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Every time I see "Decimator" written out, in my head I say "you mean Devastator," even though it's just a name for the unit, and not someone who doesn't understand what "decimated" means.

Sorry about the hiatus, the next update will be right after the eldar book drops, as it may change point totals for them.

Also included will be admech weapons and a points drop for ws5 melee weapons. I will also add split fire to the available vehicle upgrades and remove the option for power of the machine spirit for walkers.

I am also going to include the all new type, flying walker! They will move like flying MC's, they are a little harder to take down, but have a much more limited firing arc. Should be fun

Anything else you want me to add?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Sorry about the hiatus, the next update will be right after the eldar book drops, as it may change point totals for them.

Also included will be admech weapons and a points drop for ws5 melee weapons. I will also add split fire to the available vehicle upgrades and remove the option for power of the machine spirit for walkers.

I am also going to include the all new type, flying walker! They will move like flying MC's, they are a little harder to take down, but have a much more limited firing arc. Should be fun

Anything else you want me to add?

Hmm.. off the top of my head:
Grav-guns
Grav-cannons
Venerable (the rule)

Will do! Gotta get my buddy's admech codex for another minute to finish those up. Shouldn't be too hard to do the grave weapons.

15 points for Psychic Pilot seems wonky for vehicles, especially the artillery ones you expect to keep backfield. Perhaps a "max ML 2" restriction, combined with an appropriate set of limits regarding what Disciplines could be used? I would love to have a Leman Russ with in-built Divination for example, that could be combined with Perfect Timing, and being able to reroll to-hit/wound/save...

I'll see what I can do with that. Every mastery level after the first seems to be a set 25 point upgrade now, so that should limit expenditure on that. I think I'll limit the power selection to one table in the BRB also to help keep shenanigans to a minimum.

As an aside, finished the skitarii yesterday

Codex-specific powers should be allowed too, if only to represent stuff like Librarian Dreads or Silver Towers of Tzeentch (much less other potentially entertaining contraptions like a Plague Wagon of Nurgle, etc).

Perhaps a point cost for ML 1 based on accessible disciplines, with Divination and Telepathy costing the most, and Biomancy/Pyromancy costing the least?

I wouldn't go that far with it. A librarian is the same price in all the marine books, all with slightly different choices of powers. In my mind there aren't any vastly superior power trees, just some that have a more generalist approach. Then again, I do love me some pyromancy on occasion

Finished up my update today, but had to leave for work before I could finalize and upload it. I will be posting it tomorrow.

As an aside, I have discovered the key to point valuing the survivability of monstrous creatures! That will be my next project

Is there some sort of scaling point values for the monstrous creature survivability index ?

I've determined that the toughness of MCs is about equal to an armor value 4.5 higher than it. So a toughness 8 mc is somewhere in between the survivability of av 12 and av 13 depending on the armor save it is packing. I have started a pricing algorithm, and have thus far successfully created the wraithlord and almost finished a carnifex. Shouldn't be long now

Edit: V6 is uploaded!

That's an interesting theory. I look forward to seeing how it works out.

Change log for V.D.R. 6.0
● Added racial stats for Skitarii
● New Weapons for the Imperium
● Adjusted melee weapon prices & added new melee weapons
● Added new weapon and vehicle upgrades
● A “fun and new” section for things capable of being done with the rules that games workshop hasn’t done yet.

Just a small request on the next version, please remove the colored highlighting on the change notes. It wastes color ink, and makes it difficult to read at all if printed in black and white.

Sorry about that, was trying to make them stand out

I have a question that I couldn't figure out since the table doesn't work on Mega Dreads at all. How many points do you think it would be to give a Mega Dread an additional hull point from 3 to 4. To me based on model size and armor alone there is no way it should have the same number as a Deff Dread that is less than half its size and when it is only marginally smaller than a Gorkanaut which has 5 hull points.

Also I wanted to know. For the Gorkanaut would you just add the 15 points to its cost for Ramshackle Monster?

And one last thing. Your table doesn't account for the armor values of the Mork/Gorkanaut or the Mega Dread Large and Normal respectively who's armor facings add up to 51 and 50 respectively
Please let me know and thanks for the awesome table it works great with everything else!

One thing I made sure of, when i made this update, was that I recognized the existence of vehicles that break the rules. The 'noughts and mega dredd do this, the same way the phantom titan does.

Adding ramshackle monster to the 'naughts should be pretty straight forward, the system allows you to just add things to vehicles if you want to. My personal favorite is trading the points for speed, and +2str ap2 melee weapon for making it a 6hullpoint superheavy with strD melee for an extra 122 points. Making them 367 for the gorkanaught, 352 for the morkanaught.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
One thing I made sure of, when i made this update, was that I recognized the existence of vehicles that break the rules. The 'noughts and mega dredd do this, the same way the phantom titan does.

Adding ramshackle monster to the 'naughts should be pretty straight forward, the system allows you to just add things to vehicles if you want to. My personal favorite is trading the points for speed, and +2str ap2 melee weapon for making it a 6hullpoint superheavy with strD melee for an extra 122 points. Making them 367 for the gorkanaught, 352 for the morkanaught.

Sorry if I came across as rude or insensitive I just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy. Also that custom build is smexy.

That aside I still would really like to know how much an extra hull point on that Mega Dread might cost points wise. Please if you have an estimate let me know!

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
One thing I made sure of, when i made this update, was that I recognized the existence of vehicles that break the rules. The 'noughts and mega dredd do this, the same way the phantom titan does.

Adding ramshackle monster to the 'naughts should be pretty straight forward, the system allows you to just add things to vehicles if you want to. My personal favorite is trading the points for speed, and +2str ap2 melee weapon for making it a 6hullpoint superheavy with strD melee for an extra 122 points. Making them 367 for the gorkanaught, 352 for the morkanaught.

Sorry if I came across as rude or insensitive I just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy. Also that custom build is smexy.

That aside I still would really like to know how much an extra hull point on that Mega Dread might cost points wise. Please if you have an estimate let me know!

Oops, my bad! You weren't rude, i was just explaining the reason. In answer to the question, you would add the difference in points between the "normal" speed category for medium and large vehicles. Probably around 5-10 points. Defense (how hard something is to hurt) is costed seperatly from survivability (how much damage something can take while getting around the battlefield)

In short, your answer is in the speed table


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Just looked, it's 5 points

OK guys, update comming this weekend. Going to add a couple usr's that I somehow missed and update some weapons point totals.

Here's a thing I just discovered! I built the gorkanaught and morkanaught as superheavy vehicles just now, (I also added assault transport to the profile) and it ended up being a straight 40 point upgrade. The reason I found this interesting is when I updated this thing, I made the math as such that building a superheavy would cost an extra 30-40 points. There is a distinct possibility that games workshop costed the 'naughts as superheavies, then decided to drop their status for reasons unknown to most sane people.

This may be the reason these two wonderful vehicles are considered sub par, they are priced as superheavy with none of the perks!


Edit: another thing I noticed, Ork transports pay for assault vehicle. Even with 'are case upgrade they should still be assault!

Honestly, there are times when I think you have put more thought into the point costs than the GW design team does.

Thanks! Been thinking about sending this to them to help out

I've been thinking about adding in some of the superheavy weapons in the next update.

Also, the design work for monstrous creatures has hit a serious bump. There is a discrepancy between units that were originally vehicles and ones that were always monsters, and I have found that that delineation has continued on to other newer units as well. The math is incalculable for me at this time because the variables are different between codexex.

That aside, the math is the same for ALL gargantuan creatures! I will have the points up for those in the "just for fun" section, enjoy

That aside, the math is the same for ALL gargantuan creatures! I will have the points up for those in the "just for fun" section, enjoy

Including the new version of the Eldar Wraithknight ?

I only ask because people on dakka have been complaining about it being undercosted for what it does, since it the first time it was leaked.
If the math plays out for all GC to be the same, that would suggest on the price being deliberate and not just poorly thought out.

I've been through that particular wringer here. The wraithknight is only undercosted because it is a jump gargantuan creature that doesn't actually pay the points for it. If it didn't have that ability, or payed the points for it (brining its total to 355 points) nobody would actually have a complaint.

The reason it seems so cheap is because it specializes in something, no matter what you build it as. Compare it to the new knight gallant in its melee form (@355 where it should be) and you'll see a very similar capability to point ratio. The wraithknight is better because of movement and 1 higher initiative, the gallant has a little pea shooter and the ability to throw monstrous creatures and vehicles it kills. They are damn close at that point value.


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So, while matching out the phantom titan, I had an epiphany. Games workshop made the pulsars On him way more powerful than the other two options by eliminating their old special rules. The phantom D-cannon used to ignore void shields, which would definitely make it worth taking to a superheavy fight. And the sword used to add 3 extra attacks, now it doesn't. For those familiar with my math, that knocked of about 150 points from where it iis at now. Shame to see those kinds of special options get dropped :/

I like this quite a bit. I've always liked this sort of crunchy "make your own" thing, so this is awesome and I've already lost quite a bit of time to it.

I did notice a couple trademark things that seem to be missing for the Necrons;
* Transport abilities; Necron transport abilities lean pretty heavily to the "weird." You've got the Eternity Gate (monolith) and Invasion Beams (Night Scythe) on one hand and then the "regular" transport (ghost ark) also comes with the Repair Barge ability. None of these appear.
* I did not see the Gauss Flux Arc (the new Monolith corner weapon).

A few more questions;
* Are Tesla Spheres supposed to be the Death Spheres from the Nightshroud?
* I did not see the "independent targeting" ability that is critical to the gauss flayers or flux arcs (and the frequency of fixed weapons on Necron vehicles). I assume that ability should be considered included with the price on those weapons, should there be a cost to add it to others?

Anyway, thanks for putting all the work into this. It's pretty awesome.

silentone2k wrote:
I like this quite a bit. I've always liked this sort of crunchy "make your own" thing, so this is awesome and I've already lost quite a bit of time to it.

I did notice a couple trademark things that seem to be missing for the Necrons;
* Transport abilities; Necron transport abilities lean pretty heavily to the "weird." You've got the Eternity Gate (monolith) and Invasion Beams (Night Scythe) on one hand and then the "regular" transport (ghost ark) also comes with the Repair Barge ability. None of these appear.
* I did not see the Gauss Flux Arc (the new Monolith corner weapon).

A few more questions;
* Are Tesla Spheres supposed to be the Death Spheres from the Nightshroud?
* I did not see the "independent targeting" ability that is critical to the gauss flayers or flux arcs (and the frequency of fixed weapons on Necron vehicles). I assume that ability should be considered included with the price on those weapons, should there be a cost to add it to others?

Anyway, thanks for putting all the work into this. It's pretty awesome.

Thanks! Those particular abilities are included in the weapon profile, so I didn't add them. As for the Tesla spheres, those can be found on the two superheavies in the Necron codex. The necrons get a lot of rules for free due to their restricted nature in regards to vehicle construction. The repair, teleportation beams, and infinity gate are actually free for those units, so I didn't add points for them. If you want them, take them

If you are going to have them as "Free" abilities there should be at least a minimum point cost threshold of the vehicle that can have them.

Otherwise someone will try to spam dirt cheap light walker squadrons that repair d6 warriors each.

I am also hesitant to see these being free as a good idea. In the context of the vehicles that currently have them they're pretty benign. But they are all abuseable in the wrong context. A cheap unit with Eternity Gates allows perfect management of your infantry and jump infantry in a way that a comms rely can only dream, providing effectively infinite transport capacity. The invasion beams may be the least dangerous, they serve mostly as an excuse not to need to park a flyer that can't hover to load it up. But it also is something that makes access points unnecessary and also perfectly protect models using that ride.

I don't like the idea of a minimum point cost for the unit. For one thing that sort of thing tends to gum up otherwise elegant units with a bunch of unrelated extras, simply transferring the cost.
I think the point cost for the Invasion Beams should be relative to the transport capacity. Perhaps 1 pt/5 models (rounding up). It's also worth noting that, technically, invasion beams *could* make a vehicle effectively larger on the inside, allowing it more capacity than it would otherwise have.
Meanwhile the Eternity Gate should be... something. I don't even know how to adjust the potential cost of that power.
The repair ability should definitely be a flat cost. As a possible point of reference, a similar ability in that codex is priced at 5 pts.

And question I forgot earlier;
Why no Fortifications for Advanced races? I get the other vehicle-type limitations, but, contrary to GW's efforts, it seems like the galaxy should be lousy with effective bits of Necron Tombs and Eldar monuments.


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As I'm thinking about balance and these powers I think the key phrase there is "because they are so limited in vehicle selection." The problem with something like the VDR is exactly its awesomeness; by its nature it destroys that limitation.

So, not sure how to represent this with mathhammer without letting these otherwise trivial Necron shenanigans run rampant.


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What if the constant is wrong..? unless I'm missing something, every necron vehicle has living metal. What if you've over-costed that? Assuming, for the moment, the value is actually 0 (it's a giveaway), or even that its actual value is the 5 listed for superheavies, that provides more than enough points to pay for varying shenanigans on vehicles but making them costly enough that dumping a bunch on one vehicle or trying to make a bunch of cheap knockoffs to spam an ability is unlikely.

The invasion beams cost would be directly proportional to the size of the vehicle, while the eternity gate would be inversely proportional to speed. Repair barge, Command wave, and Targeting relay should probably be flat cost...


Anyway, thoughts from the peanut gallery.

Well, the teleportation beamers are there because they didnt want to give the flyers hover. The repair feature doesn't work without warriors present, and the infinity gate is there because the monolith is too slow to worry about as a transport, and deep striking it is dangerous. They gave it a little bump in versatility was all. The reason I costed living metal the way I did was it was slightly better than the spirit stones from the eldar.

The limits placed in Necron vehicles is pretty significant. The have to at LEAST be armor 11 all around, anything higher MUST be heavy or superheavy, and they are an "advanced" race, meaning they MUST make walkers or skimmers. That is a lot of limitations, and I've found the more restrictive your hull options are, the cheaper everything becomes. I think it has to do with how easy it is to plan against Necron vehicles on the table, the are slow, and you never need to worry about them throwing the kind of curve balls an Ork mech list, or spacemarine armored spearhead list could throw your way.


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Also, the vdr allows you to make your own fortifications, just use race specific weapons and upgrades! Don't forget, fortifications don't have a faction, therefore don't have to follow the normal race restrictions listed to the right side of the chart

I'm glad people are using this, it makes me feel like I didn't waste my time

I, for one, am very grateful for the effort you have put into this project.

Thanks! I'll be uploading the next update once the rugrats are in bed, should be a fun one!

Oof, was a late night. The update is complete, I'll post it up first thing in the morning. Gonna go eat a bit of crow in the general discussion area, and then iit is off to bed.

Edit: Updated VDR is uploaded!

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Well, the teleportation beamers are there because they didnt want to give the flyers hover. The repair feature doesn't work without warriors present, and the infinity gate is there because the monolith is too slow to worry about as a transport, and deep striking it is dangerous. They gave it a little bump in versatility was all. The reason I costed living metal the way I did was it was slightly better than the spirit stones from the eldar.

The limits placed in Necron vehicles is pretty significant. The have to at LEAST be armor 11 all around, anything higher MUST be heavy or superheavy, and they are an "advanced" race, meaning they MUST make walkers or skimmers. That is a lot of limitations, and I've found the more restrictive your hull options are, the cheaper everything becomes. I think it has to do with how easy it is to plan against Necron vehicles on the table, the are slow, and you never need to worry about them throwing the kind of curve balls an Ork mech list, or spacemarine armored spearhead list could throw your way.


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Also, the vdr allows you to make your own fortifications, just use race specific weapons and upgrades! Don't forget, fortifications don't have a faction, therefore don't have to follow the normal race restrictions listed to the right side of the chart

I'm glad people are using this, it makes me feel like I didn't waste my time

I hope that my comments in no way give the impression that I don't appreciate the work you put into this. Obviously I'm enjoying spending time with it, and I find it to be very well done.

I get what you're saying about these things individually giving small bumps to the vehicles they're attached to, especially as they tend to work against type or cover glaring rules oversights (ie; invasion beams being a kludge to un-break the night-scythe when fliers were created). My concern is that a purpose-built vehicle isn't forced to conform to that unless there's a cost or limitation that's structured to force it (thus, tying eternity gate to speed and invasion beams to size). I also get why you costed the Living Metal the way you did, and it's significantly bigger than, say, free searchlights and smoke. I'm just trying to find a way to both allow and limit the shenanigans necron vehicles seem to proliferate. Anyway, I've made my suggestions and will leave this alone.

Fortifications; That's awesome, but I did not understand that from the text. You may want to make it explicit at some point.
Semi-related; Immobile vehicles and advanced races. RAW, these still have to be skimmers/walkers. That doesn't really make sense and slashes the Immobile point break. Also, I'm assuming the required Deep Strike does not need to be purchased separately, and is included.

Anyway, *checks to see if it posted while typing this up* looking forward to the update.