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Ok so I have a Canoptek Harvest formation added to my army.

It specifies 1 canoptek spyder (p. 93)
The formation has "no restrictions"


Page 93 has the army entry list for Canoptek Spyders

On the options list it includes
"May include up to two additional spyders 50 pts/model"
"Any model may take a gloom prism 10 pts/model"

I go ahead and purchase 2 additional spyders and a gloom prism for the spyder in the formation.

I now have 3 spyders, 1 of which is part of the Canoptek Harvest formation and that will receive the benefits of membership in that formation.


Did I break any rule?

If you say I cannot then why specifically can I not add spyders but add something like a gloom prism? There is a clear chain of permission to add 1-2 spyders.

yes, if you look at the formation it says
"1 Canoptek Spyder"
then 1 unit of scarabs and 1 unit of Wraiths.

It says, 1 spyder not 1 unit, so adding to the unit, would be breaking the formation.

40k-noob wrote:
yes, if you look at the formation it says
"1 Canoptek Spyder"
then 1 unit of scarabs and 1 unit of Wraiths.

It says, 1 spyder not 1 unit, so adding to the unit, would be breaking the formation.

Do you have some rule that indicates that the formation would be broken thusly?

in my scenario 1 canoptek spyder would be part of the formation and the 2 additional spyders would not be.

Those additional spyders are added by the options panel on the army entry list that the formation specifies (page 93)

The formation has "no restrictions"

Again, what rule besides your gut feeling is being broken here?

Is a unit of 3 spiders the same as 1 spider? If not then you don't have that formation

Fragile wrote:
Is a unit of 3 spiders the same as 1 spider? If not then you don't have that formation

I am missing the part where you are quoting a rule.

the unit is composed of 1 canoptek spyder that is part of the formation and 2 additional spyders in the unit that were bought by a formation that has no restrictions and that gives clear access to that option on the army entry list it directly references.

I have a clear chain of permission to do what I am proposing.

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Is a unit of 3 spiders the same as 1 spider? If not then you don't have that formation

I am missing the part where you are quoting a rule.

the unit is composed of 1 canoptek spyder that is part of the formation and 2 additional spyders in the unit.

I have a clear chain of permission to do what I am proposing.

When you add spyders to it then it cease to be :a canoptek spyder" it's that simple.

You do not have access to the army list entry to get the additional spyders since the formation lists one spyder. The army list entry is for one unit of spyders, which by default has one spyder. These are not the same thing.
Additionally, page 118 of the rulebook. 4th paragraph under detachments, in bold:

All units in your army must belong to a detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Is a unit of 3 spiders the same as 1 spider? If not then you don't have that formation

I am missing the part where you are quoting a rule.

the unit is composed of 1 canoptek spyder that is part of the formation and 2 additional spyders in the unit.

I have a clear chain of permission to do what I am proposing.

When you add spyders to it then it cease to be :a canoptek spyder" it's that simple.

Again, what rule are you referencing here?

You seem to say that a formation cannot be built out of a subset of a unit (in this case 1 spyder in a 3 spyder unit)

surely you have rules and more than just a gut feeling here.

You are working off unproven premises that are not in the rules.

I follow the rules before me and I add 2 spyders. No restrictions are on the formation and I have full access to that option.

For the Record, the Wraiths and Scarabs come in Units that are more than one model when first Purchased, and can add more as per their listed upgrade options.

A Spyder comes as 1 Spyder which in its upgrades can add two more spyders to it.

What constitutes a Unit of Wraiths?

What constitutes a Unit of Scarabs?

Why can you add more Wraiths or Scarabs as per upgrades options, where you cannot add more spyders as per upgrade options?

There are no restrictions to this formation explicitly stating that one and only one spyder must be taken for this to be a valid formation.

Where is the permission given explicitly to allow for more than the minimum number of Wraiths or Scarabs in this formation?

Bojazz wrote:
You do not have access to the army list entry to get the additional spyders since the formation lists one spyder. The army list entry is for one unit of spyders, which by default has one spyder. These are not the same thing.
Additionally, page 118 of the rulebook. 4th paragraph under detachments, in bold:

All units in your army must belong to a detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment

The formation specifies page 93 as the army entry list to use. It is that specific.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Why can you add more Wraiths or Scarabs as per upgrades options, where you cannot add more spyders as per upgrade options?

Because the formation specifies "One Spyder". It also lists "One unit of Wraiths" and "One unit of Scarabs". If it tells you to take an entire unit, then it doesn't matter how many you have so long as it is a legal unit. If it tells you to specifically take one spyder, then you may only take one spyder. not three spyders.

Bojazz wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Why can you add more Wraiths or Scarabs as per upgrades options, where you cannot add more spyders as per upgrade options?

Because the formation specifies "One Spyder". It also lists "One unit of Wraiths" and "One unit of Scarabs". If it tells you to take an entire unit, then it doesn't matter how many you have so long as it is a legal unit. If it tells you to specifically take one spyder, then you may only take one spyder. not three spyders.

It tells me to use the army list entry on page 93

It also says there are no restrictions on the formation

go to page 93 and read the options. What do you see?

Col_impact, you say that you can have two spyders in your unit that do not belong to any detachment. How is this the case? Either the unit belongs to the formation detachment, and is thusly breaking a rule for having too many spyders, or it does not belong to the detachment, and is breaking the rule i quoted on page 118. There is no "part of a unit not belonging to a detachment" permission that i can find anywhere.

As per formations on page 121 "BRB" "Unless stated other wise, each individual unit maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation."

Also as per the Necron Dex, Page 93. Unit Composition= 1 Canoptek Spyder. Thus there is not a Unit of Spyders Ever as the composition is only one before upgrades are taken for the whole unit.

So one spyder is a Unit.

So yeah I think that works.

Bojazz wrote:
Col_impact, you say that you can have two spyders in your unit that do not belong to any detachment. How is this the case? Either the unit belongs to the formation detachment, and is thusly breaking a rule for having too many spyders, or it does not belong to the detachment, and is breaking the rule i quoted on page 118. There is no "part of a unit not belonging to a detachment" permission that i can find anywhere.

Where do you find the rule that is broken for having too many spyders?

The formation says "no restrictions" not "may only have 1 spyder"

RAW I suppose it is ambiguous enough for you to have 2 or 3 spyders; however in doing so you'd break the 'Adaptive Subroutines' special rule, since it specifically talks about the Spyder. If you have more than one Spyder, which is 'the Spyder'? There's no rules present that allow you to nominate a Spyder, therefore no unit from the formation can ever be within 12" of 'the Spyder' and can never gain RP, Fleet or Shred.

RAI, however it is definitely only 1 Spyder (and that's HIWPI, though feel free to play with more than one spyder and lose the best bonus of the Canoptek Harvest)

The digital version of the codex does not reference page 93. It just says one Canoptek Spyder.

The special rule (Adaptive Subroutines) in the formation mentions "the canoptek spyder from this Formation" several times and not "the unit of canoptek spyders from thie formation". So even that specifies that only one spyder is in the formation. EDIT ^ninja'd

Bladeriker: One Canoptek Spyder is NOT the same as one unit of canoptek spyders. If it said "3 canoptek wraiths" that would not give you permission to take 6 wraiths just because the default size of a unit of wraiths is 3.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
RAW I suppose it is ambiguous enough for you to have 2 or 3 spyders; however in doing so you'd break the 'Adaptive Subroutines' special rule, since it specifically talks about the Spyder. If you have more than one Spyder, which is 'the Spyder'? There's no rules present that allow you to nominate a Spyder, therefore no unit from the formation can ever be within 12" of 'the Spyder' and can never gain RP, Fleet or Shred.

RAI, however it is definitely only 1 Spyder (and that's HIWPI, though feel free to play with more than one spyder and lose the best bonus of the Canoptek Harvest)

You don't need rules to nominate. If one spyder is benefiting from membership in the formation then it has to be played accordingly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bojazz wrote:
The digital version of the codex does not reference page 93. It just says one Canoptek Spyder.

The special rule (Adaptive Subroutines) in the formation mentions "the canoptek spyder from this Formation" several times and not "the unit of canoptek spyders from thie formation". So even that specifies that only one spyder is in the formation. EDIT ^ninja'd

Bladeriker: One Canoptek Spyder is NOT the same as one unit of canoptek spyders. If it said "3 canoptek wraiths" that would not give you permission to take 6 wraiths just because the default size of a unit of wraiths is 3.

The book version specifies page 93 so it is exceedingly clear we are dealing with the canoptek spyder army entry list and clear access to it options and a formation that has "no restrictions"

So tell me, if you have 3 Spyders, which is 'The Spyder'?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So tell me, if you have 3 Spyders, which is 'The Spyder'?

One of them and you have to play accordingly.

Bojazz wrote:
The digital version of the codex does not reference page 93. It just says one Canoptek Spyder.

The special rule (Adaptive Subroutines) in the formation mentions "the canoptek spyder from this Formation" several times and not "the unit of canoptek spyders from thie formation". So even that specifies that only one spyder is in the formation. EDIT ^ninja'd

Bladeriker: One Canoptek Spyder is NOT the same as one unit of canoptek spyders. If it said "3 canoptek wraiths" that would not give you permission to take 6 wraiths just because the default size of a unit of wraiths is 3.

So then 1 spyder is not a unit? but 2-3 are?

If you buy 1 Spyder which fulfills the requirements of this formation is that spyder not a unit ?

If 1 spyder is the unit composition for (Canoptek Spyders) then why are 2/3 spyders not?

 BLADERIKER wrote:
As per formations on page 121 "BRB" "Unless stated other wise, each individual unit maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation."

Also as per the Necron Dex, Page 93. Unit Composition= 1 Canoptek Spyder. Thus there is not a Unit of Spyders Ever as the composition is only one before upgrades are taken for the whole unit.

So one spyder is a Unit.

So yeah I think that works.

The problem with your analysis is that you are quoting the unit's rules. 1 Unit of Canoptek Spyders starts with just 1 is not in question.


What is at the heart of this, is the formation states 1 Canoptek Spyder not 1 unit of Canoptek Spyders.

You will also notice the the Datasheet is titled "Canoptek Spyders" plural not "Spyder" singular as listed in the formation.

The army list entry is called "canoptek spyders" not "canoptek spyder". It consists of one canoptek spyder by default. The formation allows you to take one canoptek spyder. Therefore you have access to the rules to that model, which are on page 93. not the army entry entitled "canoptek spyders".

"canoptek spyders" the army list entry is not the same as "canoptek spyder" the model. Both of these things are found on page 93. The special rule for the formation describes a single spyder. EDIT - DAMNIT PEOPLE STOP NINJAING ME ^

You either have two detachmentless spyders, which is against the rules on page 118, or you have two extra spyders in the formation which you have no permission to take.

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Bojazz wrote:
The digital version of the codex does not reference page 93. It just says one Canoptek Spyder.

The special rule (Adaptive Subroutines) in the formation mentions "the canoptek spyder from this Formation" several times and not "the unit of canoptek spyders from thie formation". So even that specifies that only one spyder is in the formation. EDIT ^ninja'd

Bladeriker: One Canoptek Spyder is NOT the same as one unit of canoptek spyders. If it said "3 canoptek wraiths" that would not give you permission to take 6 wraiths just because the default size of a unit of wraiths is 3.

So then 1 spyder is not a unit? but 2-3 are?

If you buy 1 Spyder which fulfills the requirements of this formation is that spyder not a unit ?

If 1 spyder is the unit composition for (Canoptek Spyders) then why are 2/3 spyders not?

The formation rules in the BRB make it clear that we are always dealing with units

col_impact wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So tell me, if you have 3 Spyders, which is 'The Spyder'?

One of them and you have to play accordingly.

Which one? How do you know? Show me where it says which Spyder is 'the Spyder' or where it says you can nominate a Spyder to be 'the Spyder'.

40k-noob wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
As per formations on page 121 "BRB" "Unless stated other wise, each individual unit maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation."

Also as per the Necron Dex, Page 93. Unit Composition= 1 Canoptek Spyder. Thus there is not a Unit of Spyders Ever as the composition is only one before upgrades are taken for the whole unit.

So one spyder is a Unit.

So yeah I think that works.

The problem with your analysis is that you are quoting the unit's rules. 1 Unit of Canoptek Spyders starts with just 1 is not in question.


What is at the heart of this, is the formation states 1 Canoptek Spyder not 1 unit of Canoptek Spyders.

You will also notice the the Datasheet is titled "Canoptek Spyders" plural not "Spyder" singular as listed in the formation.

1 Canoptek Spyder is 1 Unit of Canoptek Spyders, or is this wrong?

Bojazz wrote:
The army list entry is called "canoptek spyders" not "canoptek spyder". It consists of one canoptek spyder by default. The formation allows you to take one canoptek spyder. Therefore you have access to the rules to that model, which are on page 93. not the army entry entitled "canoptek spyders".

"canoptek spyders" the army list entry is not the same as "canoptek spyder" the model. Both of these things are found on page 93. The special rule for the formation describes a single spyder. EDIT - DAMNIT PEOPLE STOP NINJAING ME ^

You either have two detachmentless spyders, which is against the rules on page 118, or you have two extra spyders in the formation which you have no permission to take.

The formation specifes page 93 and formations deal with units per the rules.

I am following the rules here. It's time for you to start doing the same here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So tell me, if you have 3 Spyders, which is 'The Spyder'?

One of them and you have to play accordingly.

Which one? How do you know? Show me where it says which Spyder is 'the Spyder' or where it says you can nominate a Spyder to be 'the Spyder'.

One spyder will have the formation benefits granted to it like any other buff and like anything else it needs to be kept track of. No special rule needs to implement book keeping.

Lets compare it to another formation from the same codex. The Judicator Batallion. It lists
1 unit of Triarch Stalkers
2 Units of Triarch Praetorians.

Triarch Stalkers come as a single stalker by default, yet this formation specifies that you may take a unit of them. This shows that one spyder means one spyder, and one unit of spyders means one unit of spyders.

Even the wording in the special rule changes to "a stalker from this formation" rather than "THE stalker from this formation". It's glaringly obvious when you're allowed to take more than one of something.

Bojazz wrote:
Lets compare it to another formation from the same codex. The Judicator Batallion. It lists
1 unit of Triarch Stalkers
2 Units of Triarch Praetorians.

Triarch Stalkers come as a single stalker by default, yet this formation specifies that you may take a unit of them. This shows that one spyder means one spyder, and one unit of spyders means one unit of spyders.

What rule do you have to back any of that up? A whole lot of gut feeling rules there.

My book says to use page 93 and the formation rules say to refer to units and their army entry list.

My argument is standing uncontested here because it has ALL THE RULES.

 BLADERIKER wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
As per formations on page 121 "BRB" "Unless stated other wise, each individual unit maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation."

Also as per the Necron Dex, Page 93. Unit Composition= 1 Canoptek Spyder. Thus there is not a Unit of Spyders Ever as the composition is only one before upgrades are taken for the whole unit.

So one spyder is a Unit.

So yeah I think that works.

The problem with your analysis is that you are quoting the unit's rules. 1 Unit of Canoptek Spyders starts with just 1 is not in question.


What is at the heart of this, is the formation states 1 Canoptek Spyder not 1 unit of Canoptek Spyders.

You will also notice the the Datasheet is titled "Canoptek Spyders" plural not "Spyder" singular as listed in the formation.

1 Canoptek Spyder is 1 Unit of Canoptek Spyders, or is this wrong?

Yes and No. A unit of Spyder can consist of just 1 model, true, but so can 3 spyders make up one unit or it could be 3 units or 2 units of 1 and 2 spyders.