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The extra weapons allowed by the codex fall under the "codex specific upgrades" section of the vehicle upgrades. They get to pile on more weapons because the codex allows them to.

As for the piranhas, I thought they were av10 all around. I'll be sure to change that limitation in the next update

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The extra weapons allowed by the codex fall under the "codex specific upgrades" section of the vehicle upgrades. They get to pile on more weapons because the codex allows them to.

As for the piranhas, I thought they were av10 all around. I'll be sure to change that limitation in the next update

Yeah, they're 11 on the front ^_^

As for the Leman Russes, I'm referring to the fact that they're AV 14 on the front, but the maximum armor for a medium tank is only 13.

Edit: Also, How does Speed Loader affect Rapid Fire weapons?

Two shots at full range, 4 shots at half.

It's to allow people to make things like the bolt gun sponsons on the crusader.

I am considering eliminating the limits to av altogether. There are so many vehicles that are exceptions, and I did it originally to help keep people from making av14 all around small fast skimmers

Thanks for pointing that out. Had several bring up the inability to purchase enough weapons, thought that was where your discrepancy was as well

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Two shots at full range, 4 shots at half.

It's to allow people to make things like the bolt gun sponsons on the crusader.

I am considering eliminating the limits to av altogether. There are so many vehicles that are exceptions, and I did it originally to help keep people from making av14 all around small fast skimmers

Thanks for pointing that out. Had several bring up the inability to purchase enough weapons, thought that was where your discrepancy was as well

I think That would be a good idea. They will be making a fairly expensive skimmer with av14. I would however maybe limit av15. A skimmer with av15 just seems wrong. Av15 should be a rare bird imo. Not everything should have it or have access to it.

Av 15 is going to be limited to super huge formations as it is now, can't have that nonsense running rampant...

 NorseSig wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Two shots at full range, 4 shots at half.

It's to allow people to make things like the bolt gun sponsons on the crusader.

I am considering eliminating the limits to av altogether. There are so many vehicles that are exceptions, and I did it originally to help keep people from making av14 all around small fast skimmers

Thanks for pointing that out. Had several bring up the inability to purchase enough weapons, thought that was where your discrepancy was as well

I think That would be a good idea. They will be making a fairly expensive skimmer with av14. I would however maybe limit av15. A skimmer with av15 just seems wrong. Av15 should be a rare bird imo. Not everything should have it or have access to it.

It would serve to streamline everything to get rid of limits that have lots of exceptions like that but av 14 fast skimmers would be stupid. Maybe apply Av penalties according to unit type? so skimmers pay extra for more av and fast skimmer pay extra extra etc. that way, it could be possible but not really advisable because you would have to pay profusely out of a particular orifice for it.

Except there is an av 14 fast skimmer out there already. (Dark angels, I believe sammael)

Having something pay extra for protection isn't fair because skimmers already pay more for the benefit of being skimmers. Their armor value does nothing for them that it doesn't do for other vehicles.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Except there is an av 14 fast skimmer out there already. (Dark angels, I believe sammael)

Having something pay extra for protection isn't fair because skimmers already pay more for the benefit of being skimmers. Their armor value does nothing for them that it doesn't do for other vehicles.

but (fast) skimmers already have stuff going for them that normal vehicles don't already have. Land raiders for instance are AV 14 all around, which makes them super tough transports. So they get to be tough and have reasonable dakka but are expensive and are normal tracked vehicles. Linearly points costing everything would cause the points gap between a normal vehicle with AV 14 all 'round and a skimmer with AV 14 all 'round to be smaller in proportion to the amount of hull points they have so when you get into land raider territory with 4 HP and more, the hypothetical AV 14 skimmer would displace normal vehicles with similar stats.

Also, sammael is a T5 3+ jetbike character.

He can upgrade to a super land speeder (I thought)

Also, the skimmer version of a land raider would be more expensive, just like a skimmer version of a rhino would be. If the model LOOK like it should be av14 and floats above the ground with giant engines on the back, then there is no reason to not allow someone to build it.

An av14 normal speed vehicle with 4hp is 120 points.

Making it a fast skimmer (with the next update to points) will put it at 155 points.

It gains extra speed, it gains the ability to trade shooting for defense (jink), and gets to ignore terrain. All for the price of an extra drop pod on the table.

 Powerfisting wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Except there is an av 14 fast skimmer out there already. (Dark angels, I believe sammael)

Having something pay extra for protection isn't fair because skimmers already pay more for the benefit of being skimmers. Their armor value does nothing for them that it doesn't do for other vehicles.

but (fast) skimmers already have stuff going for them that normal vehicles don't already have. Land raiders for instance are AV 14 all around, which makes them super tough transports. So they get to be tough and have reasonable dakka but are expensive and are normal tracked vehicles. Linearly points costing everything would cause the points gap between a normal vehicle with AV 14 all 'round and a skimmer with AV 14 all 'round to be smaller in proportion to the amount of hull points they have so when you get into land raider territory with 4 HP and more, the hypothetical AV 14 skimmer would displace normal vehicles with similar stats.

Also, sammael is a T5 3+ jetbike character.

Land Raiders are also terrible.

Which is sad, because making them fast for 5 points more and placing the side sponsons weapons on top would make them pretty boss.

Edit: forgot to add why they would get a 5 point increase

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Which is sad, because making them fast for 5 points more and placing the side sponsons weapons on top would make them pretty boss.

Edit: forgot to add why they would get a 5 point increase

No, they'd still suck. Haywire and D exist, and the vehicle rules still exist. If they move, they only get two good shots, which is unacceptable for the price tag.

Martel732 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Which is sad, because making them fast for 5 points more and placing the side sponsons weapons on top would make them pretty boss.

Edit: forgot to add why they would get a 5 point increase

No, they'd still suck. Haywire and D exist, and the vehicle rules still exist. If they move, they only get two good shots, which is unacceptable for the price tag.

Which is why no one takes godhammers anymore, although I have seen a few lists with redeemers and crusaders,

Haywire is a threat to all vehicles, though, and with land raiders you're paying for protection against S7 or lower weapons on a fairly large transport. D weapons do exist and really have no place in normal 40k (or 40k at all, I'd argue), but it's there and if you want to play the game you have to be ready for them.

 McNinja wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Which is sad, because making them fast for 5 points more and placing the side sponsons weapons on top would make them pretty boss.

Edit: forgot to add why they would get a 5 point increase

No, they'd still suck. Haywire and D exist, and the vehicle rules still exist. If they move, they only get two good shots, which is unacceptable for the price tag.

Which is why no one takes godhammers anymore, although I have seen a few lists with redeemers and crusaders,

Haywire is a threat to all vehicles, though, and with land raiders you're paying for protection against S7 or lower weapons on a fairly large transport. D weapons do exist and really have no place in normal 40k (or 40k at all, I'd argue), but it's there and if you want to play the game you have to be ready for them.

I agree, land raiders just plain suck. The only ones that are any good are ones like the Achilles and the land raiders big brother the Spartan. Mostly because they are either immune to melta or can be made immune. The Achilles is also a thunderfire cannon with room for 2 tech marines and some servitors making it resilient. The spartan actually has really good transport capacity as well as some decent options. Both are probably a little too expensive compared to other options in those points values though. Land raiders themselves are lackijng in transport capacity and firepower and while their mobility is better than a squad of troops it still isn't that impressive.

 NorseSig wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Which is sad, because making them fast for 5 points more and placing the side sponsons weapons on top would make them pretty boss.

Edit: forgot to add why they would get a 5 point increase

No, they'd still suck. Haywire and D exist, and the vehicle rules still exist. If they move, they only get two good shots, which is unacceptable for the price tag.

Which is why no one takes godhammers anymore, although I have seen a few lists with redeemers and crusaders,

Haywire is a threat to all vehicles, though, and with land raiders you're paying for protection against S7 or lower weapons on a fairly large transport. D weapons do exist and really have no place in normal 40k (or 40k at all, I'd argue), but it's there and if you want to play the game you have to be ready for them.

I agree, land raiders just plain suck. The only ones that are any good are ones like the Achilles and the land raiders big brother the Spartan. Mostly because they are either immune to melta or can be made immune. The Achilles is also a thunderfire cannon with room for 2 tech marines and some servitors making it resilient. The spartan actually has really good transport capacity as well as some decent options. Both are probably a little too expensive compared to other options in those points values though. Land raiders themselves are lackijng in transport capacity and firepower and while their mobility is better than a squad of troops it still isn't that impressive.

If we could remove that transport capacity and just stick heavier weapons on it, that'd be great.

On another note, I whipped this thing up in a few minutes.
85 - AV13 all around
15 normal speed
110 Avenger gatling cannon
90 two sponson battle cannons

300 points for two battle cannons and 12 S6 AP3 rending shots at BS4. I'd take it. Alternatively, you could just put twin-linked grav cannons everywhere can call it a day.

The addition of escalating potency weapons to the game has made it interesting. The fact that strD appears to still be the price of str10+30 points (as it was priced in the old vdr) and haywire is only 10 points on most units makes them seem rediculously overpowered.

But what they are is a deterrent. Haywire does nothing if the enemy is, say, footdar. Or if the person you end up playing against is daemons or tyranid. Strength D is only really capable if the enemy happens to bring extremely durable units worthy of their attention.

Their existence is the reason why there is such a wide variety of lists in today's "meta". You can build a list to counter anything, all you opponent needs to do is not have what you built to take on.

It's the reason there is so much hate for eldar, tau, and to a certain extent space marines. These armies are able to field a large enough variety of units that specialise in taking down heavy (D, melta, or grav) or light targets, but are also able to field a filler group of mid threat weapons to mitigate the loss of preferred target. (Those weapons being multi-shot str6-7)

It makes it easier for those armies to deal with all threats outside of excessive overload lists utilising the " spam" of similar units with a singular durability quotient. (Bikes with shrouded, flyers, msu troops, etc.) These particular setups guarantee that at least some of the weapons fired at them will be inefficient.

If you drop the transport capacity on a landraider, that knocks 20-32 points off of them.(depending on the pattern)

Sorry about the delay in updates folks, holidays and making my own tabletop wargame have taken up my time lately.

Should have an update as of next week, and I rebuilt almost every vehicle and monster in the game using this system to see where they would stand if their creation methods were standardised. Should be fun!

Does anyone have any suggestions for changes/ additions they would like to see?

Sorry for the LONG, unplanned hiatus, but Version 4 of the Vehicle & Monstrous Creature Design Rules is up!

It's good to see you are still working on this

Definitely continuing with the project.

Part of my time was spent working on my own game system. It will include a similar unit building system in addition to having core armies available. I wanted to build a quick and easy game that would allow you to use whatever models you want and they will all be speaking the same language

That is an admirable goal.

The closest I've seen to that was Shockforce. It had it's own fiction and factions, but they provided all the math you needed to make your units and factions using whatever models you wanted.

I just looked it up, couldn't find too many specific rules but it appeared to be skirmish style and played as a board game.

Good to know what other games have done something similar!

Edit: I've had several people play playtesting it so far. I have the beta version comming out next week

Latest update posted! Not a huge one, but an update none the less.

Primary change is some point tweaks to weapons and a couple more suggested houserules.

All the work you put into this is appreciated.

Missed your previous comment. SHOCK FORCE was a cool little miniatures game that came out in the 90's. It was a great game, but the fluff depended on the Y2K bug, and Alliance dropped it from it's distribution network before anyone ever really got around to playing it. Aaron Overton, it's creator spun it off into the G.W.A.R. tabletop miniatures game, then SHOCKFORCE 2nd edition. Afterwards he intended to re-release it as WAR ENGINE, a universal tabletop miniatures game with no setting. That never happened, then he wanted to turn it into a fantasy game, then a WWII game, and then he just kind of fell off the map. Found a link to the last free version of War Engine HERE Didn't mean to take this thread off topic, but I was one of the play testers for SHOCKFORCE. I used to demo it at local gaming shops and even wrote a few conversion army lists for 40K armies in SHOCKFORCE for the games newsletter. I just get warm fuzzies thinking about that game.

Did you ever release the Beta Version of your game ? I'd love to check it out.

I can't see transport cost? Am i being blind?

And Orks are missing a few guns found in Raid on Castrel Novell, IA. Mainly supa-skortcha/supa-lobba/supa-kannon

Transport costs are listed in the special rules in the back of the vdr. (It is one point per model, plus an additional point for assault unless the vehicle is open topped) as for the ork weapons that are missing, I didn't have access to those, so couldn't add them...

If you PM their stats and listed cost to me I can add them to the next update!

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Transport costs are listed in the special rules in the back of the vdr. (It is one point per model, plus an additional point for assault unless the vehicle is open topped) as for the ork weapons that are missing, I didn't have access to those, so couldn't add them...

If you PM their stats and listed cost to me I can add them to the next update!

Brill yeah, nice one!

Any other questions/ suggestions?

I've had this thing going a while, need fresh eyes to keep it from stagnating. Last round really helped me balance some things out. If you notice anything, let me know!

(I am actually thinking about creating different classifications of heavy weapons to limit the available upgrades to them. Should help keep the craziness to a minimum but I'm afraid of being too limiting...)

Supa skorcha: 25 points
Supa Lobba: 45 points
Supa cannon: 50 points

For bs 2, add 5 points to Lobba/cannon for grot bs

Some changes comming for necron vehicles in particular. Any of the weapons systems that currently occupy opposite sides of a vehicle will be purchased in pairs for a discounted price instead of buying two.

This should make necron vehicles slightly cheaper while limiting their ability to abuse the amount of shots they currently receive. They will still be more expensive than before, but not AS expensive as they are now.