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 lord_blackfang wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
The VDR tended to be overpriced because it needed to be, otherwise all kinds of broken combinations would slip through.

But in standard GW fashion, they just made fluffy conversions unplayable while ridiculous WAAC abominations slipped through the cracks.

AV 9 drop pods with 50 bolters, anyone?

Av9 all around, immobilized, open topped, 3hp with 50 bolters? That'd be 165 points, that die the turn it comes in. Not a very good vehicle, especially since that price doesn't include the inertial guidance system or any sort of transport capacity. I deliberately tried to end that nonsense, and feel like I did a pretty good job. Not to mention, that you have to model that, and good luck getting 50 bolt guns on a rotating turret to be able to shoot them all at the same thing!

Edit: it also would only get to fire ONE of those guns the turn it drops, because it was still moving combat speed.

I never really had problems so much with people making their VDR vehicles broken good. It was mostly the ghastly models themselves.

A kid at the FLGS brought a 4" tall Gundam on a 6" square base with super heavy stats. It was the size of a Contemptor Dreadnaught with Warhound titan level stats.

There was also a guy with a poorly painted 6" T800 with plasma guns glued to his shoulders, of a similar power level.

Ugh! That would be a crappy thing to see! I used mine to make my wraithknight model the beast it should be. It annoyed me the an imperial Knight could stomp it, or worse, a tyranid hierodule! Those are literally less than half my knights size.
So, my knight is a 495 point superheavy walker with a strD melee weapon, 2 shuriken cannons, titan holofields, and a gattling, blast star cannon. He does everything a big stompy robot should

LB, you think you can run this vehicle through your VDR for me? I tried, but I am a bit dumb and genuinely can't figure it out.

Super-heavy Vehicle
BS3, 14/13/12, 9HP
Demolisher Cannon
TL Heavy Bolter
Searchlight
Smoke Launchers
(Above as Baneblade)
Inferno Gun (Off a Warhound Titan)

Spy_Smasher wrote:
LB, you think you can run this vehicle through your VDR for me? I tried, but I am a bit dumb and genuinely can't figure it out.

Super-heavy Vehicle
BS3, 14/13/12, 9HP
Demolisher Cannon
TL Heavy Bolter
Searchlight
Smoke Launchers
(Above as Baneblade)
Inferno Gun (Off a Warhound Titan)

Absolutely! That beast will cost 585 points. Not a bad way to eliminate infantry enmass, and won't be too much of a point sink at,1500-1850 point games

Thanks. I was just sort of taking a guess, price-wise. Everything requires playtesting, of course, but it's nice to have somewhere to start.

I noticed that there was no Hurricane Bolter on the list (unless I'm just being daft and have missed it?).
Or would I just take three bolters and twin-link them all?

Keep up the good work!

So... I think that flamers really shouldn't be able to take rending.

Flamer 4 points
Underpowered -25%
Shred +50%
Torrent +150%
Poisoned(4+) +25%
Rending +20% after all other additions.

(4+4*.5+4*1.5+4*.25)*1.2-(4*.25)=15 points
(4+2+6+1)*1.2-1=15
So 2 variants of the modified crop duster

Kroot Small Flyer
9 all around -25 points
Open topped free
Flyer 25 points
Shrouded 30 points
Two of the above gun 30 points

60 points

Tau Small Flyer
9 all around -25 points
Open Topped free
flyer 25 points
Skimmer 20 points
Shrouded 30 points
Two of the above gun 30 points

80 points

So... honestly shrouded isn't super important,
but it is kinda nice to pretend they have survivability.
strip shrouded, and the kroot ship costs literally the guns
it carries.

Which are the scary bit I think. It comes from
flamers being silly cheap. Because they are not supposed
to have torrent. Mathhammer time!
Say the flamers can each only hit 4 models, which is on the really
conservative side. 3 wounds, at least one 6 means a rend.
Two of these bad boys will kill 2 terminators on average per shooting phase...
for 30 points.

You can also double down on survivability and take stealth...
but that is a waste. You can just jink for your 2+ cover save.
If it draws fire after one round of shooting, it has mades its points back.

Now for a heavier version. We don't like the sunshark, we want
to kill all of the infantry.


Tau Medium Flyer
9 all around -25 points
Open Topped free
flyer 30 points
Skimmer 20 points
Shrouded 30 points
four of the above gun 60 points
115 points of death to everything.
Twice the firepower for far more then twice the cost. A much worse version. The kroot version is cheaper, but will also Not be able to hover and spin to finish off whatever needs to just die.


Didn't see any rules for squadrons, but I could definitely see the first version In a farsight army, taking far more detachments then anyone should.

Also, if you want to conserve points, Stealth+agile are 10 points less and basically the same effect as shrouded.

For added hilarity, stick 2 gun drones on a kroot Mark 1 when you are spamming them. 54 points for 2 drones and an added aerial threat.
Dumb thing, If you really are just spamming as many detatchments as possible... The Kroot Mark 1 without shrouded cost exactly as much as the guns it carries... so give it only one gun, and take two for the price of one. Watch your enemies AA be utterly overloaded by 15 point flyers.


Edit:
Now, lets see what the super heavy version would look like.

Tau Super Heavy Flyer
3 extra hull points 100 points
12 all around 40 points
Enclosed free
flyer 40 points
Skimmer 20 points
Shrouded 30 points
Stealth 15 points
Disruption Pods 15 points

Now, the gun issue. We can pile on as many as we want, and we want a lot. The chassis alone costs 260 points, and super heavy status
only matters for firing more then 4 guns... SO! for 350 points we can put 6 flamers on it... a lot of firepower, but not enough.
for 410 points, we can get 10 flamer templates... now we are getting somewhere. For 500 we can take 16 flamers.

16 of the above gun 240 points

500 points

This... is a center piece. If you can get it on the field, it will kill any non-vehicle non-flyer. Might be worth putting a couple missile pods on it for anti-flyer defense.

LordDavenport wrote:
So... I think that flamers really shouldn't be able to take rending.

Flamer 4 points
Underpowered -25%
Shred +50%
Torrent +150%
Poisoned(4+) +25%
Rending +20% after all other additions.

(4+4*.5+4*1.5+4*.25)*1.2-(4*.25)=15 points
(4+2+6+1)*1.2-1=15
So 2 variants of the modified crop duster

Unless I've done it wrong, that comes to 29 points. (below)

Kroot Small Flyer
9 all around -25 points
Open topped free
Flyer 25 points
Shrouded 30 points
Two of the above gun 30 points

60 points

Tau Small Flyer
9 all around -25 points
Open Topped free
flyer 25 points
Skimmer 20 points
Shrouded 30 points
Two of the above gun 30 points

80 points

...
Edit:
Now, lets see what the super heavy version would look like.

Tau Super Heavy Flyer
3 extra hull points 100 points
12 all around 40 points
Enclosed free
flyer 40 points
Skimmer 20 points
Shrouded 30 points
Stealth 15 points
Disruption Pods 15 points

Now, the gun issue. We can pile on as many as we want, and we want a lot. The chassis alone costs 260 points, and super heavy status
only matters for firing more then 4 guns... SO! for 350 points we can put 6 flamers on it... a lot of firepower, but not enough.
for 410 points, we can get 10 flamer templates... now we are getting somewhere. For 500 we can take 16 flamers.

16 of the above gun 240 points

500 points

This... is a center piece. If you can get it on the field, it will kill any non-vehicle non-flyer. Might be worth putting a couple missile pods on it for anti-flyer defense.

Which actually puts these at 88pts, 108pts, and 724pts respectively.
More if you're supposed to add both sides on the side armour (I'm waiting for clarification on this, but I think you don't).

Ond angel is right with the weapon cost system, and no, you only add side armor once.

If you jink, you can't fire the flamers, so, if your kroot skimmer does happen to kill 2 terminators( which with 8 hits/6 wounds isn't guarenteed) the terminators stormbolters will either kill it, or make it jink to survive. Thereby neutering the vehicle.

Stealth + agile is only as good as shrouded if you are jinking, don't forget the survivability granted by shrouded+ other cover.

I really appreciate you guys picking apart the rules set, that's why I put the V.D.R. up here on dakka! Thanks, and keep up the good work

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Ond angel is right with the weapon cost system, and no, you only add side armor once.

If you jink, you can't fire the flamers, so, if your kroot skimmer does happen to kill 2 terminators( which with 8 hits/6 wounds isn't guarenteed) the terminators stormbolters will either kill it, or make it jink to survive. Thereby neutering the vehicle.

Stealth + agile is only as good as shrouded if you are jinking, don't forget the survivability granted by shrouded+ other cover.

I really appreciate you guys picking apart the rules set, that's why I put the V.D.R. up here on dakka! Thanks, and keep up the good work

Umm... no, unless you changed the system since you put examples in the PDF, Ord Angel is wrong.
His math works if every upgrade besides underpowered cost 100% more. Because you add all the modifiers together at the end, along with the modified base cost. The only thing I wasn't sure of was when to add the rending 20%. I assumed after you totaled the cost, but it could just as easily mean after you totaled the additions due to modifiers, but before you add in the new base cost.

edit
Also didn't notice that you can take an upgrade multiple times. In that case, 2 more instances of underpowered drops the price to 13. Which drops the SHs cost to 468... which is nearing actually useful.
/edit


It is also a flyer, those terminators shoot 2 shots, hit on a 6, glance on a 5 and pen on a 6. 1/36 to pen, 1/18 to glance. If it dosn't jink... but honestly for the 30ish points it costs absorbing a round of shooting for many things it worth it. So it jinks for a 4+ save. 1/72 to pen, 1/36 to glance. They need to Glances to bring it down. 72 bolter rounds... to take down 30 points worth of flyer. or 15 points if you take the single gun variant. Worth? Worth.

Using actually expansive anti air, like a missile side with VT. Without marklighter support, it hits on 4s(rerolling), glances on 2s, and pens on 3+ with its missile pods, and glances on 4s and pens on 5&6 with its smart missile system. So (1/2+(1/2*1/2))*5/6=5/8 to at least glance with the missile pods. (1/2+(1/2*1/2))*1/2= 3/8 to at least glance. it gets 4 of each so 2 hull points stripped on average. Unless it jinks, wich brings it down to 1.375 hull points lost. Mark lighters make life hard, just assume 1-2 in enough to make this a near certain kill... which is fine for our 30-15 point annoyance.

Since when can you get a flyer cover? They fly... yes you lose survivability if you don't jink... but you only need to jink if they are bringing enough firepower to bring you down. In which case you take it and earn some of your points back by denying their shooting a better target. Nutering the vehicle... for a round... after which it forces them to shoot at it again or enjoy some more flamer.

LordDavenport wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Ond angel is right with the weapon cost system, and no, you only add side armor once.

If you jink, you can't fire the flamers, so, if your kroot skimmer does happen to kill 2 terminators( which with 8 hits/6 wounds isn't guarenteed) the terminators stormbolters will either kill it, or make it jink to survive. Thereby neutering the vehicle.

Stealth + agile is only as good as shrouded if you are jinking, don't forget the survivability granted by shrouded+ other cover.

I really appreciate you guys picking apart the rules set, that's why I put the V.D.R. up here on dakka! Thanks, and keep up the good work

Umm... no, unless you changed the system since you put examples in the PDF, Ord Angel is wrong.
His math works if every upgrade besides underpowered cost 100% more. Because you add all the modifiers together at the end, along with the modified base cost. The only thing I wasn't sure of was when to add the rending 20%. I assumed after you totaled the cost, but it could just as easily mean after you totaled the additions due to modifiers, but before you add in the new base cost.

It is also a flyer, those terminators shoot 2 shots, hit on a 6, glance on a 5 and pen on a 6. 1/36 to pen, 1/18 to glance. If it dosn't jink... but honestly for the 30ish points it costs absorbing a round of shooting for many things it worth it. So it jinks for a 4+ save. 1/72 to pen, 1/36 to glance. They need to Glances to bring it down. 72 bolter rounds... to take down 30 points worth of flyer. or 15 points if you take the single gun variant. Worth? Worth.

Using actually expansive anti air, like a missile side with VT. Without marklighter support, it hits on 4s(rerolling), glances on 2s, and pens on 3+ with its missile pods, and glances on 4s and pens on 5&6 with its smart missile system. So (1/2+(1/2*1/2))*5/6=5/8 to at least glance with the missile pods. (1/2+(1/2*1/2))*1/2= 3/8 to at least glance. it gets 4 of each so 2 hull points stripped on average. Unless it jinks, wich brings it down to 1.375 hull points lost. Mark lighters make life hard, just assume 1-2 in enough to make this a near certain kill... which is fine for our 30-15 point annoyance.

Since when can you get a flyer cover? They fly... yes you lose survivability if you don't jink... but you only need to jink if they are bringing enough firepower to bring you down. In which case you take it and earn some of your points back by denying their shooting a better target. Nutering the vehicle... for a round... after which it forces them to shoot at it again or enjoy some more flamer.

I would like to apologize to you, you're Right. The flamers you made would stomp anything without an armor value, but would die imediatly to a Quadgun turret or any other flyer pointed at them. I will be removing the rending option from flamers in the next update thanks for taking the time to show me!

Edit: I was running off of 4-5 hours of sleep and feeding a baby when I first read these posts, so again, I apologize for my failed attempt at math.

It is more an issue that flamers cost so little and the upgrades are percentage based. Fleshbane flamers cost 8 points, 10 with shred or twinlinking. and oh god I did mess up my math.
Underpowered is -50%... 50 $%#^ percent. so actually the flamer costs 10 points.... meaning the SH costs 420 points. Still way to much, but getting better.

edit: I am unclear, is the 1+1 in the attacks line for all the races supposed to mean they have 1 attack base +1 for each extra weapon? Or is it supposed to mean they all have two attacks.

Assuming the former..
Lets try some new flavor of brokenness.
I have a real liking for small vehicles. They are very points efficient.
I think I will build a mini Y'vahra as a Tau CC specialist.

Small Tau Fast Jet Walker, the .
9 all around -25 points
Open topped free
Fast 10 points
Shrouded 30 points
Stealth 15 points
Move Through Cover 10 points
Jet status 20 points
60 points before guns...

So for the armermants, I was thinking something a little weird.
A weapon with two profiles, to test out what that can do.

So first profile is...
Burst cannon 12 points
Armor bane 18 points
Lance 12 points
Gatling 18 points
Long barrel 6 points
Lesser APx2 -6 points
60 points by itself.

Now I thought long and hard about the second profile... but the thing is that gun is stupidly expensive. An actual alternate fire would be nice,
but just using the cheapest option leads to a massive random point break. So, for the sake of being overly OP...
Alternate fire,
Flamer 4 points

Total cost: 60*.75+4*.5=47 points... 13 points of for getting the option to have a flamer... yeah.

Add two of the Depleted uranium burst cannon to the walker for 94 points.

Total cost: 154 points of tank killing insanity. Yes it can't take a punch, it is made to abuse JSJ and cover. In cover it gets a 2+ save. If you are facing down Tau I recomend finding some LOS blocking cover.

WAIT... HOLD THE PRESSES! Flamer the category should be the template category! Flamers are small arms, and cannot purchase most of the offending upgrades. Flamer was a category in 4th ed.

The 1+1 means they have two attacks, as long as you purchase a melee weapon for them, otherwise, they only would have one attack.

Huh... So does purchasing a weapon make that purchased weapon more expensive? Also, given that added weapons add attacks does each one cost more?

You have to pay to weapons per attack, if you add more attacks with the ferocious rule, if you lose the weapon, you still have attacks, just lose the weapon bonus. With multiple weapons, your attacks dwindle as you lose weapons. The main reason to purchase ferocious is to Not have to model a million melee weapons.

As an aside, if at any point you make a decision while making a vehicle with these rules based entirely on trying to save points, that's stretching the reason these rules exist.

The dual profiles seems the most abusable. I would say add an clause that says "If the sum is less then the cost of the most expensive weapon, the weapon costs as much as the most expensive weapon."

That is why I am trying to make the most broken stuff possible... you don't find a systems weakness by building reasonable things.

So, now that we aren't allowed to just get a price break for doing what we were wanting to do any which way...

Burst cannon 12 points
Armor bane 18 points
Lance 12 points
Speed loader 12 points
Twinlinked 6 points
Shred 6 points
Lesser APx2 -6 points
60 points

That is a lot for just one gun... but on the killy front: 8 twinlinked shots re rolling 2d6 to pen...
Say we are trying to pen a 12+ av target. need a 7+ to glance.
3/4 to hit, 7/12+(5/12*7/12)=119/144 chance to glance(yeah... simplifying that is going to be fun).
8 shots means 6 hits, and like 5 glances, and a little over half of those are pens. One will kill a landraider every round... so speed loader is overkill... unless we only take one. but spreading out the points is better.

Now, for a sane alternate firing option.
We want to keep this about the same price as the original gun while adding options. 25% of 60 is 15... so we have about 30 points to play with before we have to really justify ourselves.
We have an excelent antitank weapon, so lets get some anti infantry on it.
I like burst cannons, gattling looks awsome but actually... speed loader+twinlinked is the same price but better... also it is available to more guns... What the hell?

Burst cannon 12 points
Speed loader 12 points
Twinlinked 6 points
Shred 6 points
Poison(4+) 3 points
Long barrel 6 points
Rending 9 points
UnderpoweredX4 -24 points wow underpowered is busted...
Lesser APx2 -6 points

24points.... still makes the other gun cheaper...

Unless we take speedloader off the first gun... then it just keeps the price exactly the same! This is really, really dumb...

So our gun, a dual profile burst cannon.
First profile is Twinlinked Armorbane Lance Shred Burst cannon with two Less AP. 48 points
Second Profile Twinlinked Rending Poison(4+) Shred Speed loader Burst cannon with two Less AP and 4 less strength. 24 points
Total cost per gun: (48*.75+24*.5)=48 points.
Total cost of the better stealth suit: 156 points.
Ability to kill literally any unit within range: Priceless.

The issue is you are taking underpowered to lower the cost and then taking special abilities that ignore the lowered Strength.

I would suggest that underpowered can not be combined with other ablities. Frankly, other than fluff reasons, I don't see the need for underpowered at all. You could probably get rid of it as an option, to eliminate potential abuse.

I originally didn't have it as an option, a friend asked to add it after i was done. (I really should have said no to that one)and speed load is there for big risk, big reward options. You could take it, or another identical weapon. One may get destroyed with a single 5 on the damage table, the other may get to fire less depending on vehicle speed.
I would say, that any small arms fire should just add to the points of the original.
Keep up the good work!

Edit: I will be removing the option for "underpowered" and the option for armor value 9 in the next update. That seems to be the cause of most of the problems. Also, shred doesn't allow rerolls for armor penetratration. I am thinking about removing any options that weaken a weapon actually. If it needs weakened (due to a rediculous combo of abilities) you don't get points back for it.

For underpowered, I would honestly make it -25% to reduce the weapons strength to 1, if it wasn't already 1. It is fluffy for poisoned weapons to be S1, but it shouldn't give you 200% off.

I mean speed loader is silly because it only cares about the base price, not after all of the other modifires... which would actually make it kinda fair.

Say...
Flamer 4 points
Torrent 6 points
Speedloader 4 points

so either two 20 points, or 14 points for one with speed loader. taking another flamer just to provide weapon destroyed protection still leaves you 4 points cheaper.

In my notebook, speed loader is added after everything else, like haywire and Titan killer. That would explain why I was comming up with different math for some of these.

I'll add that to my next edit!

LordDavenport wrote:
For underpowered, I would honestly make it -25% to reduce the weapons strength to 1, if it wasn't already 1. It is fluffy for poisoned weapons to be S1, but it shouldn't give you 200% off.

It's "fluffy" for S1 Poisoned weapons, but "underpowered" it effectively is giving it a point reduction with no reduction in effectiveness.

It's better to eliminate "underpowered" all together, and let people who want the "fluffy" S1, just make their weapon S1 without a point reduction.

When I designed my Necron Knight Titan equivalent, I dropped the I to 2, without a point reduction, because it was fluffy.

Actually if your chance to wound by normal is just as good as your poison chance to wound, you shred. So it comes down to how many points you want to spend on getting that reroll for certain...

Honestly 25% off is mostly to be equal to the poison increase.

LordDavenport wrote:
Actually if your chance to wound by normal is just as good as your poison chance to wound, you shred. So it comes down to how many points you want to spend on getting that reroll for certain...

Honestly 25% off is mostly to be equal to the poison increase.

I'm thinking I am going to be dropping the ability to lower cost period. It seems to be the best way to stop a lot of shenanigans, and the low av, super weapon vehicles were what I was warned against when I first posted this thing.(it was a problem with the original also)

That is going to be my first major change for the system. I'm thinking that vehicle squadrons will be adding a point per hull point for each vehicle that can be added. So a squadron of 5 light vehicles would add 8 points to each vehicle. What do you guys think?

Squadrons actively make the models worse... given that glances/pens can just roll over, and they can only have one target for their own shooting. The only benefit is fielding more in a single slot... Which is nice, but most of the things you would want to spam will be losing more then they get.

Honestly, I wouldn't put a price tag on it, but rather limit the size of the thing that can squad by codex.

like 60 or less for Eldar, DE, SM, CSM, and Necrons.
100 or less for Orks
150 or less for IG.

These numbers are chosen at random, so honestly you could use actual math instead. Mostly I think IG should get bigger squadron enabled vehicles because that is their schtick. everyone else should be at some point below that...

LordDavenport wrote:
Squadrons actively make the models worse... given that glances/pens can just roll over, and they can only have one target for their own shooting. The only benefit is fielding more in a single slot... Which is nice, but most of the things you would want to spam will be losing more then they get.

Honestly, I wouldn't put a price tag on it, but rather limit the size of the thing that can squad by codex.

like 60 or less for Eldar, DE, SM, CSM, and Necrons.
100 or less for Orks
150 or less for IG.

These numbers are chosen at random, so honestly you could use actual math instead. Mostly I think IG should get bigger squadron enabled vehicles because that is their schtick. everyone else should be at some point below that...

That sounds legit, I'll look into any max point totals and see what I come up with. In the system I had in my head, you might spend 6 points per vehicle.
What do you think, in regards to power level, of your various vehicles you've made without the option of av9 and no ability to lower weapon point totals?

Now lets try a broken CSM walker... given the varriety of fixes being tossed around in place. No price reduction... hmm...

CSM Large Walker
13 front, 11 side, 11 rear. 40 points
Open topped 5 points
Fast 20 points
IWND 15 points
Fleet 5 points
Move through cover 10 points
Transport 20 models 20 points
Power fist 15 points
13 extra attacks from ferocious 33 points
169 points.

So... I actually kinda want to see this one in play before I make any comments. It is definitely the mauler fiends big brother.
Load it up with a squad of terminators, and run it at the enemy. rely on pure moxie to get to close range... your 14 attacks should clear your way to your objective through tarpits.


edit: @Lythrandire Biehrellian:Their abuses get covered, and they are now really bad? Well, except the flamer one. That just needs to be treated as small arms except able to take torrent or something.

It forces makers toward chunkier ships, given that you need a goodly amount of fire power to excuse the points you throw at the body.

edit:edit: Ok, forgot walkers can swing PF at initiative. So... yeah... it is one weapon destroyed result from a very bad day... but it can kill most reasonable units before they can swing... and is a transport before anything else.

Can walkers have a transport capacity?

Gorka/morka naught say yes, and one of those "It dosn't say I can't" Moments.
Better question: Is paying 45 points for +1 av to front and rear, 20 unit transport capacity, and 10 ish attacks worth it? Yes, yes it is.

The ferocious rule adds attacks based on the weapon used, so power axe would make the points jump up another 77 points, or, if using the power fist, it would add 154 points. I would go for the axe, personally.
And your walker would only go up about 26 points with just the antitank gun on it, still deleting land raiders.

I'm going to bed folks, goodnight!