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I do admit that the Necron codex seems to be lacking in Fluff, such as the stories and such from the old codex. And a lot of it seems to repeat. But, in all honest, it doesn't bother me, since they still have descriptions on each unit, some of the background, and I love the Dynasty section with all the color schemes and such. Plus, each entry for each unit has background there too.

I'm not saying there's nothing missing from this book, I'm just saying it doesn't bother me that much. Since I have the 5th Ed book, I already know all the stories and such, so yeah...

KingDeath wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Old-OldCrons sucked and were as boring as whale crap. 5th Ed at least gave them some actual flavor other than "killer robots with pseudo-Lovecraftian Killer Robo-Alien Overlords that just want to kill everything because Killbots kill".

Not sure how the fluff from Terminator is worse than Adeptus Necrons.

Huh?

In their current state Necrons actually have character, and resemble various aspect of Greek mythology with their miserable short lifespans, rising up to fight their oppressors and being crushed, finding and pledging themselves to new gods and crushing their old foes, only to find themselves deceived and their race enslaved. Then finally the Necron civilization rises up and smites their own gods.

In their current state they are yet another sheming and bickering faction pillaging ancient greek and egyptian tropes. Humans with just some cosmetic differences. Oldcrons had the good old faceless technological horrors from the abyss of time vibe for me which is now partialy lost. Although the "C'tan" did everything aspect was stupid.

edit: Tough Nemesor Zandrekh is awesome.

In their old state, Necrons were just metal Tyranids with ancient Greek and Egyptian tropes.

You're not making a very good case there, man. lol

 dusara217 wrote:

They probably had said weapons in the fight against the Old Ones, but the Old Ones aren't Gods. They are an entire race of beings with technology that far surpasses that of the Necrons. They would undoubtedly have a counter for said weapons, and even if they didn't, they would still have the numbers to overcome it (robots AND Old Ones)

Necrons are the technologically most advanced race in the entire universe. The Old Ones weren't gods, but the C'tan are. They are the most powerful corporeal beings in the entire universe, able to bend time and space at mere will. The Outsider's mere presence (!!!) made an entire Tyranid Hivefleet turn around and run in fear. The Nightbringer is forever imprinted in the memory of all inferior races (well...not Orcs I guess ). You cannot, by any means, develop a weapon that is able to counter the power to manipulate the universe itself.

Black Stone Fortresses countered Ctan pretty well iirc.

And the Emperor using a horse and iron sword/shield. lulz.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Not the Necrons themselves. The C'tan. Because very old, very powerful star-gods!

Well they still are, only the Necrons beat them with SCIENCE! so scary they immediately destroyed the weapons. Not to mention that the C'tan are still reforming. They can't be put down, doing so has adverse effects like the Flayer Virus.

Gosh, that is one of the biggest plot holes I have ever seen in any piece of liter...I'm not even calling that literature. I mean, first of all, they need the C'Tan to defeat the Old Ones, but then suddenly develop mysterious weapons able to take down STAR GODS that are FAR MORE POWERFUL than the Old Ones. Then, suddenly, those weapons disappeared again. How could someone who wrote this even consider suddenly becoming a writer? D:

You mean like how Necrons have pioneered technology to such a degree that they can create melee weapons capable of blowing up planets, their basic firearms break down atomic bonds and suck them back into the gun, have the ability to travel back in time, have a device that could destroy the entire galaxy, teleportation, travel through alternate dimensions, lock objects outside of time, etc.

Not only are Necrons leagues ahead of every other faction in terms of technology, it's completely in character for them as Necrons are the only race to responsibly use WMD's. Unlike humans, orks, or Eldar, Necrons actually believe and practice disarmament. Plus the C'tan were heavily weakened from the fighting the Old Ones, and it's entirely possible the Necrons simply abused time travel so they could constantly work upon the technology to create weapons capable of felling the C'tan via infinite repeats.


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 Sigvatr wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

They probably had said weapons in the fight against the Old Ones, but the Old Ones aren't Gods. They are an entire race of beings with technology that far surpasses that of the Necrons. They would undoubtedly have a counter for said weapons, and even if they didn't, they would still have the numbers to overcome it (robots AND Old Ones)

Necrons are the technologically most advanced race in the entire universe. The Old Ones weren't gods, but the C'tan are. They are the most powerful corporeal beings in the entire universe, able to bend time and space at mere will. The Outsider's mere presence (!!!) made an entire Tyranid Hivefleet turn around and run in fear. The Nightbringer is forever imprinted in the memory of all inferior races (well...not Orcs I guess ). You cannot, by any means, develop a weapon that is able to counter the power to manipulate the universe itself.

The entire Necron shtick is that they're able to fully master the material realm. Although if I had to guess, I'd imagine that they weaponized either dark matter or dark energy to bring down the C'tan by undoing the very fabric that holds the universe together.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

They probably had said weapons in the fight against the Old Ones, but the Old Ones aren't Gods. They are an entire race of beings with technology that far surpasses that of the Necrons. They would undoubtedly have a counter for said weapons, and even if they didn't, they would still have the numbers to overcome it (robots AND Old Ones)

Necrons are the technologically most advanced race in the entire universe. The Old Ones weren't gods, but the C'tan are. They are the most powerful corporeal beings in the entire universe, able to bend time and space at mere will. The Outsider's mere presence (!!!) made an entire Tyranid Hivefleet turn around and run in fear. The Nightbringer is forever imprinted in the memory of all inferior races (well...not Orcs I guess ). You cannot, by any means, develop a weapon that is able to counter the power to manipulate the universe itself.

In the Tyranids' defense, any surviving C'tan also have the combined power of several C'tan because they started eating each other. And my mistake on the technology, I would have thought of Warptech as technology, but my mistake. And I'd say that the power of the sun (which is basically the power of the C'tan) could at least shatter a C'tan


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 BlaxicanX wrote:
And the Emperor using a horse and iron sword/shield. lulz.

That was just a little anecdote to demonstrate the fact that the Emprah is a God made flesh

The C'Tan aren't gods, they're simply ancient Xenos. They're the star-vampires of 1930s sci-fi (Lovecraft mentioned these guys in a couple memoirs). That they were worshipped as gods by the Necrons was, by their own admission, a mistake.

They're apparently not immortal either, since they seem to have killed one during the War in Heaven.

 Psienesis wrote:
Old-OldCrons sucked and were as boring as whale crap. 5th Ed at least gave them some actual flavor other than "killer robots with pseudo-Lovecraftian Killer Robo-Alien Overlords that just want to kill everything because Killbots kill".

How is making them like most of the other factions giving them actual flavor?

They also had a reason (not a particularly comprehensible one though, mind you) for their hatred of life, but you wouldn't know that since you didn't read the codex, My son.

Da Butcha wrote:
Sadly, I think a lot of this is due to the success of the Black Library novels.

To GW's (wrong, wrong, wrong) way of thinking, why give away the fluff when you can charge separately for it? Thus, the codexes feature minimal background, so that it can be sold to you in a novel.

This is, as usual, utterly wrong.

First, a interesting bit of background in a Codex piques the interest of a reader, leading them to seek out a book. The absence of background does nothing. The smell of baking cookies makes you want one. The smell of nothing doesn't make you even MORE hungry for a cookie.

Second, many cool and interesting things in the background don't call out for a novel, or a novella, or whatever they are calling 4 pages of fiction at $5. Often a sidebar or a blurb is all that you need! We don't need a novel focusing on the epic battle where Wazzdakka zoomed off a cliff and through the void shields of a titan, only to crash into the cockpit and slaughter the crew. We just need a little story about how flying rodent gak insane he is!

Third, there isnt nearly enough novels with alien armies as the protagonist to justify this. One of the great things i always thought about GW fluff was that the "bad guys" actually got to win so often(in their own fluff at least)

anyone know of any good ones at least focused on Orks or Tyranids or Necrons or Tau?

 Wyzilla wrote:


Huh?

In their current state Necrons actually have character, and resemble various aspect of Greek mythology

That describes over half the factions in 40k.

with their miserable short lifespans,

Was in the first codex.

rising up to fight their oppressors and being crushed,

In the first codex.

finding and pledging themselves to new gods and crushing their old foes,

In the first codex (I'm getting the impression you never read it).

only to find themselves deceived and their race enslaved.

Was willing in the old codex, which made their faction more unique than generically being screwed over by Mephistopheles (like what happens with every Chaos pact ever).

Then finally the Necron civilization rises up and smites their own gods.

Still generic, but at least new to 40k.

I still to this day do not know how the Necrons could really be described as Lovecraftian except in the vaguest sense at all.

Lovecraftian horror that "emphasizes the cosmic forces of the unknown". The Necrons were a cosmic force with a motive and origin completely unknown to humanity, and they wielded weaponry that no other race could comprehend.

They were always Lovecraftian. It is only your misunderstanding of the term that led you to believe otherwise.


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 BlaxicanX wrote:
In their old state, Necrons were just metal Tyranids with ancient Greek and Egyptian tropes.

You're not making a very good case there, man. lol

Quiet =/= mindless without a hive mind.

The Necrons were without any intelligence in the rank and file, but the upper echelons were consistently portrayed as capable of thought.

The Necrons were, along with the Tyranids, the only truly inhuman race (the Orks sometimes counted too, but they heavily vary) in 40k.

The newcron fluff was okay in theory, but terribly handled and with at least one enormous plot hole.

So the Deceiver tricks the Necrons into enslaving themselves and all Necrons are made into mindless automatons. Except the Silent King, their leader.

Why? Why was he alone granted sentience? Why was he then gifted the keys to the entire Necron race, allowing him to overpower the C'tan and shatter them? This is a pretty serious plot hole, considering this singular event was what was irrevocably used to retcon all Necron lore. But because Ward is something of a dumb guy, he couldn't even do this right.

The fifth edition codex was stupid.

The fluff was at it's worst with Ward. Now it's slightly improved.

Why can't they just collaborate with what they're doing? The fluff of 40k would be SO much better if the authors would just collaborate with eachother when they're writing to ensure that they aren't just writing a big steaming pile of bad fluff.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Why? Why was he alone granted sentience? Why was he then gifted the keys to the entire Necron race, allowing him to overpower the C'tan and shatter them?

Plenty other had sentience, but they were bound by the command protocols. As to why the Silent King was autonomous, the bio-transference was a Necrontyr labour. The C'tan taught them bio-transferance was possible, but it was the Necrontyr who made it happen. Then there's the C'tan's arrogance, they never thought that the Necrons would turn on them.

I also don't see how they were Lovecraftian, they were completely comprehensible. The Necrons were driven by anger, and the C'tan were driven by their epicurean tastes.
Even their technology was understandable, while the AdMech couldn't build a gauss flayer because they lacked the precision they understood the principle of how it worked.

 dusara217 wrote:
Why can't they just collaborate with what they're doing? The fluff of 40k would be SO much better if the authors would just collaborate with eachother when they're writing to ensure that they aren't just writing a big steaming pile of bad fluff.

Do you know how impractical that would be? Plus think if they figured to make a write-team of Goto and Ward.

And I thought there were some collaboration on the Horus Heresy-novels.

 Psienesis wrote:
The C'Tan aren't gods, they're simply ancient Xenos. They're the star-vampires of 1930s sci-fi (Lovecraft mentioned these guys in a couple memoirs). That they were worshipped as gods by the Necrons was, by their own admission, a mistake.

They're apparently not immortal either, since they seem to have killed one during the War in Heaven.

C'tan are a fundamental part of the universe, like the forces of the universe (gravity, electromagnetism, etc). To unmake one, the Necrons had to build a weapon that broke reality in order to erase one. However the cost of permanently killing a C'tan is far greater then the result of it being wiped out.


Also, as an avid Lovecraft fan, I have never gotten the impression of the Necrons in any state being "Lovecraftian". They weren't incomprehensible eldritch abominations that cause you to start eating your best friend from going insane at their exposure, they were SPESS Terminators wielding Tesla guns from Command and Conquer.

The first HH book from FW mentions heavy collaboration w/ BL.

Also 7th ed Orks have 3x the fluff of 3rd ed Orks.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Why can't they just collaborate with what they're doing? The fluff of 40k would be SO much better if the authors would just collaborate with eachother when they're writing to ensure that they aren't just writing a big steaming pile of bad fluff.

Do you know how impractical that would be? Plus think if they figured to make a write-team of Goto and Ward.

And I thought there were some collaboration on the Horus Heresy-novels.

They don't ALL have to collaborate, just clear some of their ideas with one or two other authors to make ensure you aren't writing utter crap

 dusara217 wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Why can't they just collaborate with what they're doing? The fluff of 40k would be SO much better if the authors would just collaborate with eachother when they're writing to ensure that they aren't just writing a big steaming pile of bad fluff.

Do you know how impractical that would be? Plus think if they figured to make a write-team of Goto and Ward.

And I thought there were some collaboration on the Horus Heresy-novels.

They don't ALL have to collaborate, just clear some of their ideas with one or two other authors to make ensure you aren't writing utter crap

Yeah as usual I tend to agree with you, but the quality varies. as you have great writers like Abnett, McNeil and Mitchell. Non-descript like ABN (who morons online love to quote as having an excuse for acting like idiots) and crappy ones like Kelly and Goto.

The Fluff is in a lot of ways contradictory or it can get odd at times. Like:

-Over Fiend of Octarius (There are 4 current ones all of which are alive)

-Warp-smiths being punished by the chaos gods for building too many daemon engines (despite this being a Warp-Smith's primary job)

- Chaos Renegade Chapters suddenly abandoning a lot of their current war-gear in favor of either ancient equipment they would most likely not have the knowledge to make or that would only be found in the armory of a chaos legion (Reaper auto-cannons and havoc launchers)

-Kustom Forcefields no bigger than the ones found on Morkanauts, Big Meks and Meka-Dreads being strong enough to shield against a direct impact from a comet.

-The difference between a MC that is mechanical and a Walker.

-The Red Corsairs having the strength of a Chaos Space Marine legion (Though I assume it is a small one).

-The none-sense about a Tau Broadside's rail-rifles being strong enough to punch through one side of a Stompa and out the other.

-Malodrax's supposed ruler, which was Shon'tu in the Sentinels of Terra codex, yet in the novel the Warsmith in charge was "Kraegon Thul".

- Eldar Avatars with ambitions that perhaps work against the Eldar.

-A warp god that may not exist in the warp (The Laughing God which is said to dwell in the web-way)

-A Tau manta (which is a small interstellar craft btw) being implied to have a significant chance of being defeated in combat by an Imperial Titan.

-Those same Manta's and Hammer-Heads being able to operate under-water.

-Kroot being un-intelligent enough to try and eat Necrons (the result is as horrific as can be imagined).


But if they can justify it at GW command, I guess its canon.

What edition was the rail rifle thing is, because they did use to be actual rail guns. Although, knowing ork tech, it could probably o right through without damaging anything other than a few grots.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
What edition was the rail rifle thing is, because they did use to be actual rail guns. Although, knowing ork tech, it could probably o right through without damaging anything other than a few grots.

In the 4th and 5th the Rail Rifle-Gun(?) weapon used by the Broad-side was just as powerful as the one used by the hammerhead tank.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
What edition was the rail rifle thing is, because they did use to be actual rail guns. Although, knowing ork tech, it could probably o right through without damaging anything other than a few grots.

In the 4th and 5th the Rail Rifle-Gun(?) weapon used by the Broad-side was just as powerful as the one used by the hammerhead tank.

Not just that, it was a railgun. There was no such thing as a HRR until this edition.

Animus wrote:
Plenty other had sentience, but they were bound by the command protocols. As to why the Silent King was autonomous, the bio-transference was a Necrontyr labour. The C'tan taught them bio-transferance was possible, but it was the Necrontyr who made it happen.

Why didn't they give command protocols to the Silent King? Why grant him control of their armies?

Then there's the C'tan's arrogance, they never thought that the Necrons would turn on them.

So you're saying it's because they were stupid? That assessment flies in the face of the Deceiver's characterization.

Sorry, but it's bad writing.

I also don't see how they were Lovecraftian, they were completely comprehensible. The Necrons were driven by anger, and the C'tan were driven by their epicurean tastes.

I don't believe you comprehend what it means to "comprehend" something. You can conceive of the fact that the Necrons were filled with envy and hatred for the immortal Old Ones, and thus willingly murdered their entire race to kill all life. Can you really comprehend how or why someone would want to do that, though? No, of course you can't. Similarly, I can conceive of why Cthulhu wants to destroy/take over Earth. Because he was there first, and the new races are crowding it up so he wants to destroy/enslave them. Is he also not Lovecraftian?

Even their technology was understandable, while the AdMech couldn't build a gauss flayer because they lacked the precision they understood the principle of how it worked.

No, they guessed at the principle. They had no real idea how it functioned, and outright stated it should be impossible.

Necron technology is and always has been portrayed as basically magic, for all intents and purposes.


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 Wyzilla wrote:

Also, as an avid Lovecraft fan, I have never gotten the impression of the Necrons in any state being "Lovecraftian".

That's because you don't understand what that term means.

They weren't incomprehensible eldritch abominations that cause you to start eating your best friend from going insane at their exposure,

That's because the C'tan were.

The Necrons were more along the lines of the cultists that appear within Lovecraft's work that serve said abominations. Though the Necrons are in fact far more Lovecraftian than the average cultist in a Lovecraftian work.

There's also something you all are forgetting. You're viewing the Necrons from the perspective of an omniscient reader who knows everything about the Necron fluff. From the perspective of the Imperials, they were a completely Lovecraftian force with motives no one knew but an undeniable alien intelligence behind them. The Imperium only had old xenos myths to guess at their origins, and the C'tan were a nearly unknown threat.

Their presence in the setting was 100% Lovecraftian.

Having seen what they've released afterwards, I feel it's safe to say that 6th Edition Space Marines was the best codex out of all the new ones. Both in terms of playability, format, and fluff.

darkcloak wrote:
Having seen what they've released afterwards, I feel it's safe to say that 6th Edition Space Marines was the best codex out of all the new ones. Both in terms of playability, format, and fluff.

I will wholeheartedly agree with this. The Codex is brilliant for anyone wanting to make their own chapter.

I dunno, I had the new Orks des for awhile, gave it away because it was so uninspiring. I had a look at the new wolves codex, I wish I was a veteran so I had a copy of the 5th Ed codex already! I like the way the new wolves got reformed, I think that codex can make some cool lists, but the whole book feels like a colouring book now. The digital art totally sucks and the only new thing in the whole book is the fluff for the new units. Even then it's like " Space Wolves use Stormwolves to transport troops" . What?! No way!

The SM codex in the other hand? Literally stuffed with fluff! I have owned that book for 2 years now and I still pick it up and find new things to peak my interest. Not to mention the mini showcase. All new codices seem to have really dropped the ball with the model porn! C:SM has a model for pretty much every single chapter, every major chapter has a 2-3 page spread. Not to mention the little vignettes and all the absolutely stunning artwork. Every time I look at the pic ofthe Imperial Fist firing his Bolter I want to build a scout army.

Space Wolves codex art makes me want to never imagine anything ever again, just in case it comes out in World of Warcraft CG grayscale puke-bile.

I went back and looked at my small collection of old codexes. They were kind of crap, but nostalgic crap. The new stuff has problems too, but I disagree with the OPs premise. It's always been hit or miss and quality is subjective (thankfully!).