(August 21, 2016) Vehicle & Monstrous Creature Design Rules (V6)

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Reinokarite wrote:
With some aproximation Nephilim Jet Fighter comes out to be around 150 points without it's "Dedicated Hunter" rule. Pretty fair.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And LS Vengeance is 114 points. I like it more and more.

Yeah, they were WAY off with the special land speeders and flyers. I think they were afraid of the ap2 at the start of 6th ed. and the blind rule isn't as strong as they thought it would be. Glad you like it, keep'em comming!

**megatrons2nd**

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
megatrons2nd wrote:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

@mathew, I would do that, but the variables for them are way to scattered. I wouldn't have been able to do this if I didn't have a starting g point.

I had the infantry done once upon a time. It wasn't hard, it just needed some reverse engineering, and choosing a starting point. I chose marines, but that was when they were 15 points each. I have tried doing it again, but it appears it is a simple 1 point for each change, and 1 point for 6 inches of range.

Using Eldar/Dark Eldar as an example: Guardian Defenders are 9 points each, and so are Storm Guardians. They both have the same rules, only the Catapult changed to a pistol and CC weapon. The CC weapon and pistol up their attacks to 2, making them the same cost. Dire Avengers get a better save by 1 point, a better LD by 1 point, 6" more range for 1 point, and Counter attack for 1 point, making them 13 points. Dark Eldar Kabalite Warriors Get 6" more range for 1 point(don't forget the Battle Focus rule), the special rules for the guns make them different but not necessarily better than the other, lose 1 point for the loss of grenades, and lose 1 point because they can't assault after shooting. Making them 8 points each. Wyches gain 1 for initiative, lose 1 for the SV, lose 1 for the loss of 6" of Range(again due to Battle Focus), gain 1 for Dodge, and gain 1 for combat drugs. Making them 10 points per model.

Yes, I understand some of the rules are bad as compared to others, and I know I am adding the maximum distance to the Battle Focus roll, but it works. Have fun, please note that further upgrades were not done, and I feel that GW just randomly throws numbers at upgrades. Does an upgrade to SV4+ on Guard units still cost almost as much as a marine?

Now that is interesting, I had started to break it down based on minimum unit size, and build them in clusters of wounds from 1-10. I'll see what I can do with that as a starting point in the future. I have to catch up on my 2 RPG's I'm currently running.

I had a formula that...mostly worked. Hormagaunts broke it, due to the BS, and not having a gun. They ended up costing like 2 points or something like that. Here is the formula I created:

Ranged: ([BS multiplied by weapon range(per 6") ] plus [Weapon Strength times AP]) multiplied by RoF
I used a RoF of 2 for small blasts, 4 for large blasts and 3 for templates.

Melee: ([WS plus initiative] times[Strength plus AP]) times number of Attacks
I included the bonus for 2 close combat weapons where applicable.

Survivability: Wounds times [ (toughness times SV) plus LD]

Overall: Ranged plus Melee plus Survivability divided by 3

I worked out numbers that worked(aside from AP on melee weapons that is a new addition) on most troops choice units. Feel free to prioritize the numbers as you wish. Maybe you can get the formula to work better.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

megatrons2nd wrote:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
megatrons2nd wrote:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

@mathew, I would do that, but the variables for them are way to scattered. I wouldn't have been able to do this if I didn't have a starting g point.

I had the infantry done once upon a time. It wasn't hard, it just needed some reverse engineering, and choosing a starting point. I chose marines, but that was when they were 15 points each. I have tried doing it again, but it appears it is a simple 1 point for each change, and 1 point for 6 inches of range.

Using Eldar/Dark Eldar as an example: Guardian Defenders are 9 points each, and so are Storm Guardians. They both have the same rules, only the Catapult changed to a pistol and CC weapon. The CC weapon and pistol up their attacks to 2, making them the same cost. Dire Avengers get a better save by 1 point, a better LD by 1 point, 6" more range for 1 point, and Counter attack for 1 point, making them 13 points. Dark Eldar Kabalite Warriors Get 6" more range for 1 point(don't forget the Battle Focus rule), the special rules for the guns make them different but not necessarily better than the other, lose 1 point for the loss of grenades, and lose 1 point because they can't assault after shooting. Making them 8 points each. Wyches gain 1 for initiative, lose 1 for the SV, lose 1 for the loss of 6" of Range(again due to Battle Focus), gain 1 for Dodge, and gain 1 for combat drugs. Making them 10 points per model.

Yes, I understand some of the rules are bad as compared to others, and I know I am adding the maximum distance to the Battle Focus roll, but it works. Have fun, please note that further upgrades were not done, and I feel that GW just randomly throws numbers at upgrades. Does an upgrade to SV4+ on Guard units still cost almost as much as a marine?

Now that is interesting, I had started to break it down based on minimum unit size, and build them in clusters of wounds from 1-10. I'll see what I can do with that as a starting point in the future. I have to catch up on my 2 RPG's I'm currently running.

I had a formula that...mostly worked. Hormagaunts broke it, due to the BS, and not having a gun. They ended up costing like 2 points or something like that. Here is the formula I created:

Ranged: ([BS multiplied by weapon range(per 6") ] plus [Weapon Strength times AP]) multiplied by RoF
I used a RoF of 2 for small blasts, 4 for large blasts and 3 for templates.

Melee: ([WS plus initiative] times[Strength plus AP]) times number of Attacks
I included the bonus for 2 close combat weapons where applicable.

Survivability: Wounds times [ (toughness times SV) plus LD]

Overall: Ranged plus Melee plus Survivability divided by 3

I worked out numbers that worked(aside from AP on melee weapons that is a new addition) on most troops choice units. Feel free to prioritize the numbers as you wish. Maybe you can get the formula to work better.

I don't know when I'll be able to do this project. With vehicles, the numbers are more static, and benefits per model are more easily quantifiable. How much does giving plasma grenades cost, for example. The whole unit has them, but only one may shoot with them, they can all use them in melee, but only against certain targets. I feel the math would be based on the base UNIT first, then divided by constituent models to native at a base cost.
I've been looking at the Necron vehicles, I'm thinking that the more restrictive the races vehicle allowance is, the more free stuff they get. Necrons get a lot of things, seemingly without cost! The gauss flayer array only costs 10 points! Quantum shielding is 35

**megatrons2nd**

Maybe that was my problem. I was trying to figure everything on a model by model basis, and upgrades are done as a squad. The base model costs seemed to work, but upgrades failed.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Another interesting find! With superheavy vehicles, when they have weapon swap options for free, they pay for the biggest gun and the rest scale down from there. That's why(a lot of times) there is an auto include gun. The others literally aren't worth the points.

**DoomShakaLaka**

Is this true of the warhound?

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Yes. I have several imperial titan weapon point totals on hand, can't remember which one they go on...
Gattling blaster 166
Melta cannon 292
Laser blaster 298
Volcano cannon 350
Apocalypse missile launcher 170
Knight paladin battle cannon 60
Knight errant melta cannon 79
Turbolaser destructor 275
Vulcan megabolter 121
Inferno gun 240
Plasma blastgun 293
As you can see, the point totals vary widely. They opted to make you pay for the biggest so the points wouldn't be too off, but you could take other variations for fluff and local meta purposes.

**DCannon4Life**

I was reminiscing about the Chapter Approved VDR just the other day! Nice job!

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

DCannon4Life wrote:
I was reminiscing about the Chapter Approved VDR just the other day! Nice job!

Thank you! I have some updates, and a few things I wanna arrange differently, as well as the Necron options. Enjoy!

**Talizvar**

I have to applaud the efforts of this for one main reason:

A way that makes sense to ensure a fair points cost assigned to a model.

This is the single most broken thing about 40k: when huge points "deals" are given or other models are charged too much.

Half the fun of something like Battletech is jumping into making your own custom Mech according to the rules.
40k needs something to test if points values are fair.

Again, well done, now I need to dust-off my old spreadsheet for vehicle creation (that article ages ago was so much fun!)

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

I also enjoyed it (obviously) I actually found the chapter approved book with it at half price books. When using this version to make current vehicles, you'll be around 10-15 points over what the codex says, and superheavies are normally around 40 points over. I did that on purpose because I didn't want people to abuse it to gain an unfair advantage, and to make the opponent more comfortable with the concept of playing against it.

**adamsouza**

I eagerly await your Necron options, so I can create a Necron Imperial Knight equivalent.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

adamsouza wrote:
I eagerly await your Necron options, so I can create a Necron Imperial Knight equivalent.

I gotta say, that sounds AWESOME! Can't wait to see what you do

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Link updated to the new version on the first page.

**adamsouza**

Now all I need are an Imperial Knight and T-800 to mash together.....

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

The design in my head is the imperial knight, - the shoulder armor, with a pile of pieces from the doomsday ark. Possibly using the support arches as a replacement for the upper armor plating...

**adamsouza**

Depending on what I can successfully model, I am debating between a 6" tall Lychguard looking walker, or some massive Canoptek Construct.

Fluffwise, I could see either one. Does it really matter how big a Necron's body is ? They could have just transefered the conciousness of a great Necron warrior into an oversized body. On the other hand, there is really no upper limit for the the size of a Canoptek Construct as well.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

If it was smaller than an imperial knight, people will complain if you stomp their carnifex with something the size of A dreadnaught.

**adamsouza**

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
If it was smaller than an imperial knight, people will complain if you stomp their carnifex with something the size of A dreadnaught.

True, true. If I go with the humanoid chasis, it would probably be based on a 6" T-800 action figure, which is about the same height as an Imperial Knight. If I go with a crawly Canoptek Construct, it would proably be a bit shorter, but sprawl out over the entire Knight sized base.

**spitfire703**

Quick question about the carriage upgrade. How far can a vehicle with this upgrade pull another vehicle with a single movement? Say a tank moves 12" in the movement phase, does whatever it's towing move the same distance or can it only be towed 6"? What about flat out, skimmers, and fast vehicles?

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

spitfire703 wrote:
Quick question about the carriage upgrade. How far can a vehicle with this upgrade pull another vehicle with a single movement? Say a tank moves 12" in the movement phase, does whatever it's towing move the same distance or can it only be towed 6"? What about flat out, skimmers, and fast vehicles?

Good question! It's 6", max. I'll add that to the next update.

**Evil Party Girl**

Hi. Nice work. I couldn't find price for fire points, access points, whether side sponson / reduced arc or TL made weapons cheaper. Cheers.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Evil Party Girl wrote:
Hi. Nice work. I couldn't find price for fire points, access points, whether side sponson / reduced arc or TL made weapons cheaper. Cheers.

Go with your gut and other similar vehicles in regards to fire points, and access points. In regards to reduced arc and whatnot, the points are for potency of the weapon. If after a few games you think it should drop a couple points for it, go ahead! These rules are a guideline that is very close to what I believe games workshop uses to design vehicles, therefore, it should always be play tested

Glad you like it BTW!

**Evil Party Girl**

I tried to price my grav rhinos and thought wow these are kind of expensive. But then I tried to price a codex rhino and it looks like its 45 points (por 50 points incl 5 points for repair?) without considering is a Troop choice and has 2 firing points. That's 30% more expensive. If I take 25-30% off what the grav rhino came too, I'm quite happy with the price.

Did you make things more expensive to offset the 'Its home brew and OP' argument? Or does the % difference decrease for 100+/200+ points vehicles?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
My bad, recalculated the standard rhino for 40 (+ no values for repair, troop, firing points) - not too far off, but those three items are quite useful on the table top.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

It's more the former. It isn't really a percentage, it's a 10-15 point overcosted for normal vehicles, and around 40 for superheavies. That's why I say play test them, that way you and your regular opponents can see where you want things to be.
In the old V.D.R., you could make a flimsy vehicle with ridiculous firepower for almost nothing, I offset that by making the durability and speed a higher cost than it really needs to be.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Evil Party Girl wrote:
I tried to price my grav rhinos and thought wow these are kind of expensive. But then I tried to price a codex rhino and it looks like its 45 points (por 50 points incl 5 points for repair?) without considering is a Troop choice and has 2 firing points. That's 30% more expensive. If I take 25-30% off what the grav rhino came too, I'm quite happy with the price.

Did you make things more expensive to offset the 'Its home brew and OP' argument? Or does the % difference decrease for 100+/200+ points vehicles?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
My bad, recalculated the standard rhino for 40 (+ no values for repair, troop, firing points) - not too far off, but those three items are quite useful on the table top.

Awesome hover rhinos! Also, while useful, they don't REALY affect the capabilities oh the vehicle itself. I've been tinkering around with transport capacity point values, I just haven't found an easier way to price it. The repair is probably worth nothing due to it not giving back the hull point and only working 1/6 of the time anyway.

**Evil Party Girl**

re: Armour - Medium + Light vehicle = 42(12).

I know you have draw the line somewhere but if this was 43(12) it works super well for F11 S11 R10. Otherwise Rhino must be a tank and gets +5 extra tax for the extra 1 armour. As a light vehicle it comes to 35 points. Yey!

I think a lot of people who will be pricing imperial vehicles probably have conversions based on Rhinos (and Chimera) patterns. Would be nice to calibrate tables for common STC patterns.

--

I hope my questions/comments are not coming across as negative. I think your tables are awesome.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
... while useful, they don't REALY affect the capabilities oh the vehicle itself...

Ok I'll leave you alone for a while after this one. But I noticed a massive difference in utility (not combat effectiveness) for the INQ Land Raider when Corteaz stopped getting the scoring unit rule for war bands (and dedicated transports). Nothing like a AV14 4HP scoring units packed full of CC goodness. In my group, people generally play the minimum troop slots, so ninja'ing a malestrom objective on a crowded board is not unusual.

That said, drop pods and transports for blood angels & space wolves are the same price as dedicated transports but loose ObSec I guess.

Too much math, my brain hurts!

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Evil Party Girl wrote:
re: Armour - Medium + Light vehicle = 42(12).

I know you have draw the line somewhere but if this was 43(12) it works super well for F11 S11 R10. Otherwise Rhino must be a tank and gets +5 extra tax for the extra 1 armour. As a light vehicle it comes to 35 points. Yey!

I think a lot of people who will be pricing imperial vehicles probably have conversions based on Rhinos (and Chimera) patterns. Would be nice to calibrate tables for common STC patterns.

--

I hope my questions/comments are not coming across as negative. I think your tables are awesome.

I actually thought about giving non skimmer imperial vehicles the tank upgrade for free, since that is what all their vehicles are.
No, you don't come across as being negative! I need the criticism and feedback to make this thing work

the only imperial army I play is spacewolves, so I didn't make a ton of personalized stuff for the humans. I just made sure they were in the right ballpark as I went through the breakdown phase.
In regards to obsec and other such bonuses, those aren't based on the vehicle itself, but the mission played in. If you play purge the alien, would you wanna PAY points for objective secured?

**adamsouza**

I wanted something the equivalent of an Imperial Knight, so I started with the imperial Knight Stat line, and then reduced the Initiatiative to 2.
WS 4, BS 4, S 10, I 2, A 2,

6 Hull points to get into the superheavy catergory +300pts

11 armor with quantum shielding was just to fragile for a super heavy, so 13 all around. Then I realised that there is no option for the shield like the Imperial Knights have, and opted for front armor 14 +90 pts

WS 4, BS 4, S 10, I 2, A 2, F 14, S 13, R 13, 6 HP Super Heavy Walker

Living Metal seemed llike a mandatory add-on for a Necron Heavy Vehicle. +5pts

Time for the Big Guns

TESLA OBLITERATOR - Tesla Sphere + Haywire Upgrade 25pts+50pts = 75 pts

GAUSS ERADICATOR ARRAY - Gauss Flayer Array + Speed Loader = 40pts

NECRON CANOPTEK LEVIATHAN - Necron Super Heavy Walker 510 points
WS 4, BS 4, S 10, I 2, A 2, F 14, S 13, R 13, 6 HP Super Heavy Walker
Living Metal, Fear, Hammer of Wrath, Invincible Behemoth, Move Through Cover, Relentless, Smash, Strikedown
TESLA OBLITERATOR - 24" S7 AP - Heavy 5, Tesla, Haywire
GAUSS FLAYER ERADICATOR ARRAY - 24" S4 AP 5 Salvo 10/20 Gauss, Independant Targeting

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

adamsouza wrote:
I wanted something the equivalent of an Imperial Knight, so I started with the imperial Knight Stat line, and then reduced the Initiatiative to 2.
WS 4, BS 4, S 10, I 2, A 2,

6 Hull points to get into the superheavy catergory +300pts

11 armor with quantum shielding was just to fragile for a super heavy, so 13 all around. Then I realised that there is no option for the shield like the Imperial Knights have, and opted for front armor 14 +90 pts

WS 4, BS 4, S 10, I 2, A 2, F 14, S 13, R 13, 6 HP Super Heavy Walker

Living Metal seemed llike a mandatory add-on for a Necron Heavy Vehicle. +5pts

Time for the Big Guns

TESLA OBLITERATOR - Tesla Sphere + Haywire Upgrade 25pts+50pts = 75 pts

GAUSS ERADICATOR ARRAY - Gauss Flayer Array + Speed Loader = 40pts

NECRON CANOPTEK LEVIATHAN - Necron Super Heavy Walker 510 points
WS 4, BS 4, S 10, I 2, A 2, F 14, S 13, R 13, 6 HP Super Heavy Walker
Living Metal, Fear, Hammer of Wrath, Invincible Behemoth, Move Through Cover, Relentless, Smash, Strikedown
TESLA OBLITERATOR - 24" S7 AP - Heavy 5, Tesla, Haywire
GAUSS FLAYER ERADICATOR ARRAY - 24" S4 AP 5 Salvo 10/20 Gauss, Independant Targeting

You actually pay 100 points for the additional 3 hull points, with what you have spent, pointwise , it would have 12 hull points

good job on that beast, BTW!

**lord_blackfang**

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
The VDR tended to be overpriced because it needed to be, otherwise all kinds of broken combinations would slip through.

But in standard GW fashion, they just made fluffy conversions unplayable while ridiculous WAAC abominations slipped through the cracks.

AV 9 drop pods with 50 bolters, anyone?