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I personally think that shotguns aren't good enough in the 40K TT. Sure, a shorter range and more shots, but I feel like it doesn't make them worth that much. Iw ant to be able to have a squad of Shotgun Scouts and clear an entire street with them.

I propose this: All shotguns are template weapons. Every model within the template, friendly or not, takes D3 hits with the strength of the shotgun. Does it make sense?

Skip the d3 hits, let the shotgun fire as either Assault 2/S4 or Assault 1/S3/Template to represent the shot as opposed to the slug, and you should be fine. You might need to hand other armies shotgun-equivalents, though.

Hm, so you're suggesting that i can switch between slugs and buckshots? Interesting...

In the real world shot doesn't spread enough to be a practical area effect weapon when fired from a normal shotgun.* Instead it creates a small cloud of shot, typically no wider than a dinner plate.

The advantage shotshells spreading is that you are more likely to score a hit if your aim is a little off or your target is moving quickly.

So, if you want a rule that fits Shotguns, Twin-Linked would probably be closest, though that may be a tad to strong. Rerolling 1s on the To Hit roll is probably the most plausible and realistic.



* extremely short barrelled shotguns will spray pellets around in a surprisingly broad arc, but their accuracy and range is extremely reduced at the same time. Shotguns as seen in WH40K do not seem to be based on such short barrelled weapons.

Pellets aren't good at penetrating cover however. Appropriate would be a rule that explicitly states models may take cover saves.

Little thing to remember - The teardrop templates ignore cover.

That's some fething powerful slugs that is.

Edit: My bad, didn't read properly

Even with a open choke, buckshot will only spread to about a 6" diameter at 20 yards. If you're firing center of mass, you're still only gonna hit 1 target.

Perhaps then instead of a blast weapon or D3 hits the shotguns reroll to wound? Since there are multiple rounds/shells/pellets hitting the target.

I went and double-checked Necromunda out of curiosity, there slugs are S4, shot is S3 with +1 to hit at short range (within 4") and hits anyone in base contact with the target on a 4+. From that and the remarks from people who know more about actual shotguns than I do I'd guess it'd make more sense to give shotguns either one S4/AP5 shot or two S3/AP- shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Necromunda also has overcharged slugs that have an AP value but are more expensive, dragon's breath rounds that reroll to wound, and bolter shells because some people get creative with their shotguns)

DoomShakaLaka wrote:Perhaps then instead of a blast weapon or D3 hits the shotguns reroll to wound? Since there are multiple rounds/shells/pellets hitting the target.

That would probably be more apropos

AnomanderRake wrote:I went and double-checked Necromunda out of curiosity, there slugs are S4, shot is S3 with +1 to hit at short range (within 4") and hits anyone in base contact with the target on a 4+. From that and the remarks from people who know more about actual shotguns than I do I'd guess it'd make more sense to give shotguns either one S4/AP5 shot or two S3/AP- shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Necromunda also has overcharged slugs that have an AP value but are more expensive, dragon's breath rounds that reroll to wound, and bolter shells because some people get creative with their shotguns)

Now, Dragon's Breath rounds would make sense as a template, since they shoot out in big gouts. Of course, they're also unlikely to do much damage to someone in flakk armor, and would probably do nothing at all to someone in power armor; they're mostly for show, the kagnesium in them burns bright but not all that hot. Honestly, though, they should be like S1 AP-.

To put it simply, you're not going to have a squad of scouts with shotguns "clearing streets".

I'll assume that they use something a bit bigger than a traditional 12ga in the grim darkness of the future, so maybe a 10 or 8ga? I don't know if they currently exist, outside of custom designs, but maybe even as low as a 6 or 4?

First, note that a bolter, S4 AP5, is supposed to be .75 caliber, and fires what can best be described as rockets as they do contain propellant. They hit stuff, they explode.

To convert ga to caliber, IIRC a 10ga shotgun has very close diameter to a bolter shell. Going up to an 8ga still only increases your size by an insignificant amount when we're looking at .75 caliber.

If you want your shotgun to match the destructive capabilities of a bolter, keeping in mind that a shotgun slug doesn't explode, you'll need at least an 8ga slug. And it won't have any AP, or if it does it'll just barely be scraping AP6.

If you want to use shot now instead, you're:
A) going to lose all hope of AP
B) going to have a drop in damage at range
C) going to potentially lose range
D) as stated above, this isn't a cannon firing grapeshot, it hits one guy

TLDR
Assault 2 S4 AP- 12"
Assault 2 S3 AP- 8" shred

 Matthew wrote:
I personally think that shotguns aren't good enough in the 40K TT. Sure, a shorter range and more shots, but I feel like it doesn't make them worth that much. Iw ant to be able to have a squad of Shotgun Scouts and clear an entire street with them.

I propose this: All shotguns are template weapons. Every model within the template, friendly or not, takes D3 hits with the strength of the shotgun. Does it make sense?

We have had this exact thread before.

nothing ever conclusive about it.

and as per the last thread, i would pref it to stay the same but with full or partial BS when overwatching instead as generally its simple to bring to bear (or D3 auto hits). once it becomes a template, why would you be able to ignore cover? wouldnt a wall or boulder provide excellent cover vs a bunch of pellets?

 Matthew wrote:
I propose this: All shotguns are template weapons. Every model within the template, friendly or not, takes D3 hits with the strength of the shotgun. Does it make sense?

So they're basically flamers that hit d3 times instead of once? No. If I were to change shotguns, I'd make them S3 with Shred. It makes them much better against T3, marginally better against T4, and worse against T5 and above. I'd prefer something that would make them better against T3 but worse against T4, but I'm not sure how (funnily enough, Tesla produces the numbers I want, but not in the right way).

EDIT: Do shotguns fire two shots or three? I can't remember. I have never used them or had them used against me, and I don't have any books available. If they fire three shots, S2 with Shred works perfectly.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
I propose this: All shotguns are template weapons. Every model within the template, friendly or not, takes D3 hits with the strength of the shotgun. Does it make sense?

So they're basically flamers that hit d3 times instead of once? No. If I were to change shotguns, I'd make them S3 with Shred. It makes them much better against T3, marginally better against T4, and worse against T5 and above. I'd prefer something that would make them better against T3 but worse against T4, but I'm not sure how (funnily enough, Tesla produces the numbers I want, but not in the right way).

EDIT: Do shotguns fire two shots or three? I can't remember. I have never used them or had them used against me, and I don't have any books available. If they fire three shots, S2 with Shred works perfectly.

What in real life?

in book rules IIRC they are assault 2

In the game, of course. They really do seem pointless. Sure, you can charge after, but you can't get shotguns on a decent assault unit. Then again, this is the same army that has its sniper rifles exclusively used by the worst shooters.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
In the game, of course. They really do seem pointless. Sure, you can charge after, but you can't get shotguns on a decent assault unit. Then again, this is the same army that has its sniper rifles exclusively used by the worst shooters.

That doesn't even pin anymore. defeth?

Only BS3 Scouts get sniper rifles, not BS4 Initiates.

That said, if you wanted to include rules for Buckshot, I'd do something like this;


Range 24" S3 AP - Assault 2, Twin-Linked, Shred.

The narrow spread of shot doesn't let you hit multiple targets, but it does let you hit the same target multiple times, giving you more chances to hit a weak-point (TL) or inflict a meaningful wound (Shred). On the other hand, the smaller pellets don't carry the same stopping power as a larger slug.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Only BS3 Scouts get sniper rifles, not BS4 Initiates.

That said, if you wanted to include rules for Buckshot, I'd do something like this;


Range 24" S3 AP - Assault 2, Twin-Linked, Shred.

The narrow spread of shot doesn't let you hit multiple targets, but it does let you hit the same target multiple times, giving you more chances to hit a weak-point (TL) or inflict a meaningful wound (Shred). On the other hand, the smaller pellets don't carry the same stopping power as a larger slug.

Why would you say 24" range for shot? That's the range that rifles have.....

Also, why twin-linked? The rule is generally used to imply that you're firing twice as many rounds, whereas shot you either hit them or you don't and you're only firing one shell at a time, not two like TL bolters. Shred is the only rule I'd attach to it, as you're hitting them with more than one pellet.

Shotguns should be 24" range, and when it hits you place the teardrop template facing directly in line from the two troopers.

 kingbobbito wrote:

Why would you say 24" range for shot? That's the range that rifles have.....

Also, why twin-linked? The rule is generally used to imply that you're firing twice as many rounds, whereas shot you either hit them or you don't and you're only firing one shell at a time, not two like TL bolters. Shred is the only rule I'd attach to it, as you're hitting them with more than one pellet.

Sorry, that was in error. Should be the same range as a standard shotgun.

Twin-linked is because you aren't firing a single slug, you're effectively firing between what, 10 and 20 pellets in a close grouping. Shot does spread out a little as it flies - to about the size of a dinner plate, which is the same distance apart the two shots of a standard twin-linked weapon are spaced. It shows that some of the shot hit but the rest went on past.

The shotties on scouts look like they are pump shotties. Makes no sense we have high powered laser weapons and these guys are using pump shotties.

The shotguns should be full automatic with a profile like this.

Range 12" st4 ap- Shred assault 2. Essentially just add shred. lol

 Matthew wrote:
I personally think that shotguns aren't good enough in the 40K TT. Sure, a shorter range and more shots, but I feel like it doesn't make them worth that much. Iw ant to be able to have a squad of Shotgun Scouts and clear an entire street with them.

I propose this: All shotguns are template weapons. Every model within the template, friendly or not, takes D3 hits with the strength of the shotgun. Does it make sense?

I like where this is going. I could see a template weapon working but maybe at str 2ish?

If there is one weapon (irl) I would want in close quarters, it would be a shotgun.... the best general choice imo.

kveldulf wrote:


If there is one weapon (irl) I would want in close quarters, it would be a shotgun.... the best general choice imo.

Why? Comparatively slow rate of fire (compared to an autorifle, for example), poor armour penetration and limited mobility due to the barrel length. Close-quarters, an SMG is flat out better.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

kveldulf wrote:


If there is one weapon (irl) I would want in close quarters, it would be a shotgun.... the best general choice imo.

Why? Comparatively slow rate of fire (compared to an autorifle, for example), poor armour penetration and limited mobility due to the barrel length. Close-quarters, an SMG is flat out better.

Look up auto shotguns - best anti personnel weapon for close quarters combat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8

I like assault 2, on scouts at least, move away, shoot.

From a game play POV, I’m not fond of blast/template weapons that can be handed out to whole squads. They slow the game down. If you want to boost shotguns, I think the full BS on snap-shots is the way to go. It’s a nice, albeit situational boost, that’s not so big you need to start re-pricing upgrades.

I would suggest something like keeping them the same, but improving overwatch. Maybe fire at BS, or possible even something along the lines of a single auto hit a la "wall of death"

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

kveldulf wrote:


If there is one weapon (irl) I would want in close quarters, it would be a shotgun.... the best general choice imo.

Why? Comparatively slow rate of fire (compared to an autorifle, for example), poor armour penetration and limited mobility due to the barrel length. Close-quarters, an SMG is flat out better.

Look up auto shotguns - best anti personnel weapon for close quarters combat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8

You realize a fully auto shotgun would be incredibly impractical and fairly unwieldy. sure possibly fine on a SPESS MARHIN but still at the issue of actual accuracy in the case of shot rather than slug.

Il take the SMG any day of the week.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

kveldulf wrote:


If there is one weapon (irl) I would want in close quarters, it would be a shotgun.... the best general choice imo.

Why? Comparatively slow rate of fire (compared to an autorifle, for example), poor armour penetration and limited mobility due to the barrel length. Close-quarters, an SMG is flat out better.

Look up auto shotguns - best anti personnel weapon for close quarters combat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8

Or play Fallout. Or pick up the Piranha in ME3. Automatic shotguns are terrifying.

 Nevelon wrote:
From a game play POV, I’m not fond of blast/template weapons that can be handed out to whole squads. They slow the game down. If you want to boost shotguns, I think the full BS on snap-shots is the way to go. It’s a nice, albeit situational boost, that’s not so big you need to start re-pricing upgrades.

I think shotguns are mostly fine as is, but I do like that suggestion. And it's one that I generally like for other short range weapons that often don't get their chance to shoot (ie 15 point pistols).

Add this rule:

Close quarters: weapons with this rule are made for face to face combat. They fire over watch at full BS.