. Can we move on now? You keep asking for a citation that has been repeatedly provided yet refuse to support your arguments with relevant rules. This is most unhelpful, could you please in future either cite relevant rules, clearly markyour posts as HYWPI or post in a different thread as this approach is conducive to healthy discussion.
He didn't ask about the Kiss of Death rule. He asked for a citation showing general permission for A weapon to bestow A special rule. Generally speaking, and ignoring the Kiss of Death situation for now, what rules govern how and when a weapon bestows its special rules to a model or it's attacks? This is what is being asked for.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 17:46:09
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Regular Dakkanaut
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rigeld2 wrote: NightHowler wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
So where's the permission for a weapon to bestow a special rule? Please cite it.
Let me ask you a question and I think if you can answer it, you'll find that answer very enlightening:
Where's the permission for a piece of wargear to bestow a special rule?
You do realize that "wargear" and "weapon" are not interchangeable, right?
I buy my weapons from the Wargear section of my codex. They are in fact wargear that I can use to attack with. War + gear? War? Gear for War? Do you get it? If I bought it from a seperate section called "weapons" and not from a section called "wargear" I might be inclined to entertain your claim, but I don't.
Your claim that weapons are not wargear is just that. Your claim. Unfounded as it is.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 17:49:55
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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NightHowler wrote:rigeld2 wrote: NightHowler wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
So where's the permission for a weapon to bestow a special rule? Please cite it.
Let me ask you a question and I think if you can answer it, you'll find that answer very enlightening:
Where's the permission for a piece of wargear to bestow a special rule?
You do realize that "wargear" and "weapon" are not interchangeable, right?
I buy my weapons from the Wargear section of my codex. They are in fact wargear that I can use to attack with. War + gear? War? Gear for War? Do you get it? If I bought it from a seperate section called "weapons" and not from a section called "wargear" I might be inclined to entertain your claim, but I don't.
Your claim that weapons are not wargear is just that. Your claim. Unfounded as it is.
Weapons are certainly Wargear. They are routinely listed in the Wargear section of a unit's army list entry. Weapons are a special kind of Wargear that have additional rules surrounding how and when they grant special rules to models/attacks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 17:52:26
Subject: So... Harlequins
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The Hive Mind
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NightHowler wrote:rigeld2 wrote: NightHowler wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
So where's the permission for a weapon to bestow a special rule? Please cite it.
Let me ask you a question and I think if you can answer it, you'll find that answer very enlightening:
Where's the permission for a piece of wargear to bestow a special rule?
You do realize that "wargear" and "weapon" are not interchangeable, right?
I buy my weapons from the Wargear section of my codex. They are in fact wargear that I can use to attack with. War + gear? War? Gear for War? Do you get it? If I bought it from a seperate section called "weapons" and not from a section called "wargear" I might be inclined to entertain your claim, but I don't.
Your claim that weapons are not wargear is just that. Your claim. Unfounded as it is.
Weapons are wargear. I didn't say otherwise. I did, however, say that they are not interchangeable - which they aren't (Storm Shields and Power Armor don't have Weapon profiles for example).
Weapons have specific rules on how they bestow special rules.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 17:52:41
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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No. The citation includes nothing like permission for *a weapon* to *bestow a special rule*. The citation assumes a weapon can bestow a special rule.
In the future, please cite relevant rules instead of a rule that requires an assumption. In addition, please answer the questions that have been posed to you, directly.
Sorry I thought you were after a relevant rule (one that applies to this situation). In that case in general "what special rules do I have" contains the general permissions for weapons to give special rules there are other examples where specific permission exists for certain weapons to give special rules for instance the Kiss of death rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 17:53:26
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
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rigeld2 wrote: NightHowler wrote:So to BOLDLY claim that the ONLY time a model EVER gets special rules from its weapon is when it uses it to attack is inaccurate.
You need permission for a model to get a special rule from a weapon. Correct?
The only permission I read in the rule book that deals with weapons has to do with a model's attacks. Correct?
Where is it stated otherwise? On the weapon. Do I have to attack for it to state otherwise? No. Are there any restrictions on it? Yes, but only when using more than one weapon.
Incorrect - you have no permission for a weapon to apply any special rules other than when it's attacking.
But if a weapon has a special rule that grants a benefit merely from having it equipped (or bearing it), you are then given specific permission to utilize that special rule even when not "using" that weapon in combat. I personally believe this falls under the "Advanced Rule vs Basic Rule" conflict resolution. A special rule overrides a basic rule. The basic rule is, you can't gain special rules from two different melee weapons in combat when striking. The special rule for some of these weapons states you gain the benefit simply by having the piece of wargear, no need to actually use it. Since it specifically states that a model gains a benefit simply by equipping or bearing the weapon, you are not utilizing the benefit just "when striking" as you alway have that benefit.
For example, the Blade of Blood has the Bloodlust special rule which states the bearer of the weapon gains the Rampage special rule. That means that by equipping the Blade of Blood, that model now has the Rampage special rule. It has Rampage thru all stages of the game, not just when it strikes. When a weapon has a benefit that is granted simply by equipping it, that model gains that benefit throughout the game, not just when it strikes (however, those benefits may not actually do anything UNTIL the model strikes, but that's not relevent to the rule).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/20 17:55:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 17:53:56
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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rigeld2 wrote: NightHowler wrote:rigeld2 wrote: NightHowler wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
So where's the permission for a weapon to bestow a special rule? Please cite it.
Let me ask you a question and I think if you can answer it, you'll find that answer very enlightening:
Where's the permission for a piece of wargear to bestow a special rule?
You do realize that "wargear" and "weapon" are not interchangeable, right?
I buy my weapons from the Wargear section of my codex. They are in fact wargear that I can use to attack with. War + gear? War? Gear for War? Do you get it? If I bought it from a seperate section called "weapons" and not from a section called "wargear" I might be inclined to entertain your claim, but I don't.
Your claim that weapons are not wargear is just that. Your claim. Unfounded as it is.
Weapons are wargear. I didn't say otherwise. I did, however, say that they are not interchangeable - which they aren't (Storm Shields and Power Armor don't have Weapon profiles for example).
Weapons have specific rules on how they bestow special rules.
And are also governed by the rules covering wargear.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 18:02:57
Subject: So... Harlequins
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The Hive Mind
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FlingitNow wrote: No. The citation includes nothing like permission for *a weapon* to *bestow a special rule*. The citation assumes a weapon can bestow a special rule.
In the future, please cite relevant rules instead of a rule that requires an assumption. In addition, please answer the questions that have been posed to you, directly.
Sorry I thought you were after a relevant rule (one that applies to this situation).
So you weren't following the conversation?
In that case in general "what special rules do I have" contains the general permissions for weapons to give special rules
Are you sure? The only reference to "weapons" in that paragraph is how weapons bestow special rules on a model's attacks.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 18:03:34
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Regular Dakkanaut
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rigeld2 wrote:
Weapons are wargear. I didn't say otherwise. I did, however, say that they are not interchangeable - which they aren't (Storm Shields and Power Armor don't have Weapon profiles for example).
Weapons have specific rules on how they bestow special rules.
You still haven't answered my question.
Where's the permission for a piece of wargear to bestow a special rule?
I'd like a page number at least if you're able to find it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 18:04:29
Subject: So... Harlequins
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The Hive Mind
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ClassicCarraway wrote:rigeld2 wrote: NightHowler wrote:So to BOLDLY claim that the ONLY time a model EVER gets special rules from its weapon is when it uses it to attack is inaccurate.
You need permission for a model to get a special rule from a weapon. Correct?
The only permission I read in the rule book that deals with weapons has to do with a model's attacks. Correct?
Where is it stated otherwise? On the weapon. Do I have to attack for it to state otherwise? No. Are there any restrictions on it? Yes, but only when using more than one weapon.
Incorrect - you have no permission for a weapon to apply any special rules other than when it's attacking.
But if a weapon has a special rule that grants a benefit merely from having it equipped (or bearing it), you are then given specific permission to utilize that special rule even when not "using" that weapon in combat. I personally believe this falls under the "Advanced Rule vs Basic Rule" conflict resolution. A special rule overrides a basic rule. The basic rule is, you can't gain special rules from two different melee weapons in combat when striking. The special rule for some of these weapons states you gain the benefit simply by having the piece of wargear, no need to actually use it. Since it specifically states that a model gains a benefit simply by equipping or bearing the weapon, you are not utilizing the benefit just "when striking" as you alway have that benefit.
Again, can you cite a single rule that allows a weapon to bestow special rules outside of to a model's attacks?
I'm seriously asking.
For example, the Blade of Blood has the Bloodlust special rule which states the bearer of the weapon gains the Rampage special rule. That means that by equipping the Blade of Blood, that model now has the Rampage special rule. It has Rampage thru all stages of the game, not just when it strikes. When a weapon has a benefit that is granted simply by equipping it, that model gains that benefit throughout the game, not just when it strikes (however, those benefits may not actually do anything UNTIL the model strikes, but that's not relevent to the rule).
That might be the intent - and I'd play it that way. That isn't what the rules actually say. Automatically Appended Next Post: NightHowler wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
Weapons are wargear. I didn't say otherwise. I did, however, say that they are not interchangeable - which they aren't (Storm Shields and Power Armor don't have Weapon profiles for example).
Weapons have specific rules on how they bestow special rules.
You still haven't answered my question.
Where's the permission for a piece of wargear to bestow a special rule?
I'd like a page number at least if you're able to find it.
I have answered that question. Multiple times in fact. And you've replied to it.
So instead of asking for something I've already provided, perhaps you could get to your point?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/20 18:05:15
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 18:07:59
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Regular Dakkanaut
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rigeld2 wrote:
I have answered that question. Multiple times in fact. And you've replied to it.
So instead of asking for something I've already provided, perhaps you could get to your point?
No you haven't.
I want you to quote me the rule that specifically says you get special rules from wargear.
Not a paraphrase, a quote.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 18:09:34
Subject: So... Harlequins
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The Hive Mind
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NightHowler wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
I have answered that question. Multiple times in fact. And you've replied to it.
So instead of asking for something I've already provided, perhaps you could get to your point?
No you haven't.
I want you to quote me the rule that specifically says you get special rules from wargear.
Not a paraphrase, a quote.
Then we're done. Because I have provided that. And I refuse to interact with someone who is refusing to actually read what's being said, and refuses to cite rules support for their statements.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 18:14:56
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Sigh...
To hopefully stop this Wargear vs. Weapon debate...
Weapons are a form of Wargear.
Wargear items that have Special Rules grant those Special Rules to their owning models AT ALL TIMES unless restrictions are present. Weapons, on the other hand, only grant special rules to a model or its attacks when being used. "Used" is never defined in the rules, but I'm willing to allow the most vague and broad definition of "the model has the weapon".
There is a restriction present preventing Weapons from granting Special Rules to a model or its attacks during a Fight Sub-Phase where another Weapon is being used. This is the More Than One Weapon rule.
The net result is that non-Weapon Wargear works ALL THE TIME while Weapon Wargear works ALL THE TIME outside of the Fight Sub-Phase and only when being used to attack DURING the Fight Sub-Phase.
Examples:
1. A Runic Staff grants Adamantium Will AT ALL TIMES unless the owning model is using another Weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase.
2. A Harlequin's Kiss grants Kiss of Death AT ALL TIMES unless the owning model is using another Weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase.
FlingitNow's entire argument is predicated upon a model's attacks being allowed to gain a special rule from a weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase when not being used... a situation the core rules forbid. As he has no specific wording overriding this restriction (i.e. 'you can use the Kiss of Death attack even when not attacking with your Harlequin's Kiss'), we are forced to say his position is wrong.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 18:16:10
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Regular Dakkanaut
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rigeld2 wrote:
Then we're done. Because I have provided that. And I refuse to interact with someone who is refusing to actually read what's being said, and refuses to cite rules support for their statements.
Lol. You mean we're done because you can't quote anything specifically stating that wargear gives you a special rule. You can find where it says Army List Entry, or Unit Type, but nowhere does it say Wargear.
The reason it doesn't is because they expect you to be smart enough to understand that you would read the special rule on the wargear and apply it without being told you had to do that. Weapons are wargear and just like any other wargear they come with special rules, some of which do not require you to attack or use the weapon for those rules to trigger.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 18:27:49
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
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Kriswall wrote:Sigh...
To hopefully stop this Wargear vs. Weapon debate...
Weapons are a form of Wargear.
Wargear items that have Special Rules grant those Special Rules to their owning models AT ALL TIMES unless restrictions are present. Weapons, on the other hand, only grant special rules to a model or its attacks when being used. "Used" is never defined in the rules, but I'm willing to allow the most vague and broad definition of "the model has the weapon".
There is a restriction present preventing Weapons from granting Special Rules to a model or its attacks during a Fight Sub-Phase where another Weapon is being used. This is the More Than One Weapon rule.
The net result is that non-Weapon Wargear works ALL THE TIME while Weapon Wargear works ALL THE TIME outside of the Fight Sub-Phase and only when being used to attack DURING the Fight Sub-Phase.
Examples:
1. A Runic Staff grants Adamantium Will AT ALL TIMES unless the owning model is using another Weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase.
2. A Harlequin's Kiss grants Kiss of Death AT ALL TIMES unless the owning model is using another Weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase.
FlingitNow's entire argument is predicated upon a model's attacks being allowed to gain a special rule from a weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase when not being used... a situation the core rules forbid. As he has no specific wording overriding this restriction (i.e. 'you can use the Kiss of Death attack even when not attacking with your Harlequin's Kiss'), we are forced to say his position is wrong.
By this logic, a model using a weapon with the Specialist Weapon USR can NEVER gain +1 attack if it has multiple weapons with the Specialist Weapon USR, because the off-hand weapon is not being used, therefore, the Specialist Weapon USR can't be invoked.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 18:28:18
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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rigeld2 wrote: FlingitNow wrote: No. The citation includes nothing like permission for *a weapon* to *bestow a special rule*. The citation assumes a weapon can bestow a special rule.
In the future, please cite relevant rules instead of a rule that requires an assumption. In addition, please answer the questions that have been posed to you, directly.
Sorry I thought you were after a relevant rule (one that applies to this situation).
So you weren't following the conversation?
In that case in general "what special rules do I have" contains the general permissions for weapons to give special rules
Are you sure? The only reference to "weapons" in that paragraph is how weapons bestow special rules on a model's attacks.
Nope there is more there (for instance unless otherwise stated).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 18:30:35
Subject: So... Harlequins
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The Hive Mind
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ClassicCarraway wrote:By this logic, a model using a weapon with the Specialist Weapon USR can NEVER gain +1 attack if it has multiple weapons with the Specialist Weapon USR, because the off-hand weapon is not being used, therefore, the Specialist Weapon USR can't be invoked.
Correct. As has been covered multiple times in this thread.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 18:30:50
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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NightHowler wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
Then we're done. Because I have provided that. And I refuse to interact with someone who is refusing to actually read what's being said, and refuses to cite rules support for their statements.
Lol. You mean we're done because you can't quote anything specifically stating that wargear gives you a special rule. You can find where it says Army List Entry, or Unit Type, but nowhere does it say Wargear.
The reason it doesn't is because they expect you to be smart enough to understand that you would read the special rule on the wargear and apply it without being told you had to do that. Weapons are wargear and just like any other wargear they come with special rules, some of which do not require you to attack or use the weapon for those rules to trigger.
Yeah QED, I think we're done. RaW is clear, made up rules based on circular logic is not RaW no matter how much some people want it to be.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 18:38:03
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Regular Dakkanaut
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rigeld2 wrote: ClassicCarraway wrote:By this logic, a model using a weapon with the Specialist Weapon USR can NEVER gain +1 attack if it has multiple weapons with the Specialist Weapon USR, because the off-hand weapon is not being used, therefore, the Specialist Weapon USR can't be invoked.
Correct. As has been covered multiple times in this thread.
This is just one of multiple possible ludicrous scenarios that develop if you misread the rules this way.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 18:40:04
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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ClassicCarraway wrote: Kriswall wrote:Sigh...
To hopefully stop this Wargear vs. Weapon debate...
Weapons are a form of Wargear.
Wargear items that have Special Rules grant those Special Rules to their owning models AT ALL TIMES unless restrictions are present. Weapons, on the other hand, only grant special rules to a model or its attacks when being used. "Used" is never defined in the rules, but I'm willing to allow the most vague and broad definition of "the model has the weapon".
There is a restriction present preventing Weapons from granting Special Rules to a model or its attacks during a Fight Sub-Phase where another Weapon is being used. This is the More Than One Weapon rule.
The net result is that non-Weapon Wargear works ALL THE TIME while Weapon Wargear works ALL THE TIME outside of the Fight Sub-Phase and only when being used to attack DURING the Fight Sub-Phase.
Examples:
1. A Runic Staff grants Adamantium Will AT ALL TIMES unless the owning model is using another Weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase.
2. A Harlequin's Kiss grants Kiss of Death AT ALL TIMES unless the owning model is using another Weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase.
FlingitNow's entire argument is predicated upon a model's attacks being allowed to gain a special rule from a weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase when not being used... a situation the core rules forbid. As he has no specific wording overriding this restriction (i.e. 'you can use the Kiss of Death attack even when not attacking with your Harlequin's Kiss'), we are forced to say his position is wrong.
By this logic, a model using a weapon with the Specialist Weapon USR can NEVER gain +1 attack if it has multiple weapons with the Specialist Weapon USR, because the off-hand weapon is not being used, therefore, the Specialist Weapon USR can't be invoked.
Specialist Weapon works absolutely fine. Say I'm equipped with a Lightning Claw and a Power Fist. I choose to attack with the Lightning Claw. I gain the Specialist Weapon special rule from the Lightning Claw, but DO NOT gain it from the Power Fist as that would be mixing and matching weapon abilities. When I look at the rule (gained from my Lightning Claw), I am told that "A model fighting with this weapon (the Lightning Claw) does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule". Is my model armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule. Yes. The Lightning Claw has the rule and the Power Fist has the rule and my model is armed with both. Remember, there is a huge difference between a weapon having a rule and attacks made by a model gaining special rules from a weapon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 18:46:19
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Kriswall wrote: ClassicCarraway wrote: Kriswall wrote:Sigh...
To hopefully stop this Wargear vs. Weapon debate...
Weapons are a form of Wargear.
Wargear items that have Special Rules grant those Special Rules to their owning models AT ALL TIMES unless restrictions are present. Weapons, on the other hand, only grant special rules to a model or its attacks when being used. "Used" is never defined in the rules, but I'm willing to allow the most vague and broad definition of "the model has the weapon".
There is a restriction present preventing Weapons from granting Special Rules to a model or its attacks during a Fight Sub-Phase where another Weapon is being used. This is the More Than One Weapon rule.
The net result is that non-Weapon Wargear works ALL THE TIME while Weapon Wargear works ALL THE TIME outside of the Fight Sub-Phase and only when being used to attack DURING the Fight Sub-Phase.
Examples:
1. A Runic Staff grants Adamantium Will AT ALL TIMES unless the owning model is using another Weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase.
2. A Harlequin's Kiss grants Kiss of Death AT ALL TIMES unless the owning model is using another Weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase.
FlingitNow's entire argument is predicated upon a model's attacks being allowed to gain a special rule from a weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase when not being used... a situation the core rules forbid. As he has no specific wording overriding this restriction (i.e. 'you can use the Kiss of Death attack even when not attacking with your Harlequin's Kiss'), we are forced to say his position is wrong.
By this logic, a model using a weapon with the Specialist Weapon USR can NEVER gain +1 attack if it has multiple weapons with the Specialist Weapon USR, because the off-hand weapon is not being used, therefore, the Specialist Weapon USR can't be invoked.
Specialist Weapon works absolutely fine. Say I'm equipped with a Lightning Claw and a Power Fist. I choose to attack with the Lightning Claw. I gain the Specialist Weapon special rule from the Lightning Claw, but DO NOT gain it from the Power Fist as that would be mixing and matching weapon abilities. When I look at the rule (gained from my Lightning Claw), I am told that "A model fighting with this weapon (the Lightning Claw) does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule". Is my model armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule. Yes. The Lightning Claw has the rule and the Power Fist has the rule and my model is armed with both. Remember, there is a huge difference between a weapon having a rule and attacks made by a model gaining special rules from a weapon.
Kriswall, you are correct.
But with Rigeld's interpretation of the rules, your second weapon doesn't have the "Specialist Weapon" special rule unless you attack with it and since you cannot mix attacks from more than one weapon, you would never be able to "use" the second weapon and so never "activate" the special rule on it (the most important of which in this case is "specialist weapon"). So, according to his interpretation, you can never get the +1 attack from having 2 specialist weapons because only 1 will ever have a special rule you can use.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 18:50:46
Subject: So... Harlequins
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
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rigeld2 wrote: ClassicCarraway wrote:rigeld2 wrote: NightHowler wrote:So to BOLDLY claim that the ONLY time a model EVER gets special rules from its weapon is when it uses it to attack is inaccurate.
You need permission for a model to get a special rule from a weapon. Correct?
The only permission I read in the rule book that deals with weapons has to do with a model's attacks. Correct?
Where is it stated otherwise? On the weapon. Do I have to attack for it to state otherwise? No. Are there any restrictions on it? Yes, but only when using more than one weapon.
Incorrect - you have no permission for a weapon to apply any special rules other than when it's attacking.
But if a weapon has a special rule that grants a benefit merely from having it equipped (or bearing it), you are then given specific permission to utilize that special rule even when not "using" that weapon in combat. I personally believe this falls under the "Advanced Rule vs Basic Rule" conflict resolution. A special rule overrides a basic rule. The basic rule is, you can't gain special rules from two different melee weapons in combat when striking. The special rule for some of these weapons states you gain the benefit simply by having the piece of wargear, no need to actually use it. Since it specifically states that a model gains a benefit simply by equipping or bearing the weapon, you are not utilizing the benefit just "when striking" as you alway have that benefit.
Again, can you cite a single rule that allows a weapon to bestow special rules outside of to a model's attacks?
I'm seriously asking.
I did cite a rule that allows a weapon to bestow a special rule outside of a model's attacks. I cited the EXACT rule for the Blade of Blood that specifically grants a USR to a model that bears the weapon. Numerous people have cited the EXACT rule for Harlequin's Kiss that grants a special benefit if the weapon is equipped. If the weapon's special rule specifically states a model gains a rule simply by equiping, bearing, or carrying said weapon, that model gains the rule/benefits described because we are specifically told they do. This overrides the basic rule about multiple weapons because there is a conflict between the Advanced rule and the Basic rule.
Are we now given permission to ignore special rules that are on equipped wargear now? By not applying the rule for the Harlequin's Kiss to a model equipped with it, you are breaking the rule because you are specifically told to apply it if the weapon is equipped.
A newer example for this is the new Colossal special rule on the BT with the 2-handed axe. That rule specifically states that a model carrying the weapon piles in and strikes at Initiative Step 1. Why use vastly different wording than Unwieldy (which states a model attacking with) for the Colossal rule unless it means that the rule applies even if you are not attacking with that weapon?
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