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 NightHowler wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Sigh...

To hopefully stop this Wargear vs. Weapon debate...

Weapons are a form of Wargear.

Wargear items that have Special Rules grant those Special Rules to their owning models AT ALL TIMES unless restrictions are present. Weapons, on the other hand, only grant special rules to a model or its attacks when being used. "Used" is never defined in the rules, but I'm willing to allow the most vague and broad definition of "the model has the weapon".

There is a restriction present preventing Weapons from granting Special Rules to a model or its attacks during a Fight Sub-Phase where another Weapon is being used. This is the More Than One Weapon rule.

The net result is that non-Weapon Wargear works ALL THE TIME while Weapon Wargear works ALL THE TIME outside of the Fight Sub-Phase and only when being used to attack DURING the Fight Sub-Phase.

Examples:
1. A Runic Staff grants Adamantium Will AT ALL TIMES unless the owning model is using another Weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase.
2. A Harlequin's Kiss grants Kiss of Death AT ALL TIMES unless the owning model is using another Weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase.

FlingitNow's entire argument is predicated upon a model's attacks being allowed to gain a special rule from a weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase when not being used... a situation the core rules forbid. As he has no specific wording overriding this restriction (i.e. 'you can use the Kiss of Death attack even when not attacking with your Harlequin's Kiss'), we are forced to say his position is wrong.

By this logic, a model using a weapon with the Specialist Weapon USR can NEVER gain +1 attack if it has multiple weapons with the Specialist Weapon USR, because the off-hand weapon is not being used, therefore, the Specialist Weapon USR can't be invoked.

Specialist Weapon works absolutely fine. Say I'm equipped with a Lightning Claw and a Power Fist. I choose to attack with the Lightning Claw. I gain the Specialist Weapon special rule from the Lightning Claw, but DO NOT gain it from the Power Fist as that would be mixing and matching weapon abilities. When I look at the rule (gained from my Lightning Claw), I am told that "A model fighting with this weapon (the Lightning Claw) does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule". Is my model armed with two or more Melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule. Yes. The Lightning Claw has the rule and the Power Fist has the rule and my model is armed with both. Remember, there is a huge difference between a weapon having a rule and attacks made by a model gaining special rules from a weapon.

Kriswall, you are correct.

But with Rigeld's interpretation of the rules, your second weapon doesn't have the "Specialist Weapon" special rule unless you attack with it and since you cannot mix attacks from more than one weapon, you would never be able to "use" the second weapon and so never "activate" the special rule on it (the most important of which in this case is "specialist weapon"). So, according to his interpretation, you can never get the +1 attack from having 2 specialist weapons because only 1 will ever have a special rule you can use.

The second weapon always HAS the special rule, it just doesn't confer that rule to the model's attacks. That, I think, is why his interpretation is flawed. There is a huge difference between a weapon having a special rule (i.e. having it written in the weapon's profile) and conferring said rule to a model or its attacks. In the case of Specialist Weapon and my example above, we are never asking the Power Fist to confer Specialist Weapon to the model or its attacks. The instance of Specialist Weapon gained from the Lightning Claw is simply confirming that a second weapon (the Power Fist) has the Specialist Weapon special rule written on its profile.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I did cite a rule that allows a weapon to bestow a special rule outside of a model's attacks.

No. You cited what a single special rule does. What you're saying is this:
"What permission do you have to use the Rampage special rule?"
"Bloodlust gives it to me."
"What gives you Bloodlust?"
"Bloodlust."
"No, I mean what rule allows you to use Bloodlust?"
"Bloodlust."

That's not an argument. That's an assertion without support.

A newer example for this is the new Colossal special rule on the BT with the 2-handed axe. That rule specifically states that a model carrying the weapon piles in and strikes at Initiative Step 1. Why use vastly different wording than Unwieldy (which states a model attacking with) for the Colossal rule unless it means that the rule applies even if you are not attacking with that weapon?

Because GW has no idea what the rules they write actually mean?

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I did cite a rule that allows a weapon to bestow a special rule outside of a model's attacks.

No. You cited what a single special rule does. What you're saying is this:
"What permission do you have to use the Rampage special rule?"
"Bloodlust gives it to me."
"What gives you Bloodlust?"
"Bloodlust."
"No, I mean what rule allows you to use Bloodlust?"
"Bloodlust."

That's not an argument. That's an assertion without support.

A newer example for this is the new Colossal special rule on the BT with the 2-handed axe. That rule specifically states that a model carrying the weapon piles in and strikes at Initiative Step 1. Why use vastly different wording than Unwieldy (which states a model attacking with) for the Colossal rule unless it means that the rule applies even if you are not attacking with that weapon?

Because GW has no idea what the rules they write actually mean?

Where does it specifically state that a weapon's special rules ONLY apply if attacking with said special weapon? A special rule is just that, a rule that can override a basic rule. A weapon can have a special rule that grants another rule to the model, and it doesn't have to be when attacking. Multiple examples have been provided. The special rule will actually cover the specfics as to how to apply it. Where is it stated that I can ignore a special rule on an equipped weapon that specifically states the rule applies if its equipped?

Harlequin's Kiss specifically tells us we have permission to do something if its equipped. By stating I can't based on a basic rule, you are breaking the game rules because we are specifically told that advanced rules override basic rules. Advanced vs. Basic,Specific vs. General, however you want to look at it, the BRB limitation does not override a special rule. Its not like the special rule is worded unclearly, quite the opposite, its very specific.

Question: In 40K (7th edition), does a model have to use it's weapon to gain access to the special rules attached to that weapon.



Premise 1: 40K rulebook, p156 "...unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

Premise 2: 40K rulebook, p41 "Special Rules: The type section of a weapon's profile also includes any special rules that apply to the weapon in question."

Premise 3: 40K rulebook, p41 "More Than One Weapon: If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

Premise 4: 40K rulebook, p156 "That said, a model's attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.



Premise 1 tells us that we do not have special rules unless we are told that we have them. Premise 2 tells us that we can find special rules on weapons under the type section. Premise 3 is the only restriction on the special rules found on weapons telling us that we cannot mix and match special rules when attacking with that model's weapons. Premise 4 tells us that a model's attacks can gain special rules as well - but this is only referring to attacks and does not appear to restrict the other "non-attack" special rules found on the weapon given Premise 2.

Conclusion: There are two types of special rules found on weapons - those that affect attacks and those that do not. The ones that affect attacks can only be used when attacking and can only be taken from one weapon. The ones that do not affect attacks can be mixed and matched and do not require the weapon to be used to be accessed by the model.

i think this is important to this topic. What constitute mix and match abilities? Kriswall said it pretty well and i think he is right but i want to explore a bit more.

When does the mix and match rules comes into play? Will the logical flow goes like this during the sub phase:

1. All weapons and its abilities comes into play.
2. player must choice one weapon to be in "use"
3. mix and match rules comes in to block out all rules that INTERFERE with the weapon in use.

Since most weapons have something that interfere with the weapon in use, but KoD does not. of cause i am cherry picking on how i interpret "use". i also interpret the missing area in the rule on when and where abilities comes into play I am also putting a framework around what is "mix and match".

After all, why the hell not. is fun to explore.

adding:

Kriswell are using the common and logical way to define mix and match. But what if mix and match is define as you can't use 2 attack with power sword and 1 attack with power fist. instead of blocking out the whole text in the non weapon in use. if that the case, you are "using" all melee weapons and all weapons abilities are in "use". So i didn't mix and match my attacks. kisses are in "use" and therefore kicks in after and didn't constitute to be mix and match.

 NightHowler wrote:
Question: In 40K (7th edition), does a model have to use it's weapon to gain access to the special rules attached to that weapon.



Premise 1: 40K rulebook, p156 "...unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

Premise 2: 40K rulebook, p41 "Special Rules: The type section of a weapon's profile also includes any special rules that apply to the weapon in question."

Premise 3: 40K rulebook, p41 "More Than One Weapon: If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

Premise 4: 40K rulebook, p156 "That said, a model's attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.



Premise 1 tells us that we do not have special rules unless we are told that we have them. Premise 2 tells us that we can find special rules on weapons under the type section. Premise 3 is the only restriction on the special rules found on weapons telling us that we cannot mix and match special rules when attacking with that model's weapons. Premise 4 tells us that a model's attacks can gain special rules as well - but this is only referring to attacks and does not appear to restrict the other "non-attack" special rules found on the weapon given Premise 2.

Conclusion: There are two types of special rules found on weapons - those that affect attacks and those that do no. The ones that affect attacks can only be used when attacking and can only be taken from one weapon. The ones that do not affect attacks can be mixed and matched and do not require the weapon to be used to be accessed by the model.

So, what you are saying is that since "Kiss of Death" affects attacks, it can only be used when the model is attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss?

 Happyjew wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
Question: In 40K (7th edition), does a model have to use it's weapon to gain access to the special rules attached to that weapon.



Premise 1: 40K rulebook, p156 "...unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

Premise 2: 40K rulebook, p41 "Special Rules: The type section of a weapon's profile also includes any special rules that apply to the weapon in question."

Premise 3: 40K rulebook, p41 "More Than One Weapon: If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

Premise 4: 40K rulebook, p156 "That said, a model's attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.



Premise 1 tells us that we do not have special rules unless we are told that we have them. Premise 2 tells us that we can find special rules on weapons under the type section. Premise 3 is the only restriction on the special rules found on weapons telling us that we cannot mix and match special rules when attacking with that model's weapons. Premise 4 tells us that a model's attacks can gain special rules as well - but this is only referring to attacks and does not appear to restrict the other "non-attack" special rules found on the weapon given Premise 2.

Conclusion: There are two types of special rules found on weapons - those that affect attacks and those that do no. The ones that affect attacks can only be used when attacking and can only be taken from one weapon. The ones that do not affect attacks can be mixed and matched and do not require the weapon to be used to be accessed by the model.

So, what you are saying is that since "Kiss of Death" affects attacks, it can only be used when the model is attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss?

Yes

 NightHowler wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So, what you are saying is that since "Kiss of Death" affects attacks, it can only be used when the model is attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss?

Yes

Just wanted to make sure. With the exception of a few members, I've lost track of who is arguing for which side.

Though I still do like the interpretation that allows my non-Harlequin Codex Harlequins to benefit from a special rule that they do not have access to.

.

No. You cited what a single special rule does. What you're saying is this:
"What permission do you have to use the Rampage special rule?"
"Bloodlust gives it to me."
"What gives you Bloodlust?"
"Bloodlust."
"No, I mean what rule allows you to use Bloodlust?"
"Bloodlust."

That's not an argument. That's an assertion without support.

Please provide the rule that states bloodlust can not tell you when it applies. This is your circular logic. You prove bloodlust doesn't apply because you assume bloodlust doesn't apply and therefore you can't use bloodlust to tell you it applies. When your conclusion is one of your premises you are using circular logic.

So explain why bloodlust can't tell you when it applies without using circular logic but using, you know, actual rules.

Yeah, "It doesn't say I can't!" has always been a good, rules based argument.

Which is what you're saying. "Nothing says Bloodlust can't tell me when it applies, so it does! Also, Codex: Eldar dudes get free upgrades because Codex: Harlequins exists!"

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, "It doesn't say I can't!" has always been a good, rules based argument.

Which is what you're saying. "Nothing says Bloodlust can't tell me when it applies, so it does! Also, Codex: Eldar dudes get free upgrades because Codex: Harlequins exists!"

No bloodlust tells us it applies. Without circular logic can you explain why bloodlust doesn't apply, remembering bloodlust is an advanced codex rule.

What I'm saying is literally what the rules say. Unless you have some actual rules? Any at all that support your stance?

i thought harlequins were apart of the eldar, is there something i missed or is it a sub codex? i have never played eldar so i apologize for my ignorance

 FlingitNow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, "It doesn't say I can't!" has always been a good, rules based argument.

Which is what you're saying. "Nothing says Bloodlust can't tell me when it applies, so it does! Also, Codex: Eldar dudes get free upgrades because Codex: Harlequins exists!"

No bloodlust tells us it applies. Without circular logic can you explain why bloodlust doesn't apply, remembering bloodlust is an advanced codex rule.

Absolutely I can.

Please explain how you know you have the special rule Bloodlust, remembering that you do not have a special rule unless stated otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the clone wrote:
i thought harlequins were apart of the eldar, is there something i missed or is it a sub codex? i have never played eldar so i apologize for my ignorance

They have their own codex now, in addition to the Dark Eldar/Eldar units.

Absolutely I can.

Please explain how you know you have the special rule Bloodlust, remembering that you do not have a special rule unless stated otherwise.

Cool see the bloodlust rule it tells you when it applies. Just like Kiss of Death.

rigeld2 wrote:

 the clone wrote:
i thought harlequins were apart of the eldar, is there something i missed or is it a sub codex? i have never played eldar so i apologize for my ignorance

They have their own codex now, in addition to the Dark Eldar/Eldar units.

Slight correction. They've been removed from Dark Eldar.

still going strong.

More Than One Weapon: If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

a lot of people in this thread latch on to the last part of this statement "he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

and ignore the context.

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows

If a model chooses to strike with a weapon the model normally gains only the benefit of the special rules of that weapon because at the time of writing the BRB [keep in mind this is a basic rule in the BRB] if a weapon had a special rule the rule specfically states "when striking with a weapon that has shred player may do x" or "when striking with a weapon that armorbane, player may do y"

At the time of writing you would not be able to say you have 4 attacks and attack 3 times with a powerfist and 1 time with a bolt pistol - something you could do in previous editions.

the rule in question can easily be read as "you must choose one weapon to strike with, you may not benefit from abilities that require you to strike with other weapons"

Kiss of Death, colossal, the khorne bloodbath thing do not require you to strike with the weapon to benefit from their rule as per their specific advanced [wargear are advanced rules]. There is no conflict with picking a different weapon to those and still having the benefit of the rule, as you are not required to strike with the weapon to benefit from the rule. In fact there is no rule anywhere that states you may only benefit from the special rules of wargear/equipped items/weappns when striking with them. Some rules specifically state they only work when striking with the weapon [shred, armorbane, etc] and obviously fall under "hey you are not striking with that, therefore you cannot benefit from that"

Also if people want to latch onto the anecdote so much of

- he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons

and ignore the first part which is a rule when stating it they are going to have a hard time showing when the model cannot benefit, also theres the whole specific versus general, basic versus advanced rule...etc

and then of course if you want to take that completely verbatim any female model, or possibly female player can ignore it as it states "he" and not "she" for the people being anal retentive in this thread.

Therefore by the RaW female models may mix and match abilities as there is no rule preventing she/her from doing so

Thanks, Blaktoof. Excellently said. I tried to say it like 10 pages ago and it just got glossed over, unfortunately.

You would think after 18 pages of circular logic and arguing people would realize there's two camps and just agree to disagree. YMDC needs moderation so badly.

 Kriswall wrote:

FlingitNow's entire argument is predicated upon a model's attacks being allowed to gain a special rule from a weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase when not being used... a situation the core rules forbid. As he has no specific wording overriding this restriction (i.e. 'you can use the Kiss of Death attack even when not attacking with your Harlequin's Kiss'), we are forced to say his position is wrong.

The wording for the Harlequin's Kiss overrides the core rule book. Its just being ignored because it doesn't fit with how weapons generally work.

"When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..." I bolded the text for emphasis

Your interpretation would break the rule for the weapon because it requires you to ignore the bolded text,

Despite the desire to ignore Basic versus Advanced it would apply. There is nothing that states there has to be a specific wording or permission granted to override the core rule. It does state that "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules." The rule for an Harlequins kiss is an advanced rule and will override the core rule book. Its rule of "When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..." tells you exactly how to handle the situation, there is only confusion when you ignore parts of the Kiss's rule.

The solitaire is equipped with a kiss. When the solitaire makes its close combat attacks one will be a Kiss of Death. The rule provides no options for how the Kiss works. You are not choosing it. It happens of the basis of it being equipped, and will happen regardless of what is chosen. Per the rule, the model isn't making a kiss of death attack with the Harlequin's Kiss, but one of the model's attacks becomes a kiss of death. This will happen regardless of what the core rule book states because this is an advanced rule.

Trystis wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

FlingitNow's entire argument is predicated upon a model's attacks being allowed to gain a special rule from a weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase when not being used... a situation the core rules forbid. As he has no specific wording overriding this restriction (i.e. 'you can use the Kiss of Death attack even when not attacking with your Harlequin's Kiss'), we are forced to say his position is wrong.

The wording for the Harlequin's Kiss overrides the core rule book. Its just being ignored because it doesn't fit with how weapons generally work.

"When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..." I bolded the text for emphasis

Your interpretation would break the rule for the weapon because it requires you to ignore the bolded text,

Despite the desire to ignore Basic versus Advanced it would apply. There is nothing that states there has to be a specific wording or permission granted to override the core rule. It does state that "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules." The rule for an Harlequins kiss is an advanced rule and will override the core rule book. Its rule of "When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..." tells you exactly how to handle the situation, there is only confusion when you ignore parts of the Kiss's rule.

The solitaire is equipped with a kiss. When the solitaire makes its close combat attacks one will be a Kiss of Death. The rule provides no options for how the Kiss works. You are not choosing it. It happens of the basis of it being equipped, and will happen regardless of what is chosen. Per the rule, the model isn't making a kiss of death attack with the Harlequin's Kiss, but one of the model's attacks becomes a kiss of death. This will happen regardless of what the core rule book states because this is an advanced rule.

I'm swithchin' sides. That has got to be the best arguement for the Kiss. Basically a Solitaire can choose to use the Caress, but then HAS to have one if his attacks be the Kiss

 Galef wrote:

Trystis wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

FlingitNow's entire argument is predicated upon a model's attacks being allowed to gain a special rule from a weapon during the Fight Sub-Phase when not being used... a situation the core rules forbid. As he has no specific wording overriding this restriction (i.e. 'you can use the Kiss of Death attack even when not attacking with your Harlequin's Kiss'), we are forced to say his position is wrong.

The wording for the Harlequin's Kiss overrides the core rule book. Its just being ignored because it doesn't fit with how weapons generally work.

"When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..." I bolded the text for emphasis

Your interpretation would break the rule for the weapon because it requires you to ignore the bolded text,

Despite the desire to ignore Basic versus Advanced it would apply. There is nothing that states there has to be a specific wording or permission granted to override the core rule. It does state that "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules." The rule for an Harlequins kiss is an advanced rule and will override the core rule book. Its rule of "When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..." tells you exactly how to handle the situation, there is only confusion when you ignore parts of the Kiss's rule.

The solitaire is equipped with a kiss. When the solitaire makes its close combat attacks one will be a Kiss of Death. The rule provides no options for how the Kiss works. You are not choosing it. It happens of the basis of it being equipped, and will happen regardless of what is chosen. Per the rule, the model isn't making a kiss of death attack with the Harlequin's Kiss, but one of the model's attacks becomes a kiss of death. This will happen regardless of what the core rule book states because this is an advanced rule.

I'm swithchin' sides. That has got to be the best arguement for the Kiss. Basically a Solitaire can choose to use the Caress, but then HAS to have one if his attacks be the Kiss

Good times. So, it makes ZERO difference to you guys that the model's attacks don't have access to the Kiss of Death rule? By your own argument, and the simple fact that the rule exists at all, Codex: Eldar Harlequins armed with Harlequin's Kiss weapons get to make Kiss of Death attacks. Doesn't matter that the Kiss of Death rule isn't even in Codex: Eldar. The simple fact that the rule exists MUST mean it's applied EVERYWHERE and ALL THE TIME, regardless of whether or not the models/attacks have the rule. Understood.

Maybe you can help me then. I play Tau Empire primarily. Are there any rules in other codexes I should know about that my models have but that I'm not aware of? Per my understanding, the model doesn't actually need to have access to the rule... the rule just needs to exist.

Oh wait... here's one. Illuminor Szeras would normally have it, but since the rule doesn't specify that I need to have Illuminor Szeras in my army, it must be self permitting and as such requires me to buff a friendly unit of Warriors of Immortals. Anyone who plays Necrons can thank me for pointing this out.

"Mechanical Augmentation: At the start of the game, before forces have deployed, nominate one friendly unit of Necron Warriors or Immortals. All models in the nominated unit receive an upgrade for the duration of the game – roll a D6 and consult the following table to determine which upgrade they all have:

1-2 Hardened Carapace: The unit is Toughness 5.
3-4 Improved Optics: The unit is Ballistic Skill 5.
5-6 Enhanced Servomotors: The unit is Strength 5."

In all seriousness... who here actually thinks I can use Mechanical Augmentation without having Illuminor Szeras in my army? Special rules don't self permit. You need to gain the rule SOMEHOW. I would gain Mechanical Augmentation by taking Illuminor Szeras in my army. My Solitaire's attacks would gain Kiss of Death by using a Harlequin's Kiss in the Fight Sub-Phase. No Illuminor Szeras, no Mechanical Augmentation. No using a Harlequin's Kiss in the Fight Sub-Phase, no Kiss of Death.

 Kriswall wrote:
Good times. So, it makes ZERO difference to you guys that the model's attacks don't have access to the Kiss of Death rule? By your own argument, and the simple fact that the rule exists at all, Codex: Eldar Harlequins armed with Harlequin's Kiss weapons get to make Kiss of Death attacks. Doesn't matter that the Kiss of Death rule isn't even in Codex: Eldar. The simple fact that the rule exists MUST mean it's applied EVERYWHERE and ALL THE TIME, regardless of whether or not the models/attacks have the rule. Understood.

I call shenanigans. I never inferred, stated, or implied that Codex: Eldar Harlequins would have the Kiss of Death rule. My argument is entirely based on using the rule provided for an item to determine how it works. Codex: Eldar Harlequins have their own rules which would be used. There isn't a rule that states "The simple fact that the rule exists MUST mean it's applied EVERYWHERE and ALL THE TIME, regardless of whether or not the models/attacks have the rule" An entry for an item or unit generally provides the necessary information for how the item functions. Codex Harlequins have a different rule for vehicle holo-fields than Codex: Eldar, the different rules are not cumulative. Eldar use the rules listed in their codex, and harlequins use the rule provided in their own codex.

 Kriswall wrote:
Maybe you can help me then. I play Tau Empire primarily. Are there any rules in other codexes I should know about that my models have but that I'm not aware of? Per my understanding, the model doesn't actually need to have access to the rule... the rule just needs to exist.

Oh wait... here's one. Illuminor Szeras would normally have it, but since the rule doesn't specify that I need to have Illuminor Szeras in my army, it must be self permitting and as such requires me to buff a friendly unit of Warriors of Immortals. Anyone who plays Necrons can thank me for pointing this out.

"Mechanical Augmentation: At the start of the game, before forces have deployed, nominate one friendly unit of Necron Warriors or Immortals. All models in the nominated unit receive an upgrade for the duration of the game – roll a D6 and consult the following table to determine which upgrade they all have:

1-2 Hardened Carapace: The unit is Toughness 5.
3-4 Improved Optics: The unit is Ballistic Skill 5.
5-6 Enhanced Servomotors: The unit is Strength 5."

In all seriousness... who here actually thinks I can use Mechanical Augmentation without having Illuminor Szeras in my army? Special rules don't self permit. You need to gain the rule SOMEHOW. I would gain Mechanical Augmentation by taking Illuminor Szeras in my army. My Solitaire's attacks would gain Kiss of Death by using a Harlequin's Kiss in the Fight Sub-Phase. No Illuminor Szeras, no Mechanical Augmentation. No using a Harlequin's Kiss in the Fight Sub-Phase, no Kiss of Death.

If you have questions about how the Eldar. Necron, or Tau codexes work I would recommend starting a separate thread. This one is related to the Harlequin's Kiss listed in Codex Harlequin.

Trystis wrote:
"When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..." The solitaire is equipped with a kiss. When the solitaire makes its close combat attacks one will be a Kiss of Death. The rule provides no options for how the Kiss works. You are not choosing it. It happens of the basis of it being equipped, and will happen regardless of what is chosen. Per the rule, the model isn't making a kiss of death attack with the Harlequin's Kiss, but one of the model's attacks becomes a kiss of death. This will happen regardless of what the core rule book states because this is an advanced rule.

None of your post disproved this as the proper way to interpret the rule, and generally seemed to be designed to distract from my point rather than counter it.

Trystis wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Good times. So, it makes ZERO difference to you guys that the model's attacks don't have access to the Kiss of Death rule? By your own argument, and the simple fact that the rule exists at all, Codex: Eldar Harlequins armed with Harlequin's Kiss weapons get to make Kiss of Death attacks. Doesn't matter that the Kiss of Death rule isn't even in Codex: Eldar. The simple fact that the rule exists MUST mean it's applied EVERYWHERE and ALL THE TIME, regardless of whether or not the models/attacks have the rule. Understood.

I call shenanigans. I never inferred, stated, or implied that Codex: Eldar Harlequins would have the Kiss of Death rule. My argument is entirely based on using the rule provided for an item to determine how it works. Codex: Eldar Harlequins have their own rules which would be used. There isn't a rule that states "The simple fact that the rule exists MUST mean it's applied EVERYWHERE and ALL THE TIME, regardless of whether or not the models/attacks have the rule" An entry for an item or unit generally provides the necessary information for how the item functions. Codex Harlequins have a different rule for vehicle holo-fields than Codex: Eldar, the different rules are not cumulative. Eldar use the rules listed in their codex, and harlequins use the rule provided in their own codex.

 Kriswall wrote:
Maybe you can help me then. I play Tau Empire primarily. Are there any rules in other codexes I should know about that my models have but that I'm not aware of? Per my understanding, the model doesn't actually need to have access to the rule... the rule just needs to exist.

Oh wait... here's one. Illuminor Szeras would normally have it, but since the rule doesn't specify that I need to have Illuminor Szeras in my army, it must be self permitting and as such requires me to buff a friendly unit of Warriors of Immortals. Anyone who plays Necrons can thank me for pointing this out.

"Mechanical Augmentation: At the start of the game, before forces have deployed, nominate one friendly unit of Necron Warriors or Immortals. All models in the nominated unit receive an upgrade for the duration of the game – roll a D6 and consult the following table to determine which upgrade they all have:

1-2 Hardened Carapace: The unit is Toughness 5.
3-4 Improved Optics: The unit is Ballistic Skill 5.
5-6 Enhanced Servomotors: The unit is Strength 5."

In all seriousness... who here actually thinks I can use Mechanical Augmentation without having Illuminor Szeras in my army? Special rules don't self permit. You need to gain the rule SOMEHOW. I would gain Mechanical Augmentation by taking Illuminor Szeras in my army. My Solitaire's attacks would gain Kiss of Death by using a Harlequin's Kiss in the Fight Sub-Phase. No Illuminor Szeras, no Mechanical Augmentation. No using a Harlequin's Kiss in the Fight Sub-Phase, no Kiss of Death.

If you have questions about how the Eldar. Necron, or Tau codexes work I would recommend starting a separate thread. This one is related to the Harlequin's Kiss listed in Codex Harlequin.

Trystis wrote:
"When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..." The solitaire is equipped with a kiss. When the solitaire makes its close combat attacks one will be a Kiss of Death. The rule provides no options for how the Kiss works. You are not choosing it. It happens of the basis of it being equipped, and will happen regardless of what is chosen. Per the rule, the model isn't making a kiss of death attack with the Harlequin's Kiss, but one of the model's attacks becomes a kiss of death. This will happen regardless of what the core rule book states because this is an advanced rule.

None of your post disproved this as the proper way to interpret the rule, and generally seemed to be designed to distract from my point rather than counter it.

OK then... presumably the model or its attacks need to have the Kiss of Death rule for it to function, correct? Codex: Eldar Harlequins definitely can't benefit from the rule since they can never have gained it, what with it not even being in the Codex.

How, EXACTLY, in your mind, does the Solitaire OR his attacks gain the Kiss of Death special rule during a Fight Sub-Phase in which the Solitaire has chosen to attack with a Harlequin's Caress? Keep in mind that you can't read and implement the Kiss of Death special rule until you've demonstrated that the Solitaire or his attacks have gained the rule somehow. What is telling you to even read and resolve the Kiss of Death rule when you aren't attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss? This question has yet to be answered. The answer CANNOT be in the text of the Kiss of Death rule itself. You can't answer the question "Why does the model have Kiss of Death?" with "Because the model has Kiss of Death.".

Here... I'll start...

1. Why does a Solitaire have the Deep Strike special rule? Because it is listed on his army unit entry under special rules and the rules tell me a model can gain special rules from an army unit entry.
2. Why, during a Fight Sub-Phase and when attacking with a Harlequin's Caress, does a Solitaire's attacks have the Caress of Death special rule? Because the core rules tell me the Solitaire's attacks can gain special rules from a weapon he is using in combat.
3. Why, during a Fight Sub-Phase and when attacking with a Harlequin's Caress, does a Solitaire's attacks have the Kiss of Death special rule? ???

You need to answer that last question. Remember, you haven't yet shown that you even have the rule, so I don't care about when and where you'd make a "Kiss of Death attack". I'm first trying to establish why you think the Solitaire's attacks have the special rule when he's not using the weapon in combat. We aren't debating how the rule works. This thread, at its core, is about whether or not the attacks of a model who ISN'T attacking with a specific weapon gains special rules from that weapon in combat.

Example... A Space Marine Captain, armed with Lightning Claw and Power Fist, makes an attack. He chooses to attack with the Power Fist. I don't need to read Shred and determine whether or not it applies because the Captain's attacks NEVER GAINED the Shred special rule. The text of the rule is IRRELEVANT as the attacks don't have the rule. He didn't use the Lightning Claw in combat and so his attacks don't gain the rule.

This is key.

It does not matter what special rules a weapon has. It matters what special rules a model's attacks have.

You need to demonstrate that the Solitaire's attacks have the Kiss of Death special rule. We all know the Harlequin's Kiss does. It's right there in the profile. BUT, until you demonstrate that the attacks gain the special rule, you can't read and resolve it.

"When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes ITS close combat attacks, one of its attacks WILL BE a Kiss of Death attack..."

That doesn't say, "When a model attacks WITH the Kiss"
----------------------------
There are 2 ways to interpret this rule:
Either:
A model with the Kiss HAS to use it, there is no choice, you WILL use the Kiss. Meaning the 2 weapon rule would always prevent a Solitare from using the Caress (so why bother having it?)

OR:
The Kiss rule overrides the BRB, by allowing its rules to be used just by being equipped.

Since those on either side of this debate will not concede to the other, clearly there can be no consensus and you will have to discuss this with each of your opponents and any TOs

To your points.

1. Why does a Solitaire have the Deep Strike special rule? Because it is listed on his army unit entry under special rules and the rules tell me a model can gain special rules from an army unit entry.
2. Why, during a Fight Sub-Phase and when attacking with a Harlequin's Caress, does a Solitaire's attacks have the Caress of Death special rule? Because the core rules tell me the Solitaire's attacks can gain special rules from a weapon he is using in combat.
3. Why, during a Fight Sub-Phase and when attacking with a Harlequin's Caress, does a Solitaire's attacks have the Kiss of Death special rule? ???

1. The solitaire doesn't have the Kiss of Death rule. Thats actually not relevant.

2 and 3. When you have two weapons you must choose, this part still is true. In the case of Cegorach's rose you could either chose to use it and gain its additional benefits, or the Caress and gain its benefit. You wouldn't be able to claim all of the special rules of both.

The kiss of death is different though, because its rule requires a different method of action. You can't ignore its wording just because it doesn't fit comfortably in the core rule book. In this case core rules do not apply because the Harlequin's kiss has an advanced rule that states how it works. "When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..." In this case it converts one of the solitaire's attacks to a kiss of death based of the necessary function of being "equipped". This happens regardless of the weapon that the solitaire chose to use. This is RAW.

It does not matter what special rules a weapon has. It matters what special rules a model's attacks have.
You need to demonstrate that the Solitaire's attacks have the Kiss of Death special rule. We all know the Harlequin's Kiss does. It's right there in the profile. BUT, until you demonstrate that the attacks gain the special rule, you can't read and resolve it.

The demonstration of how the solitaire's attacks have a kiss of death rule is provided by the wording of the rule it self:
"When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss (like solitaire is) makes its close combat attacks (when the solitaire makes its close combat attack), one of its (the solitaire's) attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..."
I.E. When a solitaire (harlequin's kiss equipped standard) makes its attack one of them will be a kiss of death attack.

Trystis wrote:
To your points.

1. Why does a Solitaire have the Deep Strike special rule? Because it is listed on his army unit entry under special rules and the rules tell me a model can gain special rules from an army unit entry.
2. Why, during a Fight Sub-Phase and when attacking with a Harlequin's Caress, does a Solitaire's attacks have the Caress of Death special rule? Because the core rules tell me the Solitaire's attacks can gain special rules from a weapon he is using in combat.
3. Why, during a Fight Sub-Phase and when attacking with a Harlequin's Caress, does a Solitaire's attacks have the Kiss of Death special rule? ???

1. The solitaire doesn't have the Kiss of Death rule. Thats actually not relevant.

2 and 3. When you have two weapons you must choose, this part still is true. In the case of Cegorach's rose you could either chose to use it and gain its additional benefits, or the Caress and gain its benefit. You wouldn't be able to claim all of the special rules of both.

The kiss of death is different though, because its rule requires a different method of action. You can't ignore its wording just because it doesn't fit comfortably in the core rule book. In this case core rules do not apply because the Harlequin's kiss has an advanced rule that states how it works. "When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..." In this case it converts one of the solitaire's attacks to a kiss of death based of the necessary function of being "equipped". This happens regardless of the weapon that the solitaire chose to use. This is RAW.

It does not matter what special rules a weapon has. It matters what special rules a model's attacks have.
You need to demonstrate that the Solitaire's attacks have the Kiss of Death special rule. We all know the Harlequin's Kiss does. It's right there in the profile. BUT, until you demonstrate that the attacks gain the special rule, you can't read and resolve it.

The demonstration of how the solitaire's attacks have a kiss of death rule is provided by the wording of the rule it self:
"When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss (like solitaire is) makes its close combat attacks (when the solitaire makes its close combat attack), one of its (the solitaire's) attacks will be a Kiss of Death attack..."
I.E. When a solitaire (harlequin's kiss equipped standard) makes its attack one of them will be a kiss of death attack.

No, no, no. You're fixated on what the rule DOES. I'm questioning why you think you have the rule in the first place. Like... you wouldn't have a Space Marine Captain make a Kiss of Death attack. You'd never even bother to see if he's equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss because his attacks never gain the Kiss of Death special rule. At what point does the Solitaire's attacks gain the Kiss of Death special rule?

The Solitaire gains the kiss of death rule once he is equipped with the kiss of death.Because thats all the rule says is needed.

Like a sword that gives fearless, gives fearless as soon as you purchase the sword.

The reason its not in his profile is because he cannot make that S6AP2 attack if he doesn't have the Harlequins kiss. The rule is clearly stating that the model that has the kiss may utilize this one special attack when attacking. This doesn't specify that you must use the Harlies Kiss.

Honestly, all throughout 7'th GW has been very clear with their rules, and rules that allow special circumstances(such as the kiss). They need to errata it so people will stop crying that it exists.

No, no, no. You're fixated on what the rule DOES. I'm questioning why you think you have the rule in the first place. Like... you wouldn't have a Space Marine Captain make a Kiss of Death attack. You'd never even bother to see if he's equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss because his attacks never gain the Kiss of Death special rule. At what point does the Solitaire's attacks gain the Kiss of Death special rule?

I haven't discussed what the rule does at all. Not even a little. The Kiss of Death "does" make an attack instant death on the roll of a 6 to wound.

The solitaire never has the Kiss of Death rule as I have repeatedly indicated. One of his attacks becomes a Kiss of Death attack. There is no need for me to see if he is equipped with it. That isn't a required step, or even a step that exists. Why would a Space Marine Captain be able to make a Kiss of Death attack? Is he equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss from the Codex: Harlequin? Does it say any where on his information that he has one? Did you purchase one for him somehow? No, then one of his attack would not be converted to a Kiss of Death as the rule requires a Harlequin's Kiss to be equipped. Is the solitaire equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss from the Codex: Harlequin? It's listed under wargear with the rest of his equipment. Then one of his attacks will be a Kiss of Death when he is close combat automatically, per the rule for that item.

The attempts to interpret this differently all have required that you ignore some aspect of an advanced rule in order to dogmatically apply a basic rule.