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 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Wraithflight:

When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. However, they cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the models on top of it.

The initiative step of the Wraith has nothing to do with its movement (in the Move phase, or the Charge sub-phase).
Has the Wraith moved through difficult terrain? If yes, then it's at I1.
You can't declare that the terrain does not exist, because it clearly does, right there on the table. Even if the Wraiths move "as if" it was open ground, it's still difficult. And if a model moved through difficult terrain (which the Wraith did), then it goes at I1.

No one is suggesting that the terrain does not exist, but the specific rules for wraithflight defines that all terrain is to be treated as if it was open ground. As such, if the model moves, it is always moving over open ground as directed by the special rule. As such, regardless of what the terrain is, the model did not move through difficult terrain - wraithflight overrides the original terrain rules - and the model does not suffer the initiative penalty.

Question for those who argue that wraiths don't take the initiative hit...

If terrain and models are open ground instead of what they are, I should be able to be within 1 inch of an enemy model at the end of any movement phase. Within 1 inch, would not be on top of the enemy model.

Agree, or is this a violation of a fundamental rule of the game a stretch?

 ah64pilot5 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
You know if they just the goddamn wording

"Ignore all penalties of difficult and dangerous terrain" this would be so much simpler...

That might be one way to do it, but honestly, I think it is just a matter of people not being able to believe or conceive that any unit could have an ability like this. For once, the RAW is quite clear, but many people seem to not believe that it could actually be this simple.

because it would make them too OP, and its really not in GW habits since the last 6 codexes that where nerfed into the ground into oblivion?

Every unit/combo that where deemed too strong for their purpose or cost/effeciency ratio when switching from their old dex into a 7Th Ed dex was nerfed at worst or at best "rebalanced", even if they are still usefull.

And here all of a sudden not only they are 3++, they have rending as a basic rule, +1T and their wips now counts as 2 CCW for a slight point increase AND they should not be hindered by the rule that ALL other models in the game can't ignore no matter what excepte if explicitly said so, and you expect people not to argue about it, that there is something afoot?

Until there is a FaQ, there will be arguments about this, now you each do as you want in your Metas anyway, since you have no obligations to anyone here.

i know that all the Necrons players in my area that discussed the matter( and don't come and say they don't know how to play their armies, 6 of them are in the top tourney players over here), and they all agreed that no you arn't immune to th Init penalty, that the wording might be different but the effect and end result is the same( also in french the wording is not that different, but then again you can't avoid a translation issue either...).

So i'm more enclined to believe my friends personnaly, now if its FaQ that way in the futur, then it will be undiscutable.

Im back, just to ask an opinion based on this rule.

Could the wraith charge a unit through a wall. Not a ruin, not anything that has windows but a solid brick wall. Not fluff wise, nothing like that. By this rule you should be able to do that right?


Doesn't that seem a little fething stupid to you too?

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Question for those who argue that wraiths don't take the initiative hit...

If terrain and models are open ground instead of what they are, I should be able to be within 1 inch of an enemy model at the end of any movement phase. Within 1 inch, would not be on top of the enemy model.

Agree, or is this a violation of a fundamental rule of the game a stretch?

Obviously it is a violation. Nothing allows wraiths to end within an inch och enemy models unless charging. The models do not cease to be models because they are treated as Open Ground. Neither does difficult terrain stop being just that.

The thing is that wraiths never count as having moved on difficult terrain. They count as having moved on Open Ground which triggers no charge penalties at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 ah64pilot5 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
You know if they just the goddamn wording

"Ignore all penalties of difficult and dangerous terrain" this would be so much simpler...

That might be one way to do it, but honestly, I think it is just a matter of people not being able to believe or conceive that any unit could have an ability like this. For once, the RAW is quite clear, but many people seem to not believe that it could actually be this simple.

because it would make them too OP, and its really not in GW habits since the last 6 codexes that where nerfed into the ground into oblivion?

Every unit/combo that where deemed too strong for their purpose or cost/effeciency ratio when switching from their old dex into a 7Th Ed dex was nerfed at worst or at best "rebalanced", even if they are still usefull.

And here all of a sudden not only they are 3++, they have rending as a basic rule, +1T and their wips now counts as 2 CCW for a slight point increase AND they should not be hindered by the rule that ALL other models in the game can't ignore no matter what excepte if explicitly said so, and you expect people not to argue about it, that there is something afoot?

Until there is a FaQ, there will be arguments about this, now you each do as you want in your Metas anyway, since you have no obligations to anyone here.

i know that all the Necrons players in my area that discussed the matter( and don't come and say they don't know how to play their armies, 6 of them are in the top tourney players over here), and they all agreed that no you arn't immune to th Init penalty, that the wording might be different but the effect and end result is the same( also in french the wording is not that different, but then again you can't avoid a translation issue either...).

So i'm more enclined to believe my friends personnaly, now if its FaQ that way in the futur, then it will be undiscutable.

You are correct in that every meta may decide on its own accord. However, that does not belong in YMDC, and so far this thread points to the opposite of what you've decided. Instead of talking about how wraiths are op (they are), try to provide something to counter the standing theory with.

EDIT - Whip Coils only count as a single CCW btw, so wraiths do not get an extra attack.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:
Im back, just to ask an opinion based on this rule.

Could the wraith charge a unit through a wall. Not a ruin, not anything that has windows but a solid brick wall. Not fluff wise, nothing like that. By this rule you should be able to do that right?


Doesn't that seem a little fething stupid to you too?

You require line of sight in order to charge a target. But as long as one wraith can see the target, the rest of the unit can pass through anything to get there.

TompiQ wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Question for those who argue that wraiths don't take the initiative hit...

If terrain and models are open ground instead of what they are, I should be able to be within 1 inch of an enemy model at the end of any movement phase. Within 1 inch, would not be on top of the enemy model.

Agree, or is this a violation of a fundamental rule of the game a stretch?

Obviously it is a violation. Nothing allows wraiths to end within an inch och enemy models unless charging. The models do not cease to be models because they are treated as Open Ground. Neither does difficult terrain stop being just that.

The thing is that wraiths never count as having moved on difficult terrain. They count as having moved on Open Ground which triggers no charge penalties at all.

One follows the other. If you treat difficult terrain as open ground because it isn't really there due to Wraithflight, then the enemy models are open ground as well... and thus not really there. The text tells you to treat them the same. If one doesn't exist to the wraiths during movement, then the other doesn't exist to the wraiths during movement. Once movement ends, however you've created an invalid situation in the rules. That should probably inform you as to the validity of your assumptions.

Anpu-adom wrote:Question for those who argue that wraiths don't take the initiative hit...

If terrain and models are open ground instead of what they are, I should be able to be within 1 inch of an enemy model at the end of any movement phase. Within 1 inch, would not be on top of the enemy model.

Agree, or is this a violation of a fundamental rule of the game a stretch?

They only treat models as Open Terrain as they move over them. Once they've moved over them they treat them as normal, so they can't be within 1" of them when they end their movement, unless they stop on top of them which is disallowed by Wraithflight.

Before you go "oh, so then once they're done moving over DT when charging they'd suffer the Initiative penalty" they wouldn't as when they themselves never moved through DT, only Open Ground. It doesn't matter that after they've moved over they treat as as DT as they aren't moving through it then and can't be penalised because of it.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:Im back, just to ask an opinion based on this rule.

Could the wraith charge a unit through a wall. Not a ruin, not anything that has windows but a solid brick wall. Not fluff wise, nothing like that. By this rule you should be able to do that right?


Doesn't that seem a little fething stupid to you too?

Not in the slightest as they have a rule that allows them to.
While you don't want the fluff-wise explanation for it, you have to realise that the rule exists because of the fluff; Wraiths just phase through it as if it isn't there. If, in the fluff, wraiths couldn't phase through walls and the like, I'd think it would be stupid for them to have such a rule, but not stupid to allow them to do so because they have the rule.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:Question for those who argue that wraiths don't take the initiative hit...

If terrain and models are open ground instead of what they are, I should be able to be within 1 inch of an enemy model at the end of any movement phase. Within 1 inch, would not be on top of the enemy model.

Agree, or is this a violation of a fundamental rule of the game a stretch?

They only treat models as Open Terrain as they move over them. Once they've moved over them they treat them as normal, so they can't be within 1" of them when they end their movement, unless they stop on top of them which is disallowed by Wraithflight.

Before you go "oh, so then once they're done moving over DT when charging they'd suffer the Initiative penalty" they wouldn't as when they themselves never moved through DT, only Open Ground. It doesn't matter that after they've moved over they treat as as DT as they aren't moving through it then and can't be penalised because of it.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:Im back, just to ask an opinion based on this rule.

Could the wraith charge a unit through a wall. Not a ruin, not anything that has windows but a solid brick wall. Not fluff wise, nothing like that. By this rule you should be able to do that right?


Doesn't that seem a little fething stupid to you too?

Not in the slightest as they have a rule that allows them to.
While you don't want the fluff-wise explanation for it, you have to realise that the rule exists because of the fluff; Wraiths just phase through it as if it isn't there. If, in the fluff, wraiths couldn't phase through walls and the like, I'd think it would be stupid for them to have such a rule, but not stupid to allow them to do so because they have the rule.

First, on the charging through the wall... you have permission to move through the terrain as if it was open... yes. But you do not have permission to charge as you would not have line of sight to the enemy unit. That was what Kavik as getting at.

Secondly, I have showed that the interpretation of Wraithflight is invalid if it is based on the idea that 'difficult terrain and models' disappear as that interpretation leads to situations that break the game. I have also showed early in this thread that every instance in which a unit is allowed to ignore the initiative penalty it has been specifically allowed to by language that refers to the initiative penalty.

Increasingly strange to me, I'm now a long time Necron player... I started before the 5th edition book came out. I've lovingly converted 15 wraiths from bitz and greenstuff. I'm so incredibly excited by what can only be seen as a huge buff to the unit. However, these are the same arguments that were made when that 5th edition book came out. If GW had intended that we be able to ignore the initiative penalty, I firmly believe that they would have told us that. Just this week, we will see a codex with that exact same intention... the leaked Solitaire rules from the Harlequin Supplement. We are now getting rules by committee... so the person who did Harlequins worked on the Necrons. Why then does this book not include the words, "this ability allows you to ignore the initiative penalty for charging units inside difficult terrain..."? It can only be because it wasn't intended to ignore that rule.

43 points (with a required upgrade) is already very cheap for what we are getting with Wraiths... to add the ability to ignore that initiative penalty... well, it would be broken.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Secondly, I have showed that the interpretation of Wraithflight is invalid if it is based on the idea that 'difficult terrain and models' disappear as that interpretation leads to situations that break the game.

That in no way invalidates that interpretation of Wraithflight as GW is quite good at writing rules that break the game when taken as is. The Psychic phase and what constitutes a 'Psyker unit' are prime examples.

Yes, of course Wraiths can't charge a target they can't see. I probably should of said "yes, if they can see the unit" but the point is, they could charge through the wall (if they could see the unit).

The models and terrain don't 'disappear', the wraiths just treat them as Open Ground. Where have you shown that our interpretation is invalid? Besides comparing them with Flip Belts and asking if we believe we can end within 1" of an enemy model (which I've shown we can't without making our interpretation wrong and invalid), you haven't really shown anything, let alone something that breaks the game (well, besides the fact that Wraiths are brokenly overpowered, but that isn't breaking any rules).

The 5th Ed rule was worded differently and gave a different, if similar) effect (the same effect the Flip Belt gives sans needed permission to allow them to ignore the I penalty and the 2+ LOS! roll). The rules for charging through DT state that even if a unit is not slowed by DT (what the 5th Ed rule said) they still suffer the I penalty, which is why Wraiths were penalised.

GW writing 2 rules with a similar (yet still different effect, 'quins can't move over models) effects in a different way shouldn't be surprising. Even though codexes are now a committee affair, two different people could have written both rules and everyone else just looked on and helped with balancing, or wrote an entirely different part of the rules for the army.

I'm not saying allowing Wraiths to ignore the I penalty isn't brokenly powerful (it is) but RAW, they can. Hence why I won't be fielding Wraiths unless I'm in a tournament (unlikely).

 Anpu-adom wrote:


First, on the charging through the wall... you have permission to move through the terrain as if it was open... yes. But you do not have permission to charge as you would not have line of sight to the enemy unit. That was what Kavik as getting at.

Secondly, I have showed that the interpretation of Wraithflight is invalid if it is based on the idea that 'difficult terrain and models' disappear as that interpretation leads to situations that break the game. I have also showed early in this thread that every instance in which a unit is allowed to ignore the initiative penalty it has been specifically allowed to by language that refers to the initiative penalty.

Increasingly strange to me, I'm now a long time Necron player... I started before the 5th edition book came out. I've lovingly converted 15 wraiths from bitz and greenstuff. I'm so incredibly excited by what can only be seen as a huge buff to the unit. However, these are the same arguments that were made when that 5th edition book came out. If GW had intended that we be able to ignore the initiative penalty, I firmly believe that they would have told us that. Just this week, we will see a codex with that exact same intention... the leaked Solitaire rules from the Harlequin Supplement. We are now getting rules by committee... so the person who did Harlequins worked on the Necrons. Why then does this book not include the words, "this ability allows you to ignore the initiative penalty for charging units inside difficult terrain..."? It can only be because it wasn't intended to ignore that rule.

43 points (with a required upgrade) is already very cheap for what we are getting with Wraiths... to add the ability to ignore that initiative penalty... well, it would be broken.

However, not being able to charge through a wall due to lack of line of sight has nothing to do with this topic, so let us drop it.

The interpretation is not that anything disappears. It is that they are treated as Open Ground when moving. As Matt.Kingsley pointed out, you're not allowed to remain within 1" as youstop moving, so nothing breaks the game there. And what other rules says on the same topic has no relevance on Wraithflight. Plenty of proof has been provided as to why it works as we say it does, and yet no counter-argument as been able to tear down that proof. I've played Necrons since third ed and still have my metal proper wraiths. The wording now versus 5th is different, the surrounding rules are different and we are left with a scenario which does not work the way you say it does. You still haven't proven that there's anything wrong with "Wraithflight allows wraiths to move as if on open ground at all times, hence they do not trigger any penalties by moving into difficult terrain as it is not treated as such for the purpose of their movement".

You have also ignored that which has been stated earlier in the thread - the Flip Belt does not do anything close to what Wraithflight does. It only allows you to move at full speed in difficult terrain and ignore the initiative penalty. You are still treated as having moved through difficult terrain for all rules purposes, bar the explicit exceptions stated. Wraiths aren't even treated as having moved through difficult terrain, so they do not need a specific mention of the initiative penalty to begin with - they never trigger it, and as such will never suffer from it and have to ignore it.

Wraiths are cheap, and strong. It is truly odd that GW kept them at their current power level and even boosted it. But that doesn't have any bearing at all on this rules discussion. As it stands, wraithflight allows wraiths to strike at full initiative when charging into difficult terrain, thanks to not counting as having charged into difficult terrain but rather over open ground.

 ah64pilot5 wrote:
Wraithflight:

When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. However, they cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the models on top of it.

No one is suggesting that the terrain does not exist, but the specific rules for wraithflight defines that all terrain is to be treated as if it was open ground.

The underlined language isn't actually in the rules. Can we prove that "as if" is identical in meaning to "treated as" in the Necron Codex?

Yes. This is hilarious, yet so AWESOME. That Ctans and Wraith have assault Grenades without having them.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 ah64pilot5 wrote:
Wraithflight:

When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. However, they cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the models on top of it.

No one is suggesting that the terrain does not exist, but the specific rules for wraithflight defines that all terrain is to be treated as if it was open ground.

The underlined language isn't actually in the rules. Can we prove that "as if" is identical in meaning to "treated as" in the Necron Codex?

Currently it looks like it's a replacement. "As if" would mean the you replace the interactions with the stated one, so you would apply the rules "as if" the Wraith moved over Open Ground when it moves over any terrain or models.

Ooh, I just realised something with Wraithflight: RAW you can't move over enemy models as there it doesn't give you permission to ignore the "may not move within 1" of enemy models" rule.

We have 2 terrain types, T1 (open ground) and T2 (difficult terrain)

These terrain types have rules. T1 does not apply any penalties, T2 applies 2 penalties to simulate units being delayed when charging through it, lets call them P1 and P2.

Then the rules for T2 also has a clarification that says when a special rule states that a model is not "slowed" by T2, this refers to ignoring P1, but not P2. This is probably because lower initiative also means that you are slower, but slowed by refers only to moving distance.

Then we have the special rules.
*One special rules says "is not slowed by", in other words, it tells us to ignore P1. (5th edition wraithflight used this rule)

*Another special rule says ignore P1 and P2 (Harlequin)

*A third special rule says that instead of applying rules for T2 (or other terrains) we apply rules for T1. (wraithflight 7th ed) This also means you do not apply the rules for T2 at all, meaning you ignore both P1 and P2. It does not use the terminology "slowed by" and does not only refer to P1. It refers to P1, P2 and all other rules that are applied to T2. So no penalties whatsoever.

I am surprised how people can fail to see this logic. Have you never played board games? To me this is how rules normally work. GW are not consequent in their wording, but the logic is still the same as in other games...

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Ooh, I just realised something with Wraithflight: RAW you can't move over enemy models as there it doesn't give you permission to ignore the "may not move within 1" of enemy models" rule.

That is not how that rule works. You can not place your model closer to 1" to an enemy, and you must move around other models. But the wraith flight rule says you can move over them instead, so you can. You can still not place them on top of them, and not within 1" unless you are charging (because as you say, there is a rule that prevents that which the wraithflight rule does not override)

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
because it would make them too OP, and its really not in GW habits since the last 6 codexes that where nerfed into the ground into oblivion?

Oh yes, imagine the horror if a unit ignored that penalty.
They even have Fearless, which means they ignore Fear.

Ridiculously overpowered.
Luckily we don't have Factions where EVERY unit has those things.. /sarcasm

What I need is the exact wording of the rule, as I have seen a couple versions typed here that people are saying is the rule.

So far, as I have read it, People are saying that "treat as" open ground means it is open ground. Yes?

Using this as a basis, "Treat as" saved means FnP is a save and thus cannot be used against attacks that don't allow saves of any kind. Which we now is not the case.

So, we know that "treat as" something does not make it something, and since the Wraith Flight rule does not remove the penalty for initiative, they strike at I1.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
What I need is the exact wording of the rule, as I have seen a couple versions typed here that people are saying is the rule.

So far, as I have read it, People are saying that "treat as" open ground means it is open ground. Yes?

Using this as a basis, "Treat as" saved means FnP is a save and thus cannot be used against attacks that don't allow saves of any kind. Which we now is not the case.

So, we know that "treat as" something does not make it something, and since the Wraith Flight rule does not remove the penalty for initiative, they strike at I1.

This is the wording:
"When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. However they can not end their move on top of other models and they can only end their move on impassable terrain if it is possible to place the models on top of it"

Also, in the case of FNP, that is a question of sequencing. The FNP triggers by an unsaved wound. After you have rolled it, and the roll pass, you then treat it as if it was saved from there. You can't take back the roll, the FNP roll just makes the wound into a state that it couldn't have been if FNP didn't exist.

In the case with wraith flight, when moving the terrain is "as open ground", which means it follows the rules for open ground. Also please see my post above, because the wording for when you can't ignore initiative is also important.
It does NOT say "models that ignore difficult terrain still strike at ini 1", it says "models that are not slowed by difficult terrain still strike at ini 1". And slowed by is a specific wording that is commonly used in special rules, but not in the wraithflight rule. The wraithflight rules means you don't apply the rules at all regarding difficult terrain. You instead apply the rules as if it was open ground.

FNP would be a save if it wasn't for the pesky rule clarifying that it's not a save.
Therefore "treat as", as far as the 40k rules are concerned, means "is". So Wraiths didn't move over difficult terrain, they moved over Open Ground.

I'm missing the confusion. It mentions moving, that's movement phase. Says nothing about "when charging" or "when assaulting". Or if it does, then we need that quote.

So when moving, ignore DT

When charging, don't. How'd this go 4 pages?

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm missing the confusion. It mentions moving, that's movement phase. Says nothing about "when charging" or "when assaulting". Or if it does, then we need that quote.

So when moving, ignore DT

When charging, don't. How'd this go 4 pages?

Perhaps if you actually bothered to read the first page you'd know.

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm missing the confusion. It mentions moving, that's movement phase. Says nothing about "when charging" or "when assaulting". Or if it does, then we need that quote.

So when moving, ignore DT

When charging, don't. How'd this go 4 pages?

Because you move when you charge? And charge moves follow the movement rules (with specific exceptions)?
I dunno, just a thought. If you'd bother to read the thread you'd have seen that though.

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm missing the confusion. It mentions moving, that's movement phase. Says nothing about "when charging" or "when assaulting". Or if it does, then we need that quote.

So when moving, ignore DT

When charging, don't. How'd this go 4 pages?

We´ve been through this too.

It doesn't say "when moving in the movement phase". It says when moving. There is something called Charge move. That is when you move your models into base contact with the enemy unit. It even states that you move using the same rules as in the movement phase, with the exception that you may end your move within 1" of an enemy. Running is also moving. All of these are words and expressions actually used in the rulebook. There is a post in this thread with the actual quotes, look it up.

The actual rule says "as if". Moving is not charging. They are charging through difficult terrain. I'd understand an argument that they don't take the -2 (I disagree, but I can see the logic), but to claim that a move SR somehow ignores the Init 1 set modifier is such a wishful stretch as I'd probably laugh out loud at a tournament if someone told me that moving "as if" it was open terrain ignored a set modifier (who's conditions had been met) for having actually gone through DT or if they tried to apply modifiers in complete ignorance of the order of operations in 40k or the very specific Charging Through Terrain rules.

It clearly states that this only comes into play while moving, not figuring initiative or anything else. Again, only the actual movement is "as if" open terrain. There's no permission for anything else.

People are saying that terrain has changed to open ground or that you treat it as open terrain. Neither is true. For moving its just your moves. That's all it says, oddly enough that's all the RAW means.

 Lobukia wrote:
The actual rule says "as if".

Yes, and?

Moving is not charging.

It's not?

What rules do Wraiths use in the movement phase?

They are charging through difficult terrain. I'd understand an argument that they don't take the -2 (I disagree, but I can see the logic), but to claim that a move SR somehow ignores the Init 1 set modifier is such a wishful stretch as I'd probably laugh out loud at a tournament if someone told me that moving "as if" it was open terrain ignored a set modifier (who's conditions had been met) for having actually gone through DT or if they tried to apply modifiers in complete ignorance of the order of operations in 40k or the very specific Charging Through Terrain rules.

Go ahead and laugh out loud. The actual rules that exist would make the TO side with them and you be incorrect.

It clearly states that this only comes into play while moving, not figuring initiative or anything else. Again, only the actual movement is "as if" open terrain. There's no permission for anything else.

People are saying that terrain has changed to open ground or that you treat it as open terrain. Neither is true. For moving its just your moves. That's all it says, oddly enough that's all the RAW means.

If they moved through Open Terrain, did they move through difficult terrain?

If they moved through Open Terrain, did they move through difficult terrain?

They did move through difficult terrain. Just their movement happened as if it was open. That's terrain's still there, and when checking initiative, yes, they did charge through difficult terrain. This is now about the path of the models not about a special rule effecting how they moved through the terrain on that path.

"As if" doesn't change what "is"

 Lobukia wrote:
Moving is not charging.

Aah great, I was waiting for this.
The entire Charge Move-sequence has 21 times the word move, moved or movement.

Are you really going to tell me that charging is not a move or should I quote each of those 21 lines?
Because I would have to ask a mod if I am allowed to quote that many BRB-lines.

 Lobukia wrote:

If they moved through Open Terrain, did they move through difficult terrain?

They did move through difficult terrain. Just their movement happened as if it was open. That's terrain's still there, and when checking initiative, yes, they did charge through difficult terrain. This is now about the path of the models not about a special rule effecting how they moved through the terrain on that path.

"As if" doesn't change what "is"

Then please tell me what the use of 'treat as if' is.
What is the use of the entire Wraithflight-rule?

Its funny how people cannot seem to believe that wraiths could actually be played this way, while the harlies clearly can. With the way both units rules are written, they can both assault with no penalty to their initiative due to their individual, different special rules.
For everyone who is up in arms that the wraths are going to be soooo deadly now, the harlies get more attacks, with higher initiative and the same or better special rules for their attacks, on a waayyyy lesser points per model basis.

jay_mo wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
What I need is the exact wording of the rule, as I have seen a couple versions typed here that people are saying is the rule.

So far, as I have read it, People are saying that "treat as" open ground means it is open ground. Yes?

Using this as a basis, "Treat as" saved means FnP is a save and thus cannot be used against attacks that don't allow saves of any kind. Which we now is not the case.

So, we know that "treat as" something does not make it something, and since the Wraith Flight rule does not remove the penalty for initiative, they strike at I1.

This is the wording:
"When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. However they can not end their move on top of other models and they can only end their move on impassable terrain if it is possible to place the models on top of it"

Also, in the case of FNP, that is a question of sequencing. The FNP triggers by an unsaved wound. After you have rolled it, and the roll pass, you then treat it as if it was saved from there. You can't take back the roll, the FNP roll just makes the wound into a state that it couldn't have been if FNP didn't exist.

In the case with wraith flight, when moving the terrain is "as open ground", which means it follows the rules for open ground. Also please see my post above, because the wording for when you can't ignore initiative is also important.
It does NOT say "models that ignore difficult terrain still strike at ini 1", it says "models that are not slowed by difficult terrain still strike at ini 1". And slowed by is a specific wording that is commonly used in special rules, but not in the wraithflight rule. The wraithflight rules means you don't apply the rules at all regarding difficult terrain. You instead apply the rules as if it was open ground.

Thank you. That helps.

I am left to concede the point that Wraithflight does ignore the initiative penalty, as that line of reasoning is the same as my premise for other special rules activating on an unsaved wound and FnP not being able to stop them(at least in my turn as the active player chooses the order in which rules resolve) thank you.